To conclude, my biggest reservation with this entire segment of the Marvelous research is that Sif could very well be equally represented by Lyanna. From what we know of Lyanna, she absolutely meets all of the requirements of a shieldmaiden, she has a warrior brother or three that serve as guardian of an enormous structure that separates realms (and perhaps one of those brothers even had the greensight, who knows), and, if you believe the RLJers, she was Rhaegar’s one true love that could never be, ships that pass in the night, star-crossed lovers, etc. And it’s true…those things apply, and could be used as justification for either scenario. Whole picture though, I just feel like Ashara fills the Sif role better, especially when we get into the rest of the story (soon, soon.)
Comments? I would love to hear others' thoughts before I lay out the rest of the snynopsis. It also goes without saying that this ties in with the "Jon at Starfall" thread in the Parentage Essays forum.
First up--the above is spectacular. Will need a bit of time to process it.
But initial impressions--I agree with Ashara. Her dark hair is noted along with her beauty.
Cat thinks that Ned two the sword back to Ashara--not "the family" in general, but to Ashara. As though she's the keeper of the sword. Not a shield maiden per se, perhaps, but a guardian?
Then there's Brienne's tale of Galladon of Morne, so valiant and perfect as a knight that he's given a sword by a goddess (The Maiden). Again--woman as not warrior but guardian of the weaponry.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Cat thinks that Ned two the sword back to Ashara--not "the family" in general, but to Ashara. As though she's the keeper of the sword. Not a shield maiden per se, perhaps, but a guardian?
Then there's Brienne's tale of Galladon of Morne, so valiant and perfect as a knight that he's given a sword by a goddess (The Maiden). Again--woman as not warrior but guardian of the weaponry.
You are picking up what I'm putting down - Arthur is the sword-wielder, Ashara is the sword-keeper. Or something.
If you flip back to the segment I recapped on the Black Knight (also Arthur Dayne), one of his pieces of armory besides the Ebony Blade was the Shield of Night. Now, I have absolutely no idea what that is or if it has/will have a counterpart in ASOIAF, but again, I would not be surprised one iota if Ashara Dayne turns out to also have some critical trinket.
My mind also goes to the oath of the Night's Watch - the part that all suspect to be the 'original' oath, the part that Sam recites at the Black Gate: I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men.
We know about the Sword, the Wall, Dawn, and the Horn, and Fire is still in debate. No one has mentioned the Shield.
The Starks are the guardians of the North....and House Dayne is situated at the other end of Westeros almost exactly in a straight line opposite Winterfell. Seriously, look at the map.
So, my crackpot is that House Dayne carries some of the same responsibilities of the Night's Watch, just on a familial scale...and Ashara Dayne is the Dayne Shieldmaiden tasked with the Shield that guards the realms of Men.
I agree that Ashara fits Sif better than Lyanna specifically because the Daynes have Valerian blood AND the dark hair instead of the blond.
Very fun to read, as always BeautifulBacon!
BBM-Are you certain Daynes have Valyrian blood? Coulda sworn I read that they were an anamoly because they had the eyes, but not the V-blood. Of course, I can provide no canonical backup. Just wondering if anyone else remembers this?
I agree that Ashara fits Sif better than Lyanna specifically because the Daynes have Valerian blood AND the dark hair instead of the blond.
Very fun to read, as always BeautifulBacon!
BBM-Are you certain Daynes have Valyrian blood? Coulda sworn I read that they were an anamoly because they had the eyes, but not the V-blood. Of course, I can provide no canonical backup. Just wondering if anyone else remembers this?
They aren't from Valyria itself. However, it has been speculated that their origin prior to coming to Westeros is from the same civilization from which the Valyrians originated, most likely the Great Empire of the Dawn.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
I agree that Ashara fits Sif better than Lyanna specifically because the Daynes have Valerian blood AND the dark hair instead of the blond.
Very fun to read, as always BeautifulBacon!
BBM-Are you certain Daynes have Valyrian blood? Coulda sworn I read that they were an anamoly because they had the eyes, but not the V-blood. Of course, I can provide no canonical backup. Just wondering if anyone else remembers this?
I'd say there is a good possibility that both the Daynes and Hightowers have a good chance of having Valyrian roots. After all there were dragons in Westeros before Aegon's conquest. Its not improbable that there were Valyrians as well.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
@prettypig , I've been doing the 1000 Worlds readings with PJ and I came upon the following quote from Tuf Voyaging, The Plaguestar that describes some special properties of a space suit. Sound familiar?
It was a spacesuit, of sorts, but it was like no suit any of them had ever seen before, and clearly, whoever had constructed it had not had humans in mind. It towered over all of them, even Tuf; the ornate crest on the great beetling helmet was a good three meters off the deck, and almost brushed the top of the bulkhead. There were four thick double-jointed arms, the bottom two ending in gleaming, serrated pincers; the legs were broad enough to contain the trunks of small trees, and the footpads were great circular saucers. On the broad, hunched back were mounted four huge tanks; a radar antenna sprang from the right shoulder; and everywhere the rigid black metal of which it was constructed was filigreed in strange swirling patterns of red and gold. It stood among them like an armored giant of old.
Kaj Nevis jerked a thumb at the armor. “It’s here,” he said. “So what? How will this monstrosity help us?” He shook his head. “It looks like a piece of junk to me.”
“Please,” said Tuf. “This mechanism, which you so disparage, is an antique rich with history. I acquired this fascinating alien artifact, at no small cost to myself, on Unqi when I passed through that sector. This is a genuine Unquin battlesuit, sir, represented to be of the Hamerün dynasty, which fell some fifteen hundred years ago, long before humanity reached the Unquish stars. It has been fully restored.” “What does it do , Tuf?” asked Rica Dawnstar, always quick to come to the point.
Tuf blinked. “Its capabilities are many and varied. Two strike closest to home in regard to our present quandary. It has an augmented exoskeleton, and when fully charged will magnify the inherent strength of its occupant by a power of ten, approximately. Furthermore, its equipment includes a most excellent cutting laser, engineered to slice through duralloy of a thickness of one-half meter, or of plate steel of significantly greater thickness, when directly applied at zero range. In brief, this ancient battlesuit will be our means of entry into the ancient warship that looms as our only salvation.”
Last Edit: Jan 28, 2016 5:34:13 GMT by Lady Dyanna
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
@prettypig , I've been doing the 1000 Worlds readings with PJ and I came upon the following quote from Tuf Voyaging, The Plaguestar that describes some special properties of a space suit. Sound familiar?
It was a spacesuit, of sorts, but it was like no suit any of them had ever seen before, and clearly, whoever had constructed it had not had humans in mind. It towered over all of them, even Tuf; the ornate crest on the great beetling helmet was a good three meters off the deck, and almost brushed the top of the bulkhead. There were four thick double-jointed arms, the bottom two ending in gleaming, serrated pincers; the legs were broad enough to contain the trunks of small trees, and the footpads were great circular saucers. On the broad, hunched back were mounted four huge tanks; a radar antenna sprang from the right shoulder; and everywhere the rigid black metal of which it was constructed was filigreed in strange swirling patterns of red and gold. It stood among them like an armored giant of old.
Kaj Nevis jerked a thumb at the armor. “It’s here,” he said. “So what? How will this monstrosity help us?” He shook his head. “It looks like a piece of junk to me.”
“Please,” said Tuf. “This mechanism, which you so disparage, is an antique rich with history. I acquired this fascinating alien artifact, at no small cost to myself, on Unqi when I passed through that sector. This is a genuine Unquin battlesuit, sir, represented to be of the Hamerün dynasty, which fell some fifteen hundred years ago, long before humanity reached the Unquish stars. It has been fully restored.” “What does it do , Tuf?” asked Rica Dawnstar, always quick to come to the point.
Tuf blinked. “Its capabilities are many and varied. Two strike closest to home in regard to our present quandary. It has an augmented exoskeleton, and when fully charged will magnify the inherent strength of its occupant by a power of ten, approximately. Furthermore, its equipment includes a most excellent cutting laser, engineered to slice through duralloy of a thickness of one-half meter, or of plate steel of significantly greater thickness, when directly applied at zero range. In brief, this ancient battlesuit will be our means of entry into the ancient warship that looms as our only salvation.”
I have absolutely no doubt at this point that all of GRRM's works include something recycled from the comics he loved as a kid.
Another thing to keep in mind - there are over FORTY THOUSAND characters in the Marvelverse....each with some semblance of origin story and plot arc. The Marvelverse has also been around for almost SEVENTY YEARS of modern human existence. It was already in its teens when George started reading, and George was a diehard fanboy for AT LEAST fifteen years.
Think about that: each comic has between 12-24 issues per year. Even in the Silver Age of Marvel, with probably already 10-15,000 characters in the mix, there were multiple storylines up and running: Avengers, Defenders, Fantastic Four, X-Men, Strange Tales, Journey into Mystery, plus all the individual character spinoffs like Spiderman, Thor, Hulk, etc. I don't know how many were in publication at the time, but I'd say at least 20-25 different ones. Even if you guesstimate low and say there were 20 comics with 12 issues each per year, that's 240 separate-but-intertwined comics EVERY YEAR to follow!! And George followed them all!! For 15+ years!!!
Anyway, my point is that he was obsessed, and that obsession has followed him through his entire writing career. Not surprised even a little bit that pieces of it show up in his other works.
@prettypig , I've been doing the 1000 Worlds readings with PJ and I came upon the following quote from Tuf Voyaging, The Plaguestar that describes some special properties of a space suit. Sound familiar?
I have absolutely no doubt at this point that all of GRRM's works include something recycled from the comics he loved as a kid.
Another thing to keep in mind - there are over FORTY THOUSAND characters in the Marvelverse....each with some semblance of origin story and plot arc. The Marvelverse has also been around for almost SEVENTY YEARS of modern human existence. It was already in its teens when George started reading, and George was a diehard fanboy for AT LEAST fifteen years.
Think about that: each comic has between 12-24 issues per year. Even in the Silver Age of Marvel, with probably already 10-15,000 characters in the mix, there were multiple storylines up and running: Avengers, Defenders, Fantastic Four, X-Men, Strange Tales, Journey into Mystery, plus all the individual character spinoffs like Spiderman, Thor, Hulk, etc. I don't know how many were in publication at the time, but I'd say at least 20-25 different ones. Even if you guesstimate low and say there were 20 comics with 12 issues each per year, that's 240 separate-but-intertwined comics EVERY YEAR to follow!! And George followed them all!! For 15+ years!!!
Anyway, my point is that he was obsessed, and that obsession has followed him through his entire writing career. Not surprised even a little bit that pieces of it show up in his other works.
Definitely. This one just hit me in the face like a brick. As the plotline seems so similar to the black armor in giving extra powers, so to speak, it seemed to lend additional credence to your observations.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
You are picking up what I'm putting down - Arthur is the sword-wielder, Ashara is the sword-keeper. Or something.
If you flip back to the segment I recapped on the Black Knight (also Arthur Dayne), one of his pieces of armory besides the Ebony Blade was the Shield of Night. Now, I have absolutely no idea what that is or if it has/will have a counterpart in ASOIAF, but again, I would not be surprised one iota if Ashara Dayne turns out to also have some critical trinket.
I keep coming back to this idea, too. That the sword is presented when earned by a keeper--very Arthurian.
My mind also goes to the oath of the Night's Watch - the part that all suspect to be the 'original' oath, the part that Sam recites at the Black Gate: I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men.
We know about the Sword, the Wall, Dawn, and the Horn, and Fire is still in debate. No one has mentioned the Shield.
The Starks are the guardians of the North....and House Dayne is situated at the other end of Westeros almost exactly in a straight line opposite Winterfell. Seriously, look at the map.
So, my crackpot is that House Dayne carries some of the same responsibilities of the Night's Watch, just on a familial scale...and Ashara Dayne is the Dayne Shieldmaiden tasked with the Shield that guards the realms of Men.
Too much?
Not too much far as I can see.
I keep thinking the Sword of the Morning office's only being bestowed on a worthy Dayne is a trace of the one who wielded Dawn in the Battle for the Dawn. And that Dawn has been waiting (with various side-projects) for the next "true" wielder in the next Battle. Arthur's qualities, Edric's behavior--they seems like "protectors." They were once kings, but now are protectors--rather like the Starks.
As for the shield: I haven't had time to look thoroughly, but a few things struck me with Jon's POV.
1. "I am the shield that guards" is the phrase Jon repeats on its own. Especially in Dance. And he does so in reference to the Watch being the shield.
"We'll feed the horses. They've served us bravely, poor beasts."
Jon gave his garron the last of the oats and stroked his shaggy mane while Ghost prowled restlessly amongst the rocks. He pulled his gloves on tighter and flexed his burnt fingers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men. Clash, Jon VIII
"I am the sword in the darkness," said the six, and it seemed to Jon as though their voices were changing, growing stronger, more certain. "I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men."
The shield that guards the realms of men. Ghost nuzzled up against his shoulder, and Jon draped an arm around him. He could smell Horse's unwashed breeches, the sweet scent Satin combed into his beard, the rank sharp smell of fear, the giant's overpowering musk. He could hear the beating of his own heart. When he looked across the grove at the woman with her child, the two greybeards, the Hornfoot man with his maimed feet, all he saw was men. Dance, Jon VII
"Are you certain that I have not forgotten some? The ones about the king and his laws, and how we must defend every foot of his land and cling to each ruined castle? How does that part go?" Jon waited for an answer. None came. "I am the shield that guards the realms of men. Those are the words. So tell me, my lord—what are these wildlings, if not men?"
Bowen Marsh opened his mouth. No words came out. A flush crept up his neck. Dance, Jon XI
2. Jon also remembers Ned and Benjen's having a plan for a "shield":
After. The word was a spear thrust. After the war. After the conquest. After the wildlings break the Wall . . .
His lord father had once talked about raising new lords and settling them in the abandoned holdfasts as a shield against wildlings. The plan would have required the Watch to yield back a large part of the Gift, but his uncle Benjen believed the Lord Commander could be won around, so long as the new lordlings paid taxes to Castle Black rather than Winterfell. "It is a dream for spring, though," Lord Eddard had said. "Even the promise of land will not lure men north with a winter coming on."
If winter had come and gone more quickly and spring had followed in its turn, I might have been chosen to hold one of these towers in my father's name. Lord Eddard was dead, however, his brother Benjen lost; the shield they dreamt together would never be forged. "This land belongs to the Watch," Jon said. Her nostrils flared. "No one lives here." Storm, Jon V
So, the shield, in this case, would be Northerners forming a secondary wall of defense just south of the Wall, with holdfasts. A shield of men to protect the realms of men.
I'll need to look harder in the text for other shields--Beric's shield seems to have interesting imagery--but I think there's a chance the enchanted "shield" is a unified humanity.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
So, the shield, in this case, would be Northerners forming a secondary wall of defense just south of the Wall, with holdfasts. A shield of men to protect the realms of men.
I'll need to look harder in the text for other shields--Beric's shield seems to have interesting imagery--but I think there's a chance the enchanted "shield" is a unified humanity.
This really makes a lot of sense. I always equated the shield with the wall itself, but maybe that's too simplistic?
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
I'd say there is a good possibility that both the Daynes and Hightowers have a good chance of having Valyrian roots. After all there were dragons in Westeros before Aegon's conquest. Its not improbable that there were Valyrians as well.
Except that the Daynes seem to predate the Valyrian empire.
They aren't from Valyria itself. However, it has been speculated that their origin prior to coming to Westeros is from the same civilization from which the Valyrians originated, most likely the Great Empire of the Dawn.
Yup!
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
We know about the Sword, the Wall, Dawn, and the Horn, and Fire is still in debate. No one has mentioned the Shield.
Okay--
The only shield I can find that's mentioned as legendary (so far):
"It would be my pleasure, Mother," Joffrey said very formally. He took her by the arm and led her away from the wheelhouse, and Sansa's spirits took flight. A whole day with her prince! She gazed at Joffrey worshipfully. He was so gallant, she thought. The way he had rescued her from Ser Ilyn and the Hound, why, it was almost like the songs, like the time Serwyn of the Mirror Shield saved the Princess Daeryssa from the giants, or Prince Aemon the Dragonknight championing Queen Naerys's honor against evil Ser Morgil's slanders. Game, Sansa I
Bran, in Game, lists Serwyn of the Mirror Shield as being a member of the legendary Kingsguard.
Tyron brings him up in Clash.
Baelish brings him up to Sansa, telling her how he helped persuade Loras to join the KG.
And Tyrion and Dany bring it up in Dance.
But I'm not sure it fits with the Wall. The story is about a Kingsguard who defeats a dragon. Which seems like it might more apply to stopping Dany.
"No doubt. Well, Hugor Hill, answer me this. How did Serwyn of the Mirror Shield slay the dragon Urrax?" "He approached behind his shield. Urrax saw only his own reflection until Serwyn had plunged his spear through his eye." Haldon was unimpressed. "Even Duck knows that tale. Can you tell me the name of the knight who tried the same ploy with Vhagar during the Dance of the Dragons?" Dance, Tyrion III
Then Dany brings up this:
Beside her, Daario Naharis was sleeping as peacefully as a newborn babe. He had a gift for sleeping, he'd boasted, smiling in that cocksure way of his. In the field, he would sleep in the saddle oft as not, he claimed, so as to be well rested should he come upon a battle. Sun or storm, it made no matter. "A warrior who cannot sleep soon has no strength to fight," he said. He was never vexed by nightmares either. When Dany told him how Serwyn of the Mirror Shield was haunted by the ghosts of all the knights he'd killed, Daario only laughed. "If the ones I killed come bother me, I will kill them all again." He has a sellsword's conscience, she realized then. That is to say, none at all. Dance, Daenerys VII
Which sounds like a potential echo of Jaime's seeing the KG under the Rock. But he needed Brienne to back him up.
I will keep looking for a shield, but I'm wondering if the sword and the armor belong at the Wall to fight the magical cold. While the shield is needed in the south, to fight the magical fire.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
BeautifulBacon, thinking about Arthur Dayne being the white knight, and Jon being the black knight, makes me feel pretty confident in making some predictions. Mance is not Rhaegar. Yes, he mirrors him very much because he's Rhaegar's inversion. Rhaegar is the prince to the white knight side of the story, but Mance is the bastard prince to the black knight story, and the black knight must always be a bastard of Winterfell. Think about it. That is why Ygritte was so certain that Mance would take Jon, because they are both bastards of Winterfell. Mance's sidekicks are just inversions to Rhaegar's. I can see Mance as Jon's father, but it could also be someone else. All that needs to happen is for Jon to be a bastard of Winterfell.
The bolded: amen.
But why would Mance need to be a bastard of Winterfell if he's the surrogate father? To the inversions have to be that specific?
This really makes a lot of sense. I always equated the shield with the wall itself, but maybe that's too simplistic?
I'd been seeing the Wall that way, too. Especially since Jon sees the Sword of the Morning as "matching" each other (one must always match one's fighting accessories). And the Night's Watch oath says "watcher on the walls" but makes no mention of the Wall per se (right?). Plus Jon sees himself on the Wall, wearing the armor, with the sword. . . seems like it all fits.
But after that plan of Benjen's and Ned's--I'm wondering if the "gift" wasn't just sustenance. But also a buffer zone. With the next line of defense at the holdfasts. Which are now abandoned--as Jon sees with Ygritte.
And it might fit with voice's warg blocking theory. That when the Targs increased the gift, they broke part of the traditional defense, driving Northmen out of the holdfasts on the edge.
The Nights Watch could be the symbolic man with Winterfell as the shield.
I buy this, too. That Winterfell is line of defense.
And I am once again out of time. *sigh*
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
I have to admit that I'm intrigued by the concept of a MIRROR [since we're talking inversions here] shield, held by a First Man in service to the Old Kings of the Reach who is 'transformed through the telling' into a white knight of the Kingsguard, that ultimately allows its holder to blind and slay a dragon.
I'm going to put this here, as it is relevant to the thread subject and relevant to something else I'm doing. Found it in the SSMs....most interesting. Some of the bolding is for my benefit.
December 26, 2005 The Great Bastards Submitted By: Amoka
[Note: The following continues GRRM's series of descriptions of notable Targaryens (and Targaryen bastards) for Amoka.]
DAEMON BLACKFYRE.
The first and greatest of the Blackfyre Pretenders was the natural son of Daena Targaryen, sister, betrothed, and (briefly) wife to King Baelor the Blessed. Baelor never consummated the marriage, and had it dissolved when he ascended the Iron Throne. Daena and her two sisters were thereafter kept in a comfortable confinement in the Red Keep, in what became known as the Maidenvault. Despite her guards, however, Daena became pregnant and give birth to a strong, healthy son, Daemon. She refused to divulge the name of his father, and thereby became known as "Daena the Defiant." It was not until many years later, when the boy was a squire and bested a score of other squires in a tournament melee, that King Aegon IV (Princess Daena's cousin) acknowledged him as his own, and presented him with Blackfyre, the Valyrian steel blade of Aegon the Conquerer and all the Targaryen kings thereafter.
Targaryen on both side, Daemon had all the hallmarks of his house; the silver-gold hair, the deep purple eyes, fine features of almost inhuman beauty. Daemon's friends and supporters often remarked on how much he resembled Aegon the Conquerer (or at least his likeness, since none of them had ever seen Aegon in the flesh), and indeed there was a certain similarlity, though Daemon wore his hair long, flowing down to his shoulders in a silvery-gold mane. He went clean-shaved, with neither beard nor mustache. Daemon looks every inch the warrior; broad shoulders, big arms, a flat stomach, but he was also a man of considerable charm. I'd give him a warm smile. He made friends easily, and women were drawn to him as well.
As a bastard, Daemon Blackfyre bore the arms of House Targaryen with the colors reversed: a black three-headed dragon on a red field. Thus he became known as "the Black Dragon." His armor would be ornate and costly, all black and red plate, and his warhelm was distinctive, with batlike steel "dragon wings" on the sides.
Rhaegar in his ornate black armor, with the scarlet cloak creating a red 'field' for the Black Dragon.