wiaraewiwiarae,i saw a theory that Illyrio brought Jaqen to the black cells with Varys from Essos and that is where they were coming from when Arya heard them speaking
They could very well be in the black cells voluntarily (I personally think that they were there voluntarily). It's just that their goal wasn't getting out of the city with the NW, but something else entirely. It's just that I've seen people arguing that getting out of the city due to the lockdown was the reason of them getting caught.
My guess is that either: - they were there to kill Rugen/Varys, but failed and Varys chose to get rid of them via Yoren rather than simply killing them for some reason - they were there because Varys/Illyrio hired them
If Varys' death was Jaquen's goal, then Illyrio was probably not responsible. It does seem like Jaqen might have been planted in the cells. Or he simply took the face of someone who was in the cells waiting for judgement. After all, Biter and Rorge both have the feeling of monsters that are better left caged, but Jaquen is quite different that that. Smart, smooth talking, almost poetic; I certainly think he has an agenda that is quite different than the other two. Biter and Rorge also have a history that ties to them to each other, but what we know of Jaqen's behavior doesn't fit. Still, if Jaqen is wearing the face of another man, it's hard to say what that man's personality was like, or what his agenda might have been.
If Illyrio brought Jaqen into the city and cells, then I do wonder what his goal would have been. And was Varys apart of it? Was it to kill someone or was it something else. Illyrio and Varys seem to be a pretty solid team at this point in the story, but they could also be trying to out maneuver each other.
Since we know Jaqen is a faceless man, then we have to wonder, is he on a job for the Faceless men directly, or is his job more indirect, such as he is on assignment as a Faceless man because someone paid him to do a job? We know they are expensive and their cost is prohibitive to many people.
I have an idea or theory that all the events in 288-289 are connected but i am having trouble tying them together , i refer to the death of Willem Darry and the death of Qorgyle and the abdication of Jeor Mormont voice, i think Jon Connington takes in Aegon at this time and Leyton Hightower goes missing . Dany was likely taken out of Dorne in 289 as well . there may be more that i am missing like the Greyjoy Rebellion and the marriage pact signed by Sealord and Oberyn . what do you think? i need someone smarter than me to put the puzzle together but i think i am onto something . markg171, i have been impressed with your work on fake Dany so i would appreciate any assistance you can provide . or if you think of any other events that may be related let me know please
Interesting tie to these things possibly all happening at the same time. If Dany is taken from Westeros at this time, then during the Greyjoy rebellion would be a good time, since the crown would be distracted and not paying close attention to Dorne.
While I agree there is something suspicious about Jeor joining the Night's Watch, I am not sure how long he might have served before he was elected Lord Commander. But we do have examples that it could happen pretty quickly. I think Janos Slynt expected to become Lord Commander and he had joined the watch very soon before the election, so there might be precedent for this. Perhaps Jeor goes to the wall, knowing the position was soon to need to be filled. Does this mean Qorqyle was ill and fading, or that someone was plotting against him? I always assumed Jeor had joined the Night's Watch before Robert's Rebellion, but I don't have much to go on for that, only that he didn't seem to fight in Robert's Rebellion.
Many of these things could tie to a Targaryen restoration plot, except perhaps Jeor Mormont. But Jorah seems to favor Rhaegar, and even though Jorah fought with Ned on the banks of the Trident, I suppose it could be argued that he might have been hoping for a Targaryen restoration at a later point, and perhaps House Mormont does favor the Targaryen's (Maege and her daughters seem to be old god and Stark loyal, but perhaps not Jeor or Jorah, so much). Jeor going to the wall would put him in close proximity to Maester Aemon, and there might be much he could learn from the old man, about Rhaegar's plans and thoughts.
Last Edit: Sept 17, 2018 15:17:52 GMT by stdaga: formatting ... yikes!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
That is, by the way, one of the reasons why "FM intentionally got himself (or themselves) into the black cells because the city was closed and the only way to leave it was to join the NW and doing it as a criminal is less suspicious" argument doesn't work as well as it could 'cause then FM would have to know way ahead about the coup and the city being closed. And if they knew, why not just leave the city before the coup?
Well, why would they know so long in advance? The city was closed from the day after Robert returned dying from his wound. How could they know about that, and therefor Robert's death? There might be more to his death than meets the eye, but methinks that involves a certain one-eyed bastard. The timing on the other hand, seems more random to me.
Thanks.
I do like the one-eyed bastard theory, I admit. And the timing just doesn't work out for them, yes.
Post by canitryto on [abbr data-timestamp="1537189969000" title="Mon Sep 17 2018 07:12:49 GMT-0600 (Mountain Daylight Time)" class="o-timestamp time recent_time"]about an hour ago[/abbr]
wiaraewiwiarae,i saw a theory that Illyrio brought Jaqen to the black cells with Varys from Essos and that is where they were coming from when Arya heard them speaking
They could very well be in the black cells voluntarily (I personally think that they were there voluntarily). It's just that their goal wasn't getting out of the city with the NW, but something else entirely. It's just that I've seen people arguing that getting out of the city due to the lockdown was the reason of them getting caught.
My guess is that either: - they were there to kill Rugen/Varys, but failed and Varys chose to get rid of them via Yoren rather than simply killing them for some reason - they were there because Varys/Illyrio hired them
Thanks.
If Varys' death was Jaquen's goal, then Illyrio was probably not responsible. It does seem like Jaqen might have been planted in the cells. Or he simply took the face of someone who was in the cells waiting for judgement. After all, Biter and Rorge both have the feeling of monsters that are better left caged, but Jaquen is quite different that that. Smart, smooth talking, almost poetic; I certainly think he has an agenda that is quite different than the other two. Biter and Rorge also have a history that ties to them to each other, but what we know of Jaqen's behavior doesn't fit. Still, if Jaqen is wearing the face of another man, it's hard to say what that man's personality was like, or what his agenda might have been.
If Illyrio brought Jaqen into the city and cells, then I do wonder what his goal would have been. And was Varys apart of it? Was it to kill someone or was it something else. Illyrio and Varys seem to be a pretty solid team at this point in the story, but they could also be trying to out maneuver each other.
Since we know Jaqen is a faceless man, then we have to wonder, is he on a job for the Faceless men directly, or is his job more indirect, such as he is on assignment as a Faceless man because someone paid him to do a job? We know they are expensive and their cost is prohibitive to many people.
If Illyrio and/or Varys hired Jaqen, I have no idea, why. The reason that they might is that they (Varys) had access to the black cells and therefore could arrange it. But why would they arrange an imprisonment of a hitman is a question. Theories like killing Ned don't appeal to me personally, it would be much easier for Varys-Rugen to kill him himself with some poison and stage it as death due to his previous wounds being aggravated by thirst and hunger and otherwise awful conditions he was being kept in. Or simply fake a suicide. Besides, in order to kill a prisoner it would be way easier for an FM to impersonate a guard, not another prisoner. That's apart from the fact that Varys probably didn't want Ned to die.
I have also toyed with the idea that Varys planned for Jaqen to go with Ned to the Wall and perhaps whisk him away to Essos on the way? Somewhat similar to what he tried to do with Arya. But I couldn't come up with any reasonable way to explain how being caged with two freaks would help Jaqen in communicating with Ned on the road or even simply kidnapping him (or maybe fake kidnapping him), so that didn't lead anywhere. )))
If the hit was on Varys I would suspect Littlefinger 'cause he could have access to black cells:
The realm had not had a Lord Confessor since the second Daeron, however, and the last Chief Gaoler had been a cloth merchant who purchased the office from Littlefinger during Robert's reign. No doubt he'd had good profit from it for a few years, until he made the error of conspiring with some other rich fools to give the Iron Throne to Stannis. They called themselves "Antler Men," so Joff had nailed antlers to their heads before flinging them over the city walls. So it had been left to Rennifer Longwaters, the head undergaoler with the twisted back who claimed at tedious length to have a "drop of dragon" in him, to unlock the dungeon doors for Jaime and conduct him up the narrow steps inside the walls to the place where Ilyn Payne had lived for fifteen years.
A Feast for Crows - Jaime III
Antler Men were only arrested in ACOK, so that cloth merchant must've been the Chief Gaoler at the time when Jaqen was in the black cells.
"Someone should tell them that Stannis changed his sigil. Then they can be the Hot Hearts." It was no matter for jests, though; it appeared that these Antler Men had armed several hundred followers, to seize the Old Gate once battle was joined, and admit the enemy to the city. Among the names on the list was the master armorer Salloreon. "I suppose this means I won't be getting that terrifying helm with the demon horns," Tyrion complained as he scrawled the order for the man's arrest.
A Clash of Kings - Tyrion XI
Of course Jaqen could just get into the cells the normal way - by committing a crime without anyone's help, but it's still hard to understand what sort of crime would land him there.
To be back to the original conversation, timeline-wise the way for Syrio to be Jaqen is: - to be arrested during the coup and put in the same black cell and take over his face - to beat/flee from Meryn Trant and then to somehow find his way to the black cells via hidden tunnels and take over Jaqen's face But if Syrio was an FM who can take anyone's face, couldn't he take a face of, say, a gold cloak or any random person then? - Seems more productive than taking over a face of a prisoner.
shymaid,i saw a theory that Varys hired Jaqen to kill Bloodraven . what do you think
Welcome to you too!
I think I've seen it, but as it didn't stick in my mind it must mean I found it less convincing. Hard to say as I can't really remember the evidence given, so I'd need to reread it. But my gut is saying no. Mostly as King's Landing seems a weird place (no pun intended) to start looking as Brynden's last known place was at and beyond the Wall.
And then there's the tinfoil (or is it so tinfoil?) that the children and the FM are connected. When Arya first meets the Kindly man, he could be wearing Brynden's face...
"Let us see." The priest lowered his cowl. Beneath he had no face; only a yellowed skull with a few scraps of skin still clinging to the cheeks, and a white worm wriggling from one empty eye socket. "Kiss me, child," he croaked, in a voice as dry and husky as a death rattle. Does he think to scare me? Arya kissed him where his nose should be and plucked the grave worm from his eye to eat it, but it melted like a shadow in her hand.
Arya I, Feast
His body was so skeletal and his clothes so rotted that at first Bran took him for another corpse, a dead man propped up so long that the roots had grown over him, under him, and through him. What skin the corpse lord showed was white, save for a bloody blotch that crept up his neck onto his cheek. His white hair was fine and thin as root hair and long enough to brush against the earthen floor. Roots coiled around his legs like wooden serpents. One burrowed through his breeches into the desiccated flesh of his thigh, to emerge again from his shoulder. A spray of dark red leaves sprouted from his skull, and grey mushrooms spotted his brow. A little skin remained, stretched across his face, tight and hard as white leather, but even that was fraying, and here and there the brown and yellow bone beneath was poking through. "Are you the three-eyed crow?" Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck.
I do like the one-eyed bastard theory, I admit. And the timing just doesn't work out for them, yes.
Haha, me too! But then I'm a hardcore fan of Lord Brynden Rivers, so...
As said above here, there might be a connection between the children, and so Brynden, and the FM. While that could be a point toward Jaqen being in the know, I don't think he has direct contact with Brynden and so wouldn't know.
I have also toyed with the idea that Varys planned for Jaqen to go with Ned to the Wall and perhaps whisk him away to Essos on the way? Somewhat similar to what he tried to do with Arya. But I couldn't come up with any reasonable way to explain how being caged with two freaks would help Jaqen in communicating with Ned on the road or even simply kidnapping him (or maybe fake kidnapping him), so that didn't lead anywhere. )))
Well, that would mirror Bittersteel. After the third rebellion (his second) he was captured, and Aerys I sent him to the Wall. But his ship was stopped on the way and Bittersteel whisked away back to Essos, and more rebellions.
I need a closer read on several more parts before I venture out on what their cause/mission is.
I have also toyed with the idea that Varys planned for Jaqen to go with Ned to the Wall and perhaps whisk him away to Essos on the way? Somewhat similar to what he tried to do with Arya. But I couldn't come up with any reasonable way to explain how being caged with two freaks would help Jaqen in communicating with Ned on the road or even simply kidnapping him (or maybe fake kidnapping him), so that didn't lead anywhere. )))
You might be on to something with the connection to Ned. It does seem the the House of Black and White want's Arya, but perhaps they just wanted a Stark blooded person. So, when they couldn't get Ned, they went after the Stark that they could find and entice.
Another tinfoilish thought you have spawned for me is perhaps Jaqen was meant to take Ned's face on the journey north? Think about the power a faceless man could wield if he was wearing the face of Eddard Stark? Ned would have power, both in the north and at the wall. Immense power and would probably be respected and listened to! You got my wheels turning now...
In either scenario, it seems to me that Jaqen was caged with Rorge and Biter was just a coincidence. I always thought it interesting that two sociopath's like Rorge and Biter were not a threat to Jaqen in that caged wagon, but perhaps Jaqen is scarier that those two were willing to challenge?
Antler Men were only arrested in ACOK, so that cloth merchant must've been the Chief Gaoler at the time when Jaqen was in the black cells.
"Someone should tell them that Stannis changed his sigil. Then they can be the Hot Hearts." It was no matter for jests, though; it appeared that these Antler Men had armed several hundred followers, to seize the Old Gate once battle was joined, and admit the enemy to the city. Among the names on the list was the master armorer Salloreon. "I suppose this means I won't be getting that terrifying helm with the demon horns," Tyrion complained as he scrawled the order for the man's arrest.
A Clash of Kings - Tyrion XI
Of course Jaqen could just get into the cells the normal way - by committing a crime without anyone's help, but it's still hard to understand what sort of crime would land him there.
Gosh! This is very interesting. I have never made this connection with the old chief gaoler being an antler man. That is someone who might have wanted to sneak Ned out of the Black Cells, or at least had the power to do it. Word might have been out that Ned was in support of Stannis' claim! Nice catch!
To be back to the original conversation, timeline-wise the way for Syrio to be Jaqen is: - to be arrested during the coup and put in the same black cell and take over his face - to beat/flee from Meryn Trant and then to somehow find his way to the black cells via hidden tunnels and take over Jaqen's face But if Syrio was an FM who can take anyone's face, couldn't he take a face of, say, a gold cloak or any random person then? - Seems more productive than taking over a face of a prisoner.
I know there is much debate on whether Syrio and Jaqen are the same person. I am not convinced either way. But I do question Syrio's death. We didn't see it or a body, so it's open to speculation. If Syrio and Jaqen are the same faceless man, then it almost makes me think that Arya was the target. After all, we see no exchanges between Syrio and Ned, although GRRM has been a little to vague in explanations about how Ned came to find Syrio and hire him to work with Arya. It could be just a way to become part of Ned's household and have easy access to the Tower of the Hand or the Red Keep! It's a puzzle, for sure.
Great idea's!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
stdaga , What if varys got syrio to take Ned's place at the execution and ned is still alive ? where could he be?
Ah, this idea gives me such warm fuzzies! I love The Ned! I have toyed with all sorts of possibilities that could include Ned's living, but I always go back to GRRM's words on how he viewed that Tolkien should have left Gandolf dead. Not brought back a shiny white version of him, which was a upgrade on the less shiny grey version of Gandolf.
But ... if Ned were alive, he could have been smuggled out of Kings Landing in a barrel or crate. He could still be in Westeros or he could be in Essos. Hell, he could be that other prisoner in the Dreadfort dungeon's, although I really hope not. IF Ned was still alive, I would think he is a prisoner somewhere, because it doesn't seem like him to hide out while the North wages war and his family and home is destroyed.
But, does a faceless man willingly give up his life in another's place? I find this hard to fathom. There training is long and exacting. So, I see it more likely that IF it wasn't actually Ned on the steps of Baelor, then we have more of a Rattleshirt glamoured as Mance situation in play. Someone had to die in Ned's place, but it doesn't make sense that a faceless man with all the training would do so. It's takes almost a fortune to get a faceless man to kill someone, what the heck is the price for a faceless man to die in someone's place.
As much as I wish Ned to still be alive, and I would enjoy that (I think), we do have Ned visiting Bran and Rickon in their dreams and apparently in the crypts after his death (supposed death) and it seems his soul would be tied to the crypts only in death, not in life. Of course, those dreams could have been planted and not be based in the reality of Ned's death. We also have Ned seeming to speak to Arya through the weirwood at Harrenhal, which indicates a true death to me. Rather like Varamyr is now part of the tree's. Except, how can Ned, who apparently had no training as a greenseer, talk to living people through the tree's. Is this only Arya's imagination, or Bloodraven or Bran planting thoughts in her head via the weirnet.
I am more likely to think that Ned's body died but his spirit is alive and well. If it wasn't for these hints that Ned is in the weirnet, I would easily contemplate the idea that Ned's essence has lived on in something (besides Ice). Ilyn Payne's behavior is quite unusual at times and I wonder if a skinchanger (Ned) could live in him? Good thing I am in the crack pot thread! Ilyn Payne was there and swung the sword that killed Ned (supposedly). Sansa has always had an odd feeling about Ilyn Payne, and while she is a pansy and he is creepy, her thoughts seem out of proportion. She fears Ilyn will take her head (just as he took her father's) but Ilyn has no reason to harm her. I know Sansa lived in fear of death under Cersei and Joffrey, but it would be stupid of them to kill her, as she is a great asset as a hostage. Still, one argument against Ned living in Ilyn's body is that Ilyn Payne stood by and watched Sansa be beaten and terrorized by Joffrey's guards. Would a father allow this? Probably not, but Ned might also realize that Sansa betrayed him to Cersei. Still, I find it hard to believe that if Ned was living in Ilyn he could not figure out how to communicate some how.
But, if Ned was saved from death, who would be behind it? Varys? Petyr? We are also told that Doran Martell is a plotter, and there are implications about the Hightowers, too! Whoever would have been behind it, would probably have him now. I can chase this idea around in a circle all day and never come to a decent conclusion. But I think that GRRM is an author that would be capable of pulling this of, I just am unsure if he will because of his words on Tolkien's choices with Gandolf.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
stdaga , i love this place . i get ridiculed on Reddit for my foil
It's very open over here, and no one seems to want to ridicule or shoot anyone down. I don't have a reddit account but I do look at posts over there. And I have personally felt the heat on the Westeros boards, as most places over there don't welcome tinfoil, either. The Heresy posts are the most open minded, I have found.
I am glad you are enjoying this board. I really do too! Very welcome, very open to ideas, and even if people disagree, they are polite about it!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
I know there is much debate on whether Syrio and Jaqen are the same person. I am not convinced either way. But I do question Syrio's death. We didn't see it or a body, so it's open to speculation. If Syrio and Jaqen are the same faceless man, then it almost makes me think that Arya was the target. After all, we see no exchanges between Syrio and Ned, although GRRM has been a little to vague in explanations about how Ned came to find Syrio and hire him to work with Arya. It could be just a way to become part of Ned's household and have easy access to the Tower of the Hand or the Red Keep! It's a puzzle, for sure.
i always thought they were the same person when reading about what both say to Aria and their physical abilities.
Indeed, there was no corpse to be found, there was no funeral, no silent sisters, no nothing: therefore Syrio could not be dead.
How Ned came to find Syrio as a sword master so quickly has to be part of the clues. He surely could not have come from Essos for the assignment, no time for that. So he must have already been in KL.
And what was he doing there?
Who brought him there? someone wanting to cause trouble, say by assassinating Ned? From the time Robert left KL for WF and the time Ned arrived in KL there may have been time for someone to get him from Essos.
Unless he was already there, a Faceless Man on some other mission.
So who would have put him up for the Arya job? one of the schemers ie Varys or Baelish most likely. Either would have access to funds.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
stdaga , someone just called me a RLJ birther on reddit
Haha! That's a crazy board over there, with all the up voting and down voting! It's easy to make bold statements when people can hide behind an avatar. The internet is interesting like that, how it can increase a person's boldness and allow them to say things to people that you would rarely say to their faces.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.