stdaga, i asked why we don't question Dany's birth and people get so defensive about her being the Mad King's kid is her croos to bear so i called markg171 for backup LOL
I know there is much debate on whether Syrio and Jaqen are the same person. I am not convinced either way. But I do question Syrio's death. We didn't see it or a body, so it's open to speculation. If Syrio and Jaqen are the same faceless man, then it almost makes me think that Arya was the target. After all, we see no exchanges between Syrio and Ned, although GRRM has been a little to vague in explanations about how Ned came to find Syrio and hire him to work with Arya. It could be just a way to become part of Ned's household and have easy access to the Tower of the Hand or the Red Keep! It's a puzzle, for sure.
i always thought they were the same person when reading about what both say to Aria and their physical abilities.
Indeed, there was no corpse to be found, there was no funeral, no silent sisters, no nothing: therefore Syrio could not be dead.
How Ned came to find Syrio as a sword master so quickly has to be part of the clues. He surely could not have come from Essos for the assignment, no time for that. So he must have already been in KL.
And what was he doing there?
Who brought him there? someone wanting to cause trouble, say by assassinating Ned? From the time Robert left KL for WF and the time Ned arrived in KL there may have been time for someone to get him from Essos.
Unless he was already there, a Faceless Man on some other mission.
So who would have put him up for the Arya job? one of the schemers ie Varys or Baelish most likely. Either would have access to funds.
You have probably thought about this mystery more than I have. However, if Syrio/Jaqen was intended to kill Ned, then it seems like there have been missed opportunities. Ned hired Syrio, so that is opportunity number one, and I think the text implies that Ned talked to Syrio again, or that he was going to, after Ned seen Arya covered in bruises and scratches. So, I am not sure if I think Ned was the target. Unless his death wasn't the goal?
As to who might have hired a faceless man, it's hard to say. As you point out, such a person would need money. Or have access to something invaluable to pay the faceless men. I don't know if "the price" always translates into a high monetary value, just that it is something valuable to the person who wants to hire the faceless men.
The timeline is so havey cavey I have no idea how long it might take someone to hire a FM and then get them to Westeros. But Cat beat Ned and the girls to KL by taking a ship and it seems she left Winterfell much later than they did, and Braavos is actually closer to KL than White Harbor is. I don't know about length of time traveling across the Narrow Sea as opposed to down it, but I would bet it's not a huge difference. We also have that odd storm that Cat and Rodrik suffer through on the Storm Dancer, which might have slowed Cat's journey down.
Do ravens carry messages across the Narrow Sea? That would speed things up, if they could.
I looked a bit into Arya's journey from Saltpans to Braavos, but I can't determine a specific travel time. But something that struck me is how Arya still didn't want to go to Braavos, she wanted to go to Jon on the wall, but the captain ignored her. And at this point, she feels like all her family (except Jon) is dead and her home of Winterfell is destroyed. So, she is nearly hopeless about her future at this point. If the faceless men had wanted her from the start, perhaps she would not have went with them or stayed in the House of Black and White until she was emotionally at this point in her life. She really doesn't feel she has any where else to go, or very few options. She still thinks of Jon and she can't let go of Needle. Those two things might be what saves her from a life of being a FM, her connection to home.
Now, I suppose it could be argued that a FM might seek a job in Ned's household just to have access to the Red Keep. If this is the case, the amount of people that FM was possibly supposed to kill could be almost endless. But, if the FM chooses to leave KL to go to the Wall, this narrows down things, in some ways, since none of our big players in KL ended up dead at this time. Varys, Petyr, Cersei, Joffrey, (the people I would want to kill) are still alive. But Robert is dead! Maybe Robert was the goal all along! Can a FM wear the face of a boar? But then why come back to the city of Robert's death (in the forest) was the goal.
Yoren's death is something that happened while traveling to the wall. But why would Yoren be the goal? Unless that was just a different face to wear while on a journey. A FM wearing Yoren's face would have access to many castles on the way north, as well as to members of the Night's Watch, also!
I really have no idea. Again, I am like a dog chasing it's tail around in a circle!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
stdaga , i asked why we don't question Dany's birth and people get so defensive about her being the Mad King's kid is her croos to bear so i called markg171 for backup LOL
Hahaha! Yup! Well, there is a very shaky house of cards built on Jon's birth being at the toj after the rebellion ended and Dany's birth being 8-9 moons later, and if that house of cards were to tremble and fall, then a whole lot of theories died an ugly death. People are very, very protective and defensive about this. I see it on the Westeros boards OFTEN!!!
Yes, markg171 is a great resource for Dany's backstory, or the discrepancies in it. I am sure he has also felt the burn when he questioned such "accepted" things such as the time and place of Dany's birth on Dragonstone nine months (or so) after the Sack!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
stdaga , i would sooner entrust a child to a pit viper than to Tywin . Any hidden baby swap possibilities?
You and Ned, both!
Lot's of possibilities for baby swaps. One person I don't suspect was swapped is Jon Snow. Nope, he is who he is! But there are lot's of other options. My recent-ish tinfoil is that Princess Rhaenys is Arianne Martel and Prince Aegon is Samwell Tarly! I am certain Reddit and Westeros would not approve!
I swear I wasn't drinking when I came up this these ideas!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
stdaga , i have seen the Samwell as Aegon theory before . something about Randall never calling him his son
There are several odd things about Sam and his upbringing. Of course, for over a year I have been working on this parentage reread and so I have started to perhaps see hints about children and parents in everything, and that might be a mistake on my part. Still, for now, I am unwilling to set it aside.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
As to who might have hired a faceless man, it's hard to say. As you point out, such a person would need money. Or have access to something invaluable to pay the faceless men. I don't know if "the price" always translates into a high monetary value, just that it is something valuable to the person who wants to hire the faceless men.
something valuable: i recall some discussions about dragon eggs - related to Euron - or ancient books in the Citadel.
I like that last one.
Let's say that Jaquen was on his way to the Citadel on his dragon book mission when the opportunity turned up to infiltrate the Stark family. Syrio might just have been a sword master resident in KL, ripe for Jaquar to impersonate. This episode would have required KL inside help and Varys/Ruger is my prime suspect.
With the demise of Ned and the departure of Arya with Yoren and the Watch, Jaquar found a way to tag along. Now it is a very long way to the Wall and he would have been confident to be able to escape his 'chaine up ' predicament somehow.
Eventually, after having given the coin to Arya, a very close step to recruitment, Jaquen went to Oldtown to complete his original mission.
And you are right, between ravens and good ships, it would not take hat long to come from Braavos, given it is the right time of the year.
this story seems to affect the best of us in strange powerful ways...
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
Hahaha! Yup! Well, there is a very shaky house of cards built on Jon's birth being at the toj after the rebellion ended and Dany's birth being 8-9 moons later, and if that house of cards were to tremble and fall, then a whole lot of theories died an ugly death. People are very, very protective and defensive about this. I see it on the Westeros boards OFTEN!!!
Lot's of possibilities for baby swaps. One person I don't suspect was swapped is Jon Snow. Nope, he is who he is! But there are lot's of other options. My recent-ish tinfoil is that Princess Rhaenys is Arianne Martel and Prince Aegon is Samwell Tarly! I am certain Reddit and Westeros would not approve!
I swear I wasn't drinking when I came up this these ideas!
Going to need prove that your weren't drunk or otherwise impaired when coming with these... JK
Rhaenys is Arianne is an interesting idea. More of a fan of my false Quentyn theory.
As far as Aegon being Samwell no fooking way but I will be interested in seeing how you came to this idea.
Let's say that Jaquen was on his way to the Citadel on his dragon book mission when the opportunity turned up to infiltrate the Stark family. Syrio might just have been a sword master resident in KL, ripe for Jaquar to impersonate. This episode would have required KL inside help and Varys/Ruger is my prime suspect.
With the demise of Ned and the departure of Arya with Yoren and the Watch, Jaquar found a way to tag along. Now it is a very long way to the Wall and he would have been confident to be able to escape his 'chaine up ' predicament somehow.
Eventually, after having given the coin to Arya, a very close step to recruitment, Jaquen went to Oldtown to complete his original mission.
The problem is why would a Braavosi sword master and a former First Sword be hanging out in KL? The interesting thing to note is that he was recommended by Vayne Poole, Jeyne's dad. I wonder why he was chosen or so highly recommended.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
something valuable: i recall some discussions about dragon eggs - related to Euron - or ancient books in the Citadel.
I like that last one.
Let's say that Jaquen was on his way to the Citadel on his dragon book mission when the opportunity turned up to infiltrate the Stark family. Syrio might just have been a sword master resident in KL, ripe for Jaquar to impersonate. This episode would have required KL inside help and Varys/Ruger is my prime suspect.
With the demise of Ned and the departure of Arya with Yoren and the Watch, Jaquar found a way to tag along. Now it is a very long way to the Wall and he would have been confident to be able to escape his 'chaine up ' predicament somehow.
Eventually, after having given the coin to Arya, a very close step to recruitment, Jaquen went to Oldtown to complete his original mission.
And you are right, between ravens and good ships, it would not take hat long to come from Braavos, given it is the right time of the year.
I wonder how much leeway that FM are given to go a bit rogue on their missions? If the ultimate goal was something from the Citadel, why even stop in KL? Much less deviate from your plan? Unless there are multiple steps to the plan. I haven't read the Mercy chapter's yet, but I suppose that might hint at how much a FM (or FM trainee) is allowed to stray from the goal. We see hints of this with Arya already?
Another thought I have had about Jaqen is that he spends a fair amount of time at Harrenhal. He has skills and could have left there way before he did and head to Oldtown, if that is where is mission truly is, so it seems part of his goal in any case, either lies at Harrenhal, or lie with someone or something at Harrenhal.
Perhaps some of this comes down to plot for GRRM and he just moved Jaqen around to where he needed him, regardless of overall plot? I wonder about this stuff at times, when I have a hard time making any sort of logical sense of some of the moves of our characters.
As much as I don't want this to be true, why am I thinking there's a SSM that confirms Syrio's death?
I have never seen one, but then, I have never looked for one on Syrio either. But if Syrio's real self is dead, that would still leave his face to be worn by a FM, perhaps. GRRM is sometimes crafty in his answers, a bit misleading. I will have to look for this information. The SSM's seem to have been cleaned up recently. Purged, is how I like to refer to them. I swear there used to be more information than there is now.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Going to need prove that your weren't drunk or otherwise impaired when coming with these... JK
I swear! But that's about the best I can do! Well, impaired perhaps by my several falls into rabbit holes that might have lead to minor head injuries ...
Rhaenys is Arianne is an interesting idea. More of a fan of my false Quentyn theory.
Well, it would be interesting if the child that survived was Rhaenys and not Aegon, but GRRM in early SSM's makes it sounds like Rhaenys did indeed die, so I am probably just wasting a bit of time on this one. It's that damn Arianne quote, "Arianne crawled from the bed, weak as a kitten" that connects Arianne to Rhaenys who was said to be fond of kittens, especially her black Balarion, and the fact that Rhaenys was said to have been dragged from under Rhaegar's bed with Amory Lorch killed her. It's very possible this is just GRRM trolling a bit and I swallowed the hook completely!
As far as Aegon being Samwell no fooking way but I will be interested in seeing how you came to this idea.
Bahaha! It's VERY unlikely, I admit...
It's a whole series of little things, but I do think the parentage reread has infected my brain, and I see so many possibilities it's almost ridiculous!
But Sam- well I can't think of it all now, but his age could fit, as I think he is about a year older than Jon. Besides being fat, his physical description is quite lacking. No hair color noted in the text and eyes that are referred to as "pale". (I have also thought to link to Lyanna through contact with Roose the Raper, too!). Viserys eyes are noted to be "pale" lilac. Of course, this doesn't mean Sam's eyes are lilac too, but it's an odd description, or lack of, for such an important character.** Sam is also quite booksmart, like Rhaegar, likes music, like Rhaegar, likes to sing, like Rhaegar, can be taught to fight with the right encouragement, but it's not his first choice, like Rhaegar. There are odd comments about Sam sleeping with his sisters, which sounds very Targaryen-ish. He is not one bit turned off by the incest that Gilly is a product of and eventually produced, which could indicate some Targaryen blood. Sam's deep connection in the text to Maester Aemon; Sam spends far more time with Aemon than Jon does, by gosh, and Aemon is quite a mentor to Samwell. Hints about Sam and Gilly getting drunk on "fire" (rum) on the Cinnamon Wind and how Sam thinks that's a "drink for dragons". It is through Sam's story that we hear some of Summerhall and the Prince that was Promised.
I have found a few other hints on the text (or what I think are hints), but most of them are scattered through the parentage reread, and I can't remember them all right now! I should organize them, but organization is not my strong point! Of course, I am not sure how many "hidden princes" this story is going to have, so this might be another area where I am making something out of nothing.
**As to pale eyes, this description is used early in often in the text, and I am not sure how it all could be connected. Viserys, the Catspaw, Maester Pycelle, Old Nan, Barristan Selmy, Ilyn Payne. Of all of these, Viserys' eyes are pale lilac and Selmy's are pale blue. The rest do not have a color descriptor, which does make me think of Roose and Ramsay. It all might mean nothing, of course.
The problem is why would a Braavosi sword master and a former First Sword be hanging out in KL? The interesting thing to note is that he was recommended by Vayne Poole, Jeyne's dad. I wonder why he was chosen or so highly recommended.
I did not remember this detail about Vayon Poole, but he was as fresh to KL just as Ned was, so perhaps that information was given to Poole on purpose, by someone who wanted/needed Syrio to be in Ned's household. That really doesn't narrow things down, since several people are plotters and have spies planted all around the Red Keep.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.