Night's Queen: "tempts" the Night's King from his post and purpose. He gives her his "seed." He eventually is brought down by the Stark in Winterfell.
Beric: Sent out by the Stark in Winterfell to avenge Cat's family and restore order. Falls into the trap meant for the Stark in Winterfell. Revived by friend. Is brought down by his loyalty to the Starks and grief over Cat--raises her as new, blue-eyed Undead Queen of the Brotherhood without Banners--bound to her by Thoros' sorcery.
Allyria: Undead Beric's intended bride--a bride of fire. Her family servant fed the seed of Winterfell (Jon). She and Beric invert the Night's King: Beric's Undead and lured away from his bride by the Starks (on duty). He raises the blue-eyed Cat, forsaking the (likely) purple-eyed Allyria. And Beric is a fire wight, vs. a cold Other.
Potential Implications?
Could Allyria eventually bring about someone's downfall (like the Night's Queen and even Cat)--but a necessary or even good downfall? Taking out Darkstar? Darkstar being like the Night's King but taken down by the Bride of Undead Fire?
If Allyria is Ashara's daughter by Ned: a bride of undead fire, descended from a Stark. Is she bringing about the inverse of the Night's King? The rise (not fall) of a leader who won't forsake his post?
Any other ideas? Mockery? General thoughts?
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
HA! You don't need Jojen-paste. I just need clarity. And maybe an assist from Anath not to muck up her ideas.
Okay--on Allyria:
The idea is that she seems to be a potential inversion of various things. She's the intended bride of an Un-Dead Night's King type--Beric. For all the things I gave above--which I hope make some sense.
As such, Allyria starts out the intended of a lighting lord (with Dayne imagery on his shield) in the service of a Stark.
Then, that lord falls in service to a Stark and is raised. Keeping his men with him out of their devotion to him, and their being impressed with Thoros' ability to raise him--which seems to echo the Night's King.
Beric then falls to save the undead Stark Bride--now the fire-based Night's Queen type is running the Brotherhood. Bound with a type of sorcery.
So, Allyria--she seems to be the forsaken bride, no? The Night's Queen that wasn't--her intend was lured away from her. But she is still the intended bride of a fire-wight.
Given that she's echoing and/or inverting some of the Night's King imagery, seems like there's a good chance Allyria is playing a role. The Night's Queen helped bring down the Night's King. But Allyria didn't bring Beric down. The wife of the Stark in Winterfell did (and his loyalty to her). So, as the forsaken brinde--what's Allyria's role?
This is one of the many things I'm wondering--and, given LmL 's and others' ideas re: Darkstar's wanting Dawn and perhaps stealing Dawn, I'm wondering if she will take down the unworthy one. Like the Stark in Winterfell took down the Night's King.
And that's still muddled and I have to go for a minute. Back in a bit to try to make some sense.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
What is interesting to me is how people keep seeing NK symbolism in characters which are also clearly playing into the Azor Ahai symbolism. Stannis and Jon and Rhaegar, and now Beric (though this seems like a very feint echo). I'm becoming increasingly certain that AA = NK, the LH is his son, for this very reason, and other reasons. This fits in with the general notion of ice and fire magics having a common origin, which many people are on board with (including myself).
What is interesting to me is how people keep seeing NK symbolism in characters which are also clearly playing into the Azor Ahai symbolism. Stannis and Jon and Rhaegar, and now Beric (though this seems like a very feint echo). I'm becoming increasingly certain that AA = NK, the LH is his son, for this very reason, and other reasons. This fits in with the general notion of ice and fire magics having a common origin, which many people are on board with (including myself).
I agree.
Though, as we've discussed before (I think--unless I've been speaking to the actual Lucifer ), I think both Beric's and Stannis' swords might be a narrative hint that the AA story is "false." That Lightbringer is not the fiery sword built on blood sacrifice. Even Beric's version that uses his own blood (echoing Arthur's "blood is the seal of our devotion") falls short.
That magic and its sword consume. Consumes Beric and then Cat. Allyria's the bride who is saved from the fire wight by his "night-fire queen." Saved by Beric's one remaining human capacity--loyalty and "honor" to his dead lord's dead wife.
So--false sword, undead-fire-wight, but real honor. Like Coldhands.
And Allyria, the ideal maiden, vs. the temptress who draws Beric into darkness. So, what magics might she be guarding in her Starfall towers?
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Ahh. Getting clearer, thank you. Though now I've got "Purple Haze" iny head as Darkstar's music.
Careful--Monsieur Darkstar might hear you--and his ego will inflate even further.
If that's possible.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
What is interesting to me is how people keep seeing NK symbolism in characters which are also clearly playing into the Azor Ahai symbolism. Stannis and Jon and Rhaegar, and now Beric (though this seems like a very feint echo). I'm becoming increasingly certain that AA = NK, the LH is his son, for this very reason, and other reasons. This fits in with the general notion of ice and fire magics having a common origin, which many people are on board with (including myself).
I agree.
Though, as we've discussed before (I think--unless I've been speaking to the actual Lucifer ), I think both Beric's and Stannis' swords might be a narrative hint that the AA story is "false." That Lightbringer is not the fiery sword built on blood sacrifice. Even Beric's version that uses his own blood (echoing Arthur's "blood is the seal of our devotion") falls short.
That magic and its sword consume. Consumes Beric and then Cat. Allyria's the bride who is saved from the fire wight by his "night-fire queen." Saved by Beric's one remaining human capacity--loyalty and "honor" to his dead lord's dead wife.
So--false sword, undead-fire-wight, but real honor. Like Coldhands.
And Allyria, the ideal maiden, vs. the temptress who draws Beric into darkness. So, what magics might she be guarding in her Starfall towers?
I feel like I missed a couple of your threads or something - I have no idea what you're talking about from the second paragraph on, lol.
I feel like I missed a couple of your threads or something - I have no idea what you're talking about from the second paragraph on, lol.
HA! You didn't miss anything. I just messed up my explanation--I only meant the first part. If I'm remembering right, we've cursorily discussed the possibility that Stannis' sword's being a fake might be a pointer that AA's sword wasn't the real "Red Sword of Heroes" at all. That it might be a garbled story--like your AA=bad guy theory. If so, AA's sword wasn't the real "hero" sword. Just a fake--like Mel's faking the sword.
And so is Beric--though his is more a cheap imitation than a "fake."
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Could Allyria eventually bring about someone's downfall (like the Night's Queen and even Cat)--but a necessary or even good downfall? Taking out Darkstar? Darkstar being like the Night's King but taken down by the Bride of Undead Fire?
Like Mel?
And I mean to suggest her for two of your unanswerable questions: Allyria bringing about someone's downfall, and Mel as another Bride of Fire who might prove antagonistic to Starfall.
That magic and its sword consume. Consumes Beric and then Cat.
And Stannis.
Though I do not think Beric's sword consumed him. In the case of Beric and now Cat, I think they are like rechargable batteries. Every time they are recharged, they are less vital. Unlike normal batteries, that live a normal life - at first full of energy, then slowly waning into death.
Stannis' sword's being a fake might be a pointer that AA's sword wasn't the real "Red Sword of Heroes" at all. That it might be a garbled story--like your AA=bad guy theory. If so, AA's sword wasn't the real "hero" sword. Just a fake--like Mel's faking the sword.
Yup. Which begs the question, why is Mel forcing this Stannis-charade in the first place?
And I mean to suggest her for two of your unanswerable questions: Allyria bringing about someone's downfall, and Mel as another Bride of Fire who might prove antagonistic to Starfall.
Very possible. The Downfall of Darkstar at Starfall. "Dark-Starfall." That's sort of like a Night's King, no? Happening at the opposite end of the continent. Over a title bestowed through a sword--like the Last Hero???
Yup. Which begs the question, why is Mel forcing this Stannis-charade in the first place?
This might go back to (some of) the Brotherhood's believe in Rhllor after Beric's revival. If, as you've postulated elsewhere, Mel was wighted, too, like Beric and Cat--she, too, might be a shell of her former self. And a true believer. And thus more willing to engage in mummery.
May also be a lot ditch effort. Catelyn-the-Dead's actions are a "purging" of the Riverlands. But they are also revenge on all she has lost. If Mel has lost everything else, this may be all she's got.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Very possible. The Downfall of Darkstar at Starfall. "Dark-Starfall." That's sort of like a Night's King, no?
Very much like NK. :::
(but be ye warned, I see NK in almost everthing... LOL)
NK was likely dark - dressed in NW blacks - and a man, when he fell "by light of day." Then upon rising with the darkness, he was probably white with starry eyes. Conjecture, that, but not without precedent (Symeon Star Eyes, Waymar, Othor, Jafer, Small Paul, Thistle).
Happening at the opposite end of the continent. Over a title bestowed through a sword--like the Last Hero???
The 'happening' itself seems rather liminal, no? One sword shattered in the cold long night. Another rose at dawn. Northron Ambitions made of Ice. Southron Ambitions made of Fire.
Dawn rose is a common motif in the series, and we see a winter rose growing from a chink in a Wall that looks like a large twin for the greatsword Dawn - alive with light.
This might go back to (some of) the Brotherhood's believe in Rhllor after Beric's revival. If, as you've postulated elsewhere, Mel was wighted, too, like Beric and Cat--she, too, might be a shell of her former self. And a true believer. And thus more willing to engage in mummery.
May also be a lot ditch effort. Catelyn-the-Dead's actions are a "purging" of the Riverlands. But they are also revenge on all she has lost. If Mel has lost everything else, this may be all she's got.
That would make a lot of sense. We find Catelyn Stoneheart ready to purge her own sworn sword from the Riverlands. If Mel were a younger, more beautiful fire-bride, it makes sense that she is no longer bound by her previous (human) morality. Dany exhibits much of the same.
Well, who wouldn't be impressed by flammable blood?
True but was his actual blood flammable? Or was it the act itself that brought light and heat? I'd like to think it was the latter, and that Beric was the true AAR, and that his arc is over so that the true Hero of the Morning can emerge. (If Winds of Winter begins with Catelyn at the Wall, kissing Jon, I might have to give LmL a lot of bowdown emojis.)
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Alert: Lyanna is currently the latest incarnation of the Nights Queen/Corpse Bride. The sweet smelling blue rose growing from a chink in the wall actually represents Lyanna herself.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
Very possible. The Downfall of Darkstar at Starfall. "Dark-Starfall." That's sort of like a Night's King, no?
Very much like NK. :::
(but be ye warned, I see NK in almost everthing... LOL)
NK was likely dark - dressed in NW blacks - and a man, when he fell "by light of day." Then upon rising with the darkness, he was probably white with starry eyes. Conjecture, that, but not without precedent (Symeon Star Eyes, Waymar, Othor, Jafer, Small Paul, Thistle).
Happening at the opposite end of the continent. Over a title bestowed through a sword--like the Last Hero???
The 'happening' itself seems rather liminal, no? One sword shattered in the cold long night. Another rose at dawn. Northron Ambitions made of Ice. Southron Ambitions made of Fire.
Dawn rose is a common motif in the series, and we see a winter rose growing from a chink in a Wall that looks like a large twin for the greatsword Dawn - alive with light.
This might go back to (some of) the Brotherhood's believe in Rhllor after Beric's revival. If, as you've postulated elsewhere, Mel was wighted, too, like Beric and Cat--she, too, might be a shell of her former self. And a true believer. And thus more willing to engage in mummery.
May also be a lot ditch effort. Catelyn-the-Dead's actions are a "purging" of the Riverlands. But they are also revenge on all she has lost. If Mel has lost everything else, this may be all she's got.
That would make a lot of sense. We find Catelyn Stoneheart ready to purge her own sworn sword from the Riverlands. If Mel were a younger, more beautiful fire-bride, it makes sense that she is no longer bound by her previous (human) morality. Dany exhibits much of the same.
Well, who wouldn't be impressed by flammable blood?
True but was his actual blood flammable? Or was it the act itself that brought light and heat? I'd like to think it was the latter, and that Beric was the true AAR, and that his arc is over so that the true Hero of the Morning can emerge. (If Winds of Winter begins with Catelyn at the Wall, kissing Jon, I might have to give LmL a lot of bowdown emojis.)
Just for the record, I think Mel will be involved, but I also think Bran might be as well. I suspect a greenseer can raise someone from the dead themselves, and they might not need ice or fire as a medium to do so. My best guess is that Mel's part will be burning the merged Jon-Ghost spirit out of the wolf. As for reanimating the corpse, that could be ice (whatever raises the wights, whether it be the Others or the North itself) or Mel's fire, or Bran's greenseer powers.
I'm not sure if Jon will have blue or red star eyes. Part of me thinks red, like ghosts's eyes and like a fire-undead or fire-transformed (Mel, Stoneheart, Beric). But then we have all the blue eyed king with a red sword and no shadow stuff, and not just for Stannis. AA reborn might need to combine ice and fire, and blue star eyes with a red sword might qualify.
BTW if Jon is raised by ice magic, then takes back over his body somehow, I think he would have black eyes like Coldhands. I suppose I am hoping for red eyed Jon, like his wolf or a weirwood. I don't think Coldhands could hold a sword of red fire, could he? He seems to avoid fire.
Just for the record, I think Mel will be involved, but I also think Bran might be as well. I suspect a greenseer can raise someone from the dead themselves, and they might not need ice or fire as a medium to do so
Yes--very possible. I've also been wondering a bit if the Varamyr prologue--specifically Varamyr's trying to skin change Thistle before she died--is a hint. She spits him out (more or less) and he goes to One Eye. But then she rises after wighting.
What would have happened if he's tried to skin change her after death, before wighting? Or even after wighting? And would Jon need extra help to do this?
My best guess is that Mel's part will be burning the merged Jon-Ghost spirit out of the wolf.
Maybe--though she sees him as man wolf man, right? Never "wolf-man"--seems like he's moving back and forth. So, would he need the merger "burned" or would he just need his body re-animatable?
I'm not sure if Jon will have blue or red star eyes. Part of me thinks red, like ghosts's eyes and like a fire-undead or fire-transformed (Mel, Stoneheart, Beric). But then we have all the blue eyed king with a red sword and no shadow stuff, and not just for Stannis. AA reborn might need to combine ice and fire, and blue star eyes with a red sword might qualify.
Jon wants to study the Wights (I'm now imagining the brochure for that University--"Wight University! Home of Undying Knowledge!").
And we have the story of Symeon Star Eyes. A figure mentioned a LOT for being from so long ago. So--Jon as the next Symeon Star Eyes? It would potentially explain why he's brought up a LOT for a mythical figure. And might fit with the Serwyn of the mirror shield references, which are also oddly plentiful for such an old figure.
Cersei lumps him in with Aemon the Dragonknight as Sansa's potential savior. Manderly makes a similar comparison to Davos. Serwyn's mentioned to Sansa by others, too (Joff and Baelish), as ideal. Serwyn and Symeon are knights from before there were knights. Like Florian the Fool. And Sansa thinks that Jon is one of the Black Knights of the Wall.
Just thinking--we may be being set up for Jon's being like the ancient figures. And Symeon Star Eyes is, well, blue-eyed.
And I agree on the Stannis reference. So, did Dany see the counterfeit? Vs. the real "blue-eyed" fighter? The blue flower in the chink of ice--when Ned dreamed blue rose petals, he saw them as "blue as the eyes of death." with good reason. But the blue flower growing--is it also tied to both the rose and the Blue eyes, like Ned does?
BTW if Jon is raised by ice magic, then takes back over his body somehow, I think he would have black eyes like Coldhands. I suppose I am hoping for red eyed Jon, like his wolf or a weirwood.
Yes--red eyes like his wolf might make sense. Might also make sense for his sword to be red--and part of him. As Ghost is part of him.
I don't think Coldhands could hold a sword of red fire, could he? He seems to avoid fire.
HA! I now have the Scarecrow in the Wizard of Oz in my head, set ablaze by the witch.
But yes, given that the wildlings burn their dead, I'm assuming Coldhands would be undone by "burning." Even if he gets a little brother in Jon-boy.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.