“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
As tempting as it sounds to say death by baby, I know we see eye to eye on this one. What I'd like to do is try to find the references in the text that describe childbirth, and analyze it a little more closely.
Mainly, my suspicions root from this conversation Arya had with Ned:
Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. ‘The wolf blood’ my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave
It implies that their "wildness" was what killed them, which makes me think of violence rather than childbirth. Wolfy, what were you saying in Heresy about the Virgin Mary imagery and Lyanna?
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
As tempting as it sounds to say death by baby, I know we see eye to eye on this one. What I'd like to do is try to find the references in the text that describe childbirth, and analyze it a little more closely.
Mainly, my suspicions root from this conversation Arya had with Ned:
Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. ‘The wolf blood’ my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave
It implies that their "wildness" was what killed them, which makes me think of violence rather than childbirth. Wolfy, what were you saying in Heresy about the Virgin Mary imagery and Lyanna?
Wildness could mean violence, yes. Or rebellion. Arya can be violent. But she was rebellious and willful and moody before she started killing people. That's the kind of wildness Ned actually knew about (unless he'd been burying bodies of her victims in the lichyard). Rebellious also fits with Ned's statement to Robert that he (Robert) never knew Lyanna's strength. And rebellion could mean violence, too. But could also get her dead other ways--including via baby.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Wildness could mean violence, yes. Or rebellion. Arya can be violent. But she was rebellious and willful and moody before she started killing people. That's the kind of wildness Ned actually knew about (unless he'd been burying bodies of her victims in the lichyard). Rebellious also fits with Ned's statement to Robert that he (Robert) never knew Lyanna's strength. And rebellion could mean violence, too. But could also get her dead other ways--including via baby.
I'm actually more open to the idea of death by baby now than I was before. When you speak of rebellion, are you referring to her running off with someone other than Robert and getting herself pregnant?
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Wildness could mean violence, yes. Or rebellion. Arya can be violent. But she was rebellious and willful and moody before she started killing people. That's the kind of wildness Ned actually knew about (unless he'd been burying bodies of her victims in the lichyard). Rebellious also fits with Ned's statement to Robert that he (Robert) never knew Lyanna's strength. And rebellion could mean violence, too. But could also get her dead other ways--including via baby.
I'm actually more open to the idea of death by baby now than I was before. When you speak of rebellion, are you referring to her running off with someone other than Robert and getting herself pregnant?
If death by baby--yeah. I think either Rhaegar (because we have them together on page--very, very briefly, but there) or Arthur (because while not on page, we do have Daynes popping up and the potential parallels with Oakheart and even Jon and Ygritte--maybe). But could she have run off on her own? sure. But she's older than Arya, so would think she'd probably want a plan. Not just scamper. Which probably means someone coming with.
All very hypothetical.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Fairly odd otherwise that in the same conversation that Ned finds out that Arya has a sword he
- says that Arya is wolf blooded just like Lyanna was - says that Lyanna's wolf blood led her to an early death - says that Rickard didn't allow Lyanna to wield a sword - says that Arya can keep Needle and that he will find someone to train her to properly wield her sword
The whole conversation is really about seeing Lyanna in Arya and realizing that if she's going to be willful like Lyanna was then she should be skilled like Lyanna wasn't.
And there is of course this scene from the show that starts at 3:05
Ned walks in on Arya learning to wield a sword and at first he's amused by how easily Syrio is "killing" Arya as she doesn't know what she's doing but as soon as Arya manages an attack (that seems to surprise Syrio no less), Ned immediately becomes uncomfortable and starts to experience a flashback of some battle that ends with Arya being stabbed in the gut and Ned looking pained.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
See, I took that passage to mean that if she had learned to weild a sword, she could have defended herself.
SlyWren, I'm beginning to favor Arthur + Lyanna, but if she is Jon's mother, even with Rhaegar, it doesn't mean she couldn't have died violently.
I wanna talk about Arthur and Lyanna, actually, but I'm still waiting around for superunknown5 to come by and lead the way, as it's his area of expertise.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
but if she is Jon's mother, even with Rhaegar, it doesn't mean she couldn't have died violently.
We do of course have Ned saying that wherever Lyanna was (be it the TOJ, Starfall, wherever), that she wanted to come home.
"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father."
The context is of course that she was dying and wanted to be laid to rest in Winterfell, but at least if we're to believe Ned, she wanted to go home in her last moments. Perhaps she also had been wanting to go home before she knew she was dying and attempted an escape?
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
As tempting as it sounds to say death by baby, I know we see eye to eye on this one. What I'd like to do is try to find the references in the text that describe childbirth, and analyze it a little more closely.
Mainly, my suspicions root from this conversation Arya had with Ned:
I'm going to pull those quotes later for you,i had put it together to post on the RLJ thread to indicate its within good reason that Lya got in an altercation and died because well it just was't her day.
Wildness could mean violence, yes. Or rebellion. Arya can be violent. But she was rebellious and willful and moody before she started killing people. That's the kind of wildness Ned actually knew about (unless he'd been burying bodies of her victims in the lichyard). Rebellious also fits with Ned's statement to Robert that he (Robert) never knew Lyanna's strength. And rebellion could mean violence, too. But could also get her dead other ways--including via baby.
This is the quote that Ned sums up in Arya:
"
We cannot fight a war among ourselves. This willfulness of yours, the running off, the angry words, the disobedience . . . at home, these were only the summer games of a child. Here and now, with winter soon upon us, that is a different matter. It is time to begin growing up."
And a clarfication on the Robert quote:
“You never knew Lyanna as I did Robert, you saw her beauty, but not the iron underneath”
This indicates that Ned's relationship as Lya's brother was not the same as Robert as her bethrothed.Just as my husband wouldn't know me the way my sisters and brother would.I naturally wouldn't behave the same way with him as i do with them.So Lya it seems wasn't iron when it came to Robert,but that was a side Ned saw as her brother.Looking back at Bran's glimpse through the weirnet it seems what Ned had to put up with Arya is something Rickard had to with Lya to some degrees.
Fairly odd otherwise that in the same conversation that Ned finds out that Arya has a sword he
- says that Arya is wolf blooded just like Lyanna was - says that Lyanna's wolf blood led her to an early death - says that Rickard didn't allow Lyanna to wield a sword - says that Arya can keep Needle and that he will find someone to train her to properly wield her sword
The whole conversation is really about seeing Arya in Lyanna and realizing that if she's going to be willful like Lyanna was then she should be skilled like Lyanna wasn't.
From Bran's glimpse Lyanna was practicing in secret.....time elapsed ofcourse for her to get a bit better,but i don't think good enough against multiple swordsmen.So i think it was a matter of Lyanna biting off more than she could have chewed instead of backing down in the face of big ass odds.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
It implies that their "wildness" was what killed them, which makes me think of violence rather than childbirth. Wolfy, what were you saying in Heresy about the Virgin Mary imagery and Lyanna?
Yes per Theon and Ned's dream especially of Lyanna 'weeping blood.'
That is old school myth the 'weeping woman" usually blood or tears .The meaning as in the case of the Virgin Mary,Llohorna,Onryo is vengence and justice for some wrong done against them.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
BTW: off topic, but The Great Other is launching an attack against us right now. Things might get a little hairy for a few minutes while we fight him off.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
It implies that their "wildness" was what killed them, which makes me think of violence rather than childbirth. Wolfy, what were you saying in Heresy about the Virgin Mary imagery and Lyanna?
Yes per Theon and Ned's dream especially of Lyanna 'weeping blood.'
That is old school myth the 'weeping woman" usually blood or tears .The meaning as in the case of the Virgin Mary,Llohorna,Onryo is vengence and justice for some wrong done against them.
Were you the one who made the connection with the weeping woman and the lady in Bran's vision asking for vengeance? It makes me think of La Llorona. Boy my mom used to scare me with that tale.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
