Women who chose to play the part of men by literally fighting like Knights and soldiers are "being" told where their wars and bloody beds 'should'should take place.
That being said Who would you group Lyanna with: Asha,Brienne,Arya or Cat,Cersie and Margery.
Ohhh, that is a fantastic point, wolfmaid. If Arya is the current version of Lyanna, and we see her choosing the road less traveled in every.single.instance. (not to mention consciously/deliberately assuming the opposite gender role on more than one occasion) of her arc, it makes absolutely no sense to think that Lyanna was some kind of total conformist that will play her womanly part without deviation or complaint.
GRRM has certainly demonstrated that femininity is a weapon. However, it is NOT the weapon of choice for ALL women in the series, and their 'fighting' does NOT take place in a domestic capacity. I am with you 100%.
Women who chose to play the part of men by literally fighting like Knights and soldiers are "being" told where their wars and bloody beds 'should'should take place.
That being said Who would you group Lyanna with: Asha,Brienne,Arya or Cat,Cersie and Margery.
Ohhh, that is a fantastic point, wolfmaid. If Arya is the current version of Lyanna, and we see her choosing the road less traveled in every.single.instance. (not to mention consciously/deliberately assuming the opposite gender role on more than one occasion) of her arc, it makes absolutely no sense to think that Lyanna was some kind of total conformist that will play her womanly part without deviation or complaint.
GRRM has certainly demonstrated that femininity is a weapon. However, it is NOT the weapon of choice for ALL women in the series, and their 'fighting' does NOT take place in a domestic capacity. I am with you 100%.
Exactly,this is the underpinning of these conversation its more than just phraseology it is phraselogy in context and the context is women who alter where "their" wars and battles should take place per the general thinking.Hence its important to look at whose speaking at to whom.Lyanna who would have readily and open a sword had Rickard wanted,who engaged in fending off bullies and sword playing should be viewed also in that regard.Asha and Brienne broke from the status quo thus they merited being told "hey your wars and bloody bed should be on account of birthing," not fighting with swords and s**t.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
“”Last of all, he came to the tomb where his father slept, with Brandon and Lyanna beside him.”Promise me, Ned," Lyanna's statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood."
This imagery is very popular in a lot of cultural myths,ghost stories and religion.Particularly statues of the Virgin Mother Weeping tears of blood.It is a long held belief among followers that she is crying for the injustice perpetrated on the inncocent and weak.Away from the religious to the cultural stories of women mostly mothers that have been wronged by lovers,husbands and family die tragically but return from the dead seeking vengence.
“The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna (Theon).
At Winterfell's Feast for the dead Theon has a dream of people he knew and didn't know all in a state of how they died.The visual of Lyanna spattered with gore speaks of a violent death as these two words is associated with battle wounds.In "The companion to Greek Democracy and Roman Repuplic," "spattered with gore," is a motif that exemplfies a victim's blood's tracing the path of responsibility
I've usually interpreted the fact that her gown was spattered with gore but she shows no wound (that I can remember) to mean that her death was connected with violence but not necessarily caused by it. She isn't wounded--but you have the pure white dress ruined. Her life, even her death--stained by violence. Like the rebellion.
And, to follow your idea of the blood traces responsibility--we have no indication in the dream that the blood is Lyanna's, right? Just that it and the gore are spattered on her gown. So--a sign of chaos and violence she helped to start. She doesn't have a wound but is spattered in blood--not sure the blood is supposed to be hers.
As for the bloody tears--I'm still wandering a bit on that. That's Ned's vision/dream, so the idea that she's calling to him or that his psyche feels guilt and thus concocts the dream--seems like it could more be about his own guilt at things not going as she wanted. He's made her promises--possibly about "making things right" (whatever that could mean)--maybe he's failing somehow--he thinks of broken promises in the crypts.
But I do think there's a distinction between Ned's dream and Theon's. Theon's could be explained by the events of the rebellion--especially without a visible wound. It's more general guilt towards the Starks (I think). So, Lyanna looks like the basics of the story he probably knows--girl with rose crown connected to war. Ned's dream/vision seems more personal, about his own feelings of failing her--we have him thinking about promises, etc. when he's not dreaming.
Lyanna's wildness could have something to do with the knight of laughing tree and what that may have led to. And I lean towards death by birth not because i have evidence but because its a theme with 2 other main characters Dany and Tyrion
Yeah--that kind of wildness works. I've usually thought it was straight up stubbornness and unwillingness to conform--which is what Ned sees Arya do and thus is probably comparing that to Lyanna. And I agree on the parallels of mothers dying in childbirth for those characters. Am also wondering if that's one of the reasons he doesn't want to tell Jon about his mother too early . . . doesn't want the kid feeling guilty. But that's pure speculation.
Last Edit: Jul 24, 2015 23:03:39 GMT by SlyWren: Clarity
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
“”Last of all, he came to the tomb where his father slept, with Brandon and Lyanna beside him.”Promise me, Ned," Lyanna's statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood."
This imagery is very popular in a lot of cultural myths,ghost stories and religion.Particularly statues of the Virgin Mother Weeping tears of blood.It is a long held belief among followers that she is crying for the injustice perpetrated on the inncocent and weak.Away from the religious to the cultural stories of women mostly mothers that have been wronged by lovers,husbands and family die tragically but return from the dead seeking vengence.
“The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna (Theon).
At Winterfell's Feast for the dead Theon has a dream of people he knew and didn't know all in a state of how they died.The visual of Lyanna spattered with gore speaks of a violent death as these two words is associated with battle wounds.In "The companion to Greek Democracy and Roman Repuplic," "spattered with gore," is a motif that exemplfies a victim's blood's tracing the path of responsibility
I've usually interpreted the fact that her gown was spattered with gore but she shows no wound (that I can remember) to mean that her death was connected with violence but not necessarily caused by it. She isn't wounded--but you have the pure white dress ruined. Her life, even her death--stained by violence. Like the rebellion.
And, to follow your idea of the blood traces responsibility--we have no indication in the dream that the blood is Lyanna's, right? Just that it and the gore are spattered on her gown. So--a sign of chaos and violence she helped to start. She doesn't have a wound but is spattered in blood--not sure the blood is supposed to be hers.
As for the bloody tears--I'm still wandering a bit on that. That's Ned's vision/dream, so the idea that she's calling to him or that his psyche feels guilt and thus concocts the dream--seems like it could more be about his own guilt at things not going as she wanted. He's made her promises--possibly about "making things right" (whatever that could mean)--maybe he's failing somehow--he thinks of broken promises in the crypts.
But I do think there's a distinction between Ned's dream and Theon's. Theon's could be explained by the events of the rebellion--especially without a visible wound. It's more general guilt towards the Starks (I think). So, Lyanna looks like the basics of the story he probably knows--girl with rose crown connected to war. Ned's dream/vision seems more personal, about his own feelings of failing her--we have him thinking about promises, etc. when he's not dreaming.
Lyanna's wildness could have something to do with the knight of laughing tree and what that may have led to. And I lean towards death by birth not because i have evidence but because its a theme with 2 other main characters Dany and Tyrion
Yeah--that kind of wildness works. I've usually thought it was straight up stubbornness and unwillingness to conform--which is what Ned sees Arya do and thus is probably comparing that to Lyanna. And I agree on the parallels of mothers dying in childbirth for those characters. Am also wondering if that's one of the reasons he doesn't want to tell Jon about his mother too early . . . doesn't want the kid feeling guilty. But that's pure speculation.
I totally agree with you on the Lya it is something i proposed before in the RLJ thread ,that is her image in his dream being a symbolic representation of what Theon has heard about what happened with respect to her and her part in RR.The fact about the origin of the blood was the spoke for me when i brought it up on Heresy as well. We just don't know it could be external or it could directly related to her. Where it takes a different turn for me is Ned's dream of her weeping blood which in every motif and myth i know speaks of some form of injustice.And the crier is 99.99% a mother who was wronged by a lover,husband or family member.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
I've usually interpreted the fact that her gown was spattered with gore but she shows no wound (that I can remember) to mean that her death was connected with violence but not necessarily caused by it. She isn't wounded--but you have the pure white dress ruined. Her life, even her death--stained by violence. Like the rebellion.
And, to follow your idea of the blood traces responsibility--we have no indication in the dream that the blood is Lyanna's, right? Just that it and the gore are spattered on her gown. So--a sign of chaos and violence she helped to start. She doesn't have a wound but is spattered in blood--not sure the blood is supposed to be hers.
As for the bloody tears--I'm still wandering a bit on that. That's Ned's vision/dream, so the idea that she's calling to him or that his psyche feels guilt and thus concocts the dream--seems like it could more be about his own guilt at things not going as she wanted. He's made her promises--possibly about "making things right" (whatever that could mean)--maybe he's failing somehow--he thinks of broken promises in the crypts.
But I do think there's a distinction between Ned's dream and Theon's. Theon's could be explained by the events of the rebellion--especially without a visible wound. It's more general guilt towards the Starks (I think). So, Lyanna looks like the basics of the story he probably knows--girl with rose crown connected to war. Ned's dream/vision seems more personal, about his own feelings of failing her--we have him thinking about promises, etc. when he's not dreaming.
Yeah--that kind of wildness works. I've usually thought it was straight up stubbornness and unwillingness to conform--which is what Ned sees Arya do and thus is probably comparing that to Lyanna. And I agree on the parallels of mothers dying in childbirth for those characters. Am also wondering if that's one of the reasons he doesn't want to tell Jon about his mother too early . . . doesn't want the kid feeling guilty. But that's pure speculation.
I totally agree with you on the Lya it is something i proposed before in the RLJ thread ,that is her image in his dream being a symbolic representation of what Theon has heard about what happened with respect to her and her part in RR.The fact about the origin of the blood was the spoke for me when i brought it up on Heresy as well. We just don't know it could be external or it could directly related to her. Where it takes a different turn for me is Ned's dream of her weeping blood which in every motif and myth i know speaks of some form of injustice.And the crier is 99.99% a mother who was wronged by a lover,husband or family member.
OMG!!! ::: Something just clicked. Wolfmaid is so right! The baby was Robert's. Probably via rape. She was injured when they took the baby to be held hostage. But she also made Ned swear vengeance against ROBERT. Or Jon to be able to do so when he is of age. What else happens right before Ned is jailed??? Why Robert is killed by the boar. No longer can Ned, or Jon for that matter, take vengeance. One of the promises may well be that Robert never be told of his son. This fits so much better with the brothel scene, explains the gore and the bloody tears. Or maybe I'm just crazier than usual...
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
You had me at crazier please continue, the more creative, the better!
BTW: I'm in agreement re: earlier talk that Lyanna having a baby and dying a violent death are not necessarily mutually exclusive. That could be part of the plot twist.
the only thing about Robert rape is that I can't imagine him holding Lyanna in such high esteem, putting her on a pedestal if he had raped her. I got the impression that he grew bored of his conquests after he "conquered" them.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
I totally agree with you on the Lya it is something i proposed before in the RLJ thread ,that is her image in his dream being a symbolic representation of what Theon has heard about what happened with respect to her and her part in RR.The fact about the origin of the blood was the spoke for me when i brought it up on Heresy as well. We just don't know it could be external or it could directly related to her. Where it takes a different turn for me is Ned's dream of her weeping blood which in every motif and myth i know speaks of some form of injustice.And the crier is 99.99% a mother who was wronged by a lover,husband or family member.
OMG!!! ::: Something just clicked. Wolfmaid is so right! The baby was Robert's. Probably via rape. She was injured when they took the baby to be held hostage. But she also made Ned swear vengeance against ROBERT. Or Jon to be able to do so when he is of age. What else happens right before Ned is jailed??? Why Robert is killed by the boar. No longer can Ned, or Jon for that matter, take vengeance. One of the promises may well be that Robert never be told of his son. This fits so much better with the brothel scene, explains the gore and the bloody tears. Or maybe I'm just crazier than usual...
I don't think your crazy at all. I do think Jon is Robert's,though i don't think it was rape.A case could be made for it though but Robert would have to be drunk like a skunk and un aware of what he was doing.Also i agree that knowledge of Jon was intentionally held from Robert and it could have been because Lyanna requested that or Ned of his own decided.This quote though its part of my Ghost Grass section always gets me because its so filled with emotion.Note we can only speculate as to what it is.
“I failed you, Robert, Ned thought. He could not say the words. I lied to you, hid the truth. I let them kill you.”AGOT,Ned Chpt 58.
In all the conversations these men had there is only one thing Robert said Ned had told him once and that was the name of Jon's mother and that he was the father.But this in all honesty would work better for Robert or Rhaegar.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
You had me at crazier please continue, the more creative, the better!
BTW: I'm in agreement re: earlier talk that Lyanna having a baby and dying a violent death are not necessarily mutually exclusive. That could be part of the plot twist.
the only thing about Robert rape is that I can't imagine him holding Lyanna in such high esteem, putting her on a pedestal if he had raped her. I got the impression that he grew bored of his conquests after he "conquered" them.
Just because Lyanna remembers it as rape, doesn't have to mean that Robert does. Or for that matter, that Robert even remembers it at all. He is sort of known for his drinking...
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
Oh, I didn't question whether it was rape or consensual- what I meant was that Robert seems like the kind of guy who would lose interest in a woman once they had sex. And he still puts Lyanna on a pedestal
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
You had me at crazier please continue, the more creative, the better!
BTW: I'm in agreement re: earlier talk that Lyanna having a baby and dying a violent death are not necessarily mutually exclusive. That could be part of the plot twist.
the only thing about Robert rape is that I can't imagine him holding Lyanna in such high esteem, putting her on a pedestal if he had raped her. I got the impression that he grew bored of his conquests after he "conquered" them.
As Lady Dyanna said under that situation Robert woould have had to done the deed and not remembered him being drunk and all.He loved Lyanna and would not conciously do something like that so if it was so unfortunate as that,its another reason not to tell him.That would have effed him up for good and in a severe way.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
As Lady Dyanna said under that situation Robert woould have had to done the deed and not remembered him being drunk and all.He loved Lyanna and would not conciously do something like that so if it was so unfortunate as that,its another reason not to tell him.That would have effed him up for good and in a severe way.
Are you saying he doesn't remember having sex with her at all? Maybe that's why I didn't understand.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
OMG!!! ::: Something just clicked. Wolfmaid is so right! The baby was Robert's. Probably via rape. She was injured when they took the baby to be held hostage. But she also made Ned swear vengeance against ROBERT. Or Jon to be able to do so when he is of age. What else happens right before Ned is jailed??? Why Robert is killed by the boar. No longer can Ned, or Jon for that matter, take vengeance. One of the promises may well be that Robert never be told of his son. This fits so much better with the brothel scene, explains the gore and the bloody tears. Or maybe I'm just crazier than usual...
I don't think your crazy at all. I do think Jon is Robert's,though i don't think it was rape.A case could be made for it though but Robert would have to be drunk like a skunk and un aware of what he was doing.Also i agree that knowledge of Jon was intentionally held from Robert and it could have been because Lyanna requested that or Ned of his own decided.This quote though its part of my Ghost Grass section always gets me because its so filled with emotion.Note we can only speculate as to what it is.
“I failed you, Robert, Ned thought. He could not say the words. I lied to you, hid the truth. I let them kill you.”AGOT,Ned Chpt 58.
In all the conversations these men had there is only one thing Robert said Ned had told him once and that was the name of Jon's mother and that he was the father.But this in all honesty would work better for Robert or Rhaegar.
Good quote. That could refer to so many things on so many levels. I do truly think a case could be made for rape, or at the very least Lyanna feeling as if it was. First, as you mentioned, Robert is quite known for his drinking. Secondly, who else remained alive long enough for Lyanna to have wished vengeance against, that was unable to be carried out, as the bloody tears suggest?
I also need to apologize to you. In my own mind I was calling you nuts when I first heard this idea from you in heresy. I think, as much as I don't want this to be true, you really did pick up on something. :::
I'm going to try this again. My touch screen keeps putting my response at the end of your quote....
Ok still won't work. Response is at bottom of quotes
Last Edit: Jul 25, 2015 2:24:20 GMT by Lady Dyanna
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
As Lady Dyanna said under that situation Robert woould have had to done the deed and not remembered him being drunk and all.He loved Lyanna and would not conciously do something like that so if it was so unfortunate as that,its another reason not to tell him.That would have effed him up for good and in a severe way.
Are you saying he doesn't remember having sex with her at all? Maybe that's why I didn't understand.
I really hadn't gotten that far in the specifics in my head when I first posted, but with Robert's character it really wouldn't surprise me if he really was drunk enough to forget it all.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
Ok, I'm open to the idea, I'm just trying to understand. If Robert had sex with Lyanna, consensually or not, my point was that he'd forget about her or grow bored. But, he still has this fantasy about her in his head about how great she was.
So I guess what I'm trying to understand is how he still pined for her if he already "got" her. Does that make sense? Because if he slept with her and had no memory of it, that would make more sense to me, I think.
I'm going to go ahead and tag voice here, because I believe he was arguing for this theory to me in the past.
NB: I haven't fully decided on who I think Jon's parents are, just trying to understand the connections
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones