Were you the one who made the connection with the weeping woman and the lady in Bran's vision asking for vengeance? It makes me think of La Llorona. Boy my mom used to scare me with that tale.
I don't recall if it was me first but i did make the connection with her,La Llorona and Onryo and these are just a few from around the world different variations ofcourse of women most of them mothers having been wronged by lovers,husbands,family members who come back from the grave seeking vengence and justice against the wrongs. In the case of the Virgin mary whose weeping blood image is most popular its more generally directed to her crying out for justice of the innocent.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
"Now two children danced across the godswood, hooting at
one another as they dueled with broken branches. The girl was the older and taller of the two. Arya!
Bran thought eagerly, as he watched her leap up onto a rock and cut at the boy. But that couldn’t be
right. If the girl was Arya, the boy was Bran himself, and he had never worn his hair so long. And Arya
never beat me playing swords, the way that girl is beating him. She slashed the boy across his thigh, so
hard that his leg went out from under him and he fell into the pool and began to splash and shout. “You
be quiet, stupid,” the girl said, tossing her own branch aside. “It’s just water. Do you want Old Nan to
hear and run tell Father?” She knelt and pulled her brother from the pool, but before she got him out
again, the two of them were gone."
They were playing at swords,something she apparently wasn't suppose to be doing.
Ok, this was also a nice refresher- thanks for pulling the quote, because it does confirm that Arya looks like Lyanna. I know Ned tells her they're similar, but Bran mistakes her for Lyanna! She also talks like her. Eerie, huh?
I dont want to derail the thread, but it also reminds me that Lyanna would have been closer to Benjen, as Brandon was with the Dustins and Ned with the Arryns. It strikes me as strange that BenJen doesn't seem to think of her. He didn't go down to the crypts that we know of, and as MarkG has pointed out, he seemed to flee to the Wall pretty quickly after Ned came back.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
because it does confirm that Arya looks like Lyanna.
Yeah but Bran also thinks that he looks like Benjen despite Benjen not looking like a Tully like Bran does. Bran has different eye colour, different hair colour, different skin colour, different features, but Bran thinks he looks like Benjen except Benjen has longer hair.
So kind of unclear exactly how much Arya actually looks like Lyanna. Bran clearly has a fairly open interpretation of what similar looks are.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
because it does confirm that Arya looks like Lyanna.
Yeah but Bran also thinks that he looks like Benjen despite Benjen not looking like a Tully like Bran does. Bran has different eye colour, different hair colour, different skin colour, different features, but Bran thinks he looks like Benjen except Benjen has longer hair.
So kind of unclear exactly how much Arya actually looks like Lyanna. Bran clearly has a fairly open interpretation of what similar looks are.
Perhaps Bran didn't realize he was being a Timelord just now...Weasel Pie do you have Bran the Time Lord saved?? ::brick wall::
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Another thing is that it's unclear whether or not that actually is Benjen and Lyanna. We assume it is because the girl mentions Old Nan, but we don't exactly know when Old Nan started working at Winterfell. With the Stark family tree from the World Book we can finally eliminate that she started working there during Rickard Stark's time as Rickard was an only child so she couldn't have been brought in to nurse his brother Brandon. So Old Nan has been working for the Starks for at least 4 generations and I'm going to say that she was the wetnurse of William Stark and Lyanne Glover's son Brandon as the tree just ends with this Brandon which implies he died without having kids. In which case, that generation does have some Stark brothers and sisters which could supply the boy and girl Bran sees. Old Nan's apparently possibly the oldest person in the Seven Kingdoms (putting her over 100 seeing as Aemon was over 100 as well), and Ned says that she was already called Old Nan when he was a kid so wouldn't be that strange that she was Old Nan 3-4 generations back as well.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
From Bran's glimpse Lyanna was practicing in secret.....time elapsed ofcourse for her to get a bit better,but i don't think good enough against multiple swordsmen.So i think it was a matter of Lyanna biting off more than she could have chewed instead of backing down in the face of big ass odds.
Yes--especially if she had the fever before the fight. Could also have fight as consequence of fever. Either way--if she was guarded and if she did fight (lots of ifs) would have had to be desperate or really angry.
I still favor death via childbirth complications--but the blood spattered gown in Theon's vision gives me pause. Could easily be explained as representing the war triggered in part by her disappearance. But might mean more.
slywren, I'm beginning to favor Arthur + Lyanna, but if she is Jon's mother, even with Rhaegar, it doesn't mean she couldn't have died violently.
I wanna talk about Arthur and Lyanna, actually, but I'm still waiting around for superunknown5 to come by and lead the way, as it's his area of expertise.
Agreed--both could have happened. And I, too, am looking forward to the Arthur discussion. Can make a case for some of it in my head--though none is on page with Lyanna--will stop now and wait for the other thread.
Last Edit: Jul 24, 2015 3:56:10 GMT by SlyWren: Format, format, format
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Agreed--both could have happened. And I, too, am looking forward to the Arthur discussion. Can make a case for some of it in my head--though none is on page with Lyanna--will stop now and wait for the other thread.
No, go ahead and start, superunknown will have a whole thread for his essay. I'll play tennis with you, I'm rusty but I have some evidence for Arthur we can play around with. Thanks for all your contributions so far!
***And it's death by baby
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Another thing is that it's unclear whether or not that actually is Benjen and Lyanna. We assume it is because the girl mentions Old Nan, but we don't exactly know when Old Nan started working at Winterfell. With the Stark family tree from the World Book we can finally eliminate that she started working there during Rickard Stark's time as Rickard was an only child so she couldn't have been brought in to nurse his brother Brandon. So Old Nan has been working for the Starks for at least 4 generations and I'm going to say that she was the wetnurse of William Stark and Lyanne Glover's son Brandon as the tree just ends with this Brandon which implies he died without having kids. In which case, that generation does have some Stark brothers and sisters which could supply the boy and girl Bran sees. Old Nan's apparently possibly the oldest person in the Seven Kingdoms (putting her over 100 seeing as Aemon was over 100 as well), and Ned says that she was already called Old Nan when he was a kid so wouldn't be that strange that she was Old Nan 3-4 generations back as well.
Agree that we don't know via Nan's longevity. But am wondering if Bran's seeing visions are having a certain amount of topicality. Not just for the narration and the reader, but also for Bran. He's seeing things tied to important aspects of his history. And learning about the players/factors in the rebellion and how they are tied to current events (context to be determined)--am thinking it's somewhat safe to assume it's Benjen and Lyanna. For now.
Though I now have John le Carre's characters in my head warning me about the dangers of topicality. About accepting info that's overly topical. So, take the above with a grain of salt.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
I'm going to pull those quotes later for you,i had put it together to post on the RLJ thread to indicate its within good reason that Lya got in an altercation and died because well it just was't her day.
That's a good place to do it, just keep in mind this isn't Sable Hall, and the RLJ crowd is welcome here. We'd rather not have SH's version of RLJ threads, or the W's for that matter, but a balanced discussion of strengths and weaknesses for all.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
What Mark said. I remember both of us posting about that Syrio/Arya scene at Westeros and the responses of "Oh, Ned was just worried about Arya fighting in a battle." Riiiiiiight.
Lyanna might have had a child, but I don't believe it was childbirth that killed her.
My headcanon says that she took a wound defending a child....now whether it was HER child or another remains to be seen, but I see too much parallel imagery with Ned's recollections of Lyanna, Robert's death by SuperPig, Arya's experiences at Harrenhal, etc for there not to be a connection with violence.
What Mark said. I remember both of us posting about that Syrio/Arya scene at Westeros and the responses of "Oh, Ned was just worried about Arya fighting in a battle." Riiiiiiight.
Lyanna might have had a child, but I don't believe it was childbirth that killed her.
My headcanon says that she took a wound defending a child....now whether it was HER child or another remains to be seen, but I see too much parallel imagery with Ned's recollections of Lyanna, Robert's death by SuperPig, Arya's experiences at Harrenhal, etc for there not to be a connection with violence.
You you my dear of the same mind as me.I will post something in a bit on the myth of the "Orphaned baby" you might find interesting.I agree,and will add i think Jon was ripped from Lyanna arms and she died defending him being taken as a hostage.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
What Mark said. I remember both of us posting about that Syrio/Arya scene at Westeros and the responses of "Oh, Ned was just worried about Arya fighting in a battle." Riiiiiiight.
Lyanna might have had a child, but I don't believe it was childbirth that killed her.
My headcanon says that she took a wound defending a child....now whether it was HER child or another remains to be seen, but I see too much parallel imagery with Ned's recollections of Lyanna, Robert's death by SuperPig, Arya's experiences at Harrenhal, etc for there not to be a connection with violence.
The other response I remember was that people thought that there was way too much sound to be from the TOJ battle and that it had to have been a full on battle that Ned is remembering. But to me it's perfect for a 10 person
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Post by serwalterpuffsalot on Jul 24, 2015 18:23:06 GMT
Lyanna's wildness could have something to do with the knight of laughing tree and what that may have led to. And I lean towards death by birth not because i have evidence but because its a theme with 2 other main characters Dany and Tyrion
"And the triarch Belicho defeated the great hawk from the sea despite his sails not being fully inflated"
So here i go with my thoughts on what caused Lya's death.
First lets look at her character and i think her defense of Howland Reed says alot. Even if her level of skill is disputed what is certain is she gets her hands dirty.Now onto the quotes:
“”Last of all, he came to the tomb where his father slept, with Brandon and Lyanna beside him.”Promise me, Ned," Lyanna's statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood."
This imagery is very popular in a lot of cultural myths,ghost stories and religion.Particularly statues of the Virgin Mother Weeping tears of blood.It is a long held belief among followers that she is crying for the injustice perpetrated on the inncocent and weak.Away from the religious to the cultural stories of women mostly mothers that have been wronged by lovers,husbands and family die tragically but return from the dead seeking vengence.
“The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna (Theon).
At Winterfell's Feast for the dead Theon has a dream of people he knew and didn't know all in a state of how they died.The visual of Lyanna spattered with gore speaks of a violent death as these two words is associated with battle wounds.In "The companion to Greek Democracy and Roman Repuplic," "spattered with gore," is a motif that exemplfies a victim's blood's tracing the path of responsibility which could validateNed's statement that Lyanna's actions(wolf blood) like Brandon's led her to an early death.
All of this ofcourse doesn't negate that Lyanna may of had a baby (live/dead,boy/girl) only that her death may not have resulted from it.
He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood."
"I heard you speak of birthing songs . . . " "I know every secret of the bloody bed, Silver Lady, nor have I ever lost a babe," Mirri Maz Duur replied
That was the way of this cold world, where men fished the sea and dug in the ground and died, whilst women brought forth short-lived children from beds of blood and pain. (Damphair, AFFC)
So we have in total two quotes in various ways speak of “bloody beds/beds” of blood and childbirth.
Women birth children in blood and pain, and die. (Damphair in Theon, ACOK).
No woman could defeat him, not even Asha; women were made to fight their battles in the birthing bed. (Damphair, AFFC).
“The gods made men to fight, and women to bear children. A woman's war is in the birthing bed.”
I'm going to dismiss all the other imagery of deflowering and bloody sheets,menses and bloody sheets etc and focus on the underlining points in the above quotes.
Women who chose to play the part of men by literally fighting like Knights and soldiers are "being" told where their wars and bloody beds 'should'should take place.
That being said Who would you group Lyanna with: Asha,Brienne,Arya or Cat,Cersie and Margery.What does the first three have in common with Lyanna? The connotation is we have a cultural ideology on battles and wars should take place for women.But the bigger question is what if she doesn't conform to that gender role like Asha,Brienne even Arya who gauffs at the idea of being anyone's wife and mother but who want's to be a fighter? Where will her battle and bloody bed occur?
To Arya again wolf blooded Arya.So Prince Joffery starts punking the Buther's boy with his sword.What does Arya do? Was it wise what she did hitting Joff or should she have backed down?