Post by voice on Jun 20, 2016 19:42:56 GMT
I think we had talked about his on Heresy a bit with how mama Direwolf got through the Wall and there was some interesting points made on this matter especially when i guess it was Ghost thinking about the day they were found.I will look for that convo.It matters not either way .I don't believe the scene of mama Direwolf is about Lyanna and Jon.Its about House Stark in general.
We also have a forensic file on the chapter here.
But sure, I agree. The Direwolf is the sigil of House Stark, and this is a direwolf. It represents all of them.
But this is not a direwolf racing across an ice white field, it is a dead direwolf in a bed of blood that has recently given birth. Lyanna. Wolf blood. Dead before her time.
Symmetry.
Yeah i know that women die during childbirth that's not even an arguement that i'm against.What i'm saying is that "it" is a battle that's the connection.Nah i don't think it does work.First,i re-read that part just now with the killing of Lady.Ned didn't think of Lyanna there.At all,when Sansa started crying and begging, Ned told Robert "for the love you bore my sister".When he killed Lady he still didn't thnk of her.Is there another text related to this?
Some:
- A Game of Thrones - Eddard III
Robert’s face darkened with anger. “That would be a fine trick, without a wolf.”
“We have a wolf,” Cersei Lannister said. Her voice was very quiet, but her green eyes shone with triumph.
It took them all a moment to comprehend her words, but when they did, the king shrugged irritably. “As you will. Have Ser Ilyn see to it.”
“Robert, you cannot mean this,” Ned protested.
The king was in no mood for more argument. “Enough, Ned, I will hear no more. A direwolf is a savage beast. Sooner or later it would have turned on your girl [1] the same way the other did on my son. Get her a dog, she’ll be happier for it.”
That was when Sansa finally seemed to comprehend. Her eyes were frightened as they went to her father. “He doesn’t mean Lady, does he?” She saw the truth on his face. “No,” she said. “No, not Lady, Lady didn’t bite anybody, she’s good...”
“Lady wasn’t there,” Arya shouted angrily. “You leave her alone!”
“Stop them,” Sansa pleaded, “don’t let them do it, please, please, it wasn’t Lady, it was Nymeria, Arya did it, you can’t, it wasn’t Lady, don’t let them hurt Lady, I’ll make her be good, I promise, I promise...” [2]
She started to cry.
All Ned could do was take her in his arms and hold her while she wept. He looked across the room at Robert. His old friend, closer than any brother. “Please, Robert. For the love you bear me. For the love you bore my sister. Please.” [3]
The king looked at them for a long moment, then turned his eyes on his wife. “Damn you, Cersei,” he said with loathing.
Ned stood, gently disengaging himself from Sansa’s grasp. All the weariness of the past four days had returned to him. “Do it yourself then, Robert,” he said in a voice cold and sharp as steel. [4] “At least have the courage to do it yourself.” [5]
Robert looked at Ned with flat, dead eyes and left without a word, his footsteps heavy as lead. Silence filled the hall.
“Where is the direwolf?” Cersei Lannister asked when her husband was gone. Beside her, Prince Joffrey was smiling.
“The beast is chained up outside the gatehouse, Your Grace,” Ser Barristan Selmy answered reluctantly.
“Send for Ilyn Payne.”
“No,” Ned said. “Jory, take the girls back to their rooms and bring me Ice.” The words tasted of bile in his throat, but he forced them out. “If it must be done, I will do it.” [5]
Cersei Lannister regarded him suspiciously. “You, Stark? Is this some trick? Why would you do such a thing?” [5]
They were all staring at him, but it was Sansa’s look that cut. “She is of the north. She deserves better than a butcher.” [5]
He left the room with his eyes burning and his daughter’s wails echoing in his ears, and found the direwolf pup where they chained her. Ned sat beside her for a while. “Lady,” he said, tasting the name. He had never paid much attention to the names the children had picked, but looking at her now, he knew that Sansa had chosen well. She was the smallest of the litter, the prettiest, the most gentle and trusting. [6] She looked at him with bright golden eyes, and he ruffled her thick grey fur.
Shortly, Jory brought him Ice.
When it was over, he said, “Choose four men and have them take the body north. Bury her at Winterfell.” [7]
“All that way?” Jory said, astonished.
“All that way,” Ned affirmed. “The Lannister woman shall never have this skin.”
1. A Stag is causing the death of a she-wolf, and running away. Also, Robert has just described a side effect of wolf blood upon a child woman of surpassing loveliness (Sansa): direwolf is a savage beast...sooner or later it would have turned on your girl.
2. Sansa is pleading and speaking of promises:
- A Game of Thrones - Eddard IV
Ned rose and paced the length of the room. "If the queen had a role in this or, gods forbid, the king himself … no, I will not believe that." Yet even as he said the words, he remembered that chill morning on the barrowlands, and Robert's talk of sending hired knives after the Targaryen princess. He remembered Rhaegar's infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the way the king had turned away, as he had turned away in Darry's audience hall not so long ago. He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.
3. Ned is reminded of Lyanna, and even mentions her to the Crowned Stag that has just doomed the she-wolf.
4. The Voice of the First Men.
"his voice was like the cracking of ice on a winter lake, and the words were mocking"
5. "... Yet our way is the older way. The blood of the First Men still flows in the veins of the Starks, and we hold to the belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die.
"One day, Bran, you will be Robb's bannerman, holding a keep of your own for your brother and your king, and justice will fall to you. When that day comes, you must take no pleasure in the task, but neither must you look away. A ruler who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is."
- The Crowned Stag has looked away from the sentence, just as the stag who lost its antler in the mother wolf is not present (in the book)
- Robert has forgotten what death is, Ned is death itself.
- Ned usurps Ilyn Payne and serves Robert as King's Justice in the killing of Lady.
- Ned believes Ilyn to be a butcher. Does that mean that the mother direwolf in Bran I was butchered? ...Was Lyanna? (I think we agree that she might have been.)
6. Brandon, Eddard, Lyanna, Benjen -- which was the smallest of the litter? the prettiest? I think we'd agree that was Lyanna.
...the most gentle and trusting? Probably Ned imo.
7. Like Lyanna.
Next,you will have to explain your thinking on how the fever in relation to Lyanna's death and the birth happened.Are you thinking she got stabbed and then went into labour? That won't work or are you thinking she gave birth and then got stabbed right after?
Will happily explain my thinking.
First, we must consider blue roses...
- Link: www.gardenguides.com/70125-blue-roses.html
Overview
Blue roses have fascinated people for many years. True blue roses are not found in nature, and generations at least since the Victorian times have taken white roses and put them in blue water, thus making them blue. The fascination and attempts at creating a blue rose have finally paid off.
Science
Blue roses did not originate in nature. The rose plant lacks a gene to create the color blue. In the year 2004 the Japanese company Suntory and its Australian subsidiary Florigene added blue genes from pansy flowers to roses and successfully created the world's first blue rose. Delphinidin is the plant pigment that produces a blue hue and is not naturally found in roses.
History
The world has been entranced with the concept of the blue rose for over a century. As far back as 1840, horticultural societies in Britain and Belgium together offered to award a prize of 500,000 francs to the person who could produce a true blue rose. To be able to create a blue rose has long been considered the "holy grail" of horticulturalists worldwide.
Symbolism
The symbol of the blue rose is mystery and longing to attain the impossible. Some cultures go so far as to say that the holder of a blue rose will have his wishes granted. In Chinese folklore, the blue rose symbolizes hope for unattainable love.
Rose Gardening
There are many varieties of natural roses and hybrids that have been given the term "blue" in their names. These flowers are not truly blue, however. Blueberry Hill roses are actually light lilac in color. Blueberry Hill rosebushes are considered medium height at about 4 feet, and are said to smell like apples. The Veilchenblau rose is actually purple with white streaks in the petals. This variety is an almost thornless climber. Blue Moon roses are hybrids that are not actually blue, but they are lilac with blue tints. Before Suntory and Florigene's breakthrough, Blue Moon roses were considered the best blue rose. The Blue Nile rose is another lavender hybrid that is celebrated for its strong rose fragrance.
Blue Roses in Literature
"The Glass Menagerie" is a heartbreaking and well-loved stage play written by Tennessee Williams in 1944. One character is Laura, a teenage girl who suffers with pleurosis, a respiratory condition that was more common before the wide use of antibiotics. The main symptom of pleurosis is painful breathing, and it is extremely debilitating. A man on whom Laura has had a crush for many years mis-heard her in high school when she told him she had pleurosis, he heard "blue roses." Blue Roses was his nickname for Laura for that reason.
So with all of that in mind, we must consider that blue roses = lies. They are not natural. Winterfell's "Glass Gardens" contain the holy grail of horticulturalists. But, GRRM is a well-known skeptic of religion, and I think an easy argument can be made that he views such holy grails as tainted and a source of corruption. Winter roses blue as frost are the sigil of lies, and, GRRM has already told their story:
GRRM has also already given us his own Glass Menagerie, in which a glass flower symbolizes humanity, corrupted:
Before I get too far off track, let me just say that Pleurisy = pleurosis = "blue roses" is a perfect explanation for Lyanna's voice being faint as a whisper. And, again, GRRM has already written of a "Lya" whose voice became faint as a whisper:
This Lya also just so happens to merge with a collective consciousness that strongly resembles the Weirnet, but again, I digress.
I think Lyanna was sick, and heavy with child. Rather than be born with the dead, I think her child was born from the dying. That goes for the wolf pups in Bran I as well. I think each she wolf lived long enough to whelp, but unlike the first, there was no Stag antler to end Lyanna's suffering.
Unless you count Ned.
Ned killed Lady to spare her a crueler death, and I believe he did the same for Lyanna.
Before I get too far off track, let me just say that Pleurisy = pleurosis = "blue roses" is a perfect explanation for Lyanna's voice being faint as a whisper. And, again, GRRM has already written of a "Lya" whose voice became faint as a whisper:
This Lya also just so happens to merge with a collective consciousness that strongly resembles the Weirnet, but again, I digress.
I think Lyanna was sick, and heavy with child. Rather than be born with the dead, I think her child was born from the dying. That goes for the wolf pups in Bran I as well. I think each she wolf lived long enough to whelp, but unlike the first, there was no Stag antler to end Lyanna's suffering.
Unless you count Ned.
Ned killed Lady to spare her a crueler death, and I believe he did the same for Lyanna.
Voice your forgetting what the thread is looking at.I don't have a dog in the race with respect to how Mama Direwolf died. The point being she didn't raise her neck and let the Stag kill her....They fought and she recieved a mortal wound.
If someone plunged it into her neck it wasn't natural cause.You see what i'm saying with regard to the "someone killed."That's my point.If you want to put forth Jon was cut out of Lyanna that's cool.Let's see your reasoning behind it. But to reiterate i don't think you can look at the mama Direwolf,exclude all the other pups except for Ghost and say its about Lyanna and him.
My bad. You're of course right. I was shadowboxing with BC. LOL
I can get behind the idea that Lyanna suffered a mortal wound while fighting. She was a direwolf after all. Just as Ned killed Arthur, perhaps Ashara wounded Lyanna. No tellin.
All we know is that Theon saw Lyanna spattered in gore, and that Ned saw her in a bed of blood. Beyond that, we have little upon which to base any speculation. But, speculate we must, and the she wolf in Bran I might be a great parallel for her violent end. Arya's Needle is likely another. Arya's ferocity and tendency to end trouble by killing someone is another. In addition to a niece, Lyanna also had a wolf-blooded sibling: Brandon. And Brandon liked to Bloody his Blade. Brandon also met a violent end.
So yes, I can definitely get behind thie idea that Lyanna too found a violent end, one more violent than mere childbirth. But still, childbirth itself can be rather violent. Do you have kids? Whelping is far easier for wolves than for women, particularly in the days before anesthesia.
Ned may have bloodied his blade (or even Dawn) to cut Jon from Lyanna. A truly horrific (and therefore, plausible LOL) thought, but not one that I have greatly considered. It would make for one incredibly heavy and haunting "Promise" if Lyanna were dying and begged Ned to cut her baby out. It would also explain the wolf-blood cause of death comment Ned gave us.
And I do not mean to say that the mamma-wolf scene is only about Lyanna & Jon, but that is a strong element of it for me. The other wolves are all rather peripheral. Two are dead. One is a dead end most likely (sorry Shaggydog). And then there were three: Summer, Nymeria, and Ghost. Four if we count Shaggy.
One of these direwolves is not like the others...
And one of these children of Winterfell was likely born from a she-wolf that lives only as a ghost in weirwood.
Can that be mere happenstance?