What is going on between those two? Does Sansa truly care for Petyr, or has she wisened up since going to Cersei with her dad's travel plans? Will she be his demise, and if you think so, how? What about LF? Does he have genuine affection for Sansa, or is she just another tool for him to get what he wants? I'm inclined to say yes, he does care, as he had this unhealthy obsession with Cat. On the other hand, he might be exacting his revenge on the Starks for feeling spurned by his beloved Cat-uh-lyn.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
My personal opinion is that Littlefinger is using Sansa for his own benefit. And it would be interesting if she would be the cause of his downfall. I think Sansa is adapting to the situation is in and will eventually be a more powerful player.
Not sure about the Stockholm syndrome with Sansa at this point. She thinks of and uses and learns Littlefinger's strategies. But she also thinks that he will "howl" when/if she tells him about the things she said to Harry during the dance. And then keeps saying them. Seems like she's branching out on her own, at least a bit.
Am assuming this has been brought up before, but am thinking that Littlefinger's calling himself Sansa's "father" might be a hint at his own delusion and downfall. Sansa told Cersei of her father's plans so she could stay in King's Landing. So she could do what she wanted. Didn't understand implications. And BOOM. But if Sansa wanted to go home to Winterfell sooner, say because she'd heard about Arya (gossip seems to get to the Vale), or about Ned and Littlefinger's interactions, or something else--if Sansa wanted to follow her plans and Littlefinger was in the way, could see her going to Royce or someone else and revealing her "father's" plans. And BOOM. But this time the boom would be understood and intended.
Or maybe I just want Littlefinger bested by someone.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
I have to reread that new chapter but I think that what she's saying by thinking what Petyr would say could he hear her, is that he wouldn't want her to be rude to him. I remember her thinking, 'I don't care what Petyr thinks, this guy is an arse', but I also think that Petyr knows her well enough that he anticipates she would take to him in this way, and it's exactly the way to get him. In other words, she (as well as Harry) play right into LF's hands. He purposely tells her to all but spread her legs for Harry, which automatically puts her in a defensive position. She meets him and he's arrogant, so again her defence is triggered. Her being rude to him, is ultimately what intrigues him about her. It's pretty subtle manipulation, but it's there.
Fair enough. But she's still pushing. Vs. being just frozen with Tyrion. Manipulated? Sure. But at least it's active. And done her own way. And skills she can use her own way later.
I certainly hope you're right on this and that defiant little girl is still in there and can act autonomously. Thing is she'll really have to bide her time because she can't get home any more. The Bolton's hold Winterfell and Stannis has not yet won that battle. If he does win or if she decides to make a break for the Wall or even the Free Cities, she seriously needs to learn how to make plans for herself.
This is worst part about Sansa. She has all this free time in a comfortable residence, physically I mean, and she never thinks 'how am I going to get out of this?' In contrast, Arya is always thinking of an exit plan when she's in a situation that doesn't suit her. Even Bran thought this way when Theon took over Winterfell. This part of her is why I think she has Stockholm Syndrome, she's empathising with her captor to the point of not thinking of escaping. She's preserving her life and focusing on the here and now, falling in with LR's plans rather than planing on how to get out of her situation. She used to do that when she was stuck in Lannister power, now she's a kitten on her back.
I agree that she gets caught up in the comfort. But seems like she and Bran and Arya are all in similar circumstances. Arya's list and Needle keep her tied to the Starks. But not in a "get back to my family" way. She wants revenge. And goes along with the Kindly Man (to some extent--though we don't know how much he always knows about what she does) to learn how to get her way. Same with Bran--he's barely breaking rules at all, far as I can see. And enjoying his flight. Getting fully engrossed in Greenseeing. Sansa--less mystical. But still a powerful "mentor." Enjoying the fact that she's good at this milieu--as Arya is good in hers. And Bran is good at his.
Seems like they are on similar paths. All dangerous. All at risk for getting caught/complacent in different kinds of darkness.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Here's the big difference between them though -- Sansa doesn't know she's being used. She believes she's been saved when in reality she's in a snare. With Bran, while we suspect he's being used in sinister manner, on the page he's not really. He's been called to be an important figure in the world of ASOIAF. With Sansa, we know she's in the clutches of a sinister agent. There is no doubt. She's not been called to serve a higher purpose. She's blind to all her other possibilities, admittedly they are not all appealing but they exist. She of the 3 is the victim and she doesn't even know it.
I agree that she's not fully aware of what Littlefinger is up to. Neither are readers--though I really doubt his "plan."
But really think Bran and Arya are being manipulated, too. Bran's been lured to the cave on a false hope. Now he's flying--why are the Children doing this? Why do they need him? We've no proof they intend to "help"--they've said nothing. Bran's been manipulated big time. And Arya--am not at all convinced the Kindly Man isn't well aware she was seeing via the cat. Or that Jaquen didn't seek her out. Arya seems all rebellious--and she is. But that doesn't mean she can't be manipulated. And the FM are up to something.
So, Sansa isn't alone as victim. Don't want to turn this into a "Sansa is the messiah" things because NO. But still think she and her siblings are in very similar places.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
So, Sansa isn't alone as victim. Don't want to turn this into a "Sansa is the messiah" things because NO. But still think she and her siblings are in very similar places.
This is quite perceptive. I've seen many Sansa: player or pawn threads, but would be interesting to start a discussion to contemplate who the pawns are in the series.
I'm right with you about the Bran part, and I'm not saying I disagree about Arya, I just never considered. But, Jaqen knows who Arya is long before she reveals herself. I don't subscribe to Syrio= Jaqen, necessarily, but if he is, it's even more whacked out that he was her teacher. Would demonstrate she'd been a target for a long time, much like Bran.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
So, Sansa isn't alone as victim. Don't want to turn this into a "Sansa is the messiah" things because NO. But still think she and her siblings are in very similar places.
This is quite perceptive. I've seen many Sansa: player or pawn threads, but would be interesting to start a discussion to contemplate who the pawns are in the series.
I'm right with you about the Bran part, and I'm not saying I disagree about Arya, I just never considered. But, Jaqen knows who Arya is long before she reveals herself. I don't subscribe to Syrio= Jaqen, necessarily, but if he is, it's even more whacked out that he was her teacher. Would demonstrate she'd been a target for a long time, much like Bran.
And, if I'm going to derail your point anyway--Quorin "chooses" Jon. Mance does, too. For his Starkness. Jon as acolyte doesn't work quite as well. But he has a few parallels with his siblings--not supernatural, which makes it more like Sansa. But still.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
So glad you shared this link. I really like Sweetsunray's posts but missed that she had done this one. They don't get nearly the amount of attention they deserve. Even if I don't always agree she obviously puts a lot of work into her theories.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
So glad you shared this link. I really like Sweetsunray's posts but missed that she had done this one. They don't get nearly the amount of attention they deserve. Even if I don't always agree she obviously puts a lot of work into her theories.
And, to keep on track with the thread: sort of fits the argument that Sansa (while often annoying) is like her siblings--being used as bit.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Post by serwalterpuffsalot on Aug 31, 2015 21:20:24 GMT
As far as Sansa knows LF has been nothing but helpful and i think stockholm syndrome is when you're in a situation where normally you'd hate this person (bank robber)but you've ended up feeling sympathy for them. Outwardly LF hasn't given her any reason to not trust him he brought her from Kingslanding away from the Lannisters and has started the process of arranging a marriage that would be beneficial to her and has told her everything she's wanted to hear. LF will have to mess up big time in front of her for her to flip on him, or possibly someone will inform her about him siding against her father or something
"And the triarch Belicho defeated the great hawk from the sea despite his sails not being fully inflated"
As far as Sansa knows LF has been nothing but helpful and i think stockholm syndrome is when you're in a situation where normally you'd hate this person (bank robber)but you've ended up feeling sympathy for them. Outwardly LF hasn't given her any reason to not trust him he brought her from Kingslanding away from the Lannisters and has started the process of arranging a marriage that would be beneficial to her and has told her everything she's wanted to hear. LF will have to mess up big time in front of her for her to flip on him, or possibly someone will inform her about him siding against her father or something
Good point--though he did kill Dontos. And Lyssa. And Lyssa said a lot before she took her moon-door flight.
So, Littlefinger has laid some ground for Sansa's potential distrust.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
As far as Sansa knows LF has been nothing but helpful and i think stockholm syndrome is when you're in a situation where normally you'd hate this person (bank robber)but you've ended up feeling sympathy for them. Outwardly LF hasn't given her any reason to not trust him he brought her from Kingslanding away from the Lannisters and has started the process of arranging a marriage that would be beneficial to her and has told her everything she's wanted to hear. LF will have to mess up big time in front of her for her to flip on him, or possibly someone will inform her about him siding against her father or something
Good point--though he did kill Dontos. And Lyssa. And Lyssa said a lot before she took her moon-door flight.
So, Littlefinger has laid some ground for Sansa's potential distrust.
The problem with using both of these murders as something to turn Sansa's opinion of LF is that at the time they were committed, even though both are drastic actions, they actually had the end effect of protecting Sansa. I don't think that Sansa has heard or discovered enough as of yet to even put a meaning to Lysa's words/confession. Eventually she will hear or see just enough to make it all click, or at least I hope she does. I just don't think that she's there quite yet.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
As far as Sansa knows LF has been nothing but helpful and i think stockholm syndrome is when you're in a situation where normally you'd hate this person (bank robber)but you've ended up feeling sympathy for them. Outwardly LF hasn't given her any reason to not trust him he brought her from Kingslanding away from the Lannisters and has started the process of arranging a marriage that would be beneficial to her and has told her everything she's wanted to hear. LF will have to mess up big time in front of her for her to flip on him, or possibly someone will inform her about him siding against her father or something
Good point--though he did kill Dontos. And Lyssa. And Lyssa said a lot before she took her moon-door flight.
So, Littlefinger has laid some ground for Sansa's potential distrust.
I think Sansa knows Dontos would have given her up under the right pressure so i believe she sees that as a necessary evil and I also think she believes LF saved her from Lysa. BUT that line about " I've always loved Cat" or something along those lines might come back to bite him.
"And the triarch Belicho defeated the great hawk from the sea despite his sails not being fully inflated"
As far as Sansa knows LF has been nothing but helpful and i think stockholm syndrome is when you're in a situation where normally you'd hate this person (bank robber)but you've ended up feeling sympathy for them. Outwardly LF hasn't given her any reason to not trust him he brought her from Kingslanding away from the Lannisters and has started the process of arranging a marriage that would be beneficial to her and has told her everything she's wanted to hear. LF will have to mess up big time in front of her for her to flip on him, or possibly someone will inform her about him siding against her father or something
Good point--though he did kill Dontos. And Lyssa. And Lyssa said a lot before she took her moon-door flight.
So, Littlefinger has laid some ground for Sansa's potential distrust.
Ah, thanks, yet another reason to start reading the novels again. I got bored again.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones