You are right, it would be very disorienting to see such a change. Since she adds "you're spoiling it" at the end, I kept dismissing everything else she says. But she did try to help in some way.
Though she does stay with Joff instead of going after Arya. So, your point re: the problem--it is still in place.
Is the cost huge? I mean I get why "WE" are so upset, Lady is a direwolf, it was joff's fault, it really hurts both girls especially Sansa, it creates a rift between Sansa and her father, Ned and Robert, Cersei and everyone. But if you see it in context, Arya attacked the crown prince in a way that maimed him for life and one of Stark pets died as a result. Not that bad actually. Mycah is another story, I do not think Sansa has paid for Mycah yet.
Yeah--"payment" in these novels seems like a subjective thing.
But I do think Sansa's disconnect from her family, then choosing Joff over her family, then the horror of Ned's death and her beating filled cruise in Kings' Landing--she's paid some. She's messed up A LOT! But she's paid, too. All messy and miserable--classic Martin.
"WE" think she must be upset because of marrying a Lannister, she is mortified because she is marrying the dwarf Lannister. I think she is more than right in hating the whole ceremony and trying to disturb that (I really am not a monster ), but this is not defying this wedding or Lannisters, this is humiliating Tyrion (again, from another Stark).
Oh yes. She's angry and horrified that her life has gone so horribly wrong. She feels humiliated, so she humiliates him. Very pre-teen mean girls. With a torture based twist.
Stupid. Mean. She's attacking the wrong people. Tyron might have helped her if she'd let him.
Still--I do get her position. And I get Tyrion's misery in the moment, too. No winners here (I think).
Oh, I see. I read it as Jon defending his last shred of dignity, that he was equal in everything else with NW, but he was an honorable man, just like his father.
Yup. Like I said, the moment might just be that. But the spurt of violence. . . we've seen evidence the wolves affect the kids and vice versa. Seems like there's at least a chance here. Though I doubt we'll ever know for sure.
Oh, I did not mean it in a negative way (although after being so negative about her in all the post, I am not surprised you would read it that way). It was in continuation of "things are not as they seem when it comes to Sansa". It is hard to think of Sansa as a power hungry person, since she has been so powerless all this time. But it has been by design. My points about pulling ranks and liking power was to somehow demonstrate that her "partnering up" with LF is not surprising, since their personalities and what they want in life actually aligns nicely. She is the innocent of the two, but she is not inherently different.
1. I didn't really mean it as negative, either. Just seems like a Stark trait.
2. I agree on the Littlefinger angle--Sansa does see him as a way to deal and potentially "win" back her home. So, yes, the team up doesn't seem out of the blue.
Though I do wonder what will happen when/iof she ever connects the dots based on what Lysa said at the moon door.
Oh, yes, I was reading her posts in Warg-blocking thread after my post and thought they go nicely together, although her theories are substantially better argued and researched.
I did mean Alyssa, thanks for correcting me. What I meant with immortality was not necessarily vitality, but continuity. Alyssa is immortal, although in sadness. She "cannot end" and it is very tragic. Read my response to the next quote for more elaboration.
Well, I agree with Starks(especially the wargs) as the liminal people. So, if their direwolves is their connection to the underworld, Sansa lost hers. She did not belong to the snowy garden, and she didn't feel the cold. She lost her "death". Death seems warm because it is no longer dangerous. Also, in KL, when she wanted to commit suicide, she didn't. Not because she loved living, because she did not like being dead.
Okay--on the bolded--I'm loving that idea!!! I still like the idea that Sansa is connected to the dead through Lady, but I like this a lot, too.
And it fits with some of the imagery and themes in the novel re: being brought low and rebirth.
If Sansa's no longer connected to death. . . that could have some very interesting implications. . . I need to think on this.
I think I understand your point is based on Stark never losing their connections to their wolves, even after they are dead, I just think this works too.
Agreed.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Yes, I argue like you that Sansa still holds to the knightly (and romantic) ideal. It is often argued by several theorists that Sansa has adapted to reality - that she doesn't believe anymore that true knights exist and that she cannot desire a handsome young knight anymore; that any contrast between Loras and Sandor is over and done with by the end of aFfC. After her "they are not true knights" (being beaten and stripped), she has discussion with the Hound at the roof of a tower prior to the battle of Blackwater, where he asserts that there are no gods and no true knights. She retreats thinking to herself that true knights must exist, that not all the stories can be lies. Furthermore, we see her resolve her ideals with what is through fantasy (falsely remembered kisses as well as wishing for Loras). Any dismissal by her of Loras is done in a tone of "settling". But "settling" does not dampen desires, dreams and fantasy. IMO her arc is very much about how Sansa internally copes with the patriarchal demands of her as a girl and woman on the one hand, including those demands that abhor her, and the integration of her real life experiences. She deals with both via her fantasy world. It's the sole world where neither reality nor people can make her do anything she does not want. It's her way to rebel and preserve herself, but also to allow real life experiences to seep in and discover in her fantasy what she truly wants.
I agree.
Though I'd also say that it seems to be an ideal she shares with her family--with Bran and Ned. Even Arya has these ideals. And Jon is idealistic, too.
They may not always work out, but that idealism, the insistence on believing in holding oneself and others to a higher standard, even a belief in heroes (despite their faults)--given what's coming to the land and the history of heroes--seems like there's a need for "belief." Not just a psychological survival method. But the stuff that could help rally a cause and win a fight.
Thematically similar things happen for Arya too - her arc is partly too about how she deals with the patriarchic expectations of her. She goes about it differently though.
Yup! For all of Sansa and Arya's differences, weirdly, Mordane got it right: when it comes to the wolves, Sansa is like Arya. The girls aren't entirely different.
Yes, Arya is the deadly Valkyrie, but Sansa has some definite Fate (Norn) qualities there, determining a man's death as much as Arya does (just in a different way). I haven't outright said that yet, but since her chapters give us the most foreshadowing scenes thus far... it's not difficult to connect her with being a Norn.
Oh, yes, I agree.
That scene when she's overlooking the Vale is almost. . . blatant. Watching the bird rise over the golden Vale--I've said before it reminded me of the story of the Griffen King. Like she's seeing the past come back. Which is a kind of fate. Seeing what will happen in the future.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.