I really should read more before posting. You covered this in great detail a few posts after. I'm like the little yappy dog, I'm piddling my thoughts way too quickly. LOL
The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.
I don't know if I've ever asked you about it, or seen your response to it, but what is your opinion on Val returning from her trip to Tormund garbed in white and with suddenly blue eyes?
Before
He is stone and she is flame. The king's eyes were blue bruises, sunk deep in a hollow face. He wore grey plate, a fur-trimmed cloak of cloth-of-gold flowing from his broad shoulders. His breastplate had a flaming heart inlaid above his own. Girding his brows was a red-gold crown with points like twisting flames. Val stood beside him, tall and fair. They had crowned her with a simple circlet of dark bronze, yet she looked more regal in bronze than Stannis did in gold. Her eyes were grey and fearless, unflinching. Beneath an ermine cloak, she wore white and gold. Her honey-blond hair had been done up in a thick braid that hung over her right shoulder to her waist. The chill in the air had put color in her cheeks.
After
They look as though they belong together. Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings. Her breath was white as well … but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold. It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.
She just went on a trip north and returned garbed differently and with changed eyes.
IIRC, GRRM made note of the eye color as being a mistake. Or, at least that it was a mistake he is prone to making.
I suppose it doesn't matter to me, because I look into a woman's eyes every day that are blue, and then, they are grey. Mrs Voice has eyes that look like the sea and sky on a stormy day. Blue, then indigo, then grey. Sometimes if it is particularly sunny outside, they look turquoise.
Unlike other eye colors, blue eye colors are caused by light diffusion rather than pigmentation. This actually speaks to yet another facet of the OP. Checking... Oops, no, it looks like I left it out of this version. LOL
Well, you've probably heard me talk before about milkglass and light diffusion. It came up a lot in this old thread at the W. If you take a look at these physical phenomena, you will see why I associate Others, milkglass, blue eyes, sunrise and the greatsword Dawn with one another so very constantly:
So blue eyes are actually "alive with light" irl, instead of being pigmented in that color the way other eye colors are.
In the case of albinism, the iris itself is completely transparent. The red color that shows through is actually the person's (or wolf's) illuminated retina. Every human has red retinas (hence red-eye in photos with too bright a flash), it's just that in the case of albinism, that happens to be all you can see. I say "human" because other animals have different colors of eye-shine, and that is often tied to the structure of their retina. Horses and dogs often have eyes like blue stars, instead of red, when lit up at night.
For the rest of us, our eye colors are created by melanin in the iris.
So while they were grey, then blue, that can simply be caused by the ambient light itself. Mrs Voice's eyes are like that (and I vaguely recall BC describing his mother's eyes similarly). While Val's eyes are surely unique and beautiful, unlike the Others and Night's Queen, they do not shine like blue stars.
Val might have changed clothes, but when she left she was also wearing white. So it's a bit of a stretch. I still like the idea of it, and I'll like it even more if she seduces Jon, but Val seems quite human.
I mean, accounting for historical inaccuracies as time passes, isn't she a dead ringer for the Night Queen?
As the sun began to set the shadows of the towers lengthened and the wind blew harder, sending gusts of dry dead leaves rattling through the yards. The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan's stories, the tale of Night's King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. "And that was the fault in him," she would add, "for all men must know fear." A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.
Assume that the "pale skin" was actually just her outfit (though Val already is pale as she's fair skinned), and that the cold skin is just an add on to the legend (though Val also is cold at the moment), and you have Val when she came back. A pale woman in white, with blue eyes.
Heck I mean if you really wanted to get into it too, Val is first glimpsed returning from someone atop the Wall, just like the Night Queen was
Black brothers, northmen, free folk, Thenns, queen's men, all of them fell quiet, listening. Five heartbeats passed. Ten. Twenty. Then Owen the Oaf tittered, and Jon Snow could breathe again. "Two blasts," he announced. "Wildlings." Val.
Val's fair, but her skin isn't described as being cold as ice, nor as white as the moon.
But I do agree that GRRM seems to enjoy playing with this "woman glimpsed from atop the wall" scenario quite a bit. We've had Val and Alys Karstark. And Dany saw that blue flower growing from a chink.
That blue flower could be Val. Or maybe NQ's body is still filling the air with "sweetness".
Seems to me if you wanted to look for a Night Queen, that is currently alive, than Val pretty much checks off all the required marks.
Not so.
Night's Queen is also referred to as a corpse. Val is very much alive. Unlike Coldhands, she does not reek of decay. Unlike Othor and Jafer, she can banter and carry on a conversation. We are never told Night's Queen spoke... which is quite ominous.
I'd like to think she was a female Other/white walker, and beautiful... (see my January Jones fantasies upthread LOL)
...but she might have just been a dead lady.
And if you think NK banging a dead woman is too weird for GRRM, you haven't read Meathouse Man (which is essentially a story about Night's King imo).
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I really should read more before posting. You covered this in great detail a few posts after. I'm like the little yappy dog, I'm piddling my thoughts way too quickly. LOL
LOL! No not at all! I'm glad you felt the impulse to say that. Too few people are aware of our nation's actual history. And as I said, you'll notice I don't exactly mind talking about this theory. LOL
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I don't know if I've ever asked you about it, or seen your response to it, but what is your opinion on Val returning from her trip to Tormund garbed in white and with suddenly blue eyes?
Before
After
She just went on a trip north and returned garbed differently and with changed eyes.
IIRC, GRRM made note of the eye color as being a mistake. Or, at least that it was a mistake he is prone to making.
I suppose it doesn't matter to me, because I look into a woman's eyes every day that are blue, and then, they are grey. Mrs Voice has eyes that look like the sea and sky on a stormy day. Blue, then indigo, then grey. Sometimes if it is particularly sunny outside, they look turquoise.
Unlike other eye colors, blue eye colors are caused by light diffusion rather than pigmentation. This actually speaks to yet another facet of the OP. Checking... Oops, no, it looks like I left it out of this version. LOL
Well, you've probably heard me talk before about milkglass and light diffusion. It came up a lot in this old thread at the W. If you take a look at these physical phenomena, you will see why I associate Others, milkglass, blue eyes, sunrise and the greatsword Dawn with one another so very constantly:
So blue eyes are actually "alive with light" irl, instead of being pigmented in that color the way other eye colors are.
In the case of albinism, the iris itself is completely transparent. The red color that shows through is actually the person's (or wolf's) illuminated retina. Every human has red retinas (hence red-eye in photos with too bright a flash), it's just that in the case of albinism, that happens to be all you can see. I say "human" because other animals have different colors of eye-shine, and that is often tied to the structure of their retina. Horses and dogs often have eyes like blue stars, instead of red, when lit up at night.
For the rest of us, our eye colors are created by melanin in the iris.
So while they were grey, then blue, that can simply be caused by the ambient light itself. Mrs Voice's eyes are like that (and I vaguely recall BC describing his mother's eyes similarly). While Val's eyes are surely unique and beautiful, unlike the Others and Night's Queen, they do not shine like blue stars.
Val might have changed clothes, but when she left she was also wearing white. So it's a bit of a stretch. I still like the idea of it, and I'll like it even more if she seduces Jon, but Val seems quite human.
I mean, accounting for historical inaccuracies as time passes, isn't she a dead ringer for the Night Queen?
Assume that the "pale skin" was actually just her outfit (though Val already is pale as she's fair skinned), and that the cold skin is just an add on to the legend (though Val also is cold at the moment), and you have Val when she came back. A pale woman in white, with blue eyes.
Heck I mean if you really wanted to get into it too, Val is first glimpsed returning from someone atop the Wall, just like the Night Queen was
Val's fair, but her skin isn't described as being cold as ice, nor as white as the moon.
But I do agree that GRRM seems to enjoy playing with this "woman glimpsed from atop the wall" scenario quite a bit. We've had Val and Alys Karstark. And Dany saw that blue flower growing from a chink.
That blue flower could be Val. Or maybe NQ's body is still filling the air with "sweetness".
Seems to me if you wanted to look for a Night Queen, that is currently alive, than Val pretty much checks off all the required marks.
Not so.
Night's Queen is also referred to as a corpse. Val is very much alive. Unlike Coldhands, she does not reek of decay. Unlike Othor and Jafer, she can banter and carry on a conversation. We are never told Night's Queen spoke... which is quite ominous.
I'd like to think she was a female Other/white walker, and beautiful... (see my January Jones fantasies upthread LOL)
...but she might have just been a dead lady.
And if you think NK banging a dead woman is too weird for GRRM, you haven't read Meathouse Man (which is essentially a story about Night's King imo).
The banter between you and LmL on the "Light Refraction" thread was classic... -rotflol-
Back to the topic at hand, I believe that the Pact marked the beginning of one such time in which mankind realized that there was a song of the earth, and that they could dance to it rather than destroy it.
It may be rather significant that humans came from the same earth as every other species; perhaps this destruction is the tune to which we were made for dancing. Evolutionary stagnation is not unheard of, and sometimes an ecosystem ends up better off in the long run if Mother Nature decides to hit the reset button via seismic/volcanic activity and related events.
I believe the issue at the core of Human-Children conflicts is not merely the burning and cutting down of weirwoods, but the Singers' unease with the inherent human passion and zeal to reshape the world around us in a preferred image. This ushering out of the old and bringing in the new (a concept for which fire is frequently used as a metaphor in the text) may very well be just part of the Song, and all for the good. Speaking of fire, we're also told in-story that its revelations are very easily misinterpreted...
Perhaps the Singers simply "misread the fires" of humankind's growth and rise to prominence. They mistook a new part of the song's harmony for a discordant, abominable evil. This line of is thinking likely colored by the old races' own fear of being left behind by the new world, a perspective that may have heavily altered the natural course of the Song, as is so common an outcome for those stricken with the prophecy bug.
ETA: I'm now very curious about what the rest of the weirwood collective might see when one of their own kind is burned.
Sorry to change the subject...thought I'd post this before I get too deep into AFfC and totally forget about this. Referring to the quoted posts above, Aeron Damphair seems to have some thoughts on this subject:
"Rise," he told the sputtering boy as he slapped him on his naked back. "You have drowned and been returned to us. What is dead can never die." "But rises." The boy coughed violently, bringing up more water. "Rises again." Every word was bought with pain, but that was the way of the world; a man must fight to live. "Rises again." Emmond staggered to his feet. "Harder. And stronger." "You belong to the god now," Aeron told him. - The Prophet, AFfC
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
Running with the whole Val thing, I've always found it interesting that we are essentially quite markedly told that Val stole Jarl, and not that Jarl stole Val
"The good woman at the brazier," Mance Rayder went on, "is Dalla." The pregnant woman smiled shyly. "Treat her like you would any queen, she is carrying my child." He turned to the last two. "This beauty is her sister Val. Young Jarl beside her is her latest pet."
Jarl is HER toy, not she's HIS toy. She picked him out. Which is interesting because she does indicate that she's fine with the whole wildling tradition of being stolen, and she invites anybody to try and steal her. She'll accept whoever can catch her. Yet with Jarl she caught him. Jarl ain't her husband, he's just her plaything til she gets bored with him.
GRRM made note of the eye color as being a mistake
I've always heard the opposite. That he said it wasn't a mistake. The fact that he also described in the very same book, only a few chapters before, that they were grey also seems to indicate it's not a mistake. This isn't Renly or Qyburn's eyes changing book to book, this is Val's eyes changing in the same book, and GRRM having Jon explicitly note how they're blue as opposed to how the rest of her is now all white.
Val's fair, but her skin isn't described as being cold as ice, nor as white as the moon.
I did say accounting for inaccuracies. It's been 8,000 years, there's no reason to assume the story as told today is 100% accurate.
And Val was cold at the time, and her clothing was pure white, both of which I did say were stand ins. At the very least, she's strongly paralleling her at the moment, no?
Still I agree. Val's beauty cannot be understated in my head-canon. But does being lovely make her into Night's Queen?
I'm hesitant to make that leap.
Well actually if you examine Val's beauty throughout the series, you'll note that she's been getting hotter and hotter every time Jon sees her. I'll quote FFR's post on the matter as he's the one who first noticed this
First in ASOS when Jon first meets Val he only describes her as
a pretty blond woman
When he next meets her it is during his attempt to parly with Mance during the siege at the Wall, there he describes her as
Val looked at him with pale grey eyes...She was as fair as he'd remembered, slender, full-breasted, graceful even at rest, with high sharp cheekbones and a thick braid of honey-colored hair that fell to her waist.
It's interesting to note that despite Jon's quick almost dismissive view of her in his first meeting, his second meeting makes the reader believe she made a big impression on him when he first saw her. And during the second meeting he does indeed seem very attracted to her.
Then in ADWD as they are burning the "Horn of Joramun" Val is present and Jon describes her as
Val stood beside him, tall and fair. They had crowned her with a simple circlet of dark bronze, yet she looked more regal in bronze than Stannis did in gold. Her eyes were grey and fearless, unflinching. Beneath an ermine cloak, she wore white and gold. Her honey-blond hair had been done up in a thick braid that hung over her right shoulder to her waist. The chill in the air had put color in her cheeks.
So now Jon is viewing her as regal and fearless. And once again her eyes are described as grey.
Then Jon views her up on the battlements above the King's tower, here Jon thinks
She looks lonely, ... Lonely, and lovely...Val did not need to smile; she would have turned men's heads in any court in the wide world.
Notice the evolution of Val from a "pretty blond girl" to in Jon's eyes what must be a legendary beauty with a regal bearing.
It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.
(he makes some other point I'm sure you'd like, check out the full post if you have time)
Val started off as nothing more than a pretty girl, to now being essentially one of the hottest girls of all time. Recall even that when we first met her nobody was exactly stomping at the bits to try and steal her among the wildlings. Sure she was with Jarl at the time but as I've pointed out in this post they weren't husband and wife, and she took him, not the other way around. She was still available, and she quickly became available once more when Jarl died. Nobody tries to steal her or anything. Then all of the sudden Jon and all of Stannis' knights think she's incredible. She keeps becoming more and more alluring as the series progresses. You don't find that similar to how the NQ just completely enraptured the NK?
Well define alive. Cause if those eyes did indeed change colour, then clearly something happened to her. And suddenly having blue eyes has always been associated with the Others and wights.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
The exact same genes as the parent tree...that to me sounds more like the weirwoods we see with their intricately woven roots that act as a nervous system transmitting information
this makes a lot of sense.
But in nature, if a plant is about to die, would it not hurry and produce seeds? perhaps the children have a weirwood nursery for this purpose.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
Mrs Voice has eyes that look like the sea and sky on a stormy day. Blue, then indigo, then grey. Sometimes if it is particularly sunny outside, they look turquoise.
While Val's eyes are surely unique and beautiful, unlike the Others and Night's Queen, they do not shine like blue stars.
I have been looking into the Others/wights blue eyes and came up with this collection:
pale blue (x2), sparkling blue, burning blue (x2), shining blue, cold blue, bright blue, bitter blue, deep blue, burning stars.
I need to read your chat with LML, it sounds rather interesting. But from what i can gather blue eyes can cover quite a range:
starting with the grey of the Starks moving on to the pale blue (with a sparkle) etc of the Others to the pale blue, purple and lilac and the Lyseni valyrians and to the darker blue and violet like the Targaryans and Daynes.
Enough variety to be both confusing and intriguing.
Well define alive. Cause if those eyes did indeed change colour, then clearly something happened to her. And suddenly having blue eyes has always been associated with the Others and wights.
One thing that should not be forgotten about Val is her name. We all know how Martin loves to play the game 'what's in a name'.
Val-yrian.
She nearly has the hair colour too.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
The exact same genes as the parent tree...that to me sounds more like the weirwoods we see with their intricately woven roots that act as a nervous system transmitting information
this makes a lot of sense.
But in nature, if a plant is about to die, would it not hurry and produce seeds? perhaps the children have a weirwood nursery for this purpose.
Not if it doesn't produce that way to begin with. There is huge grove of Aspen trees in Utah that grows the same way. They live 100-150 years old so the "mother tree" has already died but her offspring carry her exact genetics.
The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.
Not if it doesn't produce that way to begin with. There is huge grove of Aspen trees in Utah that grows the same way. They live 100-150 years old so the "mother tree" has already died but her offspring carry her exact genetics.
i was thinking of an isolated plant, not allowed to grow from runners, ie its runners are pruned.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
Not if it doesn't produce that way to begin with. There is huge grove of Aspen trees in Utah that grows the same way. They live 100-150 years old so the "mother tree" has already died but her offspring carry her exact genetics.
i was thinking of an isolated plant, not allowed to grow from runners, ie its runners are pruned.
Gotchya. I've never heard of a plant changing the way it reproduces. I suspect in the example you gave it would eventually just die.
The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.
Gotchya. I've never heard of a plant changing the way it reproduces. I suspect in the example you gave it would eventually just die.
Biologist to the rescue! Lol. It is not that uncommon for plants to be able to reproduce both asexually (i.e. via above- or underground runners of some sort) and sexually by producing seeds. The fact that we often see weirwood trees in groves supports the asexual reproduction argument (although they also could have been planted that way), as does their apparent connection via their root system. But even if this is their primary means of reproduction, it doesn't mean they couldn't also produce seeds. Perhaps this would have to be triggered by a certain environmental stimulus- maybe the end of a long summer? Or maybe, like many (but not all) trees, weirwoods pollinate one another, so seeds are only produced if two weirwoods are growing within a certain distance of one another. Of course we have never heard of them flowering, which is kind of a prerequisite for seed production... but then again, maybe this is also a rare event and the current late summer/fall/now winter is not the season for it. Maybe they flower in the spring, like most trees. It is also possible that, like oaks for example, a weirwood must reach a certain age before it begins to produce seeds. But rather than 60-80 years, it might take them hundreds or thousands to reach that stage.
Bottom line: from the evidence we have, there is simply no way to be sure whether they would produce seeds or not. For Jojen's sake, I hope they do.
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
Mrs Voice has eyes that look like the sea and sky on a stormy day. Blue, then indigo, then grey. Sometimes if it is particularly sunny outside, they look turquoise.
Dude, ya kinda went all Howland Reed on us there. LOL!
Well actually if you examine Val's beauty throughout the series, you'll note that she's been getting hotter and hotter every time Jon sees her. I'll quote FFR's post on the matter as he's the one who first noticed this
It makes more sense to me that Jon is just changing the way he sees her. Their first time he's just been brought before the KBtW and has to convince him that he's a crow-come-over. Not exactly the time to be ogling a chick in the back of the room. The later descriptions come after Ygritte is dead and as time has moved on, so has Jon.
LOL! No not at all! I'm glad you felt the impulse to say that. Too few people are aware of our nation's actual history. And as I said, you'll notice I don't exactly mind talking about this theory. LOL
As someone else said above, history is written by the victors. Sadly. Sidenote - At Open House with Mini Me this week I learned, much to my delight, that true stories about and by Native Americans are being taught in not only her US History Class, but also English. Bran's connection to the weirwood tree seems very much like a Vision Quest. Bran is "almost a man grown", he goes hungry, he's lead by an elder (BR), in a sacred site and supported by his tribe (Leaf, Meera, etc.).
Val's fair, but her skin isn't described as being cold as ice, nor as white as the moon.
Technically, it is once.
The sound was shocking, ear-piercing, thick with agony. Varamyr fell, writhing, and the 'cat was screaming too . . . and high, high in the eastern sky, against the wall of cloud, Jon saw the eagle burning. For a heartbeat it flamed brighter than a star, wreathed in red and gold and orange, its wings beating wildly at the air as if it could fly from the pain. Higher it flew, and higher, and higher still.
The scream brought Val out of the tent, white-faced. "What is it, what's happened?" Varamyr's wolves were fighting each other, and the shadowcat had raced off into the trees, but the man was still twisting on the ground. "What's wrong with him?" Val demanded, horrified. "Where's Mance?" ASoS Jon X
Ellaria Sand's different reactions to Oberyn's death between book and show is a good illustration of this; the TV version of the story glorifies bloody vengeance in a way that GRRM repeatedly and emphatically discourages.
This was the biggest disappointment to me (so far). In the books she's the voice of reason. She doesn't want to do anything to continue the cycle. "Where does it end?!"
The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.