I think Bran's intimate knowledge might be due to forces that are operating the other way around. Rather than be BtB reincarnated, I think that as a descendant of BtB ("Your blood makes you a greenseer") Bran is picking up on arcane, but Stark, influences from long ago.
Now that I am finally caught up I wanted to come back to this. You make some very interesting points. I'm still not completely sold that the NK will return. The "threat" IMO is just the resurface of the Others. BUT I will keep this in mind and reserve the right to eat crow.
The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.
It is also possible that, like oaks for example, a weirwood must reach a certain age before it begins to produce seeds. But rather than 60-80 years, it might take them hundreds or thousands to reach that stage.
yes, or bamboo which grows by runners and may only flower once a 100 years depending on the specie.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
Lol. I do think she is right more often than not. It's not that I don't consider the timelines to be somewhat flexible, but I don't think there is any way that the Yi Ti emperors were visiting Westeros and building black stone structures after the First Men had already arrived. That would have to be in the records somewhere, if it had happened, and it isn't. Those structures are older than the FM, so unless the timelines are off by over 2,000 years, BSE wasn't involved. And if he never set foot in Westeros, he didn't cause the Long Night.
But that's ok, I can live with it. Lol. On to better explanations that at least roughly fit the timelines we are given!
Been there
I was trying to connect this theory to Valyria for a long time. The import of Valyrian-ness in the ASOIAF-fandom was messing with my head. LOL
While I completely agree with the bolded part, the text doesn't seem to support it. Here are the descriptions we get of it, from Bran, ASOS:
The yards were small forests where spindly trees rubbed their bare branches together and dead leaves scuttled like roaches across patches of old snow. There were trees growing where the stables had been, and a twisted white weirwood pushing up through the gaping hole in the roof of the burned kitchen. Even Summer was not at ease here.
The Reeds decided that they would sleep in the kitchens, a stone octagon with a broken Dome. It looked to offer better shelter than most of the other buildings, even though a crooked weirwood had burst up through the slate floor beside the huge central well, stretching slantwise toward the hole in the roof, its bone-white branches reaching for the sun. It was a queer kind of tree, skinnier than any other weirwood that Bran had ever seen and faceless as well, but it made him feel as if the old gods were with him here, at least.
Skinny and faceless - the tree reminds me a bit of Arya. Lol.
Great points. And my head-canon is proving to be as shabby as the roof of that burned kitchen. I really need a reread.
Mayhaps the Nightfort is located where it is, then, because a weirwood was sacrificed at the location. It does seem to be a recently sprouting tree.
So while I was perusing around in this chapter, this Black Gate description really stood out to me:
The Black Gate, Sam had called it, but it wasn’t black at all. It was white weirwood, and there was a face on it. A glow came from the wood, like milk and moonlight, so faint it scarcely seemed to touch anything beyond the door itself, not even Sam standing right before it. The face was old and pale, wrinkled and shrunken. It looks dead. Its mouth was closed, and its eyes; its cheeks were sunken, its brow withered, its chin sagging. If a man could live for a thousand years and never die but just grow older, his face might come to look like that. The door opened its eyes. They were white too, and blind. “Who are you?” the door asked, and the well whispered, “Who-who-who-who-who-who who.”
First, it's interesting that the white wood seems to give off a glow - this is the exact opposite of the black stone that drinks the light.
Oh yes. That is one of the passages that made me associate the Others with Weirwods:
The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.
And the Others and their swords are also associated with milk.
Also, the face is blind. To me, this suggests the gate is not connected to the weirnet; otherwise it should be able to see.
Very interesting idea. I was thinking of it as a carving made in a sapless root, but you're absolutely right. The book says that they are blind. Thus, they cannot be used to see.
I highly recommend reading it. It's not long, it'll take an hour or two, tops. And it has a number of very interesting parallels/similarities to ASOIAF - almost to the point that one could wonder if the story took place at Winterfell before there was a castle, and before there were COTF, and at a time when fire dragons still lived in Westeros. In fact, this could be a story from that ancient civilization I believe lived there before the Dawn Age, the one that somehow went completely extinct (or nearly completely, as the Daynes probably descend from them, along with some others). Just do it - you won't regret it.
Well the wights did rip apart Sam and Gilly's garron, and IIRC they were eating its entrails. But I do agree that this part could be inaccurate, as Dany is also accused of feeding babies to her dragons, and in her case we know this is a gross exaggeration and misrepresentation of one accidental child eating incident that she had nothing to do with and in fact went out of her way to prevent in the future.
They ripped it apart, and pulled out its entrails, but I don't think they ate them.
Regarding Dany's dragon eating little Hazzea... I guess that could be called an accident, but if I kept a dragon as a pet, and it got loose... I wouldn't be surprised if it ate people.
So while it is an exaggeration to say Dany is feeding babies to her dragons, it isn't an exaggeration to say that Dany is the mother of baby-eating dragons.
Yuck! Lol. I do agree that Craster's babies are most likely not being eaten by wights. At this point, I can't even speculate on what they are for. The neverborn dragonlord babies are much more interesting to me.
I've always heard the opposite. That he said it wasn't a mistake. The fact that he also described in the very same book, only a few chapters before, that they were grey also seems to indicate it's not a mistake. This isn't Renly or Qyburn's eyes changing book to book, this is Val's eyes changing in the same book, and GRRM having Jon explicitly note how they're blue as opposed to how the rest of her is now all white.
I don't remember ever seeing a SSM that affirms Val's eye-color change was indeed a change. I do remember watching an interview with him on youtube in which he described making eye color mistakes, and needing to fix them.
And really, I don't think in Val's case that it is even a mistake.
It's just that some blue eyes are greyer than other blue eyes. It's a result of less melanin, and thus, allows for greater degrees of light diffusion. In this way, the eyes (like the Wall) have "moods," and can be different colors depending on the type of light they scatter.
I did say accounting for inaccuracies. It's been 8,000 years, there's no reason to assume the story as told today is 100% accurate.
And Val was cold at the time, and her clothing was pure white, both of which I did say were stand ins. At the very least, she's strongly paralleling her at the moment, no?
No reason to assume that the story is 100% accurate, but it is the only story we have.
And sure, Val is definitely a stand in for NQ and strongl paralleling her at that moment. I completely agree. She was glimpsed from atop the Wall, and is making Sworn Brothers swoon. The Lord Commander himself considers making her Lady of Winterfell... which is really saying somehting.
But beyond such associations, she hasn't done much. NQ took the seed and soul of the 13th man to lead the NW. And unlike NQ, her eyes aren't emanating light like stars. They are simply grey and blue.
And Val isn't even the only woman in the series to strongl parallel NQ. There are many others. Mel is most obvious (ensnared a "King" with strange sorceries, made terrible sacrifices, took a king's seed and soul, glamourous, might be dead), but she isn't alone.
Dany also strongly parallels NQ. She too took a king's seed and soul, and ensnared his people with strange sorceries. She even conceived a terrible half-human child, but there is no evidence NQ ever had a child.
There is also Sansa. Glimpsed from atop the Eyrie. The Lord was enraptured by her pale beauty, stole her, brought her to his castle, built structures made of ice with her, and forced himself upon her in the act of stealing a kiss.
And of course, there is Cersei. Cersei too was stolen by a king. And Cersei took his seed, quite literally killed it, and slowly took his soul. One gets the feeling GRRM hasn't had the best of luck with women. LOL
There is also Catelyn. Ned was the Sworn Brother required to marry her after Brandon's death. Catelyn never liked the godswood, and she eventually convinced Ned to leave it... sending him to play at being a king. She eventually became a Corpse Queen herself. The Corpse woman once betrothed to a dead Brandon Stark.
So while Val is beautiful, and looks good dressed in white, she has done little in the way of being a Night's Queen.
I may be wrong about the original Night's Queen and Night's King being "alive" still, and on their way home (Winter Homecoming lol), but I think they do at least represent an archetype that is a fundamental one in GRRM's universe. There are many characters who are partially playing those roles, and I think he enjoys reusing the tormented hero + succubus story over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.
Well actually if you examine Val's beauty throughout the series, you'll note that she's been getting hotter and hotter every time Jon sees her. I'll quote FFR's post on the matter as he's the one who first noticed this
Very cool stuff, but of course Val is getting hotter. Jon is surrounded by dudes and refugees... and she's a fucking hawt northern beauty. And winter is coming.
If Jon had any brains, he'd be warm in her bed. But the guy knows nothing. LOL
(he makes some other point I'm sure you'd like, check out the full post if you have time)
Val started off as nothing more than a pretty girl, to now being essentially one of the hottest girls of all time. Recall even that when we first met her nobody was exactly stomping at the bits to try and steal her among the wildlings. Sure she was with Jarl at the time but as I've pointed out in this post they weren't husband and wife, and she took him, not the other way around. She was still available, and she quickly became available once more when Jarl died. Nobody tries to steal her or anything. Then all of the sudden Jon and all of Stannis' knights think she's incredible. She keeps becoming more and more alluring as the series progresses.
Very cool. I'll check it out!
But yeah, it makes sense that she would be single. Stannis wants to use her as leverage, for one. And her higher station too would make her more attractive. Before, she was just Dalla's pretty sister. Now, she's the warrior-princess of the Free Folk.
And she's being kept in a tower. Princess + Tower = dudes lusting for princess.
Now that Val isn't a wildling on the road or delivering a baby in the midst of war, it makes sense that she would look more attractive with steady meals, the means of bathing, and better clothes.
You don't find that similar to how the NQ just completely enraptured the NK?
Very similar. But Jon isn't so enraptured as to give her his seed and soul. And rather than chase and steal her, he has sent her on expeditions and attempted to protect her from would-be theives.
So there are some parallels, but there are also some fundamental differences. And Val is not the only woman to parallel NQ.
Well define alive. Cause if those eyes did indeed change colour, then clearly something happened to her. And suddenly having blue eyes has always been associated with the Others and wights.
It isn't a case of suddenly having blue eyes, to me. It is simply that grey eyes are blue. Sometimes they look really pale, sometimes they look really blue. It all depends on the light.
The eye-change you describe is far more drastically luminescent. Val's eyes still look human. They are not glowing. Now if it turns out they do glow at night, that will be a different story. But so far, they are just grey and blue. And those are not mutually exclusive when it comes to the human iris.
I suppose "alive" is a matter of perpective in ASOIAF. LOL So that was probably not the best word choice. I see Val as human. She speaks and flirts and walks in a human way. Men do not feel colder in her presence. And the very sentence that hangs people up on her possible otherization is the very one that demonstrates she is still quite human and warm-blooded:
Her breath was white as well … but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold.
She breathes, and her breath must be warm and moist, because the moisture in it condenses when it hits the cold air around it. That is not the case for the Others, wights, and Coldhands.
And her redcheeks.... compare with NQ:
A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.
Sure, maybe people forgot that NQ didn't have cheeks flushed red from cold, and maybe her skin wasn't cold as ice... but then... what are we even talking about?
I can't discount NQ's description, because even though it's an 8000 year old tale told at a woman's tit, it's all that we have.
Val isn't cold as ice. And she definitely isn't a corpse. She's just beautiful, and looks good surrounded by white. Like a normal human woman, she flushed red from warm red blood flowing to her cheeks.
So a strong parallel, yes, but NQ was an entirely different sort of creature.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
So while Val is beautiful, and looks good dressed in white, she has done little in the way of being a Night's Queen.
I am with you on this one.
I think Val is something else somehow.
One thing she had done is travel alone in the Haunted Forest for several days (or weeks?) and found Tormund and his mob of wildlings. That is no mean feat.
How do she protect herself at night? sleeping in the branches of a weirwood tree? flashing blue eyes at some distant relatives?
Val isn't cold as ice. And she definitely isn't a corpse. She's just beautiful, and looks good surrounded by white. Like a normal human woman, she flushed red from warm red blood flowing to her cheeks.
white body, red cheeks...familiar colours?
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
How do she protect herself at night? sleeping in the branches of a weirwood tree? flashing blue eyes at some distant relatives?
just looking at Ghost's movements, he is not mentioned from the time of Val's departure (Dance Jon 8) until the wedding of Alys K (Jon 10). That same night, Tormund and the wildlings turn up.
The light of the half-moon turned Val's honey-blond hair a pale silver and left her cheeks as white as snow
silver hair? really?
and to finish with:
Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Val beside him. They look as though they belong together.
Last Edit: Sept 20, 2016 0:49:37 GMT by arrysfleas
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
One thing she had done is travel alone in the Haunted Forest for several days (or weeks?) and found Tormund and his mob of wildlings. That is no mean feat.
How do she protect herself at night? sleeping in the branches of a weirwood tree? flashing blue eyes at some distant relatives?
What reason do we have to assume she needed protection?
The Others tormented the NW, and Samwell's party, but they didn't bother Jon at all when he was making his way south to climb the Wall. Nor did they bother Ghost when he was roaming the Frostfangs, or stuck north of the Wall.
Seems to me the Others only attack at strategic times and places, and they had no reason to stop Val. Val only wanted to bring Tormund south. And the Others don't seem to have a problem with wildlings fleeing the North.
Also keep in mind that the wight completely ignored Jon on its way to Mormont's bedchamber. If Jon had not interefered, he would have rose from a cold night's sleep to find Mormont mysteriously dead.
And didn't Jon send Ghost with Val? Perhaps that was all the protection she needed - a Weirwood Ghost at her side.
Ghost won't allow it. He never did like sharing Jon with Ygritte, so, not again.
Hmm, idk. I don't think Ghost minds Val very much:
"Did you follow me as well?" Jon reached to shoo the bird away but ended up stroking its feathers. The raven cocked its eye at him. "Snow," it muttered, bobbing its head knowingly. Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Val beside him.
They look as though they belong together. Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings. Her breath was white as well … but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold. It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.
Seems to me the Others only attack at strategic times and places, and they had no reason to stop Val. Val only wanted to bring Tormund south. And the Others don't seem to have a problem with wildlings fleeing the North.
i tend to agree with you on this one; still, Val went north to find Tormund.
And didn't Jon send Ghost with Val? Perhaps that was all the protection she needed - a Weirwood Ghost at her side.
I'd say that is most likely what happened. If Jon sent Ghost, it was 'off-page', but Ghost was not mentioned with Jon during that time on-page anyway.
That and the fact that Val and Ghost are buddies.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
Mayhaps the Nightfort is located where it is, then, because a weirwood was sacrificed at the location. It does seem to be a recently sprouting tree.
My impression was that a weirwood has been growing a LONG time there but started after the Nighfort was abandoned.
Bran wasn't so certain. The Nightfort had figured in some of Old Nan's scariest stories. It was here that Night's King had reigned, before his name was wiped from the memory of man. This was where the Rat Cook had served the Andal king his prince-and-bacon pie, where the seventy-nine sentinels stood their watch, where brave young Danny Flint had been raped and murdered. This was the castle where King Sherrit had called down his curse on the Andals of old, where the 'prentice boys had faced the thing that came in the night, where blind Symeon Star-Eyes had seen the hellhounds fighting. Mad Axe had once walked these yards and climbed these towers, butchering his brothers in the dark.
All that had happened hundreds and thousands of years ago, to be sure, and some maybe never happened at all. Maester Luwin always said that Old Nan's stories shouldn't be swallowed whole. But once his uncle came to see Father, and Bran asked about the Nightfort. Benjen Stark never said the tales were true, but he never said they weren't; he only shrugged and said, "We left the Nightfort two hundred years ago," as if that was an answer.
I agree!
Bran forced himself to look around. The morning was cold but bright, the sun shining down from a hard blue sky, but he did not like the noises. The wind made a nervous whistling sound as it shivered through the broken towers, the keeps groaned and settled, and he could hear rats scrabbling under the floor of the great hall. The Rat Cook's children running from their father. The yards were small forests where spindly trees rubbed their bare branches together and dead leaves scuttled like roaches across patches of old snow. There were trees growing where the stables had been, and a twisted white weirwood pushing up through the gaping hole in the roof of the domed kitchen. Even Summer was not at ease here. Bran slipped inside his skin, just for an instant, to get the smell of the place. He did not like that either.
This could just be clever wording on GRRMs part. It's easy to assume the tree grew after bc that's what happened to the stables, and it's implied since the tree is pushing itself up. But it's never explicitly stated. Oh great, another GD mystery. LOL
The Others tormented the NW, and Samwell's party, but they didn't bother Jon at all when he was making his way south to climb the Wall. Nor did they bother Ghost when he was roaming the Frostfangs, or stuck north of the Wall.
They bothered Tormund on the way South with the "hostages", killed his son.
"Tormund," Jon said, as they watched four old women pull a cartful of children toward the gate, "tell me of our foe. I would know all there is to know of the Others."
The wildling rubbed his mouth. "Not here," he mumbled, "not this side o' your Wall." The old man glanced uneasily toward the trees in their white mantles. "They're never far, you know. They won't come out by day, not when that old sun's shining, but don't think that means they went away. Shadows never go away. Might be you don't see them, but they're always clinging to your heels."
"Did they trouble you on your way south?"
"They never came in force, if that's your meaning, but they were with us all the same, nibbling at our edges. We lost more outriders than I care to think about, and it was worth your life to fall behind or wander off. Every nightfall we'd ring our camps with fire. They don't like fire much, and no mistake. When the snows came, though … snow and sleet and freezing rain, it's bloody hard to find dry wood or get your kindling lit, and the cold … some nights our fires just seemed to shrivel up and die. Nights like that, you always find some dead come the morning. 'Less they find you first. The night that Torwynd … my boy, he …' Tormund turned his face away.
"I know," said Jon Snow.
Last Edit: Sept 20, 2016 18:20:36 GMT by voice: fixed those quotes for ya, DS :)
The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.
I need to get back to it myself. I remember liking a lot about it, but can't remember the details.
Thanks for the shout out!
Maester Sam - The short version, the Others and Valyrians parallel each other. There's evidence that in Qohor children, particularly infants are sacrificed for the forging of Valyrian Steel so it's reasonable to assume that Craster's sons are sacrificed to make the weapons and armor of the Others.
They bothered Tormund on the way South with the "hostages", killed his son.
yes, and Val went north to get to him. But i guess Ghost can be enough protection for Val if she spends each night under a weirwood hosting a large flock of ravens (with or without Coldhands).
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
Westeros is a place for trees and giants and cotf. Left alone, I think there would have never been a Long Night.
And, I think it is rather telling that while the Long Night did touch parts of Essos to varying degrees, it engulfed Westeros like the web of a great spider.
This tells me that Westeros is unique, and it is my belief that it is weirwoods that make it unique.
I think the power of weirwoods (and their desire to protect themselves) is often underestimated by the fandom, even Heretics. But then, of course I would feel that way as my own grand theory of everything depends upon the trees to such a large degree.
But, leaving that aside, if we look at Westeros as a continent composed of sentient trees that is defending itself against the antigen of mankind, a whole lot of things fall into place quickly and easily.
And, I might note, Jon Snow's own special place within (my version of) this struggle is quite perfectly illustrated by the existence of Ghost.
I had a lot of readers and comments on my theory, and I truly appreciate the interest. But what few have realized is that the Others themselves are not what I meant by the title of "A Weirwood Ghost" . . . I was talking about Jon Snow.
Jon Snow is A Weirwood Ghost, because, Ghost.
We have no tales of any albino direwolves ever having existed before. And, I have a feeling that weirwoods, like Ned, keep "the older way":
His lord father smiled. "Old Nan has been telling you stories again. In truth, the man was an oathbreaker, a deserter from the Night's Watch. No man is more dangerous. The deserter knows his life is forfeit if he is taken, so he will not flinch from any crime, no matter how vile. But you mistake me. The question was not why the man had to die, but why I must do it."
Bran had no answer for that. "King Robert has a headsman," he said, uncertainly.
"He does," his father admitted. "As did the Targaryen kings before him. Yet our way is the older way. The blood of the First Men still flows in the veins of the Starks, and we hold to the belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die.
Consider the bold. Let's look at it again...
If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words.
And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die.
Now, let us ask ourselves, what have weirwoods been doing for the past ten thousand years? (And it just so happens that Ned was talking to a child that will wed the trees.) I propose that weirwoods themselves share Ned's modus operandi...
If we (weirwoods) would take mankind's life,
we owe it to them to look into their eyes
and hear their final words.
According to Brynden, time is a river that pushes man forward. Yet the river does not move weirwoods. This can be divided into three fundamental tenets:
River = Time
Time pushes Man
Weirwoods push Time
And I'm realizing I'm talking way too long about this. I should just flesh it out and stick it in a new OP. But until then, to summarize the stuff floating around in my head...
And if the weirwoods could not bear to do that,
then perhaps mankind does not deserve to die.
I'm thinking that after having had time to process some very long, slow thoughts, that the collective consciousness of weirwoods (which seems to be informed by, if not composed of, the consciousnessess of every form of life that inhabits Westeros) found that, perhaps, man does not deserve to die.