i think it was fine to send second sons and daughters to the south, but there are bad things rising if both the lord and heir head that way... just a gut feeling that i have regarding the whole "there must always be a Stark in WF" adage's old meaning being less vague (meaning the King/Lord Stark and heir should ignore southron politics and not engage in them else the long night returns). Probably need to restock my tinfoil supply and all, but still just a gut feeling ive had since i first read the series...
If you need tinfoil to believe this, then we'd all better stock up, but this seems absolutely correct.
The "Stark in Winterfell" thing is clearly more than a saying--it's a warning and an instruction. And we've seen what happens when there isn't one--the storm around Winterfell and the castle getting cold and all of that.
So, I could definitely see Brandon's being told more than Ned.
But I also wonder if Rickard was playing a bit fast and loose with the need to stay in Winterfell and instead insisting on playing with Southron politics. Which means he might not have prioritized giving such instructions to Brandon.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
I could see this. Though it then makes be wonder why, if Brandon were told such things by his father, his father would still arrange southern marriages for his kids.
i think it was fine to send second sons and daughters to the south, but there are bad things rising if both the lord and heir head that way... just a gut feeling that i have regarding the whole "there must always be a Stark in WF" adage's old meaning being less vague (meaning the King/Lord Stark and heir should ignore southron politics and not engage in them else the long night returns). Probably need to restock my tinfoil supply and all, but still just a gut feeling ive had since i first read the series...
I just want to piggyback on this idea and add that we've yet to see a Stark survive leaving Winterfell. I'm hopeful that some will, but we've yet to see it. It may be that the Starks can only survive if they remain within those walls, and undergo death/metamorphosis/identity crisis when they leave.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
One arm was black and swollen, stinking with maggots,
this one definitely reminds me of Victarion.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
I just want to piggyback on this idea and add that we've yet to see a Stark survive leaving Winterfell. I'm hopeful that some will, but we've yet to see it. It may be that the Starks can only survive if they remain within those walls, and undergo death/metamorphosis/identity crisis when they leave.
By "leave Winterfell" do you mean "physically leave it ever" or "leave it to live elsewhere or to follow another purpose?" Because if the former. . . that seems really hard to prove.
That said, on the transformative nature--we've got all four remaining Stark kids in their own realms of the dead in one way or another. So. . . by that token they could return?
Which makes me think again of "under the sea"--also transformative, and seems like the Ironborn we've witnessed leave the sea ended up in a dreadful state.
Oddly though, Theon is only really ruined when he chooses to attack Winterfell as an Ironborn. . . an interesting mix of the watery underworld attacking the Stark underworld--and a nightmare ensued.
So, under the sea and under Winterfell--different underworlds??
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
That's what I was thinking too. He's been to Valyria, and has been empowered by its doom.
I can't find this quote from the books. . . .anyone willing to point me in the right direction??
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
By "leave Winterfell" do you mean "physically leave it ever" or "leave it to live elsewhere or to follow another purpose?" Because if the former. . . that seems really hard to prove.
I meant the latter. And really, in my head, I was imagining it as doom befalling Starks who answer the summons of southron kings. Whenever a Stark leaves Winterfell for an Iron Throne pretender, they melt.
Their King is Winter. Now that Brandon is returning, I think we'll see Starks empowered by the cold in new and interesting ways.
That said, on the transformative nature--we've got all four remaining Stark kids in their own realms of the dead in one way or another. So. . . by that token they could return?
I sure hope so. Thankfully, in the books, three of them have direwolves.
Which makes me think again of "under the sea"--also transformative, and seems like the Ironborn we've witnessed leave the sea ended up in a dreadful state.
Definitely. A kraken out of water is as doomed as a wolf beyond the wood.
Oddly though, Theon is only really ruined when he chooses to attack Winterfell as an Ironborn. . . an interesting mix of the watery underworld attacking the Stark underworld--and a nightmare ensued.
Very much so. Calling sweetsunray ! Stop spending so much time at the W! LOL
Poor Theon. Talk about an identity crisis! Theon not-a-Stark: transformed from being a man who knew no fear, the Prince of Winterfell (which, btw, would literally be the "Brandon" of Winterfell if we permit a bit of Irish-from-Welsh translation) by The King's Prize (a woman from the watery underworld). She made him into the Turncloakof Winterfell, before ultimately becoming A (Weirwood)Ghost of Winterfell.
So, under the sea and under Winterfell--different underworlds??
One and the same, imo. The frosty Brother called it:
"It was the cold," Gared said with iron certainty. "I saw men freeze last winter, and the one before, when I was half a boy. Everyone talks about snows forty foot deep, and how the ice wind comes howling out of the north, but the real enemy is the cold. It steals up on you quieter than Will, and at first you shiver and your teeth chatter and you stamp your feet and dream of mulled wine and nice hot fires. It burns, it does. Nothing burns like the cold. But only for a while. Then it gets inside you and starts to fill you up, and after a while you don't have the strength to fight it. It's easier just to sit down or go to sleep. They say you don't feel any pain toward the end. First you go weak and drowsy, and everything starts to fade, and then it's like sinking into a sea of warm milk. Peaceful, like."
A land covered in snow and ice is simply a land covered by the solid state of the sea -- the "frozen shore" creeping inland.
I just want to piggyback on this idea and add that we've yet to see a Stark survive leaving Winterfell. I'm hopeful that some will, but we've yet to see it. It may be that the Starks can only survive if they remain within those walls, and undergo death/metamorphosis/identity crisis when they leave.
The Ned went south twice and returned (we could argue three times, but i don't count fostering in the Eyrie he was a second son then), first during RR, then during the Greyjoy rebellion. in both of these instances, he was just acting as warden of the North and supporting his king, not for his own personal ambition, and i think that is why he survived and was able to return to WF. It was only upon his 3rd trip south that he became enmeshed in the southron politics, and that led to his demise. Ned knew in his gut he should refuse the HotK and stay in WF, but let himself be convinced that he needed to go south to find out the truth behind his foster father's death.
I think that there is something to be said for going south to war as the leader of the Northern armies being acceptable to the old gods, but they haz anger when tSiWF goes south for revenge/personal motives...
I meant the latter. And really, in my head, I was imagining it as doom befalling Starks who answer the summons of southron kings. Whenever a Stark leaves Winterfell for an Iron Throne pretender, they melt.
Their King is Winter. Now that Brandon is returning, I think we'll see Starks empowered by the cold in new and interesting ways.
Agreed--and perhaps they Daynes will turn out the same--they should stay in Starfall/Dorne. Only Swords of the Evening go to the Wall, apparently.
Am now wondering if there is a similar thing with the Ironborn. Asha gives a very practical reason why Theon should not stay in Winterfell, far from the sea:
"Your prize will be the doom of you. Krakens rise from the sea, Theon, or did you forget that during your years among the wolves? Our strength is in our longships. My wooden pisspot sits close enough to the sea for supplies and fresh men to reach me whenever they are needful. But Winterfell is hundreds of leagues inland, ringed by woods, hills, and hostile holdfasts and castles. And every man in a thousand leagues is your enemy now, make no mistake. You made certain of that when you mounted those heads on your gatehouse." Asha shook her head. "How could you be such a bloody fool? Children . . ." Clash, Theon V.
But I wonder if there isn't more mysticism in in than that--that they need to stay close to the living cycles of the sea to function and thrive.
So, with Euron abandoning that sense of life cycle and duty that Damphair insists that the sea represents, that would tie into "breaking form the sea" maybe?
Definitely. A kraken out of water is as doomed as a wolf beyond the wood.
I should have read the whole post.
But, yes. And not just doomed--possible abominable. Theon was alway in the middle. If he'd chosen the wolf side, he might have been all right. But "Theon the Hungry Wolf"--a different kind of abomination from Euron.
Poor Theon. Talk about an identity crisis! Theon not-a-Stark: transformed from being a man who knew no fear, the Prince of Winterfell (which, btw, would literally be the "Brandon" of Winterfell if we permit a bit of Irish-from-Welsh translation) by The King's Prize (a woman from the watery underworld). She made him into the Turncloakof Winterfell, before ultimately becoming A (Weirwood)Ghost of Winterfell.
A land covered in snow and ice is simply a land covered by the solid state of the sea -- the "frozen shore" creeping inland.
Perfect! I'm also starting to wonder about the covering of Dorne in sand. That new Arianne chapter seemed to have Children carvings in the caves. But the barrenness of Dorne seems. . unfriendly to children. And the World Book says that the Hightowers say that the Red Mountains were green until Garth painted them with Dornish blood.
So, not flooded, but another kind of "wasteland"--like the North--a frozen sea? A sandy sea???
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Though we do not have a full account of the Greryjoy Family Tree It is very likely that they have FM blood in their veins making them capable of possessing the Gift.
Agree completely. Theon also has what appears to be a green dream while he is the Prince of Winterfell, where he dreams of the great hall and things he can't possibly know- Lyanna in a blood spattered dress, and most importantly Robb walking in dead, when the Red Wedding hasn't happened yet. So clearly the ironborn have some of the special First Men blood.
IIRC, Theon is also the first character to be able to understand Bran when he speaks through the weirwood (Jon doesn't count b/c it's in a dream). So that suggests a link to the trees and greenseers.
There was nothing below him now but snow and cold and death, a frozen wasteland where jagged blue-white spires of ice waited to embrace him. They flew up at him like spears. He saw the bones of a thousand other dreamers impaled upon their points. He was desperately afraid.
“Can a man still be brave if he’s afraid? He heard his own voice saying, small and far away.
And his father’s voice replied to him. “That is the only time a man can be brave.”
Now, Bran, the crow urged. Choose. Fly or Die.
Death reached for him, screaming.
Bran spread his arms and flew.
AGoT, Chapter 17, Bran
This passage tells us that thousands have been unsuccessful for one reason or another. Were they not powerful enough? Or were they unworthy?
Yes, great point. Initially we didn't know who these dead dreamers were, but it very much appears that they are the ones who failed to fly. Which suggests that Euron actually passed this test, given that he is still alive, not impaled on ice spikes in the lands of always winter. When he speaks with Victarion, he suggests that maybe he could fly if he jumped from the tower. This also implies that he passed; if is first (in-dream) attempt to fly had been a failure, he would hardly have the cockiness/confidence we see in him as an adult.
Also, Euron clearly is very powerful when it comes to magic. So it would be expected that he would pass the flying test, which seems to be more of a test of ability, not of character or suitability for being a greenseer.
Being a descendant of the First Men, Euron, has the gift to skinchange and his gift is used in ill-intentioned ways. He is an abomination. Despite the rusty iron hinges of Aeron’s mind screaming in protest, Euron tried to open and enter his brother’s mind.
True. Though by that definition, Bran is an abomination as well, for mind-raping Hodor. I wonder if BR truly doesn't know this is happening, or if it requires a more severe transgression to be kicked out of the cave?
The dreams were even worse the second time. He saw the longships of the Ironborn adrift and burning on a boiling blood red sea.
This comment isn't directly related to the OP, but doesn't it seem as though this passage suggests that Victarion and his iron fleet will be destroyed? Guess that dragon horn won't be working out for him after all. Euron's gifts are poisoned; I bet he's already claimed the horn for himself, and the dragons won't obey Vic but rather will burn him. Of course, it's also possible that the Volantene fleet arrives and decimates the ironborn. An actual sea battle would explain the blood red sea, and ships can be burned by people, not just by dragons. But either way, I doubt Vic will be taking Dany anywhere.... and Euron already knows this but sent him anyway.
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”