I just stumbled upon something VERY interesting in light of this new Euron chapter:
Mother of dragons, Daenerys thought. Mother of monsters. What have I unleashed upon the world? A queen I am, but my throne is made of burned bones, and it rests on quicksand… I am the blood of the dragon, she thought. If they are monsters, so am I. (ADWD DANY II)
Hmmm, looks like she and Euron have something in common...
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
Agreed--and perhaps they Daynes will turn out the same--they should stay in Starfall/Dorne. Only Swords of the Evening go to the Wall, apparently.
They seem to have chosen polar extremes quite purposefully for two houses that seem to enamoured with one another. Yin and Yang. Ice and Fire ... tied to the descent of Winter and Star.
And considering the last man able to wield Dawn was in fact the Lord of Winterfell, methinks there is far more to learn regarding their connections. Mayhaps those connections can mend our favorite bastard's heart in conflict...
Am now wondering if there is a similar thing with the Ironborn. Asha gives a very practical reason why Theon should not stay in Winterfell, far from the sea:
"Your prize will be the doom of you. Krakens rise from the sea, Theon, or did you forget that during your years among the wolves? Our strength is in our longships. My wooden pisspot sits close enough to the sea for supplies and fresh men to reach me whenever they are needful. But Winterfell is hundreds of leagues inland, ringed by woods, hills, and hostile holdfasts and castles. And every man in a thousand leagues is your enemy now, make no mistake. You made certain of that when you mounted those heads on your gatehouse." Asha shook her head. "How could you be such a bloody fool? Children . . ." Clash, Theon V.
But I wonder if there isn't more mysticism in in than that--that they need to stay close to the living cycles of the sea to function and thrive.
So, with Euron abandoning that sense of life cycle and duty that Damphair insists that the sea represents, that would tie into "breaking form the sea" maybe?
Broken weirs, m'lady. It all stems from broken weirs. Theon faced his abomination-hood, and then became it. One more man suffering from a chronic case of hubris.
But, yes. And not just doomed--possible abominable. Theon was alway in the middle. If he'd chosen the wolf side, he might have been all right. But "Theon the Hungry Wolf"--a different kind of abomination from Euron.
I can only agree. It was a very conscious decision. He almost sent Robb that letter, then didn't.
Perfect! I'm also starting to wonder about the covering of Dorne in sand. That new Arianne chapter seemed to have Children carvings in the caves. But the barrenness of Dorne seems. . unfriendly to children. And the World Book says that the Hightowers say that the Red Mountains were green until Garth painted them with Dornish blood.
So, not flooded, but another kind of "wasteland"--like the North--a frozen sea? A sandy sea???
Too cute?
Not at all too cute. Eolian sands are full of currents and waves. And we can't forget one of our first mentions of Jon's mother:
A Game of Thrones - Eddard XII
"I shall wear that as a badge of honor," Ned said dryly. "Honor," she spat. "How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?"
Then there's the fact that Dorne was re-settled by Nymeria and her seafarers.
And then, if we want to get really far down the rabbit hole, there is also the fact that Sand (like Snow in asoiaf, imo) is used to make glass ... one more form of Ice that is alive with light (Dawn).
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I just stumbled upon something VERY interesting in light of this new Euron chapter:
Mother of dragons, Daenerys thought. Mother of monsters. What have I unleashed upon the world? A queen I am, but my throne is made of burned bones, and it rests on quicksand… I am the blood of the dragon, she thought. If they are monsters, so am I. (ADWD DANY II)
Hmmm, looks like she and Euron have something in common...
Now that is a very interesting catch!
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Then again, maybe it's Mel, based on this passage from ADWD, Mel talking to Jon:
“Remember that when you behold the blind and ravaged faces of your dead. And come that day, take my hand.” The mist rose from her pale flesh, and for a moment it seemed as if pale, sorcerous flames were playing about her fingers. “Take my hand,” she said again, “and let me save your sister.” (JON VI)
I had never considered her before, but she actually fits better than Dany in some ways. The woman in Aeron's nightmare was tall, and Dany is not. She had pale flames coming from her hands, which kinda sorta might have worked with Dany since she is associated with fire - but really it works better for Mel, especially given the passage above. And Mel certainly could also be said to stand upon a pile of burned bones....
Logistically, it could also work. Regardless of whether Stannis wins or loses, the Pink Letter claims he is dead. So Mel, like in the show, is without a chosen one and having a crisis of faith. Enter Asha (and maybe Theon). Asha talks about what happened in the Iron Islands, and Mel realizes that Euron is in fact the real chosen one. So she goes to seek him out. She would love him; he would happily let her burn anyone she wanted in order to strengthen her power, and he can deliver her all sorts of kings's blood, not to mention a ship full of holy men...
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
Then again, maybe it's Mel, based on this passage from ADWD, Mel talking to Jon:
“Remember that when you behold the blind and ravaged faces of your dead. And come that day, take my hand.” The mist rose from her pale flesh, and for a moment it seemed as if pale, sorcerous flames were playing about her fingers. “Take my hand,” she said again, “and let me save your sister.” (JON VI)
I had never considered her before, but she actually fits better than Dany in some ways. The woman in Aeron's nightmare was tall, and Dany is not. She had pale flames coming from her hands, which kinda sorta might have worked with Dany since she is associated with fire - but really it works better for Mel, especially given the passage above. And Mel certainly could also be said to stand upon a pile of burned bones....
Logistically, it could also work. Regardless of whether Stannis wins or loses, the Pink Letter claims he is dead. So Mel, like in the show, is without a chosen one and having a crisis of faith. Enter Asha (and maybe Theon). Asha talks about what happened in the Iron Islands, and Mel realizes that Euron is in fact the real chosen one. So she goes to seek him out. She would love him; he would happily let her burn anyone she wanted in order to strengthen her power, and he can deliver her all sorts of kings's blood, not to mention a ship full of holy men...
They really would be a perfect couple. Lol
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
It wouldn't be hard to convince her that Euron is AA reborn. "Reborn amidst salt and smoke"... she thought the place of salt and smoke was Dragonstone (salty sea and volcanoes) - but that's a silly idea. It's Valyria, of course! And that's where Euron was (or well could have been) at the time of the red comet.
Asha will talk about the Hellhorn that he brought back from Valyria; I expect that's all it will take to send Mel on her way.
I have to admit, what I find so fascinating about this scenario is that together, they would be immensely powerful, and immensely evil - and entirely representing Fire (much more so than Euron alone, IMO). This could provide the plot twist that, in some form, I've been waiting/hoping for for years: that in order to save the world, Jon or another "good guy" will have to allow the Others across the Wall, recruiting them to help fight for the Dawn.
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
It wouldn't be hard to convince her that Euron is AA reborn. "Reborn amidst salt and smoke"... she thought the place of salt and smoke was Dragonstone (salty sea and volcanoes) - but that's a silly idea. It's Valyria, of course! And that's where Euron was (or well could have been) at the time of the red comet.
Asha will talk about the Hellhorn that he brought back from Valyria; I expect that's all it will take to send Mel on her way.
I have to admit, what I find so fascinating about this scenario is that together, they would be immensely powerful, and immensely evil - and entirely representing Fire (much more so than Euron alone, IMO). This could provide the plot twist that, in some form, I've been waiting/hoping for for years: that in order to save the world, Jon or another "good guy" will have to allow the Others across the Wall, recruiting them to help fight for the Dawn.
I dig it. After all, the Others are likely just icy reflections of First Men -- the implacable self and hubris, incarnate. Seems the perfect antidote to fire. And winter is coming. Even Mel's nightfire shivered when the winds spoke.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I just want to piggyback on this idea and add that we've yet to see a Stark survive leaving Winterfell. I'm hopeful that some will, but we've yet to see it. It may be that the Starks can only survive if they remain within those walls, and undergo death/metamorphosis/identity crisis when they leave.
The Ned went south twice and returned (we could argue three times, but i don't count fostering in the Eyrie he was a second son then), first during RR, then during the Greyjoy rebellion. in both of these instances, he was just acting as warden of the North and supporting his king, not for his own personal ambition, and i think that is why he survived and was able to return to WF. It was only upon his 3rd trip south that he became enmeshed in the southron politics, and that led to his demise. Ned knew in his gut he should refuse the HotK and stay in WF, but let himself be convinced that he needed to go south to find out the truth behind his foster father's death.
I think that there is something to be said for going south to war as the leader of the Northern armies being acceptable to the old gods, but they haz anger when tSiWF goes south for revenge/personal motives...
The difference is that imo the Lord of WF went to live South.
For me North = like Hades. It's underworld. The ruler's job is to make sure that his subjects don't escape back into the living world. He can go on a holiday sometimes (Hades ain't dead, and is an Olympian for example), and he can join in a battle together with his Olympian brothers against a foe. But he can't just pack up and say, the underworld's fine. I'll just live on Mount Olympus from now on.
Eddard Stark being forstered in the Vale was not an issue, since he wasn't the heir at the time, both heir and Lord lived in the North and ruled there. But when heir and lord went South to KL, they died.
RR is like Zeus, Hades and Poseidon battling the Titans. Zeus gets King's Landing. Hades goes back to the North. Poseidon gets an island near the Narrow Sea and the fleet to command.
Balon's rebellion, again together with his bros, more a battle than a war.
But in aGoT the ruler of the underworld goes to live in the heavens. And then his wife leaves as well. And when both cats are from home the mice dance and feast like there's no tomorrow.
And Lya died because, well that was an upside-down "rape of Persephone". Lya was stolen not to the underworld, but from the underworld. And not by Hades, but by Orpheus. Orpheus is the guy with the lyre whose wife dies and he travels to the underworld to get his dead wife back. Persephone is moved to tears and persuades Hades to let Eurydice go, and that's allowed, as long as Orpheus does not look behind him on his way back and both he and his wife have emerged from the underworld.
Except aSoIaF's Orpheus' wife wasn't dead yet, and instead of getting his wife back from the Underworld he stole Persephone. If Orpheus would have kidnapped Persephone from the Underworld, then not only Demeter (her mother) would let a hellraiser winter loose, Hades would send an army of dead guys to get her back. And look where we are heading with aSoIaF? Long Night and an army of zombies.
For me North = like Hades. It's underworld. The ruler's job is to make sure that his subjects don't escape back into the living world.
This is an interesting idea, and ties in with Bran and Arya's strong connections to Death, as well as the apparent significance of the crypts below WF. Who are you suggesting as the subjects though? The Others? As warden of the North, the Stark in Winterfell would certainly be the first to face them and try to keep them out of the Realm- but only after the failure of the Watch. It seems to me that keeping the dead where they are is more the function of the NW ... with Winterfell more of a back-up? Unless of course, as some suspect, WF is older than the Wall, and the original Watchers on the Walls protected the Realm from there. Then it would fit pretty well.
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
For me North = like Hades. It's underworld. The ruler's job is to make sure that his subjects don't escape back into the living world.
This is an interesting idea, and ties in with Bran and Arya's strong connections to Death, as well as the apparent significance of the crypts below WF. Who are you suggesting as the subjects though? The Others? As warden of the North, the Stark in Winterfell would certainly be the first to face them and try to keep them out of the Realm- but only after the failure of the Watch. It seems to me that keeping the dead where they are is more the function of the NW ... with Winterfell more of a back-up? Unless of course, as some suspect, WF is older than the Wall, and the original Watchers on the Walls protected the Realm from there. Then it would fit pretty well.
Well the Hades realm goes originally from the Neck until beyond the Wall. Think of the Wall and NW castles as Tartarus (where the condemned dead go). Hades the god had his hall in Hades, but had others supervize Tartarus directly.
The whole "we don't meddle with the realm" is BS. They are direct neighbors of the Starks in the North. For 8000 years, minus 300, that's basically been the sole kingdom they had as neighbor. Dorne, Reach, Stormlands? Sure, they sent their sons up there, the ones who weren't going to inherit. But Northern politics and how close the NW was with the Starks was never an issue for the other kingdoms, because it wasn't even their kingdom and would not affect them politically at all. When wildlings or other creatures threatened any lands it was the Northern lands first, and it was a Stark's job to make sure none of them got passed the Neck. Time and time again, it were the Starks who dealt with a King Beyond the Wall (and the NW even failed often). The Wall and the NW is basically the daughter-company of the Stark rule. And when the managers fail to do their job, the CEO Stark steps in. But then the Targs had to muck it up 300 years ago.
So, subjects = anyone who lives or is undead between the Neck and beyond the Wall. Basically anyone in that underworld realm ought to be regarded as "living in the underworld". I can't really call them "the dead", since they're obviously not all dead. But well they're "Northeners" = cold, stern, "strange".
Last Edit: Aug 28, 2016 17:33:19 GMT by sweetsunray
Well the Hades realm goes originally from the Neck until beyond the Wall. Think of the Wall and NW castles as Tartarus (where the condemned dead go). Hades the god had his hall in Hades, but had others supervize Tartarus directly.
The whole "we don't meddle with the realm" is BS. They are direct neighbors of the Starks in the North. For 8000 years, minus 300, that's basically been the sole kingdom they had as neighbor. Dorne, Reach, Stormlands? Sure, they sent their sons up there, the ones who weren't going to inherit. But Northern politics and how close the NW was with the Starks was never an issue for the other kingdoms, because it wasn't even their kingdom and would not affect them politically at all. When wildlings or other creatures threatened any lands it was the Northern lands first, and it was a Stark's job to make sure none of them got passed the Neck. Time and time again, it were the Starks who dealt with a King Beyond the Wall (and the NW even failed often). The Wall and the NW is basically the daughter-company of the Stark rule. And when the managers fail to do their job, the CEO Stark steps in. But then the Targs had to muck it up 300 years ago.
So, subjects = anyone who lives or is undead between the Neck and beyond the Wall. Basically anyone in that underworld realm ought to be regarded as "living in the underworld". I can't really call them "the dead", since they're obviously not all dead. But well they're "Northeners" = cold, stern, "strange".
This is a great observation, and I especially love the bolded part. You're completely right, the Watch is (and, from the sound of it, always has been) militarily inferior to Winterfell. Every confrontation was won by the Stark in Winterfell, never by the NW. And it was the Starks who stepped in every time the NW failed. The NW says their fancy vows, but in reality it's the Starks who guard the realms of men.
Are you sure you don't want to just make the area behind the Wall Hades? I feel like that would fit better, if Ned's job is to keep them in. Ned doesn't try to keep his regular subjects from traveling south, but he will absolutely prevent anything from behind the Wall - whether it be wildlings or Others- from entering the Realm.
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
Bran was falling faster than ever. The grey mists howled around him as he plunged toward the earth below. “What are you doing to me?” he asked the crow, tearful.
Teaching you how to fly.
“I can’t fly!”
You’re flying right now.
“I’m falling!”
Every flight beings with a fall, the crow said. Look down.
AGoT, Chapter 17, Bran
“It was just a lie,” he said bitterly, remembering the crow from his dream. “I can’t fly. I can’t even run.”
“Crows are all liars,” Old Nan agreed, from the chair where she sat doing her needlework.
AGoT, Chapter 24, Bran
When Euron is talking to Victarion about his plans to take over Westeros he tells of a dream he had, eerily similar to Bran’s.
We have missed someone. Someone else has had a dream eerily similar to Bran's. And only separated by a few chapters:
Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. “Faster,” they cried, “faster, faster.” She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. “Faster!” the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward. A great knife of pain ripped down her back, and she felt her skin tear open and smelled the stench of burning blood and saw the shadow of wings. And Daenerys Targaryen flew.
Like Bran, the dreamer is on the verge of death, having a vivid fever dream that involves mentors telling her what to do, movement at high speed and, in the end, the successful experience of flying. Most importantly, in this dream, she is being presented with a choice: fly or die. Exactly like Bran. She makes the same choice, and flies. When she awakens, she also has the same reaction as the other two:
Flying, she thought. I had wings, I was flying. But it was only a dream.
We have obviously known before now that Dany has strong magical abilities. But this makes me wonder if her "brand" of magic is as different from Bran or Euron as it appears to be on the surface. She certainly seems to have faced the same flying test that they did, and she passed. Then the next day she went and hatched some dragons, and that's why this passage gets overlooked. But it's quite similar to the other two dreams, the dreams that so far we have assumed are only for would-be greenseers.
I am edging back into the camp of those who think the woman in Aeron's dream is Dany. Lol. I can't decide. But now she and Euron have something in common, at least, and I wonder if maybe the dragons won't decide they like him...
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
Are you sure you don't want to just make the area behind the Wall Hades? I feel like that would fit better, if Ned's job is to keep them in. Ned doesn't try to keep his regular subjects from traveling south, but he will absolutely prevent anything from behind the Wall - whether it be wildlings or Others- from entering the Realm.
I am sure, because the godswood and the crypts and even Winterfell and the way well the North is described is in similar terms. A good example is to read the chapter with Robert visiting the crypts. Robert's speech on the stairs about Highgarden and the hot days in King's Landing is a speech that celebrates life: taste, sound, sight, smell, while the crypts are dark, cold, and silent and immobile. If you then flip back to Catelyn's first chapter a little before that where she enters the godswood, the godswood is described in the same way as the crypts: dark, brooding, silent, gods with no names versus her memory of the godswood in Riverrun where there's light, and water sounds, birds singing, air, smell of flowers and the faith with its gods that have faces and names and a rainbow of colors. Then you go to her second chapter and that's her haven (whereas the godswood is Ned's haven), where it's always hot, and where her children were born and made (fertility), while Ned opens the window to look out into the "night" and let the "codl air" in. Most people from the North (South of the Wall) simply don't often go South of the Neck themselves. Or we have Theon having a type of Walhalla dream at Winterfell with all the fallen heroes. The bannermen and common folk of the North are good "souls" that tend to stay where they belong - North. And they don't get many visitors from the South either. Of course after things go wrong, the RL is slowly turned into an underworld too, and by aFfC it's Hel and a bit of Purgatory. I think we'll soon count the Vale as annexed by the underworld too imo in tWoW.
Bran thought about it. "Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?" "That is the only time a man can be brave," his father told him.
Robert Baratheon was arguably the most fearless warrior of his generation. And a coward in the eyes of his own wife.
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
AH!! Yes! Yes! That would fit. A lack of fear leading to a lack of reverence for life and those around you. And since the "old gods" seem largely to be the repository of collective memory in the trees, such gods require reverence for the past and for one's fellows.
I think, upon closer inspection, we'll find that the terms "god" and "king" can pretty much be used interchangeably throughout the entire story. For gods or kings to know fear is to feel the weight of responsibility laid before them.
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."