Post by nanother on Jun 16, 2016 0:40:22 GMT
In a society where sex outside marriage is considered dishonourable and even sinful, that pretty much implies no sex.
- A Game of Thrones - Catelyn II
Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child's needs.
Yeah, that's Cat trying to rationalise something she can't really do anything about anyway. No woman can in that society (except the likes of Cersei, with lots of power/resources and little conscience). Everyone else is pretty quick to point out how the honorable Ned Stark forsook his honor that one time with Jon's mother. Then there was that King's Hand who had a tunnel dug to a brothel, because his honour wouldn't allow him to go there openly (I never made the connection, but someone somewhere suggested that it was, or might have been Tywin Lannister??). Again, practice rarely follows theory regarding extra-marital sex, but the theory is that it's dishonourable. Outside Dorne anyway.
Not to mention that the only way to be absolutely sure that you father no sons would indeed be having no sex. In parctice, this is not taken seriously by most (including those supposed to enforce the rules) when it comes to whoring, but is acknowledged to be against the (spirit of the) vows and not something to openly talk about. Daughters of great houses are a different matter, though.
Daughters of great houses are indeed another matter, though. And daughters of great houses betrothed to Lords of other great houses are another matter yet.
And... to court a daughter of a great house betrothed to a young lord with a strong temper from another great house warrants even more caution, no?
Or are you thinking Lyanna was raped either way? Whether it was Rhaegar or Arthur or X?
Because unless Lyanna was raped, courtship seems likely.
No, I think rape would be just as out of character for both Rhaegar and Arthur as suddenly leaving behind any trace of common sense to start courting Lyanna. I mean, I have no problem with romance per se, I even enjoy it when it's well written, and I'm very well aware that love is liable to make people act like idiots. But I do have a problem with that being the magical catch-all explanation for people doing uncharacteristically stupid things. That's already a problem with standard 'love story' version of R+L, and the (A=Cyrano)+L scenario seems to essentially the same to me, except Rhaegar isn't even the one in love. So he doesn't even have that excuse. Or are you proposing he fell madly in love with Arthur and was willing to do anything to make him happy? Is it a love triangle? Rhaegar <33 Arthur <33 Lyanna? Did they have a threesome? Will we ever find out which one actually sired Jon?
The closest thing in the present day story is Robb marrying Jeyne Westerling - someone (who's not a PoV character) doing something incredibly stupid driven by love/lust. He really should have known better, just like Rhaegar and Arthur, but Martin went out of his way to heap excuses on top of excuses for him doing it anyway - Jeyne nursing him after injury ... that's alway a good way to start a romance, right?; news of Bran and Rickon's death, so Robb needs some extra 'comforting' ... how convenient; scheming bitch of a prospective mother-in-law (in league with Tywin Lannister) to steer both the girl and possibly Robb in the right direction if needed; the Lannisters (of all people!) discussing amongst each other how he was his father's son and chose the girl's honour over his own. And let's remember that he's still half a boy, so add teenage hormones to that. Sometimes I start thinking 'FFS, how could Robb have been such an idiot?' Then I remember all these and concede that it was an understandable mistake resulting from a combination of chance, scheming, and established character traits (fairly cliched individually, TBH, but they kinda make sense together). In that light, what's more likely? Rh&A cooking up a silly scheme with the express purpose of achieving something that's obviously a bad idea to begin with (and not particularly honorable either), just because love is crazy, or various (not necessarily related) events gradually pushing them into a situation where it's almost impossible not to make the wrong choice?
Overall, I'm getting a little confused as to what you're trying to argue (that's why I'm writing a long wall of text instead of answering each point). You seem to be alternating between talking about the crowning as a completely harmless gesture (which it more-or-less would be in isolation, although I think it's way more problematic than you're making it out to be), and the supposed courtship which is a pretty big deal, even you seem to admit that. If we want to see Jon as the culmination of this A+L romance that started with the crowning, then I don't see how we can separate the crowning from the courtship (and the courtship from the eventual sex) - it's one process and Rhaegar was seemingly involved in some manner all the way through. And yes, it's pretty likely that a romance did indeed develop between Lyanna and A or Rh (or whoever) at some point, I have no issue with that, only with it being the main driving force behind the events in the first place.
As for Rhaegar being in less danger from Robert - you're right, when it comes to courting Lyanna, Rhaegar is less likely to be immediately subjected to Robert's wrath (fuck kinship, but being a Crown Prince does mean you can reasonably hope to get away with just about anything). However, it'd still be a pretty stupid thing for him to openly get involved with Arthur courting the daughter of a great house betrothed to the head of another great house, especially in an already fragile (if we believe Yandel) political situation. I mean, even if Yandel exaggerates the level of intrigue and tension between Rhaegar and Aerys (and frankly, from what we see in the main series, he probably doesn't), it's obvious enough that Rhaegar is indeed playing the game of thrones, so I can't see him disregarding all political considerations to help his buddy woo a girl. That sounds more like something AGoT Sansa would do, and she had the excuse of being a 12 year old girl, clueless about the world outside songs, and besotted with her Prince Charming at the time.
BTW, at this point I might as well point out that this isn't really a Cyrano situation. There we have Cyrano and Christian ind of complementing each other, Cyrano lending his own wits to his pal's good looks so he can stand a chance to woo the girl they both love ... here we have Arthur simply getting his pal woo a girl in his stead for no obvious reason (well, for possible health and safety concerns, lol) ... very different (Bran warging Hodor to woo a girl would be more Cyrano-like ... alas, Meera wouldn't work as Roxane as she'd know it's really Bran). Also, note that Cyrano doesn't actually get the girl (not before he's about to die, anyway). So, it might not have been the most fortunate parallel for the OP to choose.
Now, there must be ways around these problems (and these problems are there regardless of who Lyanna hooks up with!) - for example, Rhaegar could 'safely' risk offending the Starks and Baratheons if they were a lost cause anyway... meaning that there would have to be a reason why it'd be hopeless to even try to be on good terms with them... well, so far I don't recall any such reason, but it's a possibility. Looking a the crowning on its own, he might really have thought that the Starks would be honored by his choice. We know that there are some rules and obligations when it comes to choosing queens of love and beauty, but we don't know for sure what they are and how rigid they are. I think it's kinda predictable that passing over his own wife would lead to rumours, speculation and mistrust, so there's a strong reason against doing that, but maybe it was worth taking that risk for some reason? So, maybe it was unreasonable for the Starks to be insulted. But then, when it became obvious that they did, why was there no attempt to smooth it over? Or why didn't it work? OK, we're already lead to think Brandon was a fool for making a scene at KL ... maybe he was also too much of a fool to see past this perceived insult (again, this would mean massive plot developments being caused by sheer idiocy, and twice by the same person ... so I hope it's not going to be the case).
Also there's Barristan's frustratingly vague and jumbled recollection of HH, which carefully avoids giving us any substantial info about what Rhaegar's plan might have been:
The Prince of Dragonstone had never trusted him as he had trusted Arthur Dayne.
The memory was still bitter.
If he had not gone into Duskendale to rescue Aerys from Lord Darklyn's dungeons, the king might well have died there as Tywin Lannister sacked the town. Then Prince Rhaegar would have ascended the Iron Throne, mayhaps to heal the realm. Duskendale had been his finest hour, yet the memory tasted bitter on his tongue.
Aerys had not set foot outside the Red Keep since Duskendale, yet suddenly he announced that he would accompany Prince Rhaegar to Harrenhal, and everything had gone awry from there.
If I had been a better knight … if I had unhorsed the prince in that last tilt, as I unhorsed so many others, it would have been for me to choose the queen of love and beauty …
Rhaegar had chosen Lyanna Stark of Winterfell. Barristan Selmy would have made a different choice. Not the queen, who was not present. Nor Elia of Dorne, though she was good and gentle; had she been chosen, much war and woe might have been avoided.
If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?
He would never know. But of all his failures, none haunted Barristan Selmy so much as that.
He would never know. But of all his failures, none haunted Barristan Selmy so much as that.
True, the other Dornish KG did have a paramour, but there's no reason to think that wasn't the exception, or that it was public knowledge. In fact, it probably wasn't as it's left off his official record.
"Prince Lewyn was my Sworn Brother. In those days there were few secrets amongst the Kingsguard. I know he kept a paramour. He did not feel there was any shame in that."
So, he didn't keep it secret from his fellow KG, but probably kept it from mostly everyone else.
Nothing strange, unless you choose to focus on the one half sentence that fits your theory and ignore the big picture
1. It's not on Lewyn Martell's official record. Surely, if it was perfectly normal to keep a paramour back then, there would have been no harm in having it on record. And we know it's not perfectly normal now, because Arys is pretty embarrassed about it. Also notice the circumstances leading to Barristan's statement: he's talking with Quentyn Martell about Dany's ... paramour, and defending Dany's honour in that context. Of course he'll try to sound like there's nothing wrong with paramours. That doesn't mean he personally approves, or that it was ever considered acceptable.
2. We hear about it from two sources - one of his fellow KG (and there were few secrets between them, he says), and his great-niece Arianne; Arys is shocked, even though he is aware of his own fellow KGs failings. it does NOT appear to be public knowledge at all.
3. Characters and SSM consistently imply that KG and NW wovs mean 'no sex' in theory, although there's great variance between individual codes of honour regarding whores and paramours.
A Game of Thrones - Tyrion I
Jaime smiled. "I hope you're not thinking of taking the black on us, sweet brother."
Tyrion laughed. "What, me, celibate? The whores would go begging from Dorne to Casterly Rock. No, I just want to stand on top of the Wall and piss off the edge of the world."
Jaime smiled. "I hope you're not thinking of taking the black on us, sweet brother."
Tyrion laughed. "What, me, celibate? The whores would go begging from Dorne to Casterly Rock. No, I just want to stand on top of the Wall and piss off the edge of the world."
A Clash of Kings - Jon I
"Never mind about comets, it's maps the Old Bear wants."
Ghost loped ahead of them. The grounds seemed deserted this morning, with so many rangers off at the brothel in Mole's Town, digging for buried treasure and drinking themselves blind. Grenn had gone with them. Pyp and Halder and Toad had offered to buy him his first woman to celebrate his first ranging. They'd wanted Jon and Sam to come as well, but Sam was almost as frightened of whores as he was of the haunted forest, and Jon had wanted no part of it. "Do what you want," he told Toad, "I took a vow."
"Never mind about comets, it's maps the Old Bear wants."
Ghost loped ahead of them. The grounds seemed deserted this morning, with so many rangers off at the brothel in Mole's Town, digging for buried treasure and drinking themselves blind. Grenn had gone with them. Pyp and Halder and Toad had offered to buy him his first woman to celebrate his first ranging. They'd wanted Jon and Sam to come as well, but Sam was almost as frightened of whores as he was of the haunted forest, and Jon had wanted no part of it. "Do what you want," he told Toad, "I took a vow."
A Feast for Crows - The Soiled Knight
"Now you mock me."
"Perhaps a little. Do you think you are the only Kingsguard who ever loved a woman?"
"There have always been men who found it easier to speak vows than to keep them," he admitted. Ser Boros Blount was no stranger to the Street of Silk, and Ser Preston Greenfield used to call at a certain draper's house whenever the draper was away, but Arys would not shame his Sworn Brothers by speaking of their failings.
... ... ...
"You'd had three cups of watered wine."
"I was drunk on you. It had been ten years since . . . I never touched a woman until you, not since I took the white. I never knew what love could be, yet now . . . I am afraid."
"Now you mock me."
"Perhaps a little. Do you think you are the only Kingsguard who ever loved a woman?"
"There have always been men who found it easier to speak vows than to keep them," he admitted. Ser Boros Blount was no stranger to the Street of Silk, and Ser Preston Greenfield used to call at a certain draper's house whenever the draper was away, but Arys would not shame his Sworn Brothers by speaking of their failings.
... ... ...
"You'd had three cups of watered wine."
"I was drunk on you. It had been ten years since . . . I never touched a woman until you, not since I took the white. I never knew what love could be, yet now . . . I am afraid."
SSM:
3) Kingsguards may not have a wife or children, but does this also include a vow of chastity?
In theory, yes, but at least one Kingsguard was executed for sleeping with a king's mistress, and many others have doubtless had "lapses."
3) Kingsguards may not have a wife or children, but does this also include a vow of chastity?
In theory, yes, but at least one Kingsguard was executed for sleeping with a king's mistress, and many others have doubtless had "lapses."
4. If you're breaking rules, you might not see the shame in it (frankly, they're silly rules), but that doesn't mean it's a good idea to advertise it; we know he didn't keep it from those closest to him (colleagues, family, any trusted friends he might have), and there were probably people who were bound to find out - servants, Varys, dunno ... but beyond that, there's little reason to assume anyone would know of it.
Also note that this is all about prince Lewyn - nothing similar is ever said about Dayne that I remember, no rumours, not even from fellow KG or family members, even though he had spent several years in the KG (and was Dornish!) before he even had a chance to set his eyes on Lyanna Stark.