I'll make it into a thread if you want, I didn't talk about it so I wouldn't derail this thread. I'd prefer to wait until I get a better refresher of Feast, just because that was when my gears turned, but I'll tell you it was about Rickon/Skaagos/Stark relatives. Now with the family tree out, we know Ned's mother wasn't Skaagosi, but there still may be something there tying to the Starks- which was what I was proposing.
It's not a secret, I'm just not fresh enough to defend it right now.
ETA: I don't think I'm the first to think of this, either
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Yeah, I saw that, and was thinking he was being biased against the poster, as well.
Well of course. Dany needs to be exactly who she is supposed to be because Dany being who she is is evidence for Jon being Rhaegar and Lyanna's son as GRRM said that Jon is 8-9 months older than Dany. Dany needs to have been born 9 months after the Sack like the books say to have any hope of Jon being born at the TOJ and Lyanna having died of puerperal fever. Even though that doesn't make any sense as Jon should be around 5-6 months older than Dany if Jon was born at the TOJ as the Siege of Storm's End needs to have lasted for a couple of months after the Sack to have lasted the year that it did and Ned says he'd already ended the Siege before he got to the TOJ. Flawed as the math is to arrive at Jon being born at the TOJ when RLJ claims, Dany being born 9 months after the Sack needs to have happened to make it at all possible given GRRM's statements about their relative births.
So of course there's any resistance to the very idea that Dany isn't who she's supposed to be. Same as there's any resistance to Aegon being who he's supposed to be. This is the story of King Jon Targaryen I, not anybody else.
Anyway, they also tried to twist the response to mean something else about the Sealord, I think. He says it is significant.
Correct. GRRM's statement was that it was a significant discrepancy for lemon trees to be in Braavos. The Sealord's Palace is in Braavos. GRRM is saying that there shouldn't be any lemon trees in Braavos. Therefore there shouldn't be any lemon trees in the Sealord's Palace.
It's flawed logic as hell to say that GRRM confirming that lemon trees don't equal Braavos means that the Sealord's Palace explains the lemon trees.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Post by whitewolfstark on Aug 18, 2015 0:36:59 GMT
Not having a lemon to stake on in this batch of lemonade, I must say everyone seems to be squeezing the juice a little hard for their drink. Whether it be sweet or sour, the lemonade will be drunk either way in The Winds of Winter.
Can we get a smiley of something to do with lemons?
Yeah, I saw that, and was thinking he was being biased against the poster, as well.
Well of course. Dany needs to be exactly who she is supposed to be because Dany being who she is is evidence for Jon being Rhaegar and Lyanna's son as GRRM said that Jon is 8-9 months older than Dany. Dany needs to have been born 9 months after the Sack like the books say to have any hope of Jon being born at the TOJ and Lyanna having died of puerperal fever. Even though that doesn't make any sense as Jon should be around 5-6 months older than Dany if Jon was born at the TOJ as the Siege of Storm's End needs to have lasted for a couple of months after the Sack to have lasted the year that it did and Ned says he'd already ended the Siege before he got to the TOJ. Flawed as the math is to arrive at Jon being born at the TOJ when RLJ claims, Dany being born 9 months after the Sack needs to have happened to make it at all possible given GRRM's statements about their relative births.
So of course there's any resistance to the very idea that Dany isn't who she's supposed to be. Same as there's any resistance to Aegon being who he's supposed to be. This is the story of King Jon Targaryen I, not anybody else.
Anyway, they also tried to twist the response to mean something else about the Sealord, I think. He says it is significant.
Correct. GRRM's statement was that it was a significant discrepancy for lemon trees to be in Braavos. The Sealord's Palace is in Braavos. GRRM is saying that there shouldn't be any lemon trees in Braavos. Therefore there shouldn't be any lemon trees in the Sealord's Palace.
It's flawed logic as hell to say that GRRM confirming that lemon trees don't equal Braavos means that the Sealord's Palace explains the lemon trees.
Annnnnd you hit the nail right on the head,if Dany's conception,birth and early memory is false then people will need to rethink theories.Its very very doubtful that the stars were so much in agreement that the night Aerys burned Chelsted Dany was concieved.There's to much descrepancies surrounding Dany's conception and birth to put your head on a block and say "yep for sure that was the night" If no one has read it,please read Pretty Pig's Willem Darry thread as well as Frey Family Reunion's thread on the Red door.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
ts very very doubtful that the stars were so much in agreement that the night Aerys burned Chelsted Dany was concieved.There's to much descrepancies surrounding Dany's conception and birth to put your head on a block and say "yep for sure that was the night" If no one has read it,please read Pretty Pig's Willem Darry thread as well as Frey Family Reunion's thread on the Red door.
Agreed. It's all too perfect for Dany to have been born right when House Targaryen needed her to be, after decades of stillbirths and early childhood deaths for the children of Aerys and Rhaella, let alone House Targaryens familial history of this. And as you mention, there's an entire crap load of discrepancies surrounding Dany's birth and early years.
That aside, Dany is also the only character in the books as far as I can recall who's birthday is actually given a timeline. Which seems odd that GRRM would spell out that "9 moons" after the Sack that Dany was born on Dragonstone during "the greatest storm in Westoros' history" when he never marks anybody else's birth like that in our story. And this is when we have people like Catelyn saying that Robb was conceived on her wedding night with Eddard, but instead of saying "9 moons" later GRRM says that Catelyn brought forth Robb "while his father warred in the south". And we have Cersei saying that she believes that Joffrey was conceived during a visit to the Estermonts, but never that Joffrey was then born on X day 9 months later. Dany is the only who is given a conception night, and a birth night. He spelled out her timeline literally within the first few paragraphs of her first chapter in AGOT. That alone is suspicious IMO, especially once you look at everything else and notice that there's big problems with that.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Agreed. It's all too perfect for Dany to have been born right when House Targaryen needed her to be, after decades of stillbirths and early childhood deaths for the children of Aerys and Rhaella, let alone House Targaryens familial history of this. And as you mention, there's an entire crap load of discrepancies surrounding Dany's birth and early years.
Who do you think were Dany's parents? What about Viserys, do you think he was a Targ? I can't wrap my head around a different plot line right now, how it would end in the story- why would the Martells want to have an alliance?
i can guess that say she is Ashara's daughter, that the Daynes would conspire with the Martells, being that they would be allies, and it would be a way to put them into power for their justice, vengeance, fire and blood.
i suppose Aegon is the wild card. He'd still be Martell's nephew, though, so possibly he went through with this by betting on two horses to increase his odds of success?
the thing is, now that I think upon it, if Dany is an imposter, it would make sense because we know that Doran is a deep thinker, and doesn't make choices without thinking it through, unlike his unfortunate brother. He's sitting on a plan, and it sounds like he's going to be ruthless about it.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Rhaegar/Lyanna, Rhaegar/Ashara, Aerys/Lyanna, Aerys/Ashara, Rhaella/Darry, Rhaella/Rhaegar. Pretty much anything but Aerys/Rhaella. They had over 2 decades of failed children, and somehow they conceived Dany on their last night together when House Targaryen needed a new Targaryen most? Ya right.
Who said the Martells know anything about it? As Kevan Lannister says
“We have these tales coming from the east as well. A second Targaryen, and one whose blood no man can question. Daenerys Stormborn.”
No one doubts who Dany is. I don't see why the Martells would have to know she wasn't Aerys and Rhaella's. Actually I especially don't see why they'd have to know as Dorne is pretty much the most divided kingdom in Westoros. The Martell rule is nowhere near as strong as the other Great Houses rule over their region.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
I said. It was an idea. I'm saying that if she was a fake, maybe the Martells are in on it- they supposedly made a pact, right? Aren't the Martells the overlords in Dorne? I thought being the head honchos in their kingdom made them more powerful by default- in regards to Dorne.
otherwise, why worry about a Dornish alliance at all, and marry Myrcella to Trystane? Why not make an alliance with another Dornish house
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Taken together, I can't help but wonder if this is the reason for Viserys' arranged marriage, and if perhaps doubt/knowledge of Dany's parentage is the reason there was no such agreement for her.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Taken together, I can't help but wonder if this is the reason for Viserys' arranged marriage, and if perhaps doubt/knowledge of Dany's parentage is the reason there was no such agreement for her.
I thought it was supposed to be Viserys + Arianne and Dany + Quentyn?
ETA: ::facepalm:: Oh!! markg171- I realize my mistake now. I remember now: Quentyn approached Dany with the pact since Viserys died for Arianne!
As I slowly make my way through the books again, I remember this stuff in bits and pieces
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Post by regular jon umber on Aug 18, 2015 6:09:12 GMT
If Dany isn't Aerys's child, then it's plausible that she was picked up to pose as one so that Viserys had something to sell to the Dothraki.
And if this is true, and if she's not a Targaryen, then it throws a lot of theories regarding "needing dragonblood to ride a dragon" off the ship, because apparently, all you need is blood...
maybe the Martells are in on it- they supposedly made a pact, right?
Doran produced a piece of paper claiming an alliance was made after every single person who could have authenticated the paper died. Rather convenient for him I'd say.
Aren't the Martells the overlords in Dorne? I thought being the head honchos in their kingdom made them more powerful by default- in regards to Dorne.
The Martells are fairly weak. House Yronwood's as strong as them (and was in possession of House Martell's eldest son before Doran sent Quentyn to Essos) and has rebelled against them in pretty much every Blackfyre Rebellion, they're led by Doran The Cautious who refuses to engage in military activity, and Dorne riots fairly easily (Sunspear, House Martell's own city rioted over Oberyn's bastards being imprisoned lol). House Martell has the weakest grip on their region out of the Seven Kingdoms, save possibly the Vale. But that's only because the Vale is currently in a regency. When Jon Arryn/Lysa ruled the Vale the Vale was still completely loyal to it's ruler.
For instance, like imagine if Winterfell had rioted over Jon being imprisoned. It would never happen because no one would think they could get away with it. And it happened in Dorne over the guy who was 4th in line for the leadership of Dorne's bastards (Arianne, Quentyn, Trystane, Oberyn is the sucession after Doran). In Dorne everyone knows they can pretty much get away with anything as Doran won't interfere. Robb's bannermen immediately tested him to see if they were facing another Ned who would rule the North with an iron fist, and they were immediately stopped because a 15 year old wasn't going to be pushed around by people who were beneath him. All while NED WAS STILL ALIVE AND STILL LORD OF WINTERFELL. The North submitted themselves to someone WHO WASN'T THEIR LORD because HIS NAME WAS STARK. Dorne constantly pushes Doran's rule no matter how long he's rule. Dorne is the least united region at the moment.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
I thought it was supposed to be Viserys + Arianne and Dany + Quentyn?
ETA: Oh!! markg171- I realize my mistake now. I remember now: Quentyn approached Dany with the pact since Viserys died for Arianne!
As I slowly make my way through the books again, I remember this stuff in bits and pieces
Yup. Sorta. There was an agreement to wed Arianne to Viserys, making her queen of the 7k. Thus, all of Doran's poor attempts at betrothal. Once Viserys died, Quent set sail for Vengeance, Fire, and Blood.
Well, he got it. LOL. Poor Quent. The lad goes halfway around the world to hand Dany the key to the Seven Kingdoms, but Dany was caught between a betrothal to a disloyal son of a harpy with fighting pit ambitions, and a handsome guy who rubs his thumbs across the breasts of his carved knife-handles, neither of which have anything relevant to offer her, and neither of which she loves.
GRRM replaced the 5 year gap with Quent's burning face. Oh well. Whatever makes those dragons grow faster. They just needed some Dornish Red.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Doran produced a piece of paper claiming an alliance was made after every single person who could have authenticated the paper died. Rather convenient for him I'd say.
Maybe, maybe not. It sounds like a plan B. If they made the alliance earlier, they'd get got. For treason.
The Martells are fairly weak. House Yronwood's as strong as them (and was in possession of House Martell's eldest son before Doran sent Quentyn to Essos) and has rebelled against them in pretty much every Blackfyre Rebellion, they're led by Doran The Cautious who refuses to engage in military activity, and Dorne riots fairly easily (Sunspear, House Martell's own city rioted over Oberyn's bastards being imprisoned lol).
Lol! That's true. I guess they're like an unstable 3rd world country, as they also engage in guerrilla warfare. I thought Quentyn was a ward, not a hostage? I need to reread Feast, obviously... *groans*
. And it happened in Dorne over the guy who was 4th in line for the leadership of Dorne's bastards (Arianne, Quentyn, Trystane, Oberyn is the sucession after Doran). In Dorne everyone knows they can pretty much get away with anything as Doran won't interfere.
You mean Oberyn's bastards? Lol! They like him because he can fight. You think it has more to do with Doran though, than the Martells? Were the Martells always weak, or is this a Doran problem?
I expect Aegon to change that though.
You think he'll strong arm Doran, or take over?
One passage I read today that was interesting in Storm, was when Arstan/Barristan was with Dany in Astapor for her Unsullied. He told her not to buy slaves, that half the realm would rally for her, or something of that nature. (Paraphrasing). Made me wonder what he knows, because he wasn't Jorah, trying to get in Dany's pants, even if she reminds him of Ashara. Meaning, he must believe there are enough underground Targ loyalists, whether Dany or Aegon.
The crap she heard before about small folk sewing her banners in secret was bs, but that quote from Barristan made me stop and think.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones