GRRM replaced the 5 year gap with Quent's burning face.
Yeah, the death seemed pretty certain in the book. I don't see how people think he's alive, but I'll check out those theories someday to check it out. ::crackpot::
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
If Dany isn't Aerys's child, then it's plausible that she was picked up to pose as one so that Viserys had something to sell to the Dothraki.
And if this is true, and if she's not a Targaryen, then it throws a lot of theories regarding "needing dragonblood to ride a dragon" off the ship, because apparently, all you need is blood...
It would. But, she could still be a Targ without being who she thinks she is. I'm all for a Star Wars ending.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
If Dany isn't Aerys's child, then it's plausible that she was picked up to pose as one so that Viserys had something to sell to the Dothraki.
And if this is true, and if she's not a Targaryen, then it throws a lot of theories regarding "needing dragonblood to ride a dragon" off the ship, because apparently, all you need is blood...
It would. But, she could still be a Targ without being who she thinks she is. I'm all for a Star Wars ending.
Hmm. The only person she's compared to (physically) is Ashara.... ? + A = D...
Robert, I beg of you," Ned pleaded, "hear what you are saying. You are talking of murdering a child."
"The whore is pregnant!" The king's fist slammed down on the council table loud as a thunderclap. "I warned you this would happen, Ned. Back in the barrowlands, I warned you, but you did not care to hear it. Well, you'll hear it now. I want them dead, mother and child both, and that fool Viserys as well. Is that plain enough for you? I want them dead."
The other councillors were all doing their best to pretend that they were somewhere else. No doubt they were wiser than he was. Eddard Stark had seldom felt quite so alone. "You will dishonor yourself forever if you do this."
"Then let it be on my head, so long as it is done. I am not so blind that I cannot see the shadow of the axe when it is hanging over my own neck."
"There is no axe," Ned told his king. "Only the shadow of a shadow, twenty years removed . . . if it exists at all."
"If?" Varys asked softly, wringing powdered hands together. "My lord, you wrong me. Would I bring ties to king and council?"
Ned looked at the eunuch coldly. "You would bring us the whisperings of a traitor half a world away, my lord. Perhaps Mormont is wrong. Perhaps he is lying."
"Ser Jorah would not dare deceive me," Varys said with a sly smile. "Rely on it, my lord. The princess is with child."
"So you say. If you are wrong, we need not fear. If the girl miscarries, we need not fear. If she births a daughter in place of a son, we need not fear. If the babe dies in infancy, we need not fear."
"But if it is a boy?" Robert insisted. "If he lives?"
"The narrow sea would still lie between us. I shall fear the Dothraki the day they teach their horses to run on water."
The king took a swallow of wine and glowered at Ned across the council table. "So you would counsel me to do nothing until the dragonspawn has landed his army on my shores, is that it?"
"This ‘dragonspawn' is in his mother's belly," Ned said. "Even Aegon did no conquering until after he was weaned."
"Gods! You are stubborn as an aurochs, Stark." The king looked around the council table. "Have the rest of you mislaid your tongues? Will no one talk sense to this frozen-faced fool?"
Varys gave the king an unctuous smile and laid a soft hand on Ned's sleeve. "I understand your qualms, Lord Eddard, truly I do. It gave me no joy to bring this grievous news to council. It is a terrible thing we contemplate, a vile thing. Yet we who presume to rule must do vile things for the good of the realm, howevermuch it pains us."
Lord Renly shrugged. "The matter seems simple enough to me. We ought to have had Viserys and his sister killed years ago, but His Grace my brother made the mistake of listening to Jon Arryn."
"Mercy is never a mistake, Lord Renly," Ned replied. "On the Trident, Ser Barristan here cut down a dozen good men, Robert's friends and mine. When they brought him to us, grievously wounded and near death, Roose Bolton urged us to cut his throat, but your brother said, ‘I will not kill a man for loyalty, nor for fighting well,' and sent his own maester to tend Ser Barristan's wounds." He gave the king a long cool look. "Would that man were here today."
Robert had shame enough to blush. "It was not the same," he complained. "Ser Barristan was a knight of the Kingsguard."
"Whereas Daenerys is a fourteen-year-old girl." Ned knew he was pushing this well past the point of wisdom, yet he could not keep silent. "Robert, I ask you, what did we rise against Aerys Targaryen for, if not to put an end to the murder of children?"
"To put an end to Targaryens!" the king growled.
"Your Grace, I never knew you to fear Rhaegar." Ned fought to keep the scorn out of his voice, and failed. "Have the years so unmanned you that you tremble at the shadow of an unborn child?"
Robert purpled. "No more, Ned," he warned, pointing. "Not another word. Have you forgotten who is king here?"
"No, Your Grace," Ned replied. "Have you?"
"Enough!" the king bellowed. "I am sick of talk. I'll be done with this, or be damned. What say you all?"
"She must be killed," Lord Renly declared.
"We have no choice," murmured Varys. "Sadly, sadly . . . "
Ser Barristan Selmy raised his pale blue eyes from the table and said, "Your Grace, there is honor in facing an enemy on the battlefield, but none in killing him in his mother's womb. Forgive me, but I must stand with Lord Eddard."
Grand Maester Pycelle cleared his throat, a process that seemed to take some minutes. "My order serves the realm, not the ruler. Once I counseled King Aerys as loyally as I counsel King Robert now, so I bear this girl child of his no ill will. Yet I ask you this—should war come again, how many soldiers will die? How many towns will burn? How many children will be ripped from their mothers to perish on the end of a spear?" He stroked his luxuriant white beard, infinitely sad, infinitely weary. "Is it not wiser, even kinder, that Daenerys Targaryen should die now so that tens of thousands might live?"
"Kinder," Varys said. "Oh, well and truly spoken, Grand Maester. It is so true. Should the gods in their caprice grant Daenerys Targaryen a son, the realm must bleed."
Littlefinger was the last. As Ned looked to him, Lord Petyr stifled a yawn. "When you find yourself in bed with an ugly woman, the best thing to do is close your eyes and get on with it," he declared. "Waiting won't make the maid any prettier. Kiss her and be done with it."
"Kiss her?" Ser Barristan repeated, aghast.
"A steel kiss," said Littlefinger.
Robert turned to face his Hand. "Well, there it is, Ned. You and Selmy stand alone on this matter. The only question that remains is, who can we find to kill her?"
"Mormont craves a royal pardon," Lord Renly reminded them.
"Desperately," Varys said, "yet he craves life even more. By now, the princess nears Vaes Dothrak, where it is death to draw a blade. If I told you what the Dothraki would do to the poor man who used one on a khaleesi, none of you would sleep tonight." He stroked a powdered cheek. "Now, poison . . . the tears of Lys, let us say. Khal Drogo need never know it was not a natural death."
Grand Maester Pycelle's sleepy eyes flicked open. He squinted suspiciously at the eunuch.
"Poison is a coward's weapon," the king complained.
Ned had heard enough. "You send hired knives to kill a fourteen-year-old girl and still quibble about honor?" He pushed back his chair and stood. "Do it yourself, Robert. The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. Look her in the eyes before you kill her. See her tears, hear her last words. You owe her that much at least."
"Gods," the king swore, the word exploding out of him as if he could barely contain his fury. "You mean it, damn you." He reached for the flagon of wine at his elbow, found it empty, and flung it away to shatter against the wall. "I am out of wine and out of patience. Enough of this. Just have it done."
"I will not be part of murder, Robert. Do as you will, but do not ask me to fix my seal to it."
For a moment Robert did not seem to understand what Ned was saying. Defiance was not a dish he tasted often. Slowly his face changed as comprehension came. His eyes narrowed and a flush crept up his neck past the velvet collar. He pointed an angry finger at Ned. "You are the King's Hand, Lord Stark. You will do as I command you, or I'll find me a Hand who will."
"I wish him every success." Ned unfastened the heavy clasp that clutched at the folds of his cloak, the ornate silver hand that was his badge of office. He laid it on the table in front of the king, saddened by the memory of the man who had pinned it on him, the friend he had loved. "I thought you a better man than this, Robert. I thought we had made a nobler king."
Robert's face was purple. "Out," he croaked, choking on his rage. "Out, damn you, I'm done with you. What are you waiting for? Go, run back to Winterfell. And make certain I never look on your face again, or I swear, I'll have your head on a spike!"
Ned bowed, and turned on his heel without another word. He could feel Robert's eyes on his back. As he strode from the council chambers, the discussion resumed with scarcely a pause. "On Braavos there is a society called the Faceless Men," Grand Maester Pycelle offered.
"Do you have any idea how costly they are?" Littlefinger complained. "You could hire an army of common sellswords for half the price, and that's for a merchant. I don't dare think what they might ask for a princess."
"My order serves the realm, not the ruler. Once I counseled King Aerys as loyally as I counsel King Robert now, so I bear this girl child of his no ill will.
Yep. Such a loyal councillor you are, Pycelle. Open the gates!
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
if perhaps doubt/knowledge of Dany's parentage is the reason there was no such agreement for her.
I think it's indeed rather interesting that Kevan says that "Daenerys Stormborn"'s legacy was blood that no one could doubt... not that "Daenaerys Targaryen"s blood was something no one could doubt. He called her by her epithet, not her last name. Why not call her Danaerys Targaryen if she was Aerys and Rhaella's child? I think this might fit in with a few theories that Dany is a Targaryen bastard that the whole realm knows about. They don't call her Targaryen as she is not, but Kevan still acknowledges that everyone knows she is part Targaryen. I mean not to dive into RLJ, but it's not hard to see how Lyanna being raped by a Targaryen + honourable Ned Stark + Ned refusing to discuss Jon's motther couldn't equal part Targaryen Jon... why not 2 bastards? Most RLJers already assume that Lyanna and Rhaegar hit it off in 281. That means you've got almost 3 years between when people think Rhaegar and Lyanna hit it off and when their first child was born (regardless of RLJ I don't believe the TOJ happened in 283 as the wiki claims I think it's far more likely TOJ = 284)
IMO though the easiest solution is that Rhaella did die in childbirth... to a stillborn daughter. Someone was then replaced as this baby, either immediately on Dragonstone (Dragonstone during the Dance had tons of Targaryen bastards) or later on. Hence Viserys always calling Dany his "sweet sister" which is a derogatory sentence in the books to discuss someone who is a bitch, or someone you wished was your sister.
If Dany isn't Aerys's child, then it's plausible that she was picked up to pose as one so that Viserys had something to sell to the Dothraki.
A very good point, but I'd say that 13 year old Dany would at least have memories of her last 8-9 years to disrepute that she'd just showed up as Viserys' sister. But the idea that Dany was adopted to be sold for something? Great point. There is no more binding pact than a marriage one and Viserys was adamant that him having sold his sister to Drogo meant he had Drogo's khalasar at his command.
And if this is true, and if she's not a Targaryen, then it throws a lot of theories regarding "needing dragonblood to ride a dragon" off the ship, because apparently, all you need is blood...
GRRM has already said that the three heads of the dragon need not be Targaryens in an SSM. Nettles, who looked nothing like a Valyrian, bonded with a dragon by feeding it sheep every day. Euron produced an old dragonbinding horn and Dany says that Valyrians used to bind dragons through horns and whips (thereby implying blood wasn't as important as magic).
Yup. Sorta. There was an agreement to wed Arianne to Viserys, making her queen of the 7k. Thus, all of Doran's poor attempts at betrothal. Once Viserys died, Quent set sail for Vengeance, Fire, and Blood.
Which in itself is weird. Why send Quent? Why not send Oberyn who not only supposedly signed for Braavos, but had a history in Essos having toured the Free Cities and founded his own sellsword company? There's no reason to have sent Oberyn to King's Landing instead of Essos if you had Oberyn in play.
Maybe, maybe not. It sounds like a plan B. If they made the alliance earlier, they'd get got. For treason.
It's not really a plan B though. It's a plan "No one can prove I'm lying because no one who I claimed witnessed it is still alive" plan. It's literally just Doran's word.
Plus, Oberyn was restricted to Dorne after he tried to raise Westoros for Viserys in Robert's first year of his reign, then he rarely ever left Dorne in the following years. How did he possibly ever end up in Braavos if he wasn't allowed to leave/rarely left Dorne to have witnessed a marriage pact?
Plus
• Why did Oberyn sign for Dorne when Oberyn does not have authority over Dorne? Doran is ruler of Dorne, not Oberyn. Doran is the one who would have signed for Dorne in any allegiance for Dorne's troops. • How did Oberyn sign a marriage pact for someone else's daughter? Arianne is Doran's daughter, not his. Doran makes her marriage pacts, not Oberyn. • How did Willem Darry, a master-at-arms, possibly make a binding marriage pact for Viserys Targaryen? Darry is not Viserys' father, let alone a member of House Targaryen. He cannot just make a binding agreement for Viserys that is at all legal. • Doran mentions that Oberyn was ever the more overtly dangerous of the two, but that he himself was still dangerous in his own way. The grass that hides the viper is still capable of making it's own moves. A secret pact that never happened sounds about right.
I thought Quentyn was a ward, not a hostage? I need to reread Feast, obviously... *groans*
Quentyn was sent to House Yronwood to repair the rift caused by Oberyn killing Lord Yronwood in single combat using poison. He's a ward, but a ward specifically to ensure good behaviour by House Yronwood for Oberyn killing their previous lord dastardly.
You mean Oberyn's bastards? Lol! They like him because he can fight. You think it has more to do with Doran though, than the Martells? Were the Martells always weak, or is this a Doran problem?
Well to me it's just a little odd that House Martell's own city revolted over the imprisonment of the person who was 4th in line's bastards. The Sand Snakes were nowhere close to being powerful in legitimate Dornish politics, yet Sunspear revolted over their imprisonment. That means that Dorne favoured Oberyn's line over Doran's.
Hmm. The only person she's compared to (physically) is Ashara.... ? + A = D...
Actually Dany is compared to Ashara Dayne, Lynesse Hightower, and Naerys Targaryen. She's the character with the most references to other characters in the books.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Hmm. The only person she's compared to (physically) is Ashara.... ? + A = D...
Actually Dany is compared to Ashara Dayne, Lynesse Hightower, and Naerys Targaryen. She's the character with the most references to other characters in the books.
I forgot about Hightower, good catch. But Naerys? Can't find that one...
It's from an SSM between GRRM and an official Targaryen illustrator
NAERYS TARGARYEN [Note: The following continues GRRM's series of descriptions of notable Targaryens (and Targaryen bastards) for Amoka.]
The sister of King Aegon the Unworthy and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight was beautiful as well, but hers was a very fine and delicate beauty, almost unworldy. She was a wisp of a woman, smaller even than Dany (to whom she bears a certain resemblence), very slender, with big purple eyes and fine, pale, porcelain skin, near translucent. Naerys had none of Dany's strength, however. She was sickly as a child and almost died in the cradle; thereafter she found most physical activity to be very taxing. She loved music and poetry, played the harp very well, enjoyed sewing and embroidering. She was devout as well, and often found solace in the pages of The Seven-Pointed Star. After the birth of her son, she begged Aegon to have the Faith release her from her marriage vows so she could become a septa, but he refused. Naerys dressed well, but simply, and seldom wore her crown or any other jewelry. Though she had the silver-gold hair of the Targaryens, she often bound it up beneath a hair net or concealed it beneath a cowl. She ate but little and was painfully thin, almost emaciated. Her marriage was a very unhappy one, and it was said that only her son Daeron and her brother Aemon knew how to make her laugh. You will probably want to paint her sitting in a window seat, sewing or reading, with a sad and tired look on her face.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!