Post by LmL on Sept 24, 2015 3:27:44 GMT
Hey all, I am starting a new thread to discuss the idea of greenseers turned to fire magic because the idea came up in there astronomy thread and even the quick version of this theory was too long to put in a comment. This is not one of normal, polished essays, but rather me throwing together a quick draft from notes which I already had gathered together. There's not as much narrative, and I'm not going into super detail on every paragraph. This is basically a rough sketch to give you the general idea of what i am seeing. I am planning on writing a normal essay on the topic, but everyone here is pretty smart and can likely see what I am getting at without the normal level of explanation.
That all sounds like Cerrunos, Green Man, John Barelycorn, etc. No debate there. However...
Wait, who's this guy demanding blood sacrifice? This darker deity? That's not Cerrunos, ladies and gentlemen. Demanding human sacrifice.... has nothing to do with the lord of the greenwood. That is a darker horned god.
As for being sacrificed himself, well, that only fits about a thousand different deities, because many deities are based on the cycle of the seasons, which in turn parallels the solar cycle and the human life cycle. Cerrunos himself is not a resurrected god, at least from what we know, which is precious little because all we have are a couple of images of Cerrunos surrounded by animals. The Wiccan Horned God is sacrificed, and this is where the Oak and Holly King bifurcation comes into play, but now we are not just talking about a peaceful lord of animals anymore.
The following from Wikipedia:
Innana is one of many Mornigstar deities, a class which includes Osiris and Jesus and Lucifer and Quetzalcoatl, and many others, some of whom are female - Ishtar, Innana, and many goddesses based on Ishtar (Astarte). Again, there is always overlap with mythological deities and archetypes. Osiris, Mithras, Lucifer, and Jesus are all lords of the afterlife who aid in the crossing over to this realm after death. And of course most of these are sacrificed and resurrected in various ways.
But let's get back to ASOIAF.
Garth the Green had a distinctly un-green son, who was a different kind of horned person:
Hmm, drinking blood and growing black bulls horns? Yeah, that's not Cerrunos or Pan or Hern or John Barleycorn. It's not the Wiccan God either. This is something much darker, more satanic. Blood and bone is also the description of the appearance of a weirwood, building on the idea of a greenseer turning against nature and towards evil fire magic. Interestingly, there are a pair of matching shiny black horns, with some noteworthy associations:
This is the "fire for blood, blood for fire" dragonbinder horn. I don't think this belongs to Garth.
Melisandre burns the "fake" horn of Joramun at the Wall, and it has a matching description:
There seems to some weird overlap between the horn of Joramun, which is also associated with the shattering of the arm of Dorne because both events are said to wake giants in the earth, and the more demonic dragon horn... And both of them seem a match for the shiny black horns of our blood-drinking Bors the Breaker. Do these horns bind dragons to their will, or cause earthquakes? Well, if the dragonbinder horn is actually a cometbinder (dragon = comet), then the horn might do both. If human greenseers used dark magic and this horn to cause the moon collision which in turn caused the breaking of the arm by meteor, then we see that all the stories have a part of the truth, as is usually the case with ASOIAF myths.
Regarding the green men and blood sacrifice and the Hammer of the Waters:
Again, sacrificing humans to work blood magic - not Cerrunos. Not even the Wiccan Horned God. This is something darker.
This power is certainly beyond what we know of the cotf. And entirely inconsistent with their actions and mindset, so far as we know (which is little enough, admittedly). Gathering in a tower of a black fortress to work dark magic is even less consistent with cotf M.O. So, we just might have some other faction of greenseers, a darker faction willing to commit murder and blood sacrifice and destroy large parts of the planet. That's exactly what the Bloodstone Emperor is said to have done.
You'll note above that the Horned God is sometimes a green man with branches in place of antlers. This creates a natural symbolic association between horned green men and trees personified as humans, which of course makes sense because the greenseers are essentially merged people-trees. Now, why are trees constantly trying to destroy the moon? I would say, because the moon destruction is actually what caused the Hammer of the Waters to fall, because the Hammer was a moon meteor. A sun spear, a black bloodstone meteor. And indeed, one of the step stones is called Bloodstone.
Notice this is the chapter in the Nightfort where hear the story of the Nights King AND Bran hears about Coldhands and thinks he might be a green man from the Isle of Faces. I should add that after the tree symbolically pulls down the moon into the well, Sam the Black Leviathan rises from the deeps in dramatic fashion. The leviathan, the sea dragon, is a moon meteor, as I have laid out in this essay, and Sam has a "moon face" four times in the books, way more than anyone else. This is because Sam represents the leviathan, the moon meteor which landed in the sea. I'm not totally sure what George is doing here with that, but that is his symbolism. The moon drowns, and the black leviathan rises fro the depths, just as the Iron born rose front he depths with a burning brand or the fire of the sea dragon in hand, depending ion the version of the story.
But let's keep attacking the moon, oh you mean trees you. Going to pull from the Wayward Bride chapter, where Asha (a moon maiden) is being attacked by trees in every sense of the word:
Trees scratching at the face of the moon, and amidst rotting, drowned wheat. Wooden hearts = heart tree. These are greenseers trying to take down the moon. This is a clear inversion of the fertility / harvest aspects of the green man horned god. This is fitting, because the horned men who pulled down the moon were turning against the natural order. Against the green, and towards fire.
The sea dragon is another description of a moon meteor landing in the ocean, which is why it appears here right next to an earth-shaking horn blowing, a sweet sword, and a bloody moon. House Wynch of the Iron Islands has a sigil of a bloody crescent moon... And winch is something which pulls things... Crescent moons = horns as well as sacrifice. The sacrifice in this instance was the moon itself, just as many moon goddesses are trapped in the underworld by the lord of that realm (Persephone & Hades leap to mind).
Personified trees, trying to kill the moon maiden, just as the trees scratch at the moon. These are parallel depictions of the same idea. And what's this about trees being turned to warriors? How do you do that?
Oh, right, of course - blood sacrifice. Blood sacrifice to trees again, and trees turned to warriors. And look, hammering and sword smithing.
So, who are these fiery greenseers which I have imagined? Where are they?
Does this fiery horned Renly have anything to do with dead trees? Let's take a look at the scene where Renly is sacrificed, the last time we see him before he "appears" as ghostly, resurrected Renly, the fiery horned lord:
None of this sounds much like Cerrunos to me. And yes, the Oak and Holly King kill each other - I see that idea present here as Stannis kills Renly, then Renly kills Stannis's army. But neither Oak nor Holly King is a ghost with fiery antlers who leads an army of demons armored in darkness who appear like dead trees. Again, we are seeing a transition from a green man horned god to something much darker.
Is there by chance a scene with a personified tree turning into a fiery sorcerer? Why yes, yes there is:
A bit later:
You'll notice that the tree standing against the night in robes of living orange is a great match for the description of the red priests of R'hllor, who dress in robes of orange and red and yellow meant to look like flames. Much of this language actually mirrors that of the waking of dragons in Drogo's pyre scene, including tongues of flame licking at the belly of the night. That's because the transformation of greenseers into fiery greenseers is integral to the Azor Ahai story.
And look, a fiery bull. That's not Garth either. Gendry is indeed a smith, the kind that hammers night into steel, perhaps.
The fiery sorcerers of R'Hllor:
This is the scene where Benerro literally pantomimes by entire theory:
For some reason, there is a repeating pattern of fiery dancers and sorcerers waking from burning wood. First, take note that the Horned moon is known for dancing:
You'll recall that hands of gold are always cold, and Jaime's "cold hand" shines dully in the light in the light of the horned moon. In case I haven't mentioned, I have always thought Coldhands to be an indeed greenseer, if not an undead green man from the isle of faces.
As for these sorcerers and dancers wearing these fiery cloaks that wake from burning trees:
Recall that the trees hatre the moon maiden in there wooden hearts. That's a heart tree reference, as is this. Fire touches the heart of these weirwoods / greenseers, and sorcerers emerge to live again.
The god that was pulled down was the moon goddess. She was pulled down by fiery greenseers, or by Azor Ahai (Stannis in this scene), who was a fiery greenseer, imo. Same idea.
Old, dead trees live again in the fire. All of these descriptions are just to similar to be coincidence. Nearly every time he has a chance, George shows us fiery sorcerers and dancers waking from burning wood of one sort or another.
Burning trees personified as humans are the same as a stag man with burning antlers. Both are depictions of these fiery greenseers I am talking about.
Wolfmaid, if you're still reading, there are also an equal number of passages about trees personified in cold ways - having icy teeth, being armored in ice, standing in rows like an army, trees frozen and buried in snow that are personified as human... This is relevant to your "greenseer that controls the others" idea. He's not a greenseer anymore - he's been armored in ice and frozen. But he WAS a greenseer at one time, just as Azor Ahai / The Bloodstone Emperor was. Fire and Ice magic both go back to greenseer magic - that's my hypothesis. The green man horned god mythos is sued to create the green men and garth the Green, and the baphomt / goat head / satan ideas for the fiery greenseers.
I didn't get into the black goat of Qohor, but of course they do blood sacrifice there to the Black Goat and also to reforge V steel, or when they try to make new V steel. Vargo Hoat wears a black steel goat head helm, just to give us a way to connect the black goat with horned gods in ASOIAF.
There's a second half to all of this, which ties back to the Old Ones, but I am out of time for now.
There is disagreement even on his name. Garth Greenhand, we call him, but in the oldest tales he is named Garth Greenhair, or simply Garth the Green. Some stories say he had a green hands, green hair, or green skin overall. (A few even give him antlers, like a stag.) Others tell us that he dressed in green from head to foot and certainly this is how he is most commonly depicted in paintings, tapestries, and sculptures. Most likely, his sobriquet derived from his gifts as a gardener and a tiller of the soil – the one trait on which all the tales agree. "Garth made the corn right, the trees fruit, and the flowers bloom," the singers tell us.
Many of the more primitive peoples of the earth worship a fertility god or goddess, and Garth Greenhand as much and more in common with these deities. (TWOIAF, The Reach)
Many of the more primitive peoples of the earth worship a fertility god or goddess, and Garth Greenhand as much and more in common with these deities. (TWOIAF, The Reach)
That all sounds like Cerrunos, Green Man, John Barelycorn, etc. No debate there. However...
A few of the very old is tales of Garth green hand present us with a considerably darker deity, one who demanded blood sacrifice from his worshipers to ensure a bountiful harvest. In some stories the green God dies every autumn when the trees lose their leaves, only to be reborn with the coming of spring. This version of Garth is largely forgotten. (TWOAIF, The Reach)
Wait, who's this guy demanding blood sacrifice? This darker deity? That's not Cerrunos, ladies and gentlemen. Demanding human sacrifice.... has nothing to do with the lord of the greenwood. That is a darker horned god.
As for being sacrificed himself, well, that only fits about a thousand different deities, because many deities are based on the cycle of the seasons, which in turn parallels the solar cycle and the human life cycle. Cerrunos himself is not a resurrected god, at least from what we know, which is precious little because all we have are a couple of images of Cerrunos surrounded by animals. The Wiccan Horned God is sacrificed, and this is where the Oak and Holly King bifurcation comes into play, but now we are not just talking about a peaceful lord of animals anymore.
The following from Wikipedia:
The Horned God is one of the two primary deities found in Wicca and some related pagan religions. The Horned god represents the male part of the religion's duotheistic theological system, the other part being the female Triple Goddess or other Mother Goddess.[1] In common Wiccan belief, he is associated with nature, wilderness, sexuality, hunting, and the life cycle.[2]:32–34 Whilst depictions of the deity vary, he is always shown with either horns or antlers upon his head, often depicted as being theriocephalic (having a beast's head), in this way emphasizing "the union of the divine and the animal", the latter of which includes humanity.[3]:11
The term Horned God itself predates Wicca, and is an early 20th-century syncretic term for a horned or antlered anthropomorphic god with pseudohistorical origins.[4]
The Horned God has been explored within several psychological theories, and has become a recurrent theme in fantasy literature.[5]:872
The term Horned God itself predates Wicca, and is an early 20th-century syncretic term for a horned or antlered anthropomorphic god with pseudohistorical origins.[4]
The Horned God has been explored within several psychological theories, and has become a recurrent theme in fantasy literature.[5]:872
For Wiccans, the Horned God is "the personification of the life force energy in animals and the wild"[6] and is associated with the wilderness, virility and the hunt.[7]:16 Doreen Valiente writes that the Horned God also carries the souls of the dead to the underworld.[8]
Wiccans generally, as well as some other neopagans, tend to conceive of the universe as polarized into gender opposites of male and female energies. In traditional Wicca, the Horned God and the Goddess are seen as equal and opposite in gender polarity. However, in some of the newer traditions of Wicca, and especially those influenced by feminist ideology, there is more emphasis on the Goddess, and consequently the symbolism of the Horned God is less developed than that of the Goddess.[9]:154 In Wicca the cycle of the seasons is celebrated during eight sabbats called The Wheel of the Year. The seasonal cycle is imagined to follow the relationship between the Horned God and the Goddess.[7] The Horned God is born in winter, impregnates the Goddess and then dies during the autumn and winter months and is then reborn by the Goddess at Yule.[10] The different relationships throughout the year are sometimes distinguished by splitting the god into aspects, the Oak King and the Holly King.[7] The relationships between the Goddess and the Horned God are mirrored by Wiccans in seasonal rituals. There is some variation between Wiccan groups as to which sabbat corresponds to which part of the cycle. Some Wiccans regard the Horned God as dying at Lammas, August 1; also known as Lughnasadh, which is the first harvest sabbat. Others may see him dying at Mabon, the autumn equinox, or the second harvest festival. Still other Wiccans conceive of the Horned God dying on October 31, which Wiccans call Samhain, the ritual of which is focused on death. He is then reborn on Winter Solstice, December 21.[11]:190
Wiccans generally, as well as some other neopagans, tend to conceive of the universe as polarized into gender opposites of male and female energies. In traditional Wicca, the Horned God and the Goddess are seen as equal and opposite in gender polarity. However, in some of the newer traditions of Wicca, and especially those influenced by feminist ideology, there is more emphasis on the Goddess, and consequently the symbolism of the Horned God is less developed than that of the Goddess.[9]:154 In Wicca the cycle of the seasons is celebrated during eight sabbats called The Wheel of the Year. The seasonal cycle is imagined to follow the relationship between the Horned God and the Goddess.[7] The Horned God is born in winter, impregnates the Goddess and then dies during the autumn and winter months and is then reborn by the Goddess at Yule.[10] The different relationships throughout the year are sometimes distinguished by splitting the god into aspects, the Oak King and the Holly King.[7] The relationships between the Goddess and the Horned God are mirrored by Wiccans in seasonal rituals. There is some variation between Wiccan groups as to which sabbat corresponds to which part of the cycle. Some Wiccans regard the Horned God as dying at Lammas, August 1; also known as Lughnasadh, which is the first harvest sabbat. Others may see him dying at Mabon, the autumn equinox, or the second harvest festival. Still other Wiccans conceive of the Horned God dying on October 31, which Wiccans call Samhain, the ritual of which is focused on death. He is then reborn on Winter Solstice, December 21.[11]:190
Whilst the Horned God is the most common depiction of masculine divinity in Wicca, he is not the only representation. Other examples include the Green Man and the Sun God.[2] In traditional Wicca, however, these other representations of the Wiccan god are subsumed or amalgamated into the Horned God, as aspects or expressions of him. Sometimes this is shown by adding horns or antlers to the iconography. The Green Man, for example, may be shown with branches resembling antlers; and the Sun God may be depicted with a crown or halo of solar rays, that may resemble horns. These other conceptions of the Wiccan god should not be regarded as displacing the Horned God, but rather as elaborating on various facets of his nature. Doreen Valiente has called the Horned God "the eldest of gods" in both The Witches Creed and also in her Invocation To The Horned God.
Wiccans believe that The Horned God, as Lord of Death, is their "comforter and consoler" after death and before reincarnation; and that he rules the Underworld or Summerland where the souls of the dead reside as they await rebirth. Some, such as Joanne Pearson, believes that this is based on the Mesopotamian myth of Innana's descent into the underworld, though this has not been confirmed.[13]:147
Wiccans believe that The Horned God, as Lord of Death, is their "comforter and consoler" after death and before reincarnation; and that he rules the Underworld or Summerland where the souls of the dead reside as they await rebirth. Some, such as Joanne Pearson, believes that this is based on the Mesopotamian myth of Innana's descent into the underworld, though this has not been confirmed.[13]:147
Innana is one of many Mornigstar deities, a class which includes Osiris and Jesus and Lucifer and Quetzalcoatl, and many others, some of whom are female - Ishtar, Innana, and many goddesses based on Ishtar (Astarte). Again, there is always overlap with mythological deities and archetypes. Osiris, Mithras, Lucifer, and Jesus are all lords of the afterlife who aid in the crossing over to this realm after death. And of course most of these are sacrificed and resurrected in various ways.
But let's get back to ASOIAF.
Garth the Green had a distinctly un-green son, who was a different kind of horned person:
Bors the Breaker, Who gained the strength of 20 men by drinking only bull's blood and founded House Bulwer of Blackcrown. (Some tales claim Bors drank so much bull's blood that he grew a pair of shiny black horns.)
According to semi-canon sources their arms depict a bull's skull, bone over blood.[1] Their words do not appear in the books, but according to semi-canon sources they are «Death Before Disgrace» (WIKI)
Hmm, drinking blood and growing black bulls horns? Yeah, that's not Cerrunos or Pan or Hern or John Barleycorn. It's not the Wiccan God either. This is something much darker, more satanic. Blood and bone is also the description of the appearance of a weirwood, building on the idea of a greenseer turning against nature and towards evil fire magic. Interestingly, there are a pair of matching shiny black horns, with some noteworthy associations:
The horn he blew was shiny black and twisted, and taller than a man as he held it with both hands. It was bound about with bands of red gold and dark steel, incised with ancient Valyrian glyphs that seemed to glow redly as the sound swelled.
The hornblower’s breath failed at last. He staggered and almost fell. The priest saw Orkwood of Orkmont catch him by one arm to hold him up, whilst Left- Hand Lucas Codd took the twisted black horn from his hands. A thin wisp of smoke was rising from the horn, and the priest saw blood and blisters upon the lips of the man who’d sounded it. The bird on his chest was bleeding too.
(AFFC, The Drowned Man)
The hornblower’s breath failed at last. He staggered and almost fell. The priest saw Orkwood of Orkmont catch him by one arm to hold him up, whilst Left- Hand Lucas Codd took the twisted black horn from his hands. A thin wisp of smoke was rising from the horn, and the priest saw blood and blisters upon the lips of the man who’d sounded it. The bird on his chest was bleeding too.
(AFFC, The Drowned Man)
This is the "fire for blood, blood for fire" dragonbinder horn. I don't think this belongs to Garth.
Melisandre burns the "fake" horn of Joramun at the Wall, and it has a matching description:
...a bronze-headed spear lying beside that big black . . . horn.
Jon sucked in his breath. A warhorn, a bloody great warhorn.
The horn was huge, eight feet along the curve and so wide at the mouth that he could have put his arm inside up to the elbow. If this came from an aurochs, it was the biggest that ever lived. At first he thought the bands around it were bronze, but when he moved closer he realized they were gold. Old gold, more brown than yellow, and graven with runes. (ASOS, Jon)
Jon sucked in his breath. A warhorn, a bloody great warhorn.
The horn was huge, eight feet along the curve and so wide at the mouth that he could have put his arm inside up to the elbow. If this came from an aurochs, it was the biggest that ever lived. At first he thought the bands around it were bronze, but when he moved closer he realized they were gold. Old gold, more brown than yellow, and graven with runes. (ASOS, Jon)
“ FREE FOLK! Here stands your king of lies. And here is the horn he promised would bring down the Wall.” Two queen’s men brought forth the Horn of Joramun, black and banded with old gold, eight feet long from end to end. Runes were carved into the golden bands, the writing of the First Men. Joramun had died thousands of years ago, but Mance had found his grave beneath a glacier, high up in the Frostfangs. And Joramun blew the Horn of Winter, and woke giants from the earth.
“The Horn of Joramun?” Melisandre said. “No. Call it the Horn of Darkness. If the Wall falls, night falls as well, the long night that never ends. It must not happen, will not happen! The Lord of Light has seen his children in their peril and sent a champion to them, Azor Ahai reborn.” She swept a hand toward Stannis, and the great ruby at her throat pulsed with light.
The horn crashed amongst the logs and leaves and kindling. Within three heartbeats the whole pit was aflame.
“The Horn of Joramun?” Melisandre said. “No. Call it the Horn of Darkness. If the Wall falls, night falls as well, the long night that never ends. It must not happen, will not happen! The Lord of Light has seen his children in their peril and sent a champion to them, Azor Ahai reborn.” She swept a hand toward Stannis, and the great ruby at her throat pulsed with light.
The horn crashed amongst the logs and leaves and kindling. Within three heartbeats the whole pit was aflame.
There seems to some weird overlap between the horn of Joramun, which is also associated with the shattering of the arm of Dorne because both events are said to wake giants in the earth, and the more demonic dragon horn... And both of them seem a match for the shiny black horns of our blood-drinking Bors the Breaker. Do these horns bind dragons to their will, or cause earthquakes? Well, if the dragonbinder horn is actually a cometbinder (dragon = comet), then the horn might do both. If human greenseers used dark magic and this horn to cause the moon collision which in turn caused the breaking of the arm by meteor, then we see that all the stories have a part of the truth, as is usually the case with ASOIAF myths.
Regarding the green men and blood sacrifice and the Hammer of the Waters:
The children fought back as best they could, but the First Men were larger and stronger. Riding their horses, clad and armed in bronze, the First Men overwhelmed the elder race wherever they met, for the weapons of the children were made of bone and wood and dragonglass. Finally, driven by desperation, the little people turned to sorcery and beseeched their greenseers to stem the tide of these invaders.
And so they did, gathering in their hundreds (some say on the Isle of Faces), and calling on their old gods with song and prayer and grisly sacrifice (a thousand captive men were fed to the weirwood, one version of the tale goes, whilst another claims the children used the blood of their own young). And the old gods stirred, and giants awoke in the earth, and all of Westeros shook and trembled. Great cracks appeared in the earth,and hills and mountains collapsed and were swallowed up. And then the seas came rushing in, and the Arm of Dorne was broken and shattered by the force of the water, until only a few bare rocky islands remained above the waves. The Summer Sea joined the narrow sea, and the bridge between Essos and Westeros vanished for all time. Or so the legend says. (TWOAIF, Dorne, “The Breaking”)
And so they did, gathering in their hundreds (some say on the Isle of Faces), and calling on their old gods with song and prayer and grisly sacrifice (a thousand captive men were fed to the weirwood, one version of the tale goes, whilst another claims the children used the blood of their own young). And the old gods stirred, and giants awoke in the earth, and all of Westeros shook and trembled. Great cracks appeared in the earth,and hills and mountains collapsed and were swallowed up. And then the seas came rushing in, and the Arm of Dorne was broken and shattered by the force of the water, until only a few bare rocky islands remained above the waves. The Summer Sea joined the narrow sea, and the bridge between Essos and Westeros vanished for all time. Or so the legend says. (TWOAIF, Dorne, “The Breaking”)
Legend says that the great floods that broke the land bridge that is now the Broken Arm and made the Neck a swamp were the work of the greenseers, who gathered at Moat Cailin to work dark magic. Some contest this, however: the First Men were already in Westeros when this occurred, and stemming the tide from the east would do little more than slow their progress. Moreover, such power is beyond even what the greenseers are traditionally said to have been capable of… and even those accounts appear exaggerated. It is likelier that the inundation of the Neck and the breaking of the Arm were natural events, possibly caused by a natural sinking of the land. What became of Valyria is well-known, and in the Iron Islands, the castle of Pyke sits on stacks of stone that were once part of the greater island before segments of it crumbled into the sea. (TWOIAF, “The Coming of the First Men”)
This power is certainly beyond what we know of the cotf. And entirely inconsistent with their actions and mindset, so far as we know (which is little enough, admittedly). Gathering in a tower of a black fortress to work dark magic is even less consistent with cotf M.O. So, we just might have some other faction of greenseers, a darker faction willing to commit murder and blood sacrifice and destroy large parts of the planet. That's exactly what the Bloodstone Emperor is said to have done.
You'll note above that the Horned God is sometimes a green man with branches in place of antlers. This creates a natural symbolic association between horned green men and trees personified as humans, which of course makes sense because the greenseers are essentially merged people-trees. Now, why are trees constantly trying to destroy the moon? I would say, because the moon destruction is actually what caused the Hammer of the Waters to fall, because the Hammer was a moon meteor. A sun spear, a black bloodstone meteor. And indeed, one of the step stones is called Bloodstone.
Bran wriggled closer to the fire. The warmth felt good, and the soft crackling of flames soothed him, but sleep would not come. Outside the wind was sending armies of dead leaves marching across the courtyards to scratch faintly at the doors and windows. The sounds made him think of Old Nan’s stories. He could almost hear the ghostly sentinels calling to each other atop the Wall and winding their ghostly warhorns. Pale moonlight slanted down through the hole in the dome, painting the branches of the weirwood as they strained up toward the roof. It looked as if the tree was trying to catch the moon and drag it down into the well. Old gods, Bran prayed, if you hear me, don’t send a dream tonight. Or if you do, make it a good dream. The gods made no answer. (ASOS, Bran)
Notice this is the chapter in the Nightfort where hear the story of the Nights King AND Bran hears about Coldhands and thinks he might be a green man from the Isle of Faces. I should add that after the tree symbolically pulls down the moon into the well, Sam the Black Leviathan rises from the deeps in dramatic fashion. The leviathan, the sea dragon, is a moon meteor, as I have laid out in this essay, and Sam has a "moon face" four times in the books, way more than anyone else. This is because Sam represents the leviathan, the moon meteor which landed in the sea. I'm not totally sure what George is doing here with that, but that is his symbolism. The moon drowns, and the black leviathan rises fro the depths, just as the Iron born rose front he depths with a burning brand or the fire of the sea dragon in hand, depending ion the version of the story.
But let's keep attacking the moon, oh you mean trees you. Going to pull from the Wayward Bride chapter, where Asha (a moon maiden) is being attacked by trees in every sense of the word:
Men and mounts alike were trotting by the time they reached the trees on the far side of the sodden field, where dead shoots of winter wheat rotted beneath the moon. Asha held her horsemen back as a rear guard, to keep the stragglers moving and see that no one was left behind. Tall soldier pines and gnarled old oaks closed in around them. Deepwood was aptly named. The trees were huge and dark, somehow threatening. Their limbs wove through one another and creaked with every breath of wind, and their higher branches scratched at the face of the moon. The sooner we are shut of here, the better I will like it , Asha thought. The trees hate us all, deep in their wooden hearts.
Trees scratching at the face of the moon, and amidst rotting, drowned wheat. Wooden hearts = heart tree. These are greenseers trying to take down the moon. This is a clear inversion of the fertility / harvest aspects of the green man horned god. This is fitting, because the horned men who pulled down the moon were turning against the natural order. Against the green, and towards fire.
Asha took Tris Botley by the ears and kissed him full upon the lips. He was red and breathless by the time she let him go. “What was that?” he said. “A kiss, it’s called. Drown me for a fool, Tris, I should have remembered— ” She broke off suddenly. {...}
When Tris tried to speak, she shushed him, listening. “That’s a warhorn. Hagen.”The other half stood safely off to sea, with orders to raise sail and make for Sea Dragon Point if the northmen took the strand. “Hagen, blow your horn and make the forest shake. Tris, don some mail, it’s time you tried out that sweet sword of yours.” When she saw how pale he was, she pinched his cheek. “Splash some blood upon the moon with me, and I promise you a kiss for every kill.”
When Tris tried to speak, she shushed him, listening. “That’s a warhorn. Hagen.”The other half stood safely off to sea, with orders to raise sail and make for Sea Dragon Point if the northmen took the strand. “Hagen, blow your horn and make the forest shake. Tris, don some mail, it’s time you tried out that sweet sword of yours.” When she saw how pale he was, she pinched his cheek. “Splash some blood upon the moon with me, and I promise you a kiss for every kill.”
The sea dragon is another description of a moon meteor landing in the ocean, which is why it appears here right next to an earth-shaking horn blowing, a sweet sword, and a bloody moon. House Wynch of the Iron Islands has a sigil of a bloody crescent moon... And winch is something which pulls things... Crescent moons = horns as well as sacrifice. The sacrifice in this instance was the moon itself, just as many moon goddesses are trapped in the underworld by the lord of that realm (Persephone & Hades leap to mind).
The wooden watchtower was the tallest thing this side of the mountains, rising twenty feet above the biggest sentinels and soldier pines in the surrounding woods. “There, Captain,” said Cromm, when she made the platform. Asha saw only trees and shadows, the moonlit hills and the snowy peaks beyond. Then she realized that trees were creeping closer. “Oho,” she laughed, “these mountain goats have cloaked themselves in pine boughs.” The woods were on the move, creeping toward the castle like a slow green tide. She thought back to a tale she had heard as a child, about the children of the forest and their battles with the First Men, when the greenseers turned the trees to warriors.
I was a beggar queen and you were Xaro of the Thirteen, Dany thought, and all you wanted were my dragons. “Your slaves seemed well treated and content. It was not till Astapor that my eyes were opened. Do you know how Unsullied are made and trained?”
“Cruelly, I have no doubt. When a smith makes a sword, he thrusts the blade into the fire, beats on it with a hammer, then plunges it into iced water to temper the steel. If you would savor the sweet taste of the fruit, you must water the tree.”
“This tree has been watered with blood.”
“How else, to grow a soldier? (ADWD, Daenerys)
“Cruelly, I have no doubt. When a smith makes a sword, he thrusts the blade into the fire, beats on it with a hammer, then plunges it into iced water to temper the steel. If you would savor the sweet taste of the fruit, you must water the tree.”
“This tree has been watered with blood.”
“How else, to grow a soldier? (ADWD, Daenerys)
Oh, right, of course - blood sacrifice. Blood sacrifice to trees again, and trees turned to warriors. And look, hammering and sword smithing.
So, who are these fiery greenseers which I have imagined? Where are they?
They plunged through Stannis like a lance through a pumpkin, every man of them howling like some demon in steel. And do you know who led the vanguard? Do you? Do you? Do you? ”
“Robb?” It was too much to be hoped, but …
“It was Lord Renly! Lord Renly in his green armor, with the fires shimmering off his golden antlers! Lord Renly with his tall spear in his hand! They say he killed Ser Guyard Morrigen himself in single combat, and a dozen other great knights as well. It was Renly, it was Renly, it was Renly! Oh! the banners, darling Sansa! Oh! to be a knight!” (ACOK, SANSA)
“Robb?” It was too much to be hoped, but …
“It was Lord Renly! Lord Renly in his green armor, with the fires shimmering off his golden antlers! Lord Renly with his tall spear in his hand! They say he killed Ser Guyard Morrigen himself in single combat, and a dozen other great knights as well. It was Renly, it was Renly, it was Renly! Oh! the banners, darling Sansa! Oh! to be a knight!” (ACOK, SANSA)
The Lannisters had taken him from the flank, and his fickle bannermen had abandoned him by the hundreds in the hour of his greatest need. “King Renly’s shade was seen as well,” the captain said, “slaying right and left as he led the lion lord’s van. It’s said his green armor took a ghostly glow from the wildfire, and his antlers ran with golden flames.” (ASOS, Davos)
Does this fiery horned Renly have anything to do with dead trees? Let's take a look at the scene where Renly is sacrificed, the last time we see him before he "appears" as ghostly, resurrected Renly, the fiery horned lord:
The long ranks of man and horse were armored in darkness, as black as if the Smith had hammered night itself into steel. There were banners to her right, banners to her left, and rank on rank of banners before her, but in the predawn gloom, neither colors nor sigils could be discerned. A grey army, Catelyn thought. Grey men on grey horses beneath grey banners. As they sat their horses waiting, Renly’s shadow knights pointed their lances upward, so she rode through a forest of tall naked trees, bereft of leaves and life. Where Storm’s End stood was only a deeper darkness, a wall of black through which no stars could shine, but she could see torches moving across the fields where Lord Stannis had made his camp. The candles within Renly’s pavilion made the shimmering silken walls seem to glow, transforming the great tent into a magical castle alive with emerald light.
[...]
It was pleasantly warm inside, the heat shimmering off the coals in a dozen small iron braziers.
[...]
The king’s armor was a deep green, the green of leaves in a summer wood, so dark it drank the candlelight.
[...]
Dawn was the chosen hour.”
“Chosen by Stannis,” Randyll Tarly pointed out. “He’d have us charge into the teeth of the rising sun. We’ll be half- blind.”
[...]
It was cloth- of- gold, heavy, with the crowned stag of Baratheon picked out in flakes of jet.
[...]
Brienne brought the king’s gauntlets and greathelm, crowned with golden antlers that would add a foot and a half to his height.
[...]
“I beg you in the name of the Mother,” Catelyn began when a sudden gust of wind flung open the door of the tent. She thought she glimpsed movement, but when she turned her head, it was only the king’s shadow shifting against the silken walls. She heard Renly begin a jest, his shadow moving, lifting its sword, black on green, candles guttering, shivering, something was queer, wrong, and then she saw Renly’s sword still in its scabbard, sheathed still, but the shadowsword … “Cold,” said Renly in a small puzzled voice, a heartbeat before the steel of his gorget parted like cheesecloth beneath the shadow of a blade that was not there. He had time to make a small thick gasp before the blood came gushing out of his throat. “Your Gr— no! ” cried Brienne the Blue when she saw that evil flow, sounding as scared as any little girl. The king stumbled into her arms, a sheet of blood creeping down the front of his armor, a dark red tide that drowned his green and gold. More candles guttered out. Renly tried to speak, but he was choking on his own blood. His legs collapsed, and only Brienne’s strength held him up. She threw back her head and screamed, wordless in her anguish. The shadow. Something dark and evil had happened here, she knew, something that she could not begin to understand. Renly never cast that shadow. Death came in that door and blew the life out of him as swift as the wind snuffed out his candles.
ACOK, CATELYN
[...]
It was pleasantly warm inside, the heat shimmering off the coals in a dozen small iron braziers.
[...]
The king’s armor was a deep green, the green of leaves in a summer wood, so dark it drank the candlelight.
[...]
Dawn was the chosen hour.”
“Chosen by Stannis,” Randyll Tarly pointed out. “He’d have us charge into the teeth of the rising sun. We’ll be half- blind.”
[...]
It was cloth- of- gold, heavy, with the crowned stag of Baratheon picked out in flakes of jet.
[...]
Brienne brought the king’s gauntlets and greathelm, crowned with golden antlers that would add a foot and a half to his height.
[...]
“I beg you in the name of the Mother,” Catelyn began when a sudden gust of wind flung open the door of the tent. She thought she glimpsed movement, but when she turned her head, it was only the king’s shadow shifting against the silken walls. She heard Renly begin a jest, his shadow moving, lifting its sword, black on green, candles guttering, shivering, something was queer, wrong, and then she saw Renly’s sword still in its scabbard, sheathed still, but the shadowsword … “Cold,” said Renly in a small puzzled voice, a heartbeat before the steel of his gorget parted like cheesecloth beneath the shadow of a blade that was not there. He had time to make a small thick gasp before the blood came gushing out of his throat. “Your Gr— no! ” cried Brienne the Blue when she saw that evil flow, sounding as scared as any little girl. The king stumbled into her arms, a sheet of blood creeping down the front of his armor, a dark red tide that drowned his green and gold. More candles guttered out. Renly tried to speak, but he was choking on his own blood. His legs collapsed, and only Brienne’s strength held him up. She threw back her head and screamed, wordless in her anguish. The shadow. Something dark and evil had happened here, she knew, something that she could not begin to understand. Renly never cast that shadow. Death came in that door and blew the life out of him as swift as the wind snuffed out his candles.
ACOK, CATELYN
None of this sounds much like Cerrunos to me. And yes, the Oak and Holly King kill each other - I see that idea present here as Stannis kills Renly, then Renly kills Stannis's army. But neither Oak nor Holly King is a ghost with fiery antlers who leads an army of demons armored in darkness who appear like dead trees. Again, we are seeing a transition from a green man horned god to something much darker.
Is there by chance a scene with a personified tree turning into a fiery sorcerer? Why yes, yes there is:
For a moment she thought the town was full of lantern bugs. Then she realized they were men with torches, galloping between the houses. She saw a roof go up, flames licking at the belly of the night with hot orange tongues as the thatch caught. Another followed, and then another, and soon there were fires blazing everywhere. Gendry climbed up beside her, wearing his helm. “How many?”
Arya tried to count, but they were riding too fast, torches spinning through the air as they flung them. “A hundred,” she said. “Two hundred, I don’t know.” Over the roar of the flames, she could hear shouts. “They’ll come for us soon.”
“There,” Gendry said, pointing. A column of riders moved between the burning buildings toward the holdfast. Firelight glittered off metal helms and spattered their mail and plate with orange and yellow highlights. One carried a banner on a tall lance. She thought it was red, but it was hard to tell in the night, with the fires roaring all around. Everything seemed red or black or orange. The fire leapt from one house to another. Arya saw a tree consumed, the flames creeping across its branches until it stood against the night in robes of living orange.
Arya tried to count, but they were riding too fast, torches spinning through the air as they flung them. “A hundred,” she said. “Two hundred, I don’t know.” Over the roar of the flames, she could hear shouts. “They’ll come for us soon.”
“There,” Gendry said, pointing. A column of riders moved between the burning buildings toward the holdfast. Firelight glittered off metal helms and spattered their mail and plate with orange and yellow highlights. One carried a banner on a tall lance. She thought it was red, but it was hard to tell in the night, with the fires roaring all around. Everything seemed red or black or orange. The fire leapt from one house to another. Arya saw a tree consumed, the flames creeping across its branches until it stood against the night in robes of living orange.
Through the slits of his helm, the Bull’s eyes shone with reflected fire.
And look, a fiery bull. That's not Garth either. Gendry is indeed a smith, the kind that hammers night into steel, perhaps.
The fiery sorcerers of R'Hllor:
Huge nightfires burned beside the temple steps, and between them the High Priest had begun to speak. Benerro. The priest stood atop a red stone pillar, joined by a slender stone bridge to a lofty terrace where the lesser priests and acolytes stood. The acolytes were clad in robes of pale yellow and bright orange, priests and priestesses in red. (ADWD, Tyrion)
Benerro jabbed a finger at the moon, made a fist, spread his hands wide. When his voice rose in a crescendo, flames leapt from his fingers with a sudden whoosh and made the crowd gasp. The priest could trace fiery letters in the air as well. Valyrian glyphs. Tyrion recognized perhaps two in ten; one was Doom, the other Darkness.
For some reason, there is a repeating pattern of fiery dancers and sorcerers waking from burning wood. First, take note that the Horned moon is known for dancing:
He opened the shutters. The night was growing cold, and a horned moon rode the sky. His hand shone dully in its light. No good for throttling eunuchs, but heavy enough to smash that slimy smile into a fine red ruin . He wanted to hit someone.
...
Ser Ilyn raised his blade in reply, and Jaime moved at once to the attack. Payne was as rusty as his ringmail, and not so strong as Brienne, yet he met every cut with his own blade, or interposed his shield. They danced beneath the horned moon as the blunted swords sang their steely song. (AFFC, Jaime)
...
Ser Ilyn raised his blade in reply, and Jaime moved at once to the attack. Payne was as rusty as his ringmail, and not so strong as Brienne, yet he met every cut with his own blade, or interposed his shield. They danced beneath the horned moon as the blunted swords sang their steely song. (AFFC, Jaime)
Even so, it was full dark before they reached the stout castle that stood at the foot of the Giant’s Lance. Torches flickered atop its ramparts, and the horned moon danced upon the dark waters of its moat. The drawbridge was up and the portcullis down, but Catelyn saw lights burning in the gatehouse and spilling from the windows of the square towers beyond. “The Gates of the Moon,” her uncle said as the party drew rein. His standard-bearer rode to the edge of the moat to hail the men in the gatehouse. “Lord Nestor’s seat. He should be expecting us. Look up.” Catelyn raised her eyes, up and up and up. At first all she saw was stone and trees, the looming mass of the great mountain shrouded in night, as black as a starless sky. Then she noticed the glow of distant fires well above them; a tower keep, built upon the steep side of the mountain, its lights like orange eyes staring down from above. Above that was another, higher and more distant, and still higher a third, no more than a flickering spark in the sky. And finally, up where the falcons soared, a flash of white in the moonlight. (AGOT, Catelyn)
You'll recall that hands of gold are always cold, and Jaime's "cold hand" shines dully in the light in the light of the horned moon. In case I haven't mentioned, I have always thought Coldhands to be an indeed greenseer, if not an undead green man from the isle of faces.
As for these sorcerers and dancers wearing these fiery cloaks that wake from burning trees:
The flames writhed before her like the women who had danced at her wedding, whirling and singing and spinning their yellow and orange and crimson veils, fearsome to behold, yet lovely, so lovely, alive with heat. Dany opened her arms to them, her skin flushed and glowing. This is a wedding, too, she thought.
The flames were so beautiful, the loveliest things she had ever seen, each one a sorcerer robed in yellow and orange and scarlet, swirling long smoky cloaks. [...]
And there came a second crack, loud and sharp as thunder, and the smoke stirred and whirled around her and the pyre shifted, the logs exploding as the fire touched their secret hearts. (AGOT, Daenerys)
The flames were so beautiful, the loveliest things she had ever seen, each one a sorcerer robed in yellow and orange and scarlet, swirling long smoky cloaks. [...]
And there came a second crack, loud and sharp as thunder, and the smoke stirred and whirled around her and the pyre shifted, the logs exploding as the fire touched their secret hearts. (AGOT, Daenerys)
They were all afire now, Maid and Mother, Warrior and Smith, the Crone with her pearl eyes and the Father with his gilded beard; even the Stranger, carved to look more animal than human. The old dry wood and countless layers of paint and varnish blazed with a fierce hungry light. Heat rose shimmering through the chill air; behind, the gargoyles and stone dragons on the castle walls seemed blurred, as if Davos were seeing them through a veil of tears. Or as if the beasts were trembling, stirring… {…}
The burning gods cast a pretty light, wreathed in their robes of shifting flame, red and orange and yellow. Septon Barre had once told Davos how they’d been carved from the masts of the ships that had carried the first Targaryens from Valyria. Over the centuries, they had been painted and repainted, gilded, silvered, jeweled. “Their beauty will make them more pleasing to R’hllor,” Melisandre said when she told Stannis to pull them down and drag them out the castle gates. (ACOK, Davos)
The burning gods cast a pretty light, wreathed in their robes of shifting flame, red and orange and yellow. Septon Barre had once told Davos how they’d been carved from the masts of the ships that had carried the first Targaryens from Valyria. Over the centuries, they had been painted and repainted, gilded, silvered, jeweled. “Their beauty will make them more pleasing to R’hllor,” Melisandre said when she told Stannis to pull them down and drag them out the castle gates. (ACOK, Davos)
“I’ll do as you say,” Jon said reluctantly, “but … you will tell them, won’t you? The Old Bear, at least? You’ll tell him that I never broke my oath.”
Qhorin Halfhand gazed at him across the fire, his eyes lost in pools of shadow. “When I see him next. I swear it.” He gestured at the fire. “More wood. I want it bright and hot.”
Jon went to cut more branches, snapping each one in two before tossing it into the flames. The tree had been dead a long time, but it seemed to live again in the fire, as fiery dancers woke within each stick of wood to whirl and spin in their glowing gowns of yellow, red, and orange.
“Enough,” Qhorin said abruptly. “Now we ride.”
“Ride?” It was dark beyond the fire, and the night was cold. (ACOK, Jon)
Qhorin Halfhand gazed at him across the fire, his eyes lost in pools of shadow. “When I see him next. I swear it.” He gestured at the fire. “More wood. I want it bright and hot.”
Jon went to cut more branches, snapping each one in two before tossing it into the flames. The tree had been dead a long time, but it seemed to live again in the fire, as fiery dancers woke within each stick of wood to whirl and spin in their glowing gowns of yellow, red, and orange.
“Enough,” Qhorin said abruptly. “Now we ride.”
“Ride?” It was dark beyond the fire, and the night was cold. (ACOK, Jon)
Burning trees personified as humans are the same as a stag man with burning antlers. Both are depictions of these fiery greenseers I am talking about.
Wolfmaid, if you're still reading, there are also an equal number of passages about trees personified in cold ways - having icy teeth, being armored in ice, standing in rows like an army, trees frozen and buried in snow that are personified as human... This is relevant to your "greenseer that controls the others" idea. He's not a greenseer anymore - he's been armored in ice and frozen. But he WAS a greenseer at one time, just as Azor Ahai / The Bloodstone Emperor was. Fire and Ice magic both go back to greenseer magic - that's my hypothesis. The green man horned god mythos is sued to create the green men and garth the Green, and the baphomt / goat head / satan ideas for the fiery greenseers.
I didn't get into the black goat of Qohor, but of course they do blood sacrifice there to the Black Goat and also to reforge V steel, or when they try to make new V steel. Vargo Hoat wears a black steel goat head helm, just to give us a way to connect the black goat with horned gods in ASOIAF.
There's a second half to all of this, which ties back to the Old Ones, but I am out of time for now.