Ok, going slowly, read part one. The only thing I have to add, is that Hoster Tully's wife is a Whent. So his connection at Harrinhal is both ambition and familial: another reason for his daughters to be sought out by the Starks, Lannisters, and Arryn.
Editing for Part 2: Hmmm. Brandon as a player, not a "playa", very interesting take. Layers and layers of meaning: where have we seen that before?? Lyanna as the one who "tells" is really creative! I know we have spent a lot of time debating how Sansa and Arya give us insight into Lyanna. Good use of speculation Looking forward to reading part 3 tonight. Thanks for bringing this up, Wraith ! And welcome, kinglittlefinger , nice work! You should enjoy playing in this sandbox!
I always thought it was odd that the Tully's weren't at the event.
I am not sure that's true. They aren't mentioned, but can we be sure they weren't there at all? I mean Hoster had betrothed Cat to Brandon, so that should say they'd be there. Then again, I suppose they might have boycotted with Tywin, as they were trying to betroth Jaime to Lysa, a plan which Jaime's induction into the KG destroyed.
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Crying Cockles and Mussels, AliveAlive0 - The song Molly Malone
I am not sure that's true. They aren't mentioned, but can we be sure they weren't there at all? I mean Hoster had betrothed Cat to Brandon, so that should say they'd be there. Then again, I suppose they might have boycotted with Tywin, as they were trying to betroth Jaime to Lysa, a plan which Jaime's induction into the KG destroyed.
I think it's kind of odd that they don't get any mention if the Tully's were at Harrenhal. One would think that Cat, who was already betrothed to Brandon, would have met Brandon's siblings, but we know that the first time that Cat seen Ned was when Ned agreed to marry her, perhaps even on their wedding day. If Cat was at Harrenhal, I would think she would have at least seen Ned Stark.
It's also quite odd that the great family in the Riverlands, the Tully's, did not attend the great tourney and gathering that was happening right in the middle of the the Riverlands. I am not sure what GRRM is thinking about all of this.
And I think by Harrenhal, Jaime and Lysa's marriage would already have fallen though, so perhaps the Tully's did boycott the tourney, just like Tywindid, in protest of loosing Jaime in marriage to Lysa. This does make sense! Except the Tully's still have one major marriage in play with the Stark's, so it seems odd not to try to make some connection to the Stark's when they traveled south. Sometimes I think Cat's thoughts on being betrothed to Brandon by the age of 12 are bogus.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Thx for reminding me that we do have evidence of a sort from Cat that at least she was not there.
To your second point above, I don't think that means that for sure that Hoster, Brynden, or Edmure were not there, but it's probably a good bet that Lysa and Cat were not. However, the more I think about it, boycotting to make a statement or to avoid Aerys feels more and more likely. The omission by GRRM is too glaring, although it may just be immaterial to Meera's story. I also don't see why that should put Cat/Brandon's betrothal in question though. Certainly the thing that doesn't fit there is Baelish's hopeless crush on Cat, but crushes have a way of traversing logic, so it doesn't bother me.
I am the Green Bard I am Irish & French & American I blog about ASOIAF GRRM w/music and art at alivealive0.home.blog
Crying Cockles and Mussels, AliveAlive0 - The song Molly Malone
Thx for reminding me that we do have evidence of a sort from Cat that at least she was not there.
To your second point above, I don't think that means that for sure that Hoster, Brynden, or Edmure were not there, but it's probably a good bet that Lysa and Cat were not. However, the more I think about it, boycotting to make a statement or to avoid Aerys feels more and more likely. The omission by GRRM is too glaring, although it may just be immaterial to Meera's story. I also don't see why that should put Cat/Brandon's betrothal in question though. Certainly the thing that doesn't fit there is Baelish's hopeless crush on Cat, but crushes have a way of traversing logic, so it doesn't bother me.
Well, I find it odd that Littlefinger would not know of Cat's betrothal from the time it happened. He was a member of that household and betrothal's are not secrets in this society. But Cat telling Ned she was twelve when she and Brandon were betrothed doesn't jive with Littlefinger finding out that Cat was betrothed at nearly the same time he challenged Brandon to the duel, which was actually after Harrenhal, approximately a year before Cat wed Ned. Something is sticky in this story.
I sometimes wonder if Cat's early betrothal to Brandon was similar to Tywin telling Cersei that she was going to marry Rhaegar. We know that Cersei believed it to be the truth, but there was never such a betrothal. But she believed it from the time she was young. So, could Hoster Tully have been promising a betrothal to the great House of Stark before it actually happened? I mean, Barbrey Dustin's story of finding out Brandon was betrothed doesn't really jive with Cat's story of being betrothed at 12 years old either. Barbrey sounds like she and Brandon were lovers up until Brandon's betrothal was announced, which doesn't sound like it's long before the wedding was supposed to happen, and then her father directly set his sights on Eddard Stark as a possible marriage option for his daughter.
So, I doubt when Cat and Brandon did actually become betrothed. Although Ned doesn't deny Cat's story about being betrothed at the age of 12, so some of these oddities in the timeline might be more of timeline not being GRRM's strong point.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
I sometimes wonder if Cat's early betrothal to Brandon was similar to Tywin telling Cersei that she was going to marry Rhaegar. We know that Cersei believed it to be the truth, but there was never such a betrothal. But she believed it from the time she was young. So, could Hoster Tully have been promising a betrothal to the great House of Stark before it actually happened? I mean, Barbrey Dustin's story of finding out Brandon was betrothed doesn't really jive with Cat's story of being betrothed at 12 years old either. Barbrey sounds like she and Brandon were lovers up until Brandon's betrothal was announced, which doesn't sound like it's long before the wedding was supposed to happen, and then her father directly set his sights on Eddard Stark as a possible marriage option for his daughter.
So these are all good observations. I will add one more data point, that Harwyn certainly seems to believe that by Harrenhal, Brandon and Cat were betrothed.
I am the Green Bard I am Irish & French & American I blog about ASOIAF GRRM w/music and art at alivealive0.home.blog
Crying Cockles and Mussels, AliveAlive0 - The song Molly Malone
So these are all good observations. I will add one more data point, that Harwyn certainly seems to believe that by Harrenhal, Brandon and Cat were betrothed.
That is a good point. Harwin does credit Ned and Ashara's "relationship" to have started at Harrenhal, when it was Brandon who was engaged to Catelyn. But he also says he heard the tale when he was a boy at Winterfell, no older than Arya is now, so he doesn't really have first hand knowledge, and he was a child. But for the most part, it seems a good marker that Brandon and Cat would have been engaged by the Harrenhal Tourney. So, why would Cat have not traveled to Harrenhal to see her betrothed? Maybe it all has to do with Hoster being peeved because he lost Jaime to the kingsguard instead of gained him in marriage to Lysa. Here's a bit of a tinfoil question-perhaps something else was going on with Cat and Lysa and Hoster wanted to keep them away from a large public gathering?
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Here's a bit of a tinfoil question-perhaps something else was going on with Cat and Lysa and Hoster wanted to keep them away from a large public gathering?
Hadn't everr considered this. I'll have to think on it. Probably not, but who knows.
I am the Green Bard I am Irish & French & American I blog about ASOIAF GRRM w/music and art at alivealive0.home.blog
Crying Cockles and Mussels, AliveAlive0 - The song Molly Malone
Hadn't everr considered this. I'll have to think on it. Probably not, but who knows.
When does Littlefinger and Brandon's duel fall into the story. We seem to think it must have been after Harrenhal, but what if it was before? And Hoster knew of Lysa's pregnancy and had to keep both girls home to hide the truth of one of their "downfall".
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
I think that could be possible IF Littlefinger and Brandon's duel was before Harrenhal, but there is no indication of that. But a pregnancy would be something to hide and a possible reason to not go to a tourney with your marriage aged daughters, a huge and important tourney that's in your back yard. I think it's odd that the Tully's did not seem to attend, but can't work out the Brandon/Littlefinger incident before the tourney. Cat talks about the duel as if it happened not long before her marriage to Brandon was supposed to happen, although I find Catelyn to be quite an unreliable narrator when it comes to many things.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
I thought the timelines was Harrenhal tournament, then the duel, then Lysa gets pregnant. I might need to look it over again.
In my head cannon, the Harrenhal tourney comes first, then the duel. But what is interesting is that Ned says that Brandon talked to him of Littlefinger, and that could hint to us that the duel actually happened before Harrenhal, and that Brandon and Ned could have talked about the duel at the Harrenhal tourney. I don't think the text clarifies it either way.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
I thought the timelines was Harrenhal tournament, then the duel, then Lysa gets pregnant. I might need to look it over again.
In my head cannon, the Harrenhal tourney comes first, then the duel. But what is interesting is that Ned says that Brandon talked to him of Littlefinger, and that could hint to us that the duel actually happened before Harrenhal, and that Brandon and Ned could have talked about the duel at the Harrenhal tourney. I don't think the text clarifies it either way.
Petyr's first time with Lysa (if not both times) had to be before the duel, because he was never able-bodied after the duel and was supposedly shunted off two weeks later in a carriage to continue healing. We learn that from Cat. What Lysa tells us is this.
"Did you come with Lord Bracken and Lord Blackwood, the time they visited to lay their feud before my father? Lord Bracken's singer played for us, and Catelyn danced six dances with Petyr that night, six, I counted. When the lords began to argue my father took them up to his audience chamber, so there was no one to stop us drinking. Edmure got drunk, young as he was . . . and Petyr tried to kiss your mother, only she pushed him away. She laughed at him. He looked so wounded I thought my heart would burst, and afterward he drank until he passed out at the table. Uncle Brynden carried him up to bed before my father could find him like that.
That was the night I stole up to his bed to give him comfort. I bled, but it was the sweetest hurt.
If he was at a party getting drunk, he logically wouldn't be also bedridden from the duel. Notably, this is the time he claimed to have bedded Cat, he was so dunk, he may even believe it to be true. Lysa goes on to reveal:
Everyone thought it was because of that stupid duel with Brandon Stark, but that wasn't so. Father said I ought to thank the gods that so great a lord as Jon Arryn was willing to take me soiled, but I knew it was only for the swords. I had to marry Jon, or my father would have turned me out as he did his brother, but it was Petyr I was meant for. I am telling you all this so you will understand how much we love each other, how long we have suffered and dreamed of one another. We made a baby together, a precious little baby." Lysa put her hands flat against her belly, as if the child was still there. "When they stole him from me, I made a promise to myself that I would never let it happen again.
So I glean from this that the Blackwood/Bracken feud and their first tryst happened well before Brandon and Littefinger's duel with Brandon. It would take a while for Lysa to show signs of pregnancy. If she thinks that was the reason he was sent away, her signs might have coincided with the duel, but not the conception.
If she got pregnant from the first time, I suppose there might have been a second time she snuck into his bed. I thought there was a passage about this, but I can't find it. Was it when he was injured? If she got pregnant from this second time, it would also have to be earlier than the duel for the same logic about a delay from conception to showing signs.
Last Edit: Apr 18, 2020 20:53:22 GMT by alivealive0: tag canitryto
I am the Green Bard I am Irish & French & American I blog about ASOIAF GRRM w/music and art at alivealive0.home.blog
Crying Cockles and Mussels, AliveAlive0 - The song Molly Malone
Petyr's first time with Lysa (if not both times) had to be before the duel, because he was never able-bodied after the duel and was supposedly shunted off two weeks later in a carriage to continue healing. We learn that from Cat. What Lysa tells us is this.
If he was at a party getting drunk, he logically wouldn't be also bedridden from the duel. Notably, this is the time he claimed to have bedded Cat, he was so dunk, he may even believe it to be true.
I agree with all of this, but it doesn't really help clarify if the duel could have happened before or after Harrenhal. Because why else does Brandon Stark even think to talk to Ned about Petyr Baelish. And the last time that we can for sure put Ned and Brandon together is at Harrenhal. Now, that doesn't mean they didn't spend time together afterwards, but right now we have no proof of that. Although we might find out some day that Brandon and Ned did spend time together after Harrenhal and after the duel but before Lyanna's kidnapping. It still makes the most sense to me that the duel happened after Harrenhal and before Lyanna's kidnapping, but I'm just a bit confused by Ned's comments about Brandon talking about Littlefinger, "often, and with some heat". Of course, Brandon might not have liked Littlefinger well before the duel.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.