This is very possible and it makes me wonder if Petyr still loved her after this or sought vengeance against her and her whole family from that moment? Petyr Baelish lost quite a bit during that duel with Brandon, but this was also about the time that it would be found out that he got Lysa pregnant. Still, it almost makes sense for Hoster to marry Lysa to Petyr, but instead he opts for a forced abortion which then turned Lysa against him and cleaved her stronger to Littlefinger, and he also turned Littlefinger into an enemy, although he probably didn't realize what Littlefinger would become, or worry that he should fear him.
Hard to say when Petyr realized that she didn't love him. Also the Tully word's are: Family, Duty, Honor she had to do her duty to her family to marry Brandon even if she loved him. I'd say it was more likely after Brandon had died and he sent a letter. The letter that Cat burned since she knew she would marry Ned. A wartime marriage for an alliance against the Mad King, even more important than the one Brandon.
Hoster as I always say is an ambitious man. He took advantage of Ned and Jon Arryn to force them to marry both his daughters as the condition to join the rebellion. All meanwhile Robert is down wounded in the Riverlands. This is why LysaxPetyr was never an option. The fact that Lysa was fertile was the selling point to Jon Arryn who still lacked a direct heir at that time. (I think he had a nephew or something that died during the war.)
So, these things seem to hint that Brandon spent time both at Riverrun and the Eyrie before his wedding to Cat was to take place. To get to know Littlefinger AND to tell Ned about it. I guess it could have been just one meeting at Riverrun, but since it seems Lyanna's kidnapping must have happened close to the time of the duel, that doesn't make sense. And it's possible that we are thinking about all of this in much more detail than GRRM ever has. I still think timeline is his weakest skill as a writer.
Nothing I have read points to Brandon going to the Vale. However I suppose he could have if he was working with his father on Southron Ambitions. I am sure he spent some time at Riverrun after he was promised to Cat.
I do think it makes sense, except why was Hoster not at Harrenhal then? It doesn't seem like he nor his children were there. I guess I can see leaving his children behind, but why not go himself? Unless the whole mess with Lysa was revealed and he knew he had to stay home to deal with it. And this could mean that Brandon talked to Ned about Baelish at Harrenhal, except then that would also mean that Lyanna's kidnapping must have quickly followed. That's a lot of events in a short time. Lysa and Littlefinger as lovers, the wedding announcement and duel with the Blackwood/Bracken meeting, Harrenhal, the planned wedding, the kidnapping, and all of that in a few months? I guess it's possible, but it's tight. At least this way, Brandon would not have needed to go to the Vale, but then why was he traveling with several people from the Vale at the time he found out about Lyanna and rode off to Kings Landing in a fury? It's a tangle, for sure.
One reason is he simply isn't mentioned, which would be weird. Also his wife was Minisa Whent of Harrenhal making it doubly weird.
Him staying at home to deal with Lysa's issues make sense. Or he knows what it going on and playing a waiting game to see which side is stronger. Or the King coming changed his mind.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
Hoster as I always say is an ambitious man. He took advantage of Ned and Jon Arryn to force them to marry both his daughters as the condition to join the rebellion. All meanwhile Robert is down wounded in the Riverlands. This is why LysaxPetyr was never an option. The fact that Lysa was fertile was the selling point to Jon Arryn who still lacked a direct heir at that time. (I think he had a nephew or something that died during the war.)
I agree that Hoster was ambitious and also not stupid, so he would not want to give his daughter in marriage to a poor boy who's claim is more sheep shit than castle. But that still would have happened before Hoster knew he could marry Lysa to Jon Arryn. He might have wanted to end the pregnancy to give him a chance to find her a better husband, and also further his families powers, but I don't think he had Jon Arryn in mind at that point. It actually sounds like he had been looking to a Lannister connection not long before this.
And certainly, Hoster did use Ned and Jon Arryn's needs to his advantage. But the information from Cat that she didn't open Littlefinger's letter because she knew that Ned would marry her... well it's rather odd. Because, why would it make a difference? If Ned would not have married her, would she have then "needed" to marry Littlefinger or read his letter? Whether Ned can marry her or not, there is no reason to think she could have married Petyr. Unless she is currently lying to herself and did have some sort of idea to marry or at least hold onto Baelish's attention.
And I think Cat embodies the Tully words far more than Lysa ever did. Lysa was forced into marriage, she didn't do it to make her father happy or further Tully power. She pretty much fled to the Vale and never looked back at her father or Riverrun again, and she rightly blames him for murdering her child, a child that she clearly wanted.
Nothing I have read points to Brandon going to the Vale. However I suppose he could have if he was working with his father on Southron Ambitions. I am sure he spent some time at Riverrun after he was promised to Cat.
No, it's not said anywhere, but at some point, Brandon talked to Ned about Petyr Baelish. This only could have happened at Harrenhal, the Vale or Riverrun. Cat had never laid eyes on Ned before their marriage, so he could never have been at Riverrun when Brandon was. Harrenhal is certainly possible, but then that means that the duel had to have happened before Harrenhal, and I am still not convinced about that. Or Brandon was in the Vale with Eddard at some point. The only reason I question if Brandon was ever in the Vale was because at the time of his arrest, he was with two people from the Vale, Albert Arryn and Kyle Royce. The other two were his northern squire and a Mallister from the Riverlands. Why is Brandon with more people from the Vale than the north or Riverlands, considering his own family and who he was to marry. The Vale connection sticks out as somewhat odd, considering Brandon's history. I am just trying to fill in the dots with a very little bit of information. If Brandon had been to the Vale after his duel with Littlefinger, then was traveling back for his marriage, this would make sense to me.
Him staying at home to deal with Lysa's issues make sense. Or he knows what it going on and playing a waiting game to see which side is stronger. Or the King coming changed his mind.
Even if he had to deal with Lysa's situation, he could have easily locked her up for a month and traveled to Harrenhal, a huge gathering of Lords. He's not that far away. Him missing it is plain odd, no matter the turmoil of his own house. One reason that I can see he might have skipped it was if he was trying to honor Tywin's decision to boycott the gathering, and if that is the case, then he still would have had some hopes of alliance with the Lannister's, just not through Jaime and Lysa. Perhaps Lysa and Tyrion, although Tyrion would have been young. Or perhaps with Cersei and Edmure, although Edmure might have been quite young. For some reason that I think will turn out to be important, he chose to boycott Harrenhal.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
What if the Blackwood/Bracken meeting was just before Harrenhal? It would make sense if Harrenhal was possible "Great Council."
Hoster is an underappreciated schemer. Baelish likely had a good education from him.
This is highly likely. They probably wanted to meet him at Harrenhal, but because the Tully apparently boycotted the place, they just stopped on the way.
While it certain fits the later MO I have always liked the theory that Tywin had a paw in it. Its hard to fit on the timeline of these events. Either way Baelish would have had to been very lucky for all this information to fall in him lap while injured.
I guess Tywin could have affected it as well, but I actually don't think the odds are so bad as you make it out for Baelish to stumble in to the information. The Inn at the crossroads seems to be a nexus, and he would have been there for a while, trying to arrange passage or potentially trying to fall in with a company planning on traversing the high road. All he would need to do is keep an ear to the ground and he could cause trouble, which is his MO, as you say.
Him staying at home to deal with Lysa's issues make sense. Or he knows what it going on and playing a waiting game to see which side is stronger. Or the King coming changed his mind.
I think I said somewhere in this thread that I think Hoster boycotted because Jaime being names to the kingsguard ruined his marriage plane for Lysa / Jaime. Certainly Lysa's predicament is related to that one way or the other. But I get the feeling that the weren't going in any case
stdaga, Wraith, I do find it curious that Rickard and Hoster were not there . Tywin was trying to join STAB too . I still feel Rhaegar was being played by Arryn and Tywin . I like the idea that Lyanna spilled the beans like Sansa did to Cersei . Even after Hoster was reluctant to support the rebels . Was he afraid of Aerys or Tywin ?
Wraith, stdaga, alivealive0, The only thing that makes sense is Rhaegar realized he was out of options when he found out about STAB alliance planning on betraying him and voting for Robert instead . I love the 3 faction theory and consider it canon . please come back King Littlefinger
I have been spending a lot of time recently trying to figure out why Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and I think I may have an idea. I got this theory from Lady Knits A Lot who is on Thunks of Ice and Fire. We are told that Brandon is away from River run for up to 3 months before he ran off and got himself killed. Also around this time Rhaegar takes off from Dragonstone with 6 close friends. I believe that both groups were visiting noble houses and trying to rally support for an upcoming Great Council in order to oust the Mad King. We can assume this by Brandon's companions, two from the Vale, his squire and a Riverland bannerman. We don't know who went with Rhaegar but I would say Dayne, Connington, Mooton, Lonmouth, a Darry and Whent. We know Brandon went to the Vale because Ned tells Baelish that his brother spoke of him often. I believe that both groups were in the same area and ran into each other, whether by agreement or chance i can't say with certainty. Something must have gone wrong in the parley, most likely as/u/Kinglittlefinger believes, Rhaegar discovered that the SA BLOC was trying to get rid of him as well as his father. Rhaegar figured that the realm would back his play so he was probably devastated by the revelation. Another thing that bothers me is why Brandon went directly to KL when everyone knows that Rhaegar lives on Dragonstone. Too me it means that they had recent contact with each other. Maybe they had agreed to go to KL together to call the Great Council and that is when Lyanna pulled a Sansa and spilled the beans because she did not want to be Queen . Maybe this is what Ned meant when he said Brandon was born to be Hand and a father to queens. He was to be Robert's Hand and his daughter with Cat would marry Lyanna's son. Basically i feel Rhaegar is much misunderstood And i try to make sense of the entire rebellion because we don't have the whole story. What do you think ? Am I not focusing enough on prophecy or is politics a more realistic cause for war?
I guess Tywin could have affected it as well, but I actually don't think the odds are so bad as you make it out for Baelish to stumble in to the information. The Inn at the crossroads seems to be a nexus, and he would have been there for a while, trying to arrange passage or potentially trying to fall in with a company planning on traversing the high road. All he would need to do is keep an ear to the ground and he could cause trouble, which is his MO, as you say.
I always felt it likely that Hoster Tully would have arranged passage for Baelish back to his home in the Vale. Even if Baelish was a little shit, Hoster has some responsibility to a young man who was his ward and placed in the safe keeping of House Tully, honor and all that nonsense. Although it could be that Baelish did sit and wait at the Inn at the Crossroads for an escort or ship (that at had previously been arranged) to arrive and take him home.
I think they're more than curious. I think they're essential if they are to fight the cold a la the last hero!
Certainly it's important, but what I find curious about the "heat" hints is where does that come from in the Stark lineage, or how far back does it go. Perhaps the Stark's are linked to dragons many thousands of years before, long before Valyria rose and long before the Targaryen's brought dragons back to Westeros. Or does the ancient heat of the Stark's have nothing to do with dragons at all?
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
I do find it curious that Rickard and Hoster were not there . Tywin was trying to join STAB too . I still feel Rhaegar was being played by Arryn and Tywin . I like the idea that Lyanna spilled the beans like Sansa did to Cersei . Even after Hoster was reluctant to support the rebels . Was he afraid of Aerys or Tywin ?
I am not sure why Rickard chose not to go, and yet he sent all 4 of his children. Rickard must have been the Stark in Winterfell, but if it was a great political gathering, it makes sense that he would have wanted to be at Harrenhal himself. Unless he was expecting Brandon, his eldest son and heir, to act in his place as Lord of Winterfell. If Rickard wants to boycott the tourney, it makes no sense that he sent all his children there as Stark representatives!
It's possible that Lyanna did let some thing slip. I am not convinced of this, but I keep an open thought to it. I also think it could have been Ned that confessed something by accident that led to the destruction of his family, not Lyanna. Ned and Sansa have some similar connections, so I could see this being one of them.
The only thing that makes sense is Rhaegar realized he was out of options when he found out about STAB alliance planning on betraying him and voting for Robert instead . I love the 3 faction theory and consider it canon . please come back King Littlefinger
Rhaegar's motivations are really an unknown, and even if we think we peace stuff together, it's still linked to speculation. He might have been fighting against some alliance to unseat his family, but he also might have been part of the alliance, just hoping it would only remove his father and not himself.
I have been spending a lot of time recently trying to figure out why Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and I think I may have an idea. I got this theory from Lady Knits A Lot who is on Thunks of Ice and Fire. We are told that Brandon is away from River run for up to 3 months before he ran off and got himself killed. Also around this time Rhaegar takes off from Dragonstone with 6 close friends. I believe that both groups were visiting noble houses and trying to rally support for an upcoming Great Council in order to oust the Mad King. We can assume this by Brandon's companions, two from the Vale, his squire and a Riverland bannerman. We don't know who went with Rhaegar but I would say Dayne, Connington, Mooton, Lonmouth, a Darry and Whent. We know Brandon went to the Vale because Ned tells Baelish that his brother spoke of him often. I believe that both groups were in the same area and ran into each other, whether by agreement or chance i can't say with certainty. Something must have gone wrong in the parley, most likely as/u/Kinglittlefinger believes, Rhaegar discovered that the SA BLOC was trying to get rid of him as well as his father. Rhaegar figured that the realm would back his play so he was probably devastated by the revelation. Another thing that bothers me is why Brandon went directly to KL when everyone knows that Rhaegar lives on Dragonstone. Too me it means that they had recent contact with each other. Maybe they had agreed to go to KL together to call the Great Council and that is when Lyanna pulled a Sansa and spilled the beans because she did not want to be Queen . Maybe this is what Ned meant when he said Brandon was born to be Hand and a father to queens. He was to be Robert's Hand and his daughter with Cat would marry Lyanna's son. Basically i feel Rhaegar is much misunderstood And i try to make sense of the entire rebellion because we don't have the whole story. What do you think ? Am I not focusing enough on prophecy or is politics a more realistic cause for war?
I don't know about the details of all of this, and honestly, I am not bothered by Rhaegar being misunderstood or seen in a poor light. He might have been a prince like Joffrey is a prince, shining and pretty, just cruel to the core. I doubt he was deeply cruel, but he doesn't have to be a hero either. As to why he might have kidnapped Lyanna, it could be multiple reasons such as lust, love or power. I could see the potential for Rhaegar to take her to use her as a weapon against the actions of her family. Now, this would make sense if he just takes her and holds her, but if he really did rape her while he had her, then he is an asshole. I am not going to be surprised to find out that Prince Silverstring wasn't a very nice man. Ned might not think many poor thoughts about him, but Ned also doesn't think many poor thoughts about Joffrey, and we know what kind of person Joffrey is.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
stdaga, I think Ned is better judge of character than that . I am convinced Tywin framed Rhaegar for the kidnapping of Lyanna . great theory on this site about that from Sly Wren i think .
stdaga, maybe Rickard and Hoster were afraid Varys found out about their plot to undermine the Dragonless Targs ? But then again Arryn was there so who knows ?
stdaga, maybe Rickard and Hoster were afraid Varys found out about their plot to undermine the Dragonless Targs ? But then again Arryn was there so who knows ? Your Ned was a hostage is looking better than ever if the 3 faction theory is correct BTW .
I think Ned is better judge of character than that . I am convinced Tywin framed Rhaegar for the kidnapping of Lyanna . great theory on this site about that from Sly Wren i think .
Good judge of character is debatable. I like Ned but he isn't perfect, or perhaps even a good judge of character. He didn't really trust Littlfinger but found himself working with him, and that really backfired on him. Ned doesn't like or trust Varys at all, but still works for him. Ned knew that Pycelle was betraying him to Cersei, but he still had interactions with the man. There is nothing in the text that states that Ned thought Rhaegar was a good guy or a trustworthy man. Not one thing.
maybe Rickard and Hoster were afraid Varys found out about their plot to undermine the Dragonless Targs ? But then again Arryn was there so who knows ?
maybe Rickard and Hoster were afraid Varys found out about their plot to undermine the Dragonless Targs ? But then again Arryn was there so who knows ? Your Ned was a hostage is looking better than ever if the 3 faction theory is correct BTW .
It is possible that Hoster and Rickard stayed away to try to throw suspicion away from themselves, but this decision on Rickard's part would have to have been weeks or months in advance, since it takes some time to travel from Winterfell to Harrenhal. It must not have been a spontaneous choice. And Tywin plays into this some how, as well. I think Tywin probably was the leader of the pack, and his failure to come forward and fight on the rebels side of the war is why Ned thinks so poorly of him.
As to why Jon Arryn went to Harrenhal and the rest didn't, I suppose it's possible that Jon Arryn wasn't a suspected conspirator and therefore he was the best option to still go to the Tourney to see what was going on and also to perhaps influence what was happening. If my theory on Ned as a hostage is correct, then Aerys would have trusted Jon Arryn enough to let him hold a political prisoner under Aerys command.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
I agree that Hoster was ambitious and also not stupid, so he would not want to give his daughter in marriage to a poor boy who's claim is more sheep shit than castle. But that still would have happened before Hoster knew he could marry Lysa to Jon Arryn. He might have wanted to end the pregnancy to give him a chance to find her a better husband, and also further his families powers, but I don't think he had Jon Arryn in mind at that point. It actually sounds like he had been looking to a Lannister connection not long before this.
I admit I had completely forgot that Lysa was supposed to be married to Jaime. This makes sense on him not going to Harrenhal now since he would feel snubbed that the Mad King took away his marriage prospect.
And certainly, Hoster did use Ned and Jon Arryn's needs to his advantage. But the information from Cat that she didn't open Littlefinger's letter because she knew that Ned would marry her... well it's rather odd. Because, why would it make a difference? If Ned would not have married her, would she have then "needed" to marry Littlefinger or read his letter? Whether Ned can marry her or not, there is no reason to think she could have married Petyr. Unless she is currently lying to herself and did have some sort of idea to marry or at least hold onto Baelish's attention.
I don't think Cat ever really look Baelish's affections seriously. Still why burn the letter though?
I guess Tywin could have affected it as well, but I actually don't think the odds are so bad as you make it out for Baelish to stumble in to the information. The Inn at the crossroads seems to be a nexus, and he would have been there for a while, trying to arrange passage or potentially trying to fall in with a company planning on traversing the high road. All he would need to do is keep an ear to the ground and he could cause trouble, which is his MO, as you say.
Ah the Inn at the Crossroads or as I like to think of it the Inn of Plot Contrivance. I fully agree that Baelish could be the culprit of the information as could plenty of other interested parties.
I think I said somewhere in this thread that I think Hoster boycotted because Jaime being names to the kingsguard ruined his marriage plane for Lysa / Jaime. Certainly Lysa's predicament is related to that one way or the other. But I get the feeling that the weren't going in any case
As I stated above I had forgotten this. (Take a few months away from theorizing and you start to forget things...) It makes sense.
stdaga, Wraith, I do find it curious that Rickard and Hoster were not there . Tywin was trying to join STAB too . I still feel Rhaegar was being played by Arryn and Tywin . I like the idea that Lyanna spilled the beans like Sansa did to Cersei . Even after Hoster was reluctant to support the rebels . Was he afraid of Aerys or Tywin ?
Brandon works as a agent for his father IMO. Also there must always be a Stark in Winterfell. Also the Tournament would be good for the kids to people the important people of the Kingdoms.
Arryn playing Rhaegar yes. Tywin was busy weighing his options at this point.
I have been spending a lot of time recently trying to figure out why Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and I think I may have an idea. I got this theory from Lady Knits A Lot who is on Thunks of Ice and Fire. We are told that Brandon is away from River run for up to 3 months before he ran off and got himself killed. Also around this time Rhaegar takes off from Dragonstone with 6 close friends. I believe that both groups were visiting noble houses and trying to rally support for an upcoming Great Council in order to oust the Mad King. We can assume this by Brandon's companions, two from the Vale, his squire and a Riverland bannerman. We don't know who went with Rhaegar but I would say Dayne, Connington, Mooton, Lonmouth, a Darry and Whent. We know Brandon went to the Vale because Ned tells Baelish that his brother spoke of him often. I believe that both groups were in the same area and ran into each other, whether by agreement or chance i can't say with certainty. Something must have gone wrong in the parley, most likely as/u/Kinglittlefinger believes, Rhaegar discovered that the SA BLOC was trying to get rid of him as well as his father. Rhaegar figured that the realm would back his play so he was probably devastated by the revelation. Another thing that bothers me is why Brandon went directly to KL when everyone knows that Rhaegar lives on Dragonstone. Too me it means that they had recent contact with each other. Maybe they had agreed to go to KL together to call the Great Council and that is when Lyanna pulled a Sansa and spilled the beans because she did not want to be Queen . Maybe this is what Ned meant when he said Brandon was born to be Hand and a father to queens. He was to be Robert's Hand and his daughter with Cat would marry Lyanna's son. Basically i feel Rhaegar is much misunderstood And i try to make sense of the entire rebellion because we don't have the whole story. What do you think ? Am I not focusing enough on prophecy or is politics a more realistic cause for war?
Without reading the whole thing its hard to say. I think politics is always a more realistic cause than prophecy.
I am not sure why Rickard chose not to go, and yet he sent all 4 of his children. Rickard must have been the Stark in Winterfell, but if it was a great political gathering, it makes sense that he would have wanted to be at Harrenhal himself. Unless he was expecting Brandon, his eldest son and heir, to act in his place as Lord of Winterfell. If Rickard wants to boycott the tourney, it makes no sense that he sent all his children there as Stark representatives!
Maybe a suggestion by his maester. Send Brandon as his representative to the SA and the rest of the kids to meet the important people of the kingdoms.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
I don't think Cat ever really look Baelish's affections seriously. Still why burn the letter though?
Her habit of burning letters is interesting all on it's own. It's quite secretive in a person so young, and it's something she retained into adulthood. And her letter from Lysa which she burns at Winterfell is supposedly in some secret language, so if only she and Lysa can read it, why does it need to be destroyed? As to why she would have burned Baelish's letter, I suppose it could have to do with Hoster perhaps having forbid any communication between his daughters and Baelish. But why did she not read it before burning it? Wasn't she curious? Didn't she expect that Baelish could be plotting something that knowledge off might be an important weapon for herself? Sometimes, her decisions annoy me beyond reason!!!
Ah the Inn at the Crossroads or as I like to think of it the Inn of Plot Contrivance. I fully agree that Baelish could be the culprit of the information as could plenty of other interested parties.
Maybe a suggestion by his maester. Send Brandon as his representative to the SA and the rest of the kids to meet the important people of the kingdoms.
Sometimes, I think this aspect of Rickard staying at Wintefell and his four children going to Harrenhal doesn't have much more meaning than plot magic from GRRM. He wanted his Stark sibling wolf story for Meera and Jojen to tell at some point in the story, and therefore, the kids had to be there- and therefore Rickard could not be there, because someone had to be at Winterfell. Although, if the Stark kids (one, more than one, or all of them) behaved badly at Harrenhal and eventually lead to an even worse mess for House Stark, it could just be used to show that children without guidance will muck stuff up. We get the information about there always needing to be a Stark in Winterfell early in our story, so this must have been on GRRM's mind.
The reason certain people avoided the tourney should not have anything to do with Aerys attending or not, since it sounds like that was a last minute choice. So, if plotting was going on against Aerys by Rhaegar and his supporters, then they perhaps were avoiding Rheagar's machinations? Was Jaime going to be sworn into the kingsguard whether Aerys was there or not? I am now wondering if that was also a spontaneous decision?
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.