I agree with all of this, but it doesn't really help clarify if the duel could have happened before or after Harrenhal. Because why else does Brandon Stark even think to talk to Ned about Petyr Baelish.
Yes, I realize now that I totally forgot to address my thought on that topic. I don't think they ever did really talk about it. I think GRRM made a mistake. I have always gotten the impression that it happened not long before the wedding was supposed to happen and not long before Lyanna was "abducted." I've never seen any reason to doubt this, save this line by Ned. I think GRRM just hadn't really thought this timeline through very well when he wrote it. It was, after all, very early in AGoT. You'd think it would be caught at editing, but you might need a lot of details from the later books to really catch this type of thing as an editor. It's not like GRRM provides any decent timeline illustrations.
I will say that it is possible that Brandon wrote Ned from Riverrun and / or King's Landing.
Still I standby the sequence Pregnancy, Harrenhal, Duel. Either way, yes I think it is possible that they stayed away because of Lysa.
That said, the duel would have to be very close to Harrenhal, or else, wouldn't Baelish already be sent away? It makes a lot of sense to me that Lysa maybe spoke up while LF was infirmed, and that it just further enflamed an already raw situation.
Last Edit: Apr 20, 2020 5:19:22 GMT by alivealive0
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Yes, I realize now that I totally forgot to address my thought on that topic. I don't think they ever did really talk about it. I think GRRM made a mistake. I have always gotten the impression that it happened not long before the wedding was supposed to happen and not long before Lyanna was "abducted." I've never seen any reason to doubt this, save this line by Ned. I think GRRM just hadn't really thought this timeline through very well when he wrote it. It was, after all, very early in AGoT. You'd think it would be caught at editing, but you might need a lot of details from the later books to really catch this type of thing as an editor. It's not like GRRM provides any decent timeline illustrations.
I really think GRRM's very timeline challenged. I just don't think it's his forte and so while we struggle to fit stuff together, we never will because he was writing with a flow that did not include a calendar. I would agree that the duel and it's fall out probably happened not long before Lyanna's abduction, which might also explain why Cat was unaware of Lysa's pregnancy, since she would have been focusing on Brandon's actions and her own wedding.
I will say that it is possible that Brandon wrote Ned from Riverrun and / or King's Landing.
Somehow I have a hard time imagining Brandon sitting down and composing venting letters by raven-mail that complained "hotly" about Petyr Baelish. I would think that Ned and Brandon had to have discussed this in person. That is what I take from Ned's comment to Littlefinger, any way.
Still I standby the sequence Pregnancy, Harrenhal, Duel. Either way, yes I think it is possible that they stayed away because of Lysa.
That said, the duel would have to be very close to Harrenhal, or else, wouldn't Baelish already be sent away? It makes a lot of sense to me that Lysa maybe spoke up while LF was infirmed, and that it just further enflamed an already raw situation.
If it did happen soon before Lyanna's kidnapping, this makes the most sense. So, Harrenhal had to come first, then Petyr and Lysa as lovers, the duel, Littlefinger's banishment from Riverrun, Lyanna's kidnapping, Lysa's pregnancy is discoved by Hoster but Cat is unaware because she is focused on Lyanna's kidnapping and Brandon's disappearance, etc. But if Littlefinger did lose everything right before Lyanna's kidnapping, it makes me even more suspicious that he had either something to do with it, or something to do with the letter Brandon received that made him ride off in a fury that apparently lasted weeks until he could act like a jack ass at the Red Keep and get himself arrested.
Perhaps if Brandon complained to Ned after the duel (which happened after Harrenhal) that is a sign that Brandon and Ned did speak again at some time after Harrenhal. We don't know that they did but we don't know that they didn't, either.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
So, Harrenhal had to come first, then Petyr and Lysa as lovers, the duel, Littlefinger's banishment from Riverrun, Lyanna's kidnapping, Lysa's pregnancy is discoved by Hoster but Cat is unaware because she is focused on Lyanna's kidnapping and Brandon's disappearance, etc.
This is plausible. The visit by Blackwood and Bracken, when lysa came to would logically be while the 2 houses were on their way to Harrenhal or on their way home from it.
it makes me even more suspicious that he had either something to do with it, or something to do with the letter Brandon received that made him ride off in a fury that apparently lasted weeks until he could act like a jack ass at the Red Keep and get himself arrested.
I am almost certain that LF was the source of the information Brandon got about Lyanna. It was his revenge and it is the pattern he took for the rest of his career, and used against Ned much later.
Perhaps if Brandon complained to Ned after the duel (which happened after Harrenhal) that is a sign that Brandon and Ned did speak again at some time after Harrenhal. We don't know that they did but we don't know that they didn't, either.
I just don't think they spoke about it face to face at all. Perhaps he heard it secondhand, from Ashara Dayne, maybe, or Hoster?
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I am almost certain that LF was the source of the information Brandon got about Lyanna. It was his revenge and it is the pattern he took for the rest of his career, and used against Ned much later.
For a long time I thought LF played some role, in either the letter or Lyanna's disappearance, (especially in regards to his dealings with Sansa's kidnapping and Jeyne Poole's (fArya's) treatment, but his injury and youth had changed my mind, but it's all coming round full circle again and he seems likely to be some how involved.
I just don't think they spoke about it face to face at all. Perhaps he heard it secondhand, from Ashara Dayne, maybe, or Hoster?
Then why does Ned plainly say that Brandon spoke often about Littlefinger, and hotly. "Often, and with some heat". It could not be more specific, although I guess Ned could have gotten this information second hand. But then where the heck was Brandon at complaining about Littlefinger that Ned was not a part of but was able to hear about later?
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
For a long time I thought LF played some role, in either the letter or Lyanna's disappearance, (especially in regards to his dealings with Sansa's kidnapping and Jeyne Poole's (fArya's) treatment, but his injury and youth had changed my mind, but it's all coming round full circle again and he seems likely to be some how involved
I just think that personality-wise, he would not have shed the defeat. And circumstantially he would have been in the right place to witness such an event, perhaps the crossroads Inn or somewhere else along the Trident. No way he takes the high road back to the vale, his path was by sea, and the Trident is the way to get there. It would also be on Rheagar's path back from Dragonstone.
Then why does Ned plainly say that Brandon spoke often about Littlefinger, and hotly. "Often, and with some heat". It could not be more specific, although I guess Ned could have gotten this information second hand. But then where the heck was Brandon at complaining about Littlefinger that Ned was not a part of but was able to hear about later?
I am more convinced than ever that GRRM just hadn't fully fleshed out the back story when writing this line. I just saw another interview where he is asked about how he wrote the first book having know this backstory, and his response was eye-opening. My paraphrasing of it is that he said he learned the backstory as he was writing the main story. It is on one of the interviews recently posted on the "Aegon Targaryen" YouTube channel. Definitely worth the listen.
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Crying Cockles and Mussels, AliveAlive0 - The song Molly Malone
I just think that personality-wise, he would not have shed the defeat. And circumstantially he would have been in the right place to witness such an event, perhaps the crossroads Inn or somewhere else along the Trident. No way he takes the high road back to the vale, his path was by sea, and the Trident is the way to get there. It would also be on Rheagar's path back from Dragonstone.
It's likely he was involved and because he is a conniving asshat, he would try to stir up as much turmoil as he could.
I am more convinced than ever that GRRM just hadn't fully fleshed out the back story when writing this line. I just saw another interview where he is asked about how he wrote the first book having know this backstory, and his response was eye-opening. My paraphrasing of it is that he said he learned the backstory as he was writing the main story. It is on one of the interviews recently posted on the "Aegon Targaryen" YouTube channel. Definitely worth the listen.
While I agree that the backstory is often growing, GRRM can't deny the words he already has written, and we can't deny the possible meanings behind them either. I do think is was also meant to hint to us of the Stark's having "heat" in them, which in Branson's case, seems to indicate a temper. Which is why I find Ned's bouts of anger so interesting. He veers between icy rage and red rage and fury, but the red rage is the one I associate with heat. Or blood, could be another option, but Ned is very mad in that moment and he is not immune to the wolf's blood any more than his siblings are.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
He veers between icy rage and red rage and fury, but the red rage is the one I associate with heat. Or blood, could be another option, but Ned is very mad in that moment and he is not immune to the wolf's blood any more than his siblings are.
Reminds me that the mention of Ashara Dayne's name is the one that produces anger from him that causes Cat to be truly afraid. This time it was cold.
The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face. That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady." She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne's name was never heard in Winterfell again.
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Crying Cockles and Mussels, AliveAlive0 - The song Molly Malone
Reminds me that the mention of Ashara Dayne's name is the one that produces anger from him that causes Cat to be truly afraid. This time it was cold.
The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face. That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady." She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne's name was never heard in Winterfell again.
Yes, he is "cold as ice" in that instance, but Cat doesn't describe him as angry, just cold and that I think is what frightened her. Interesting in this same chapter, when Cat talks about Jon again, Ned "blazed" and with "fury on him", which is not at all like how Cat describes remembering Ned's reaction to either Jon or Ashara years before, the icy coldness. There is no doubt that there is some Ice in the Stark's, but it's the hints of fire in the Stark's that I find so curious. I am just not sure if it's Targaryen related or if it comes from something else and long before.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Well the whole thing about building in the wrong place because of the hot springs tells me there is definitely something fiery from long ago.
I don't know if it's the wrong space, but it's definitely a interesting conjunction of the idea of ice and fire. Fire helps one survive ice, and that is what Winterfell seems to mean to the north. It's a way to plumb the earth and help people survive the cold times. Yet, there is plenty of ice in the Stark's, so perhaps it all does come back to the Night King, a fiery Stark, and the Night's Queen, an icy Other, and that combination is what helps both the Starks survive, as well as the rest of the peoples of the north.
I have long felt like Winterfell is named for the Hill (fjell) of Winter. The key is that the hill is filled with fire and heat to help people survive in the winter, hence it's the hill that people go to in the winter for life!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
In my head cannon, the Harrenhal tourney comes first, then the duel. But what is interesting is that Ned says that Brandon talked to him of Littlefinger, and that could hint to us that the duel actually happened before Harrenhal, and that Brandon and Ned could have talked about the duel at the Harrenhal tourney. I don't think the text clarifies it either way.
If he was at a party getting drunk, he logically wouldn't be also bedridden from the duel. Notably, this is the time he claimed to have bedded Cat, he was so dunk, he may even believe it to be true. Lysa goes on to reveal:
I absolutely believe that Baelish things he bedded Cat on the night of Bracken/Blackwood party. This I think is part of the reason he decided to fight the duel since he truly believed Cat loved him back. At least at that point.
It still makes the most sense to me that the duel happened after Harrenhal and before Lyanna's kidnapping, but I'm just a bit confused by Ned's comments about Brandon talking about Littlefinger, "often, and with some heat". Of course, Brandon might not have liked Littlefinger well before the duel.
Makes you wonder if Brandon spent time at Riverrun before all these events. Else when did he have time to build this rivalry unless its all from the duel?
I really think GRRM's very timeline challenged. I just don't think it's his forte and so while we struggle to fit stuff together, we never will because he was writing with a flow that did not include a calendar. I would agree that the duel and it's fall out probably happened not long before Lyanna's abduction, which might also explain why Cat was unaware of Lysa's pregnancy, since she would have been focusing on Brandon's actions and her own wedding.
I think its decent in the actual progress of time in the moons. Like phases of the moon and the comet etc. However his timelines prior to the actual story are as muddled as the maesters.
Somehow I have a hard time imagining Brandon sitting down and composing venting letters by raven-mail that complained "hotly" about Petyr Baelish. I would think that Ned and Brandon had to have discussed this in person. That is what I take from Ned's comment to Littlefinger, any way.
This is plausible. The visit by Blackwood and Bracken, when lysa came to would logically be while the 2 houses were on their way to Harrenhal or on their way home from it.
What if the Blackwood/Bracken meeting was just before Harrenhal? It would make sense if Harrenhal was possible "Great Council."
Hoster is an underappreciated schemer. Baelish likely had a good education from him.
I am almost certain that LF was the source of the information Brandon got about Lyanna. It was his revenge and it is the pattern he took for the rest of his career, and used against Ned much later.
While it certain fits the later MO I have always liked the theory that Tywin had a paw in it. Its hard to fit on the timeline of these events. Either way Baelish would have had to been very lucky for all this information to fall in him lap while injured.
I absolutely believe that Baelish things he bedded Cat on the night of Bracken/Blackwood party. This I think is part of the reason he decided to fight the duel since he truly believed Cat loved him back. At least at that point.
This is very possible and it makes me wonder if Petyr still loved her after this or sought vengeance against her and her whole family from that moment? Petyr Baelish lost quite a bit during that duel with Brandon, but this was also about the time that it would be found out that he got Lysa pregnant. Still, it almost makes sense for Hoster to marry Lysa to Petyr, but instead he opts for a forced abortion which then turned Lysa against him and cleaved her stronger to Littlefinger, and he also turned Littlefinger into an enemy, although he probably didn't realize what Littlefinger would become, or worry that he should fear him.
Makes you wonder if Brandon spent time at Riverrun before all these events. Else when did he have time to build this rivalry unless its all from the duel?
So, these things seem to hint that Brandon spent time both at Riverrun and the Eyrie before his wedding to Cat was to take place. To get to know Littlefinger AND to tell Ned about it. I guess it could have been just one meeting at Riverrun, but since it seems Lyanna's kidnapping must have happened close to the time of the duel, that doesn't make sense. And it's possible that we are thinking about all of this in much more detail than GRRM ever has. I still think timeline is his weakest skill as a writer.
What if the Blackwood/Bracken meeting was just before Harrenhal? It would make sense if Harrenhal was possible "Great Council."
Hoster is an underappreciated schemer. Baelish likely had a good education from him.
I do think it makes sense, except why was Hoster not at Harrenhal then? It doesn't seem like he nor his children were there. I guess I can see leaving his children behind, but why not go himself? Unless the whole mess with Lysa was revealed and he knew he had to stay home to deal with it. And this could mean that Brandon talked to Ned about Baelish at Harrenhal, except then that would also mean that Lyanna's kidnapping must have quickly followed. That's a lot of events in a short time. Lysa and Littlefinger as lovers, the wedding announcement and duel with the Blackwood/Bracken meeting, Harrenhal, the planned wedding, the kidnapping, and all of that in a few months? I guess it's possible, but it's tight. At least this way, Brandon would not have needed to go to the Vale, but then why was he traveling with several people from the Vale at the time he found out about Lyanna and rode off to Kings Landing in a fury? It's a tangle, for sure.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.