Well, if this is satire, it is amazing! Otherwise all of the "obviously", "there is no doubt", "we know that", "due to smart reddit user's" and "certainly"'s in this video, it is shocking that I took so long to doubt! Wow! So many times I wanted to yell at the video and say no way! Stunning!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Well, if this is satire, it is amazing! Otherwise all of the "obviously", "there is no doubt", "we know that", "due to smart reddit user's" and "certainly"'s in this video, it is shocking that I took so long to doubt! Wow! So many times I wanted to yell at the video and say no way! Stunning!
Confirmation bias is a strong force in the human brain. It is how we snatch conclusions from the well of uncertainty. The asoiaf community is very human, and GRRM repeatedly offers notoriously incomplete data sets.
What I find striking about RLJ, is just how trusting many fans are. GRRM's greatest gift as a writer is using expectations (tropes) against readers. GRRM has used his gift against readers of his work nearly 50 years, and by the time he began writing asoiaf, this subversive technique was as natural for him as breathing (eating). LOL
GRRM repeatedly offers simple solutions (The Lannisters killed Jon Arryn) and even offers simple pathways to those solutions (The Lannisters killed Jon Arryn to cover up twincest), all while planting clues that these simple solutions are quite wrong (Lysa fleeing KL against orders from the king, Ned's belief that poison is a woman's weapon, etc).
It is easy for GRRM to do this to readers because he understands human nature and confirmation bias. Ned heard that the family he didn't like killed the father-figure he loved, and it was easy for him to believe. It was what he wanted to believe. He then went looking for clues that would prove the conclusion he already believed.
That is not how an honest investigator examines evidence, and GRRM illustrated the folly of such techniques in horrific detail for readers with Ned's POV.
Yet... so many fans are eager to follow in Ned's footsteps. They hear that Jon Snow could be a hidden heir or royal bastard and they want to believe it. It's the story they know and are comforted by, from Jesus to Superman. They then go looking for clues that prove the conclusion they already believe MUST be true.
It is folly. GRRM knows that all men are fools and all men are knights, and he knows that Love does not change a man's nature. If anything, Love brings his nature to light. And GRRM knows that we will love the possibility of Jon being a special hero, and that we will jump on our mounts and rush into battle for him.
Yet, he constantly tells us that such acts are foolish. Or rather, he has STRONG WOMEN tell us that such acts are foolish. From Lyanna to Tansel-too-tall, women are the unheeded voice of reason in asoiaf.
If we begin with Lyanna as our starting point, and heed her words and character rather than the fools around her, we are left with a much different outcome.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Post by freyfamilyreunion on Oct 11, 2017 20:58:17 GMT
I think my initial reason for doubting RLJ, is that it's too obvious. George is usually more subtle and ambiguous with his mysteries, so it seems fairly odd that the biggest mystery in the series is the least subtle and ambiguous.
The other reason to doubt RLJ, is that George has laid a foundation early on in AGOT, and continued it through Jon's entire POV chapters that is not furthered by making Jon the son of Rhaegar.
Early on George has set up an internal conflict within Jon (and an external conflict with Cat) dealing with Jon's desire for Winterfell.
This conflict within Jon continues right up to the chapter before Jon's death scene at the end of ADWD.
The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. "I am the Lord of Winterfell," Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled...
Rhaegar being Jon's father does not forward the storyline concerning Jon's conflict. But Jon being the son of Brandon certainly does.
Jon being the son of Brandon also adds to the external conflict between Cat and Jon. Cat's main fault, was her hatred of Jon, a hatred born out of Cat's fear that Jon will endanger her children and her children's claim to Winterfell. Cat's obsession with Robb's rule of Winterfell and being the king of the north even survived her death and resurrection. Brienne sees Cat fondling Robb's crown of the north. So if Cat is now ruled by her darkest obsessions, and a resurrected Jon becomes ruled by his...
Once again a conflict that has been carefully cultivated by George in which Rhaegar being Jon's father does not advance.
And finally we have Ned's story arc. Where Ned is haunted by the promise that Lyanna exhorted from him on her death bed, and he is haunted by that promise even when Robert is dead and he is lying in the black cells. If Jon is Rhaegar's son, than Ned fulfilled his promise and kept Jon safe from Robert, the promise should not continue to haunt Ned. But if instead, Lyanna made Ned promise her that he would have Jon legitimized and give Jon his birthright, than Ned did indeed break that promise, and it would explain why the promise continues to haunt Ned up until his death.
Well, if this is satire, it is amazing! Otherwise all of the "obviously", "there is no doubt", "we know that", "due to smart reddit user's" and "certainly"'s in this video, it is shocking that I took so long to doubt! Wow! So many times I wanted to yell at the video and say no way! Stunning!
WT Shizer? When the video puts it this way.....It even sounds more like a fairy tale.Some of this crap ain't even inferred in the books.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
Well, if this is satire, it is amazing! Otherwise all of the "obviously", "there is no doubt", "we know that", "due to smart reddit user's" and "certainly"'s in this video, it is shocking that I took so long to doubt! Wow! So many times I wanted to yell at the video and say no way! Stunning!
Confirmation bias is a strong force in the human brain. It is how we snatch conclusions from the well of uncertainty. The asoiaf community is very human, and GRRM repeatedly offers notoriously incomplete data sets.
What I find striking about RLJ, is just how trusting many fans are. GRRM's greatest gift as a writer is using expectations (tropes) against readers. GRRM has used his gift against readers of his work nearly 50 years, and by the time he began writing asoiaf, this subversive technique was as natural for him as breathing (eating). LOL
GRRM repeatedly offers simple solutions (The Lannisters killed Jon Arryn) and even offers simple pathways to those solutions (The Lannisters killed Jon Arryn to cover up twincest), all while planting clues that these simple solutions are quite wrong (Lysa fleeing KL against orders from the king, Ned's belief that poison is a woman's weapon, etc).
It is easy for GRRM to do this to readers because he understands human nature and confirmation bias. Ned heard that the family he didn't like killed the father-figure he loved, and it was easy for him to believe. It was what he wanted to believe. He then went looking for clues that would prove the conclusion he already believed.
That is not how an honest investigator examines evidence, and GRRM illustrated the folly of such techniques in horrific detail for readers with Ned's POV.
Yet... so many fans are eager to follow in Ned's footsteps. They hear that Jon Snow could be a hidden heir or royal bastard and they want to believe it. It's the story they know and are comforted by, from Jesus to Superman. They then go looking for clues that prove the conclusion they already believe MUST be true.
It is folly. GRRM knows that all men are fools and all men are knights, and he knows that Love does not change a man's nature. If anything, Love brings his nature to light. And GRRM knows that we will love the possibility of Jon being a special hero, and that we will jump on our mounts and rush into battle for him.
Yet, he constantly tells us that such acts are foolish. Or rather, he has STRONG WOMEN tell us that such acts are foolish. From Lyanna to Tansel-too-tall, women are the unheeded voice of reason in asoiaf.
If we begin with Lyanna as our starting point, and heed her words and character rather than the fools around her, we are left with a much different outcome.
I agree with everything you said up until listening to Lyanna.If anything GRRM has told us all in all are people are seldom wrong.Women strong opinions or preference withstanding are no different.
1.Sansa wanted pretty boy Joffery who sparkled like a tiara but turned out to be a real toad.Her preconceived notions got a dose of reality.She didn't want a match that was "brave and gentle" per her father;Note that-She wanted what "she thought" Joffery was.
2.Cat was drawn to Brandon but ended up loving solemn face Ned with all her heart.
3.Drogo was a barbarian to Dany but yet still he became her sun.
4.Ygrain was a savage, skinny legged, crooked teeth thing to Jon.But he loved her.
See where I am going with this.Lyanna knows "love doesn't change a man" because of her years of extensive experience about such things? Rigggggght.Her several boyfriends in her long life told her love can't change a man's nature.
You are right GRRM is good at what he does.Apologize for typos and such.Still on the cell.
See where I am going with this.Lyanna knows "love doesn't change a man" because of her years of extensive experience about such things? Rigggggght.Her several boyfriends in her long life told her love can't change a man's nature.
This can also be read as her feelings of love for Robert,that it won't change him; except that he loved her until the day he died. She is expressing the insecurity of loving a man whom she worries may not be true to her. Her brother Brandon is as much an example as Robert, someone GRRM has said sired a few bastards of his own. She knows Brandon, she doesn't know Robert all that well. She questions whether Robert will be like Brandon.
Well, if this is satire, it is amazing! Otherwise all of the "obviously", "there is no doubt", "we know that", "due to smart reddit user's" and "certainly"'s in this video, it is shocking that I took so long to doubt! Wow! So many times I wanted to yell at the video and say no way! Stunning!
It's almost mesmerizing to be honest! As someone who came into this very late and had watched some (but not that many) videos, I was a bit confused over how much videos stated as facts but wasn't actually in the text. As I see other videos and read on other forums, this tendency has spread like wildfire! It's truly amazing!
What I find striking about RLJ, is just how trusting many fans are. GRRM's greatest gift as a writer is using expectations (tropes) against readers. GRRM has used his gift against readers of his work nearly 50 years, and by the time he began writing asoiaf, this subversive technique was as natural for him as breathing (eating). LOL
I haven't read anything else of him, so I can't say anything about his writingstyle. But I really don't understand how dedicated longtime fans agree that he is The Tropebreaker and then turns around and heatedly defends the biggest trope of them all: the hidden prince. For a couple of days I've actually ventured over to W and read a few threads, and one Defender of the Truth came up with logical explanation for why Martin would do this (paraphrazing): I've seen casual showwatchers saying "So what?", but they don't understand that for us longtime bookreaders who knows the story it is truly chocking! And they don't understand what it means for the story! It's called The Song of Ice and Fire. In other words: he points out the exact reason this is a heavily used trope, and still doesn't see it. I do feel a bit like a bitch hanging him/her out to dry like this, in my defence I can't remember either user or thread and I've seen so many similar arguments to defend it. So it's not personal in any way, I'm just puzzled over the thoughtprosses here. As someone who was that casual showwatcher not that long ago, my reaction was "Oh, ok." Not because I didn't care or saw the potential for the story, but that is was not suprising at all. Can't say I had any expectations either, but the trope was certainly not lost on me! Hence not a suprise.
GRRM repeatedly offers simple solutions (The Lannisters killed Jon Arryn) and even offers simple pathways to those solutions (The Lannisters killed Jon Arryn to cover up twincest), all while planting clues that these simple solutions are quite wrong (Lysa fleeing KL against orders from the king, Ned's belief that poison is a woman's weapon, etc).
I have seen this used as an argument FOR RLJ actually: because the real clues to Arryns murder is mentioned and we hear about Ashara/Wylla/Fisherman's daugther as options for Jon's mother, but never Lyanna as the mother. Therefor Lyanna has to be the answer and it's really really well hidden, unlike the other three options. How Lyanna and Rhaegar wasn't connected at all in the text I couldn't really understand, but... My jaw is bruised after reading that!
It is easy for GRRM to do this to readers because he understands human nature and confirmation bias. Ned heard that the family he didn't like killed the father-figure he loved, and it was easy for him to believe. It was what he wanted to believe. He then went looking for clues that would prove the conclusion he already believed.
That is not how an honest investigator examines evidence, and GRRM illustrated the folly of such techniques in horrific detail for readers with Ned's POV.
Could you say that the whole series is a statement on confirmations bias? I'm starting to suspect that it is!
Yet... so many fans are eager to follow in Ned's footsteps. They hear that Jon Snow could be a hidden heir or royal bastard and they want to believe it. It's the story they know and are comforted by, from Jesus to Superman. They then go looking for clues that prove the conclusion they already believe MUST be true.
I know! The advice the Arryn case gave the readers hasn't been taken it seems. So I guess we'll just have to .
It is folly. GRRM knows that all men are fools and all men are knights, and he knows that Love does not change a man's nature. If anything, Love brings his nature to light. And GRRM knows that we will love the possibility of Jon being a special hero, and that we will jump on our mounts and rush into battle for him.
Yet, he constantly tells us that such acts are foolish. Or rather, he has STRONG WOMEN tell us that such acts are foolish. From Lyanna to Tansel-too-tall, women are the unheeded voice of reason in asoiaf.
If we begin with Lyanna as our starting point, and heed her words and character rather than the fools around her, we are left with a much different outcome.
Confirmation bias is a strong force in the human brain. It is how we snatch conclusions from the well of uncertainty. The asoiaf community is very human, and GRRM repeatedly offers notoriously incomplete data sets.
Well, certainly, there is a lot of incomplete ideas that are followed through and declared "truth" by many people, including the person responsible for this video. I followed that path for my first couple reads, and it was only after I could see all the ways my mind had been mislead by misdirection, AND I came to understand how very smart GRRM was as a writer that I started to doubt, and look at different ideas. I don't even blame people for following the path he lays. It's a nice, wide, well manicured path. But I have to assume that the person who made this video has read the books more than a couple times, and that is where I find myself surprised. Because even after 10 reads of the books, if you still believe RLJ is truth (it is still a viable option), a person should be able to admit that it's not as cut as dry as people like to make it seem. Like this video makes it seem. So many theories presented as fact, and for a casual reader, if you see this video after never reading, or maybe only reading once, then you would have no reason to doubt.
That is one of the things that I find refreshing about channel's like, for instance, the order of the green hand, who have created a solid challenge to the idea of RLJ. Even though I don't buy all of their conclusions, they do a nice job of casting doubt. Of course, Preston Jacobs does a great job of this as well, and he certainly can focus on details of the text that others don't see. Also, I love the way he pokes at the show!
I think my initial reason for doubting RLJ, is that it's too obvious. George is usually more subtle and ambiguous with his mysteries, so it seems fairly odd that the biggest mystery in the series is the least subtle and ambiguous.
Yes. Subtle and ambiguous is something that the above video has none of. It's laughable, actually, but three years ago, I probably would have nodded at the words in the video as wisdom. I am so glad that I opened my eyes! Subtle, ambiguous and misdirection are the key tools of GRRM's story telling!
Rhaegar being Jon's father does not forward the storyline concerning Jon's conflict. But Jon being the son of Brandon certainly does.
Jon being the son of Brandon also adds to the external conflict between Cat and Jon. Cat's main fault, was her hatred of Jon, a hatred born out of Cat's fear that Jon will endanger her children and her children's claim to Winterfell. Cat's obsession with Robb's rule of Winterfell and being the king of the north even survived her death and resurrection. Brienne sees Cat fondling Robb's crown of the north. So if Cat is now ruled by her darkest obsessions, and a resurrected Jon becomes ruled by his...
This could be said if Jon is Brandon's son or Ned's son, if he is older than Robb, which he almost certainly is. It brings Ashara back into the picture for me as a mother, and Lyanna, of course. It lessons the idea of Arthur as a father for me, though, because he has no connection to Winterfell that would make his son the heir over the children of the eldest two Stark son's. The same can be said of Robert, if Winterfell is Jon's ultimate destiny. Now, maybe Jon's ultimate role isn't Winterfell, even though he covet's it, and then SAD is back in the picture, if Jonno's role is the next SotM! Or Robert, if the Storm Lords play an role in the end game. Still, I can't see how Winterfell and the crypts of it's rulers isn't important to Jon's end game.
This can also be read as her feelings of love for Robert,that it won't change him; except that he loved her until the day he died. She is expressing the insecurity of loving a man whom she worries may not be true to her. Her brother Brandon is as much an example as Robert, someone GRRM has said sired a few bastards of his own. She knows Brandon, she doesn't know Robert all that well. She questions whether Robert will be like Brandon.
This could certainly be Lyanna's train of thought. But then I think she must have loved Brandon in a way that wasn't brotherly, and she worried about allowing herself to love a man like Robert, who would change his ways no more than she feared Brandon would change his. We know that Ned was not like Brandon or Robert. In all fairness, we don't really know that much about Brandon, so maybe he wasn't as like Robert as has been inferred so far. We can also assume the little we know of SAD makes him unlike Brandon and Robert in regards to chasing tail! But there is no doubt much more to be revealed, so almost anything is possible.
It's almost mesmerizing to be honest! As someone who came into this very late and had watched some (but not that many) videos, I was a bit confused over how much videos stated as facts but wasn't actually in the text. As I see other videos and read on other forums, this tendency has spread like wildfire! It's truly amazing!
Could you say that the whole series is a statement on confirmations bias? I'm starting to suspect that it is!
I think it might be, and now that GRRM has caught so many people, hook, line and sinker, he might be afraid of the beast that he has created. Can he stand to disappoint the vast majority of the fan base that does see RLJ, who buy his books and ASOIAF and GOT merch, and praise the hidden prince idea, and reveal his true ending? Is this why things are taking so damn long? Because he is afraid of revealing the truth of his own story and disappointing so many people. Has age and money softened him into just allowing the fairy tale to proceed? I fear that it might be the case.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
This could certainly be Lyanna's train of thought. But then I think she must have loved Brandon in a way that wasn't brotherly, and she worried about allowing herself to love a man like Robert, who would change his ways no more than she feared Brandon would change his. We know that Ned was not like Brandon or Robert. In all fairness, we don't really know that much about Brandon, so maybe he wasn't as like Robert as has been inferred so far. We can also assume the little we know of SAD makes him unlike Brandon and Robert in regards to chasing tail! But there is no doubt much more to be revealed, so almost anything is possible.
I have some doubts about the starkcest scenario. For one, Ned falls in love with Ashara and I don't think he fell out of love with her for some time and don't think his character and morality would allow him to take advantage of his sister. Although Brandon is a cad, I'm not sure that Lyanna's sensibilities would allow her to have sexual relations with her brother. She has probably seen first hand something of his character in Barrowtown with Lady Dunsten.
There is a lot of projection about Robert's character after meeting him 15 years after the fact. He's something of a broken man who is still in love with his first love. If anyone had opportunity and motivation for relations with Lyanna, it's Robert. Whatever doubts Lyanna may have had; she would have married him just like Cat married Ned and Lysa married Jon Arryn or Robert married Cersei. It's the marriage alliance between houses that is important and she would have done her duty.
I haven't read anything else of him, so I can't say anything about his writingstyle. But I really don't understand how dedicated longtime fans agree that he is The Tropebreaker and then turns around and heatedly defends the biggest trope of them all: the hidden prince. For a couple of days I've actually ventured over to W and read a few threads, and one Defender of the Truth came up with logical explanation for why Martin would do this (paraphrazing): I've seen casual showwatchers saying "So what?", but they don't understand that for us longtime bookreaders who knows the story it is truly chocking! And they don't understand what it means for the story! It's called The Song of Ice and Fire. In other words: he points out the exact reason this is a heavily used trope, and still doesn't see it. I do feel a bit like a bitch hanging him/her out to dry like this, in my defence I can't remember either user or thread and I've seen so many similar arguments to defend it. So it's not personal in any way, I'm just puzzled over the thoughtprosses here. As someone who was that casual showwatcher not that long ago, my reaction was "Oh, ok." Not because I didn't care or saw the potential for the story, but that is was not suprising at all. Can't say I had any expectations either, but the trope was certainly not lost on me! Hence not a suprise.
The more of his stuff you read, the more you'll see how easy it is for him to weave multiple layers upon one another. There is a simple, predicable layer, which he will use against the reader so that they are surprised by the more complex, not-predicable layer.
What is truly remarkable, is that no matter how surprising they are, his twists never seem jerky or contrived. They emerge seamelessly from the plot. In looking back, or rereading, the foundations of the twists are obvious. But until you know what is coming, there are traps of predicability everywhere, waiting for the careless and unwary (to quote Will).
I have seen this used as an argument FOR RLJ actually: because the real clues to Arryns murder is mentioned and we hear about Ashara/Wylla/Fisherman's daugther as options for Jon's mother, but never Lyanna as the mother. Therefor Lyanna has to be the answer and it's really really well hidden, unlike the other three options. How Lyanna and Rhaegar wasn't connected at all in the text I couldn't really understand, but... My jaw is bruised after reading that!
Indeed. Lyanna, alone, is somewhat subtle (if we ignore the fact that she's one of the only women we ever see in a bed of blood, after being told that multiple women fight and die in beds of blood during childbirth in asoiaf). But the idea of Lyanna+Rhaegar is not subtle. As I pointed out in another thread, it is the first and only tale of the two we are ever told: Lyanna and Rhaegar, sitting in a tree, K-I-S-S-I-N-G...
And, GRRM knows that readers will pick up on the pairing. He wants them to. Expect them to. If they are not fantasy-savvy, he'll remind them -- again and again -- that Rhaegar loved Lyanna, chose Lyanna, died for Lyanna, throughout the novels.
And, GRRM knows that readers will pick up on the fact that Jon is not like the other Stark children. He wants them to. Expects them to. If they are not fantasy-savvy, he'll remind them -- again and again -- that Jon's wolf alone is white, Jon alone doesn't know who is mother is/was, Ned thinks of Lyanna (and Jon) throughout the first book, and, in the books that follow, Ned prays that two boys grow up close as brothers and Jon begins to question his own ancestry.
The part that make GRRM such a genius is that he knows fantasy aficionados will be looking for a hidden heir anyway. RLJ springs from the page within the first few chapters for such readers.
I wasn't one of them. I didn't give two shits about Jon's parentage on my first read. I was (am) all about Brandon the Builder and the Night's King. But, I did wonder about who his mother might have been. That made me think back, and do my first reread. Lyanna's bed of blood gave me my answer, and Rhaegar was the only choice for who put her there.
That isn't by chance, of course, as GRRM told us in no uncertain terms, from multiple characters, that Rhaegar stole Lyanna and had sex with her.
Trope accomplished.
From LotR to Spaceballs, hidden princes are a surefire way to appease the masses.
But upon more careful reading, one finds that the Lyanna+Rhaegar rumor doesn't make sense. It is, to start with, a rumor. Beyond the fact that it is incredibly obvious, the first story we are told, and the fact that GRRM is a more subtle author than that, we should know from our real life experiences that rumors are often easy to believe, and dead wrong.
A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.
And people forget that GRRM got his bachelor's and master's degrees in Journalism of all things. If ever there was a field of study that taught students about bias and perspective, and how they are best used and avoided, it is that.
GRRM knows that the perspective of the reader will shape the story they want to believe, and his subtle and subversive writing style demonstrates that understanding. He knows how to use our bias and perspective against us. He knows what we want to see, and gives us glimpses of that... while laying the foundation for something completely different.
He finds a way to force uncomfortable lessons upon us, based upon our shattered expectations. Brilliant stuff. And I think this is what many in the fandom tend to not understand about the guy. Many only grasp the superficial appeal, and cannot see the intricate web upon which it is built.
Well, certainly, there is a lot of incomplete ideas that are followed through and declared "truth" by many people, including the person responsible for this video. I followed that path for my first couple reads, and it was only after I could see all the ways my mind had been mislead by misdirection, AND I came to understand how very smart GRRM was as a writer that I started to doubt, and look at different ideas. I don't even blame people for following the path he lays. It's a nice, wide, well manicured path. But I have to assume that the person who made this video has read the books more than a couple times, and that is where I find myself surprised. Because even after 10 reads of the books, if you still believe RLJ is truth (it is still a viable option), a person should be able to admit that it's not as cut as dry as people like to make it seem. Like this video makes it seem. So many theories presented as fact, and for a casual reader, if you see this video after never reading, or maybe only reading once, then you would have no reason to doubt.
YES, YES, YES! The bold is exactly what I experienced as well.
And funnily enough, while I was easily duped on this particular mystery, I think I was slightly ahead of the curve on the Others and the Night's King. I was talking about their hierarchies and leadership structure long before it was acceptable as worthy discourse.
But yes, on the issue of Jon's parentage, I was way behind the curve. Tis indeed a wide, manicured path that gathers many of us, and leads us astray.
That is one of the things that I find refreshing about channel's like, for instance, the order of the green hand, who have created a solid challenge to the idea of RLJ. Even though I don't buy all of their conclusions, they do a nice job of casting doubt. Of course, Preston Jacobs does a great job of this as well, and he certainly can focus on details of the text that others don't see. Also, I love the way he pokes at the show!
Me three. orderofthegreenhand and I were recently trying to illuminate LmL and encourage him to doubt and question RLJ on Twitter. Alas, we were not successful. But, I think eventually he'll come around. Ideas of Ice and Fire is another cool youtube channel with some new perspective.
I have some doubts about the starkcest scenario. For one, Ned falls in love with Ashara and I don't think he fell out of love with her for some time and don't think his character and morality would allow him to take advantage of his sister. Although Brandon is a cad, I'm not sure that Lyanna's sensibilities would allow her to have sexual relations with her brother. She has probably seen first hand something of his character in Barrowtown with Lady Dunsten.
There is a lot of projection about Robert's character after meeting him 15 years after the fact. He's something of a broken man who is still in love with his first love. If anyone had opportunity and motivation for relations with Lyanna, it's Robert. Whatever doubts Lyanna may have had; she would have married him just like Cat married Ned and Lysa married Jon Arryn or Robert married Cersei. It's the marriage alliance between houses that is important and she would have done her duty.
Well, we all see what we see, and sometimes it's because it's what we want to see. I doubt the fan base will every agree fully on any one thing.
I myself doubt that Ned ever fell in love with Ashara. Does it say that in the text, or is it just implied? Ned knew Ashara, he danced with her according to a second hand story (Meera), but it never says he loved her or had sex with her in any way that can be confirmed. There are no eye witnesses to that. Ned Dayne's story is as questionable as what Harwin thinks he heard or knew of events that happened a generation ago. Ned might have loved Ashara, but he might not have, too.
We don't know about Lyanna's character or morality, really, either. We know she defended Howland against the squires at Harrenhal and we are told that Lyanna had concerns about Robert remaining faithful to the marriage bed, but we don't know if she would have either. We really know nothing about her sexual morality. For all we know, she could have been as free with her charms as Cersei has turned out to be. Lyanna could very well be a sexual aggressor who seduced her brother(s). We don't know much at all. And we don't know that Lyanna would have married Robert as she was supposed to do, if the "kidnapping" and rebellion had not happened. It can be assumed, but not known.
We don't know if Ned would or would not have sex with his sister. I admit that might seem out of character for him, but we the reader make a lot of Ned's honor that really isn't defined in the text. We do know that Ned loved Lyanna with all his heart, what ever that might mean. Ned doesn't seem to be shocked when finding out that Cersei and Jaime have had sex, only maybe surprised that Cersei managed to establish that Robert is the father of her children when we all know that Jaime is the bio-father, and that Robert never figured it out. But he does not seem shocked, surprised or offended to find out about Jaime and Cersei's relationship. We get a very vague "Ned felt sick", but why or what made him feel sick is very open to interpretation as far as I am concerned. We know that Ned seems to think of Jon at a time he is thinking of bastards, that Jon's face looks much like a younger version of his own, and he wonders about why the gods would give men such lusts that they behaved in a way that bastards are even possible. And I am not sure he even means men, as in the males of society as much as he might mean man as in mankind. Women most certainly feel lust, as much as men do. I don't think that Ned is immune to lust. I don't think that many members of "mankind" are. And I wonder that the "old gods" that are filling Ned, and other "men" with such lust isn't Bloodraven through the weirnet, and we are fairly certain that Bloodraven was a man who had a sexual relationship with his own half-sister, and that she had a sexual relationship with another of her half-brothers. This is certainly a sibling incest triangle in the past, and it seems like this story repeats itself in mirrors of previous events. So, where is the sibling incest triangle of this generation, or the next?
I do agree that Robert is a bit of a broken man, but he allowed himself to fall into that. I do have sympathy for Robert, but it might be more for the man he once was, or at least the man that Ned thinks he was and/or remembers Robert to be, than the man that Robert became or ever was. I am not sure that Lyanna was his first, or only love, only that she might be the "one that got away" and that is one of the reasons her memory lingers. I admit that could be me reading into the text what I want to see. Ned does seem to appreciate that Robert remembered Lyanna after all the years that have passed, but in general "Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall" is how Ned thinks of his best friend. Ned seems to feel that Robert felt about Barra's mother as any of the women that Robert "loved", such as Mya's mother, whom Robert eventually lost interest in. Maybe the reason that Robert never "forgot" Lyanna was because she was never his conquest in a sexual way. Evenfall is an interesting nod to Tarth, and Brienne, and Brienne does have stunning blue eyes, and is from the stormlands. I am not sure what I am even implying here, except that Robert has some bastards that are not accounted for.
The most concrete evidence we have for Jon's parentage is the fact that Ned called Jon son for all the north (and his wife to see), much to Catelyn's dismay, and that Ned has told Robert that Jon's mothers' name is Wylla! And that can all be argued away too! We do know that Jon seems to look a lot like Ned, which we are told from several POV's and insights, including the Neddard himself.
There is a lot of stuff we will never know because we didn't get a Robert POV before his death, and we never got a Lyanna POV, and what we have a Ned's POV is guarded and the author only gives us as much as he is willing to reveal at certain times. Frustrating, maddening, and aggravating but makes for a good mystery!
Hell, we might all end up being wrong! That might be the most fabulous outcome possible! Nobody wins!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Me three. orderofthegreenhand and I were recently trying to illuminate LmL and encourage him to doubt and question RLJ on Twitter. Alas, we were not successful. But, I think eventually he'll come around. Ideas of Ice and Fire is another cool youtube channel with some new perspective.
I have not looked at all of LmL's stuff, but I have checked out his blog page, were he posts his theories, and I seen him make a comment (grandly paraphrasing here, so sorry to LmL if I am misrepresenting his thoughts) that he was no longer willing too look at any idea that was not RLJ because he had previously investigated other parentage theories and he didn't feel any of them made as much narrative sense as RLJ, but at least he implies he has looked at other ideas. And that is fine! I don't even blame him for feeling that way, honestly. He is focused on much grander concepts than the parentage of one character and I am glad he is! Some of his connections are pretty damn impressive and I applaud! Some of his connections I squint at and don't see so much of, but I think that is the case with all theories. We buy some, we pass on some, and we circle the sales racks and debate around and around about all the others!
Order of the Green Hand has some nice stuff, and I think they do a great job of looking at the text for inspiration, but I don't buy it all. I really appreciate that they have gained traction in a nice and organized way and are successfully casting doubt on RLJ. Ideas of Ice and Fire is nice too, as he is obviously a fan of the books and fantasy literature in general. Secret's of the Citadel I used to enjoy more, and I still like her history and lore stuff, but she is certainly a believer in RLJ, and I feel she is rather dismissive of any other ideas about Jon's parentage. Rawrist, great history and lore, but pretty much on the RLJ train. Granted, she is focused on a much bigger scifi/fantasy world than ASOIAF. I used to watch Smokescreen but I am beginning to doubt how deeply into the story he has actually read. He seems like he should be a doubter, but he is not! At least he does not scoff at people who have different idea's than him. Preston is sarcasm to the extreme (which I enjoy) and he is detail oriented and I enjoy that, as I am a detail geek!
I appreciate that even if you have your mind made up, you could try to be open to other the fact that other people see other options. And if you are going to post about it in a extremely public place such as YouTube, you should expect comments from people who disagree with you, but it is often not very nice over there, kind of like the Westeros boards. I have not watched any YouTube stuff since the mummer's show (aka season 7) ended. I can't handle the RLJ and the Dany/Jon couple love! But I am kind of an asshole!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Me three. orderofthegreenhand and I were recently trying to illuminate LmL and encourage him to doubt and question RLJ on Twitter. Alas, we were not successful. But, I think eventually he'll come around. Ideas of Ice and Fire is another cool youtube channel with some new perspective.
My goodness! I suspect he's not going to budge. I question whether his interpretation of the morning star as Venus (Lucifer/Lightbringer) is the only interpretation.
A Game of Thrones - Eddard X "And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.
Ser Arthur seems to be named after a star:
A Storm of Swords - Jon IV Ghost was gone when the wildings led their horses from the cave. Did he understand about Castle Black? Jon took a breath of the crisp morning air and allowed himself to hope. The eastern sky was pink near the horizon and pale grey higher up. The Sword of the Morning still hung in the south, the bright white star in its hilt blazing like a diamond in the dawn, but the blacks and greys of the darkling forest were turning once again to greens and golds, reds and russets. And above the soldier pines and oaks and ash and sentinels stood the Wall, the ice pale and glimmering beneath the dust and dirt that pocked its surface.
Orion's belt or sword:
Orion's Sword is an astronomical asterism in the constellation Orion. It comprises three stars (42 Orionis, Theta Orionis, and Iota Orionis) and M42, the Orion Nebula, which together are thought to resemble a sword or a scabbard. This group is situated under the prominent asterism, Orion's Belt, where it points in a southerly direction. Origins be wind Orion's Sword are based in mostly greco-roman tradition, though this group of stars is referenced as a weapon in multiple cultural contexts.
Orion served several roles in ancient Greek culture. The story of the adventures of Orion, the hunter, is the one on which we have the most evidence (and even on that not very much); he is also the personification of the constellation of the same name; he was venerated as a hero, in the Greek sense, in the region of Boeotia; and there is one etiological passage which says that Orion was responsible for the present shape of the Strait of Sicily.
In Homer's Iliad Orion is described as a constellation, and the star Sirius is mentioned as his dog.
Orion's Belt seems to be matching up with the Sword of the Morning hanging in the south. The hunter or perhaps the warrior of light seems to be matched with the Crone who is depicted with a lantern. This would also match with the Orion nebula itself:
A Storm of Swords - Davos VI. At the north window, he leaned against the sill for a breath of the cold night air, hoping to catch a glimpse of Mad Prendos raising sail, but the sea seemed black and empty as far as the eye could see. Is she gone already? He could only pray that she was, and the boy with her. A half moon was sliding in and out amongst thin high clouds, and Davos could see familiar stars. There was the Galley, sailing west; there the Crone's Lantern, four bright stars that enclosed a golden haze. The clouds hid most of the Ice Dragon, all but the bright blue eye that marked due north. The sky is full of smugglers' stars. They were old friends, those stars; Davos hoped that meant good luck
The warrior and the crone are frequently paired in the text with the crone showing the way or the path:
A Clash of Kings - Catelyn IV Lost and weary, Catelyn Stark gave herself over to her gods. She knelt before the Smith, who fixed things that were broken, and asked that he give her sweet Bran his protection. She went to the Maid and beseeched her to lend her courage to Arya and Sansa, to guard them in their innocence. To the Father, she prayed for justice, the strength to seek it and the wisdom to know it, and she asked the Warrior to keep Robb strong and shield him in his battles. Lastly she turned to the Crone, whose statues often showed her with a lamp in one hand. "Guide me, wise lady," she prayed. "Show me the path I must walk, and do not let me stumble in the dark places that lie ahead."
A Feast for Crows - Brienne I It was midday when Brienne heard chanting drifting through the bare brown trees. "What is that sound?" Ser Creighton asked. "Voices, raised in prayer." Brienne knew the chant. They are beseeching the Warrior for protection, asking the Crone to light their way.
A Feast for Crows - Brienne I But she had another longsword hidden in her bedroll. She sat on the bed and took it out. Gold glimmered yellow in the candlelight and rubies smoldered red. When she slid Oathkeeper from the ornate scabbard, Brienne's breath caught in her throat. Black and red the ripples ran, deep within the steel. Valyrian steel, spell-forged. It was a sword fit for a hero. When she was small, her nurse had filled her ears with tales of valor, regaling her with the noble exploits of Ser Galladon of Morne, Florian the Fool, Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, and other champions. Each man bore a famous sword, and surely Oathkeeper belonged in their company, even if she herself did not. "You'll be defending Ned Stark's daughter with Ned Stark's own steel," Jaime had promised.
Kneeling between the bed and wall, she held the blade and said a silent prayer to the Crone, whose golden lamp showed men the way through life. Lead me, she prayed, light the way before me, show me the path that leads to Sansa. She had failed Renly, had failed Lady Catelyn. She must not fail Jaime. He trusted me with his sword. He trusted me with his honor.
A Feast for Crows - Brienne II "M'lady? You look sad. Are you thinking of your sister?" The dwarf patted her on the hand. "The Crone will light your way to her, never fear. The Maiden will keep her safe."
A Feast for Crows - Jaime III "I anticipate no difficulty. The Crone will light our way, and the Warrior will give strength to our arms."
A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI "Some. Along with mothers and grandmothers, widows and maids … would you condemn them all to die, my lord?" "Brothers should not squabble," Septon Cellador said. "Let us kneel and pray to the Crone to light our way to wisdom." "Lord Snow," said The Norrey, "where do you mean to put these wildlings o' yours? Not on my lands, I hope."
A Dance with Dragons - Cersei I That night, when Septa Unella came to wrench her out of sleep, she found the queen waiting on her knees. "I have sinned," said Cersei. Her tongue was thick in her mouth, her lips raw and chapped. "I have sinned most grievously. I see that now. How could I have been so blind for so long? The Crone came to me with her lamp raised high, and by its holy light I saw the road that I must walk. I want to be clean again. I want only absolution. Please, good septa, I beg of you, take me to the High Septon so that I might confess my crimes and fornications."
A Dance with Dragons - The Queensguard Skahaz's smile was savage. "My word, then. No harm to Hizdahr till his guilt is proved. But when we have the proof, I mean to kill him with my own hands. I want to pull his entrails out and show them to him before I let him die."
No, the old knight thought. If Hizdahr conspired at my queen's death, I will see to him myself, but his death will be swift and clean. The gods of Westeros were far away, yet Ser Barristan Selmy paused for a moment to say a silent prayer, asking the Crone to light his way to wisdom. For the children, he told himself. For the city. For my queen.
Another astronomy factioid... Orion rising at dawn: