iirc, which I might not be, the NW dude was "Daeron."
Ooh, so close It's "Dareon". "Daeron" was a fairly popular Targ name, two kings I think. In current timeline we have a Daeron Vaith, the lord of Red Dunes, bannerman to House Martell. I swear, GRRM wasn't even trying with some of these names, I guess that's a hazard when your books have like, 10,000 named characters
The singer that lost his eyes at the Eire and the guy from the NW who Arya killed in Braavos, Simon Silveryongue
Also Tom of Sevenstreams, Hamish the Harper, Alaric of Eysen, The Blue Bard, Collio Quaynis of Tyrosh, Galyeon of Cuy, Guyard the Green, Whitesmile Wat, Rymund the Rhymer, Marillion (that's the chap who got fucked at the Eyrie), Symon Silver Tongue (he makes a tasty stew, wink wink), Alesander Frey (son of Symond Frey & Betharios of Braavos) and of course, Mance Rayder. There are also various unnamed singers and musicians that play throughout the books, such as Lord Manderley's musicians that played for Bran at Winterfell & an unknown singer that performed at Riverrun during a Cat chapter. So basically there are a shitload
While not impossible, this seems to be borne out of your own conviction that J =/= R+L. You've decided that it's D&D that are up to shenanigans with regard their account of the Martin meeting but in your heart of hearts, I'm sure you know that it could just as easily be George that's obfuscating in order to protect his own work.
Nah, there's literally an interview with both GRRM and D&D and GRRM says he made them answer a lot of questions which they got all right so he gave them the show, and then D&D immediately bring up the mother one themselves as being what got them the show. It's literally a direct contradiction and them bringing up the question they want brought up instead of talking about a subject they've never given any indication of before (that GRRM asked other questions equally as important). They're promoting it themselves.
I'm not saying the mother question isn't important, simply nowhere near as important as they make it out to be. They bring it up for promotional purposes because they know the fandom cares about it far more than most people do.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Even Arya is said to look like Ned. The common person here is Ned. He doesn't look like Lyanna, that's a stretch.
A great bit of analysis, but I don't think it is at all a stretch to say that Ned looked like Lyanna. We have an easy precedent for this, as Jon and Arya are said to look alike.
• Furthermore, Jon is described as being dark where Robb is fair, after Robb is described as having fair skin. This means that Jon has darker skin. Which couldn’t possibly come from Rhaegar who was fair himself. The only darker skinned Westorosi are Dornish, and Lyanna ain't Dornish either.
Exactly!
I think I'm the one that came up with this one right? Over at Sable Hall? Or was it you?
• Lyanna did not think that Robert could keep to one bed. It's awfully hypocritical that she would then willingly go off with an already married man and ruin that family, after expressing distaste at marrying a man who would ruin her own family with extra marital children. Furthermore, Lyanna expresses this opinion 2-3 years before she is abducted... we have no idea if she changed her opinion of Robert or not so it shouldn't just be assumed that Lyanna didn't want to marry Robert based off an old comment from the night she was promised to him.
Exactly2!
And this is what I don't understand about all of the X+Lyanna theories. They all launch from a starting point that makes no sense. They begin with whatever guy might have found Lyanna attractive, or attempt to join Jon to some mystical fate. (Yes, I know I am guilty of this too. LOL)
If we are going to take the leap, and assume that Lyanna is Jon's mother (instead of Ned's professed Wylla), then we should begin with Lyanna. Unless she really was raped by Rhaegar, we should assume she chose someone.
I think most of the theories ignore Lyanna herself -- her mind, her words, her character, her story, her strength, her iron underneath, her wolf blood.
approach Jon's parentage from the starting point of Lyanna-herself, rather than a preferred father-figure, it narrows the field of possible partners quite a bit.
- During this 2-3 years there's also conveniently no bastards from Robert. AKA the whole reason Lyanna didn't want to marry him. She never said Robert wasn't handsome and charming like everybody else thought, she didn't like his fidelity issues. There's no evidence of this here, thus no reason for her to not go through with the marriage
Not so. Lyanna's protest is not only about present and past events, it is mainly about the likelihood of Robert's future of infidelities.
Ned finds himself defending Robert's honor against his sister's better judgement. And, Lyanna didn't believe him.
• Ned doesn't think Rhaegar was the kind of guy to visit brothels (i.e sleep around) which means he wouldn't leave Elia to sleep with another woman
While it is difficult to make this claim with complete certainty, I agree that Ned's sentiments in this regard make little sense if Rhaegar was willing to abduct his 14 year old sister.
I mean, if Rhaegar actually had abducted his sister, and impregnated her, leaving her with child as a child-woman herself...Ned should be drawing a strong comparison between Rhaegar's behavior and Robert's behavior, instead of this strong contrast.
And, importantly, Ned's view is supported by other people who knew Rhaegar. Rhaegar was dutiful, bookish, and acceptable even to Tywin.
There are few areas in which Lannisters and Starks agree, yet both Starks and Lannisters seem to have believed that Aerys was a bad king and that Rhaegar would have been a better one.
Barristan seems to share this view as well.
So while I just got through complaining that folks rarely seem to consider Lyanna's own character in formulating theories about her, I think the same can be said of Rhaegar.
We know he decided to learn the way of sword and lance. We do not know that he was consumed by prophecies to the point of self-destruction and instigating civil war.
• Rhaegar said there must be 3 heads, but the 3 headed dragon was Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys when they conquered Westoros. Those are 3 full blooded siblings. Any child other than one by Rhaegar and Elia wouldn't make a 3rd head. It would make an Orys. They also needed a Visenya, not another boy. Furthermore, we have no idea if Rhaegar even uttered this as the visions have mistakes in them, and also we don't know if he uttered it because he needed a child from another woman as is claimed. We know that Elia couldn't give birth anymore, but we don't know if Rhaegar knows this yet at the time of the vision. He could just as easily have been saying that he and Elia need another child
Indeed.
And what's more, if he had wanted to recreate the three heads that conquered Westeros, Rhaegar would have needed another daughter. Not another son.
Aegon had two sister-wives. Not a bro and a sis.
Thus "the three heads of the dragon" are one-third male, and two-thirds female.
• Ashara Dayne seemingly gave birth at the exact time that Jon was supposedly born at, and we have a prior connection between Ashara and the Starks as Ned and Ashara danced together at Harrenhal and after being dishonoured she turned to some Stark. So it's entirely possible that Ashara's child was a Stark. Barristan says it died, but how would Barristan have known? - Wylla also seemingly gave birth at the same time Jon was supposedly born at, and Ned, Robert, and Edric all say she's the mother - Regardless, that means there's at 2 babies borns at the right time for Jon, even without Lyanna ever being pregnant. Lyanna simply makes 3 babies. No matter what we've got extra babies and 2 kids who need identities. It's silly to say which one definitely is Jon.
• The Dayne's have enormous respect for Ned which is weird considering he killed Arthur so there's something in there that he did for them and Ned and Arthur were both sad upon seeing they must fight each other. This would seem to point to Arthur being the father if Lyanna was Jon's mother, not Rhaegar, or it would indicate that Ashara was the mother. Dayne/Stark familiarity just doesn't work with Rhaegar in the equation.
Not only did Ned kill Arthur, according to Dayne-family history, Ned also caused Ashara to commit suicide.
And not only did Ned kill arthur and cause Lyanna's suicide... according to Dayne-family history, he knocked up their wetnurse. The latter is not exactly unheard of, nor dishonorable.
But taken together, these do make for an odd way to earn the respect of House Dayne.
• Ned is excited when he hears that Robert is coming to Winterfell, which is odd if he was afraid that Robert might notice he was raising Rhaegar's son
I never noticed this one before.
Still making my way through the post, Mark. Much food for thought here.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I'm not saying the mother question isn't important, simply nowhere near as important as they make it out to be.
You're probably right but as the resident devil's advocate I feel the need to point out that GRRM could be the one bullshitting, downplaying the importance of the mother question as opposed to D&D playing it up. Now that I think about it, I have seen an interview with D&D (Oxford union, I think) where they did say that GRRM asked them lots of questions but that the final one was about Jon's mum. Shit, for all we know they answered wrong and GRRM, all happy with himself that he'd fooled them, allowed them to go ahead with the show knowing it would be a fucking superb red herring and would preserve his own mystery
If I may, a question. Is there any point in the books where Ned thinks to himself that Jon is his son? I don't mean if he says it to anybody, I mean does he ever reflect on his "son" Jon?
No, but Ned does think that Jon is a bastard. He doesn't think that he's his bastard, but he does reflect on Jon's bastardy.
There is this, Eddard XII AGOT:
"My son Bran …"
To her credit, Cersei did not look away. "He saw us. You love your children, do you not?"
Robert had asked him the very same question, the morning of the melee. He gave her the same answer. "With all my heart."
"No less do I love mine."
Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would.
While Ned does not name Jon his son, he does seem to weigh Jon as if he were when weighing Cersei's motive to harm Bran.
Also, y'all really need to remember that none of this actually happened If George wants Jon's parents to be Patchface & Old Nan then that's the reality of the situation. I have to ask voice, you genuinely believe that Arthur Dayne, The Sword of the Morning, the greatest and most chivalrous knight in Westeros was tapping the 14yr old daughter of the Lord of Winterfell? A girl promised to the mighty Lord of Storm's End? I find that as unplausible as you find Rhaegar doing the same. Somebody was naughty, it remains to be seen who.
Agreed on all points. I find myself asking the same questions about Arthur. While Jon as SotM has much appeal for my pet theories, Arthur+Lyanna suffers from some of the same holes as Rhaegar+Lyanna. Chief among them, is that such a theory neglects Lyanna's own character/convictions/etc.
In truth, I have no real preference for Jon's parents, as I think Jon was born at Starfall. Being born at Starfall, as well as nourished with milk from Starfall, will hopefully be enough for Jon to claim the milkglass blade long enough to return it to Brandon the Builder.
Arthur+Lyanna makes sense of certain symbols (the blue flower growing from the chink in a wall of ice) and motifs (the seduction of Sworn Brothers), but different roads can lead to the same castle, and Jon's milk-castle is Starfall. His heart-castle is Winterfell.
But alas to answer your question no, I'm not at all married to the idea of Arthur. I'm much more concerned with Arthur v Eddard than I am with Arthur + Lyanna. And I quite agree that Arthur+Lyanna doesn't make much more sense than Rhaegar+Lyanna.
Rhaegar would be cool for dragons and fire and whatnot, but bad for the realm in my opinion. Targaryens are not saviors, they are fire and blood. But I would be cool with Jon being Rhae's kid. Howland Reed would also be a cool father for Jon, as would Robert Baratheon.
What matters, for Jon, is Winterfell, Winter, and the Wall, and his Stark-ness is what gives him root. He doesn't require much else, imo.
If we are playing favorites, my preference is that Jon would be the son of Eddard and Ashara to better explain House Dayne's loyalties, or Eddard and Wylla, to better explain House Dayne's loyalties and Jon being dark were Robb was fair (assuming Wylla is a dusky woman).
My fear, is that Jon is actually the son of Eddard + Lyanna. It would explain by far the most. I should probably write that one up. Benjen + Lyanna would explain a few things too.
Finally we have the (some might say) pernicious visage of David & Dan rearing their heads. That story about them buying George a cheeseburger & him asking them who Jon Snow's mother was, that can't be ignored. Now for all I know they said "Wylla" and that was correct but the way in which they speak about it leads me to believe they were quite smug & pleased with themselves, that suggests a more hidden origin.
I very much agree. Much emphasis is placed on Jon's mother. Jon himself asks this question repeatedly, as do other characters. We are certainly supposed to wonder who Jon's mother might be. Jon even questions if he isn't Ned's son in ACOK:
He raised Longclaw over his head, both hands tight around the grip. One cut, with all my weight behind it. He could give her a quick clean death, at least. He was his father's son. Wasn't he? Wasn't he?
So we are certainly supposed to wonder about Jon's parentage.
kingmonkey has argued that this mystery is presented in a subtle way, but I disagree. It is very explicit. In the passage above, we have asking the question himself.
Also explicit in the text, are statements that Rhaegar abducted, raped, and loved his lady Lyanna.
So the question is not subtle, and neither are the dots connecting Rhaegar+Lyanna.
What are subtle, and of great interest to me, are the discrepancies in the idea of Lyanna loving Rhaegar or wanting a child from a man who kept to more than one bed.
What kind of husband steals a 14 year old girl because his wife gets sick?
What kind of 14 year old girl falls in love with a man who leaves his wife because she can't handle prophecy-level sex?
So I think it is a bit of nuanced writing, hidden in plain sight, that these behaviors do not fit Rhaegar nor Lyanna.
I'm about 90% that RLJ but I have a place in my heart for ALJ just because voice, argues it so passionately. I kind of want it to be true just to see the victory lap he would take around the internet One thing I'll add is that I don't reckon GRRM had decided who Jon's father was until about book 3. I think he knew that Lyanna was his mother but he left his options open with the other parent.
LOL! thanks man, I appreciate that.
For me, the victory is this my friend. Good conversation. I don't need GRRM to canonize our ideas in order to appreciate them.
Rhaegar is still an interesting pick and would be AWESOME. It's a popular theory for a reason. But in all sincerity, Rhaegar is near the bottom of the pack in my list of likely candidates.
He's trending higher than Patchface, but not by much.
My fear, is that Jon is actually the son of Eddard + Lyanna. It would explain by far the most. I should probably write that one up. Benjen + Lyanna would explain a few things too.
Oh me & Wolfy went down that rabbit hole, I was actually convinced of it for a time. I feel like that stemmed from a general distrust of anyone presented as saintly as Ned is and also how understanding he is about Cersei & Jaime. Most folks would have lost their shit if they figured that out, Ned reacted pretty damn calmly.
Much emphasis is placed on Jon's mother. Jon himself asks this question repeatedly, as do other characters. We are certainly supposed to wonder who Jon's mother might be.
Oh most assuredly, the mother is the thing wherein we'll catch the image of a ... king? This is one of the more solid beliefs of mine with regard the story, it matters more who Jon's mother is because his father IS Ned. Whether it was Ned's sticky, white vanguard that laid siege to his mother's uterus or not. It's one of the main reasons why I personally would discount Wylla. Unless of course Wylla turns out to be one of Aerys' bastards like Jeyne Greystone from that god-awful video game they made. Shit, did I solve it? that pretty much resolves everything right? Lol, only joking (obv) but to return briefly to the point, the mother is the key.
He's trending higher than Patchface, but not by much.
pardon me for buttin' in, but where does that leave Moonboy?
As for Wylla: can one believe that Ned who was in love with Ashara, would have had an affair with the resident milk nurse at the same time? ... and then come back 9 months later to collect the offspring?
That would have to be one for 'things that make you go hmmm...'!
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
pardon me for buttin' in, but where does that leave Moonboy?
Moonboy is trending better than you'd expect.
Unlike Rhaegar, we have multiple POVs that suspect Moonboy slept with their highborn sister...
A Storm of Swords - Tyrion XI "You have not answered my question." "You poor stupid blind crippled fool. Must I spell every little thing out for you? Very well. Cersei is a lying whore, she's been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and probably Moon Boy for all I know. And I am the monster they all say I am. Yes, I killed your vile son." He made himself grin. It must have been a hideous sight to see, there in the torchlit gloom. Jaime turned without a word and walked away.
A Feast for Crows - Jaime I Ser Osmund shrugged. "They won't be missed. I'll wager they was part of it, along with the one who's gone missing." No, Jaime could have told him. Varys dosed their wine to make them sleep. "If so, we might have coaxed the truth from them." . . . she's been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and Moon Boy for all I know . . . "If I had a suspicious nature I might wonder why you were in such haste to make certain these two were never put to the question. Did you need to silence them to conceal your own part in this?" "Us?" Kettleblack choked on that. "All we done was what the queen commanded. On my word as your Sworn Brother."
A Dance with Dragons - Jaime I Past time this was ended, thought Jaime Lannister. With Riverrun now safely in Lannister hands, Raventree was the remnant of the Young Wolf's short-lived kingdom. Once it yielded, his work along the Trident would be done, and he would be free to return to King's Landing. To the king, he told himself, but another part of him whispered, to Cersei. He would have to face her, he supposed. Assuming the High Septon had not put her to death by the time he got back to the city. "Come at once," she had written, in the letter he'd had Peck burn at Riverrun. "Help me. Save me. I need you now as I have never needed you before. I love you. I love you. I love you. Come at once." Her need was real enough, Jaime did not doubt. As for the rest … she's been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and Moon Boy for all I know … Even if he had gone back, he could not hope to save her. She was guilty of every treason laid against her, and he was short a sword hand.
As for Wylla: can one believe that Ned who was in love with Ashara, would have had an affair with the resident milk nurse at the same time? ... and then come back 9 months later to collect the offspring?
That would have to be one for 'things that make you go hmmm...'!
It makes me say hmmm too, yet, Edric Dayne tells us that this is precisely the case:
“My lady?” Ned said at last. “You have a baseborn brother . . . Jon Snow?”
“He’s with the Night’s Watch on the Wall.” Maybe I should go to the Wall instead of Riverrun. Jon wouldn’t care who I killed or whether I brushed my hair . . . “Jon looks like me, even though he’s bastard-born. He used to muss my hair and call me ‘little sister.’” Arya missed Jon most of all. Just saying his name made her sad. “How do you know about Jon?”
“He is my milk brother.”
“Brother?” Arya did not understand. “But you’re from Dorne. How could you and Jon be blood?”
“Milk brothers. Not blood. My lady mother had no milk when I was little, so Wylla had to nurse me.”
Arya was lost. “Who’s Wylla?”
“Jon Snow’s mother. He never told you? She’s served us for years and years. Since before I was born.”
“Jon never knew his mother. Not even her name.” Arya gave Ned a wary look. “You know her? Truly?” Is he making mock of me? “If you lie I’ll punch your face.”
“Wylla was my wetnurse,” he repeated solemnly. “I swear it on the honor of my House.”
“You have a House?” That was stupid; he was a squire, of course he had a House. “Who are you?”
“My lady?” Ned looked embarrassed. “I’m Edric Dayne, the . . . the Lord of Starfall.”
Behind them, Gendry groaned. “Lords and ladies,” he proclaimed in a disgusted tone. Arya plucked a withered crabapple off a passing branch and whipped it at him, bouncing it off his thick bull head. “Ow,” he said. “That hurt.” He felt the skin above his eye. “What kind of lady throws crabapples at people?”
“The bad kind,” said Arya, suddenly contrite. She turned back to Ned. “I’m sorry I didn’t know who you were. My lord.”
“The fault is mine, my lady.” He was very polite.
Jon has a mother. Wylla, her name is Wylla. She would need to remember so she could tell him, the next time she saw him. She wondered if he would still call her “little sister.” I’m not so little anymore. He’d have to call me something else. Maybe once she got to Riverrun she could write Jon a letter and tell him what Ned Dayne had said. “There was an Arthur Dayne,” she remembered. “The one they called the Sword of the Morning.”
“My father was Ser Arthur’s elder brother. Lady Ashara was my aunt. I never knew her, though. She threw herself into the sea from atop the Palestone Sword before I was born.”
“Why would she do that?” said Arya, startled.
Ned looked wary. Maybe he was afraid that she was going to throw something at him. “Your lord father never spoke of her?” he said. “The Lady Ashara Dayne, of Starfall?”
“No. Did he know her?”
“Before Robert was king. She met your father and his brothers at Harrenhal, during the year of the false spring.”
“Oh.” Arya did not know what else to say. “Why did she jump in the sea, though?”
“Her heart was broken.”
Sansa would have sighed and shed a tear for true love, but Arya just thought it was stupid. She couldn’t say that to Ned, though, not about his own aunt. “Did someone break it?”
He hesitated. “Perhaps it’s not my place . . .”
“Tell me.”
He looked at her uncomfortably. “My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal—”
“That’s not so. He loved my lady mother.”
“I’m sure he did, my lady, but—”
“She was the only one he loved.”
“He must have found that bastard under a cabbage leaf, then,” Gendry said behind them.
Arya wished she had another crabapple to bounce off his face. “My father had honor,” she said angrily. “And we weren’t talking to you anyway. Why don’t you go back to Stoney Sept and ring that girl’s stupid bells?”
Gendry ignored that. “At least your father raised his bastard, not like mine. I don’t even know my father’s name. Some smelly drunk, I’d wager, like the others my mother dragged home from the alehouse. Whenever she got mad at me, she’d say, ‘If your father was here, he’d beat you bloody.’ That’s all I know of him.” He spat. “Well, if he was here now, might be I’d beat him bloody. But he’s dead, I figure, and your father’s dead too, so what does it matter who he lay with?”
It mattered to Arya, though she could not have said why. Ned was trying to apologize for upsetting her, but she did not want to hear it. She pressed her heels into her horse and left them both. Anguy the Archer was riding a few yards ahead. When she caught up with him, she said, “Dornishmen lie, don’t they?”
“They’re famous for it.” The bowman grinned. “Of course, they say the same of us marchers, so there you are. What’s the trouble now? Ned’s a good lad . . .”
“He’s just a stupid liar.” Arya left the trail, leapt a rotten log and splashed across a streambed, ignoring the shouts of the outlaws behind her. They just want to tell me more lies. She thought about trying to get away from them, but there were too many and they knew these lands too well. What was the use of running if they caught you?
It was Harwin who rode up beside her, in the end. “Where do you think you’re going, milady? You shouldn’t run off. There are wolves in these woods, and worse things.”
“I’m not afraid,” she said. “That boy Ned said . . .”
“Aye, he told me. Lady Ashara Dayne. It’s an old tale, that one. I heard it once at Winterfell, when I was no older than you are now.” He took hold of her bridle firmly and turned her horse around. “I doubt there’s any truth to it. But if there is, what of it? When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there’s no stain on your father’s honor. There’s nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say? Words or kisses, maybe more, but where’s the harm in that? Spring had come, or so they thought, and neither one of them was pledged.”
And what's more, we actually know that Ned was gone for quite a while.
He left Winterfell, married Catelyn, knocked her up, fought in a war, left Robert and the dead dragonspawn in a cold rage, went to toj, went to Starfall, then returned to Winterfell after Catelyn and Robb had taken up residence. People often assume Robb was a baby, but "babes" can be nursed for many years... and we know Tully women do so.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
It makes me say hmmm too, yet, Edric Dayne tells us that this is precisely the case:
Edric says what he was told (see my comments further back on this thread). Just like Arya does not say what she was not told.
He was told of the romance etc and if the Daynes/Stark had wanted to keep any resulting offspring out of the public eye, they would have concocted the Wylla story. Edric was born years later, not a reliable witness!!
What also interests me is whether Wylla is the one who traveled with the baby and Ned all the way to WF, and IIRC was already there when Cat and Robb turned up.
And I do grant you that babies would have probably been nursed some years in those days. Actually, Rickon was only 3 at the start of the series, so he would have been just out of nursing and nappy, if at all.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
pardon me for buttin' in, but where does that leave Moonboy?
Moonboy is trending better than you'd expect.
Unlike Rhaegar, we have multiple POVs that suspect Moonboy slept with their highborn sister...
A Storm of Swords - Tyrion XI "You have not answered my question." "You poor stupid blind crippled fool. Must I spell every little thing out for you? Very well. Cersei is a lying whore, she's been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and probably Moon Boy for all I know. And I am the monster they all say I am. Yes, I killed your vile son." He made himself grin. It must have been a hideous sight to see, there in the torchlit gloom. Jaime turned without a word and walked away.
A Feast for Crows - Jaime I Ser Osmund shrugged. "They won't be missed. I'll wager they was part of it, along with the one who's gone missing." No, Jaime could have told him. Varys dosed their wine to make them sleep. "If so, we might have coaxed the truth from them." . . . she's been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and Moon Boy for all I know . . . "If I had a suspicious nature I might wonder why you were in such haste to make certain these two were never put to the question. Did you need to silence them to conceal your own part in this?" "Us?" Kettleblack choked on that. "All we done was what the queen commanded. On my word as your Sworn Brother."
A Dance with Dragons - Jaime I Past time this was ended, thought Jaime Lannister. With Riverrun now safely in Lannister hands, Raventree was the remnant of the Young Wolf's short-lived kingdom. Once it yielded, his work along the Trident would be done, and he would be free to return to King's Landing. To the king, he told himself, but another part of him whispered, to Cersei. He would have to face her, he supposed. Assuming the High Septon had not put her to death by the time he got back to the city. "Come at once," she had written, in the letter he'd had Peck burn at Riverrun. "Help me. Save me. I need you now as I have never needed you before. I love you. I love you. I love you. Come at once." Her need was real enough, Jaime did not doubt. As for the rest … she's been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and Moon Boy for all I know … Even if he had gone back, he could not hope to save her. She was guilty of every treason laid against her, and he was short a sword hand.
As for Wylla: can one believe that Ned who was in love with Ashara, would have had an affair with the resident milk nurse at the same time? ... and then come back 9 months later to collect the offspring?
That would have to be one for 'things that make you go hmmm...'!
It makes me say hmmm too, yet, Edric Dayne tells us that this is precisely the case:
“My lady?” Ned said at last. “You have a baseborn brother . . . Jon Snow?”
“He’s with the Night’s Watch on the Wall.” Maybe I should go to the Wall instead of Riverrun. Jon wouldn’t care who I killed or whether I brushed my hair . . . “Jon looks like me, even though he’s bastard-born. He used to muss my hair and call me ‘little sister.’” Arya missed Jon most of all. Just saying his name made her sad. “How do you know about Jon?”
“He is my milk brother.”
“Brother?” Arya did not understand. “But you’re from Dorne. How could you and Jon be blood?”
“Milk brothers. Not blood. My lady mother had no milk when I was little, so Wylla had to nurse me.”
Arya was lost. “Who’s Wylla?”
“Jon Snow’s mother. He never told you? She’s served us for years and years. Since before I was born.”
“Jon never knew his mother. Not even her name.” Arya gave Ned a wary look. “You know her? Truly?” Is he making mock of me? “If you lie I’ll punch your face.”
“Wylla was my wetnurse,” he repeated solemnly. “I swear it on the honor of my House.”
“You have a House?” That was stupid; he was a squire, of course he had a House. “Who are you?”
“My lady?” Ned looked embarrassed. “I’m Edric Dayne, the . . . the Lord of Starfall.”
Behind them, Gendry groaned. “Lords and ladies,” he proclaimed in a disgusted tone. Arya plucked a withered crabapple off a passing branch and whipped it at him, bouncing it off his thick bull head. “Ow,” he said. “That hurt.” He felt the skin above his eye. “What kind of lady throws crabapples at people?”
“The bad kind,” said Arya, suddenly contrite. She turned back to Ned. “I’m sorry I didn’t know who you were. My lord.”
“The fault is mine, my lady.” He was very polite.
Jon has a mother. Wylla, her name is Wylla. She would need to remember so she could tell him, the next time she saw him. She wondered if he would still call her “little sister.” I’m not so little anymore. He’d have to call me something else. Maybe once she got to Riverrun she could write Jon a letter and tell him what Ned Dayne had said. “There was an Arthur Dayne,” she remembered. “The one they called the Sword of the Morning.”
“My father was Ser Arthur’s elder brother. Lady Ashara was my aunt. I never knew her, though. She threw herself into the sea from atop the Palestone Sword before I was born.”
“Why would she do that?” said Arya, startled.
Ned looked wary. Maybe he was afraid that she was going to throw something at him. “Your lord father never spoke of her?” he said. “The Lady Ashara Dayne, of Starfall?”
“No. Did he know her?”
“Before Robert was king. She met your father and his brothers at Harrenhal, during the year of the false spring.”
“Oh.” Arya did not know what else to say. “Why did she jump in the sea, though?”
“Her heart was broken.”
Sansa would have sighed and shed a tear for true love, but Arya just thought it was stupid. She couldn’t say that to Ned, though, not about his own aunt. “Did someone break it?”
He hesitated. “Perhaps it’s not my place . . .”
“Tell me.”
He looked at her uncomfortably. “My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal—”
“That’s not so. He loved my lady mother.”
“I’m sure he did, my lady, but—”
“She was the only one he loved.”
“He must have found that bastard under a cabbage leaf, then,” Gendry said behind them.
Arya wished she had another crabapple to bounce off his face. “My father had honor,” she said angrily. “And we weren’t talking to you anyway. Why don’t you go back to Stoney Sept and ring that girl’s stupid bells?”
Gendry ignored that. “At least your father raised his bastard, not like mine. I don’t even know my father’s name. Some smelly drunk, I’d wager, like the others my mother dragged home from the alehouse. Whenever she got mad at me, she’d say, ‘If your father was here, he’d beat you bloody.’ That’s all I know of him.” He spat. “Well, if he was here now, might be I’d beat him bloody. But he’s dead, I figure, and your father’s dead too, so what does it matter who he lay with?”
It mattered to Arya, though she could not have said why. Ned was trying to apologize for upsetting her, but she did not want to hear it. She pressed her heels into her horse and left them both. Anguy the Archer was riding a few yards ahead. When she caught up with him, she said, “Dornishmen lie, don’t they?”
“They’re famous for it.” The bowman grinned. “Of course, they say the same of us marchers, so there you are. What’s the trouble now? Ned’s a good lad . . .”
“He’s just a stupid liar.” Arya left the trail, leapt a rotten log and splashed across a streambed, ignoring the shouts of the outlaws behind her. They just want to tell me more lies. She thought about trying to get away from them, but there were too many and they knew these lands too well. What was the use of running if they caught you?
It was Harwin who rode up beside her, in the end. “Where do you think you’re going, milady? You shouldn’t run off. There are wolves in these woods, and worse things.”
“I’m not afraid,” she said. “That boy Ned said . . .”
“Aye, he told me. Lady Ashara Dayne. It’s an old tale, that one. I heard it once at Winterfell, when I was no older than you are now.” He took hold of her bridle firmly and turned her horse around. “I doubt there’s any truth to it. But if there is, what of it? When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there’s no stain on your father’s honor. There’s nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say? Words or kisses, maybe more, but where’s the harm in that? Spring had come, or so they thought, and neither one of them was pledged.”
And what's more, we actually know that Ned was gone for quite a while.
He left Winterfell, married Catelyn, knocked her up, fought in a war, left Robert and the dead dragonspawn in a cold rage, went to toj, went to Starfall, then returned to Winterfell after Catelyn and Robb had taken up residence. People often assume Robb was a baby, but "babes" can be nursed for many years... and we know Tully women do so.
You forgot returning to KL and reconciling with Robert. Oh and checking the treasury.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
None taken. It stems from my earlier comment about the changing complexity of the books. We have a tendency to over analyze the story. It serves us well in the beginning but the longer we look at something for something the more complex we make it. Sometimes the simplest answer is the best answer.
Now this is a counterargument. kingmonkey and I went on for days hemming and hawing over Rhaegar's exclusion from bastard-siring behaviors in Ned's mind. Tons of exposition from the both of us. Never did he offer a counterargument that shut me up.
This one did... I've been focused on other scenarios for so long that I truly forgot that marriage was even an option. LOL
If Jon is legitimate that definitely solves the mystery of Ned's exclusion of Rhaegar from bastard-siring behavior.
Thanks. Jon has taken the role of being a bastard as part of who he is. Arya loves Jon fiercely and even when Sansa made the quip about Arya being a bastard too Arya got upset. I think it is very important to the story. Jon, Dany, fAegon - all grew up with less than the current lords and ladies. Hell, even Tyrion was treated as a lesser despite being the son of the most powerful man in Westeros. Their upbringing will be paramount to their ability to lead. They have compassion for the common man most of higher birth do not have.
I think that will also be the case with Bran, Arya & Sansa. They were forced out of their comfortable castles and lived and learned in ways that put them a shade more in touch with common folk.
2. Marriage pacts are sacred in the sight of gods and men. If Rhaegar had abducted and married his cousin's betrothed, that would still be a great dishonor upon houses Baratheon and Stark. And Rhaegar was supposed to have been an intelligent, considerate, dutiful man.
We know that princes are not above marriage pact protocol because Joffrey required absolution from the High Septon before he could end his betrothal to Sansa, and engage in a betrothal with Margaery Tyrell.
Therefore, in order for Rhaegar to avoid dishonoring Lyanna, the North, and the Stormlands, an annulment of Lyanna's betrothal would have been necessary. And we have nothing to suggest any annulment took place.
Since we don't know any of the conversations between Lyanna and Rhaeger we have to assume that anything was possible. If the marriage took place when Robert was injured they could have assumed he would or did die. One or the other could have lied. They could have been lied to. They could have considered the prophecy more paramount than the original arrangement. They could have been manipulated by an outside source (Tywin, BR, just about anyone that could gain something from their marriage). Lyanna would have been more inclined to seek the Old Gods approval. It could have been as simple as standing in front of the heart tree and since the OGs offered no objection they moved forward with the ceremony. The Ghost of Horn Hill (a CotF) could have been involved. The possibilities are practically endless.
IMO Rhaegar would not have wanted a bastard either. As a scholar he knew the issues that the Great Bastards caused.
So even if we give Rhaegar the benefit of the doubt, and assume he made the necessary arrangements that would allow a legitimate marriage to Lyanna Stark, we then have to reconcile Lyanna's own beliefs and convictions on these matters.
IMO there's only 2 conclusions we can draw from this memory: 1) Lyanna did not want to marry Robert bc of his fidelities; she valued duty over love. 2) Lyanna would not birth a bastard.
If we accept Lyanna as Jon's mother we should accept that she was married, even if we aren't sold on the husband being Rhaeger.
GRRM has stated that the Targaryens of old were able to break Seven Kingdoms' orthodoxy and practice polygamy due to the fact that they had dragons. Rhaegar had no dragon.
Rhaegar was the dragon. He was the only living Targaryen that could mend the realm. It's possible that his marriage with Lyanna was meant to do just that. Bring together North and South, Ice and Fire. GRRM is consistently trying to teach us that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
And if Jon's father is Rhaegar, that makes it all the more peculiar. Rhaegar supposedly stole his sister, his best friend's betrothed, and Ned to war to cast down the Rhaegar's house.
IMO Ned feels guilty for the state of the Targaryen House and his role in their downfall. It's this guilt and Jon that lead him to talk to Robert the way he does when Robert brings up assassinating Dany.
Ned has to put this away in his mind in order to move forward. He can't think of Rhaegar, he doesn't like to think of Lyanna, Brandon and Rickard. It's too painful.
"Kings are a rare sight in the north." Robert snorted. "More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!"
The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.
Edric says what he was told (see my comments further back on this thread). Just like Arya does not say what she was not told.
He was told of the romance etc and if the Daynes/Stark had wanted to keep any resulting offspring out of the public eye, they would have concocted the Wylla story. Edric was born years later, not a reliable witness!!
Agreed. But it is still an odd bit of testimony from Edric. He's called Ned. Another Ned supposedly killed his uncle and drove his aunt to suicide.
Either Edric is telling the truth, or his deceased father and living aunt were/are protecting Eddard.... now.... seventeen years later.
Edric has no cause to lie to Arya. Might he be repeating an old lie? Sure. But that does not change the fact that House Dayne is protecting House Stark.
All we need wonder, then, is if House Stark had also been protecting House Dayne for seventeen years.
What also interests me is whether Wylla is the one who traveled with the baby and Ned all the way to WF, and IIRC was already there when Cat and Robb turned up.
And I do grant you that babies would have probably been nursed some years in those days. Actually, Rickon was only 3 at the start of the series, so he would have been just out of nursing and nappy, if at all.
Yes, Jon and his wetnurse had taken up residence. Very interesting. It would be quite interesting if she were Wylla. If she were, why didn't she remain at Winterfell? Are wetnurses so sacred that they remain with a given house forever? I kinda hope so.
I think it is interesting that of all the children at Winterfell, Jon Snow was the one nursed with milk from Starfall. Unless Old Nan was lactating, it seems likely the rest were nursed by Cat herself.