Well said. I gathered some fresh sociological intel that I need to share with you guys that is relevant to this. Sorry for the tease, but I need a proper keyboard.
Type it out whenever you can--unless Direwolf Blitzer is right. In which case--good luck finding time to type.
I loved Bronn laughing in Dickons face about his name.
It does sound sadly like the old commercial for Head On--Apply Directly to the Forehead.
Dickon--his parents weren't thinking.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
I'm going to be pissed if this is true. How lame! Jaime is sunk to the bottom of a lake, next to a giant dragon, in the middle of a battlefield overrun with Dothraki. Many people just saw him attempt to kill the winning side's queen. How can he possibly get away??? Arrrgh!!
It sounds like there's a good chance it's true, given multiple sources.
And yes--it will be lame. Especially if Brienne ex Machina isn't the one to save him--at least they've "established" that "trope."
I thought the only purpose was to set up a plotpoint of Missendai and Greyworm being tired of fighting someone else's war in a not so distant future. Didn't read much into the bastard convo other than it contrasting Daenerys entitled-ness but your take is way better.
Ah! I should have been clearer--I do think the rest of the convo is tied directly to what you say.
But the part of the conversation about bastards--little reason to bring that up unless they are "normalizing" bastardy. In the episode after Davos declares Jon a "damn bastard."
Really seems like there's a good chance they are going with Martin's basic theme that "rightful rule" by birth and "legitimacy" are pointless constructs.
Exactly! If Dany does this, she is absolutely no better than Aerys! If this happens, but Jon still think's "she has a kind heart", then I think it's a huge lapse in the true character of Jon Snow, which is not in doubt in the books, but character that the show seems willing to gloss over, in order to tell their "love" story! Blech!
I think she has more of a conscience than Aerys--though I'm not sure if that makes her actions better or worse.
That said, my mad idea that Dany is being forced into a weird gestalt with Val--it might make the forced nature of their attraction fit. Not unlike the forced idiocy of Sansa's marrying Ramsay.
And Jon sees drop dead gorgeous Val as somewhat monstrous, too.
Will be interesting to see if they do anything with all of this--Jon was really upset over hanging Olly--at least he said so to Sansa.
Not sure he'll be happy at Dany's "kneel or die" approach.
It is possible that Bronn still has a role to play. Completely show only, but in the first season, Bronn admitted to Tyrion that he had been beyond the wall during their drinking game with Shea. They did not reveal if he was a wildling or in the Night's Watch. I assumed he was in the Night's Watch. Perhaps he will reveal something or at least convince Jaime the Night's King exists. Then again maybe he just saved Jaime because his gold was laying on the ground and he still wants his castle.
I'm loving this--that would actually be a potentially useful throwback!
Cool point about Bronn's North of the Wall experience...
Amen.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Here's what I think. Though I don't know if GRRM and D&D will do it. When Bran gets to Winterfell one of the first thing he tells everyone is that he needs to talk with Jon. Now Bran is tripping, as Samuel L Jackson would say, he tells Sansa she's beautiful the night she is married and raped, he knows that his sister is a psychopathic murderer who no only knows she has a kill list, but that she chopped an entire family up and baked them in a pie, which then he gave her a sharper knife than the one she had before. He also knows about Littlefinger, and yet barely acts like he cares. After all of this he still needs to talk with Jon... Why? I think that he needs to talk with Jon because he is the sane Targaryian, and he needs to stop Dany from destroying the realm.
On the bold--I think he's more interested in stopping the Night King--the game of thrones seems of little interest to Bran of the Rolling Throne.
But he could mean to tell Jon he's a sane Targ.
Or to tell Jon what he knows about defeating the Night King--which may have nothing to do with Targs.
Missendre said that her people chose Dany to be queen, and that if she wanted to Dany would give her a ship so she could go home. However, we are not seeing that side of Dany. So far it's bend the knee or you're my enemy, or bend the knee or die. Tyrion is the only reason why Jon isn't locked in a cell.
YUP! Dany's getting that her people chose her. Like Jon's people chose him.
But Jon's not then trying to conquer anyone else. Dany is--she hasn't learned her own lesson.
We now know that nothing can stop her and her 3 dragons. There is nothing out there with that much firepower. Makes me wonder if the Children didn't make the White Walkers to fight against the dragons, or that the Targaryians started to "domesticate" their dragons which led to their extinction because they were so dangerous.
1. Not sure "nothing can stop them"--Bronn's shot made it clear that if they had more scorpions, they could probably do a LOT of damage to those dragons.
And we know in book world that the dragons can be killed--the Dance of Dragons alone says that.
2. Interesting idea re: the Walkers--especially in light of some of the spoilers. Though I'm still on the mindset that the Walkers are the ice dragons--a form of nuclear weapon. And I wouldn't be surprised if this is the first time they've been in the same place at the same time.
3. Agree that the domestication of the dragons seems like it was NOT a good idea. It seems clearly tied to the Doom in the books.
Though not sure they'll do anything with it in the show.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Having watched this, I wish the episode ended with Jaime charging Dany and Drogon, spear levelled, Bronn seen charging in from the side, then the view switches to the smoke Tyrion couldn't see through as you hear the impact of Jaime's spear, screams from both Dany and Drogon, a burst of flame, and then a thud as something "big" hits the ground/water. Then it's all unclear who Jaime speared, whether Bronn made it in time, and whether Jaime, Dany, Bronn, their horses, or Drogon is what fell at the end, wounded or dead.
Cause right now we all know that Jaime and Bronn are going to survive, and Dany and Drogon got off scott free for letting their guards down in the middle of a battle. Narratively Jaime should've IMO completed his charge and speared whoever he was aiming for, for better or for worse for both sides, and the only reason he didn't is because the show needed to give Dany a win.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
That said, my mad idea that Dany is being forced into a weird gestalt with Val--it might make the forced nature of their attraction fit. Not unlike the forced idiocy of Sansa's marrying Ramsay.
And Jon sees drop dead gorgeous Val as somewhat monstrous, too.
Will be interesting to see if they do anything with all of this--Jon was really upset over hanging Olly--at least he said so to Sansa.
It is very possible the show is combining Dany and Val to form a love interest for Jon. However, I am not buying what they are selling, at this point anyway. Jon and Dany's interactions feel rather contrived to me.
Yes, there was a hard and sharp part of book Val, that Jon doesn't seem to shy from, but I am not sure if that equates to show Dany. Still, how Jon views her, might depend on Dany's actions after this battle with the Lannister's.
At this point, I see her actions as brutally torching those men, when they were clearly going to lose to the Dothraki, whether she had a dragon or not. And she did not give those men a chance before the battle to bend the knee (which show Dany is fooking obsessed with) and instead ambushed them, and then she burnt a large amount of the food stores. If I remember correctly, Aegon I gave his enemies a chance to support him, and if they failed, then he took action, whereas Dany react's first and attempts to smooth things over later. I would think Jon would think that behavior was brutal and stupid. But I guess we will have to see how the show writes her out of this corner.
I certainly agree that there seems to be much "forced idiocy" in the plot this season, and last.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
This. He seems to have a soft spot for those Lannister boys though. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I just had the tinfoiliest of tinfoil theories pop into my head. Bronn could conceivably be from Flea Bottom (even though he lacks that distinctive, Davos-like Flea Bottom accent, that we know ALL Flea Bottomers possess) and it's suspected that Tywin is the hand who built the tunnel to Chataya's right ? So obviously Bronn ois Tywin's bastard son !!! Why hadn't I seen it before...
It is possible that Bronn still has a role to play. Completely show only, but in the first season, Bronn admitted to Tyrion that he had been beyond the wall during their drinking game with Shea. They did not reveal if he was a wildling or in the Night's Watch. I assumed he was in the Night's Watch. Perhaps he will reveal something or at least convince Jaime the Night's King exists. Then again maybe he just saved Jaime because his gold was laying on the ground and he still wants his castle.
Bronn is pure fan service at this point. He outlived his usefulness and purpose on the show in Season 5 and should have been killed off long ago.
For instance, having the Dornish characters kill him off would have cemented Dorne as an actual threat to be invested in and taken seriously (because the audience didn't care whether Myrcella lived or died with how badly they wrote her--but they did care about Bronn) and would have spared us the "Bad Pussy" line.
Very cool idea. It might well have been. We did hear quite a bit about from him about not-kneeling. It would make sense if Jon absorbed some of that northern pride.
Nice catch! Yes, it's very similar. Right down to the refusal to kneel - not for pride, but because his people would no longer follow him if he knelt for a southern ruler.
Jon is his own character of course, but I would like to see how his time spent with those in a leadership position continue to influence his decision-making process as a ruler. Let’s hope he learned some lessons from those interactions (positive or negative) and from his time as LC and finally applies them.
Jon is his own character of course, but I would like to see how his time spent with those in a leadership position continue to influence his decision-making process as a ruler. Let’s hope he learned some lessons from those interactions (positive or negative) and from his time as LC and finally applies them.
He definitely seems to have taken the "will of the people" stuff to heart. Dany hasn't. She has ascended to power by means of fire and blood, whereas Jon Snow won the popular vote.
And each seems to be placating their constituents. Jon's constituents are people, Dany's are dragons.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
And each seems to be placating their constituents. Jon's constituents are people, Dany's are dragons.
i think there is a difference in location. For Dany, who built up her following in Essos, she wasn't all fire and blud and bend the knee. She was a savior, a beacon of hope in an unjust world. now that she's come to Westeros, she's all set on what is her's by rights of a dynasty twice removed from the throne (Baratheons and now Lannisters), and i think there is a difference in how Dany herself acted on the two continents. Now that she's in Westeros, its all "Bend the knee, Bend the knee, its mine by rights"... that doesn't have the same appeal as the Myhsa who is coming to stop oppression. Tyrion and Varys have not done a very good propaganda job for Dany in Westeros if Cersei is able to use "Mad King's Daughter and foreign invader" as valid rallying cries to Westeros... Cersei just used wildfire on the sept and took out the lord paramount of the reach's entire line, yet foreign invader and Mad King's daughter is enough to get the people in the streets cheering for her? like, for realz?!?
That said, i'm perfectly fine with Dany unleashing Drogon on the Lannister army. pulling a harrenhall on the red keep really doesn't help her, as her goal is to rule the 7 kingdoms, not burn it all down and rebuild it, but she had to unleash her military power as a show of force after losing her only Westerosi support bases (Dorne and Olenna), and using the Dothraki and dragonfire against a military target is completely justified (unless you want to argue that only Lannisters can be an aggressor, in which case, fuck off). She's got a dark streak in her (i'd expect nothing less from Drogo's Khaleesi), but she's not interested in making people suffer, i see this more as a negative consequence of some of her rash actions. Now, things turn south for her in a couple more scenarios, and i could see her becoming an ends justify the means type like the last occupant of Dragonstone (at least as Stannis was portrayed in the show anyway), and that would be a horrible sight to behold.
i think there is a difference in location. For Dany, who built up her following in Essos, she wasn't all fire and blud and bend the knee. She was a savior, a beacon of hope in an unjust world.
She certainly believes herself to be that, but I'm less certain. In the show, she torched the Khals and used her fireproof body to trick the naive Dothraki into following her.
In books and show, she abandoned Meereen when it was most vulnerable and under attack.
And, let us not forget that her first act of salvation was treacherous. She agreed to pay for the Unsullied by giving the slave masters Drogon.
So while I agree she's freed many slaves, she's done so by stealing them and overthrowing the governments and economies of Essos. Slavery is an easy institution to hate, and I think that both HBO and GRRM have used it to hide the fact that Dany is a terrorist using weapons of mass destruction to take over the world.
now that she's come to Westeros, she's all set on what is her's by rights of a dynasty twice removed from the throne (Baratheons and now Lannisters), and i think there is a difference in how Dany herself acted on the two continents. Now that she's in Westeros, its all "Bend the knee, Bend the knee, its mine by rights"... that doesn't have the same appeal as the Myhsa who is coming to stop oppression.
Right.
So, as she did in Essos, she will simply conquer the Seven Kingdoms and take them by force.
What we saw in this episode was epic, but the *real* Daenerys is not limited by HBO's cgi budget, and her field of fire will be much greater.
Tyrion and Varys have not done a very good propaganda job for Dany in Westeros if Cersei is able to use "Mad King's Daughter and foreign invader" as valid rallying cries to Westeros... Cersei just used wildfire on the sept and took out the lord paramount of the reach's entire line, yet foreign invader and Mad King's daughter is enough to get the people in the streets cheering for her? like, for realz?!?
Agreed. And this smacks of horrible writing. Cersei went full Mad Queen last season, and apparently the houses who lost nobles in her attack were okay with that.
Where we disagree, I suspect, is in the idea that Cersei is the 'only' Mad Queen in Westeros.
That said, i'm perfectly fine with Dany unleashing Drogon on the Lannister army. pulling a harrenhall on the red keep really doesn't help her, as her goal is to rule the 7 kingdoms, not burn it all down and rebuild it, but she had to unleash her military power as a show of force after losing her only Westerosi support bases (Dorne and Olenna), and using the Dothraki and dragonfire against a military target is completely justified (unless you want to argue that only Lannisters can be an aggressor, in which case, fuck off).
I think you're forgetting this
The Red Keep is fubar'd, and that roof didn't melt from snow.
But... the writers might have fogotten this scene too, so it's probably a moot point.
She's got a dark streak in her (i'd expect nothing less from Drogo's Khaleesi), but she's not interested in making people suffer, i see this more as a negative consequence of some of her rash actions. Now, things turn south for her in a couple more scenarios, and i could see her becoming an ends justify the means type like the last occupant of Dragonstone (at least as Stannis was portrayed in the show anyway), and that would be a horrible sight to behold.
She's a dragon. It's not a dark streak, it's fire and blood in the flesh! Dany is not a victim of her circumstances, she's the conqueror imposing her will upon the world.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."