1.2 Catelyn

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1.2 Catelyn Sept 23, 2017 19:30:45 GMT via Tapatalk

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Post by voice on Sept 23, 2017 19:30:45 GMT

Sept 23, 2017 19:06:51 GMT lynn said:

Sept 23, 2017 19:05:38 GMT voice said:

The reader isn't looking for bastards, Ned is. This isn't a case of reader-bias, it is a case of what GRRM wrote.

Only Cersei and the reader are aware that Robert has 16 bastards.

Sure. And we readers also learn from Ned that Robert's bastards have black hair. Ned even reflects upon the bastards of Robert's he's seen, and compares them. That's a pretty important contribution that the reader receives from his POV: All of them have black hair.

Given Ned's familiarity with Robert's bastards, as well as his familiarity with his own recessive trait bearing children, it would undermine the entire process of his discovery if Ned knew Jon was Robert's son.

There are things to like about Robert+Lyanna, and I'll be pointing quite a few out in Jon's chapters, but Jon's coloring is one area where I don't think we'll be able to agree. Every theory has its weaknesses, and this is where Robert+Lyanna is weakest, imo.

"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."

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1.2 Catelyn Sept 23, 2017 19:35:24 GMT DarkSister1001 likes this

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Post by lynn on Sept 23, 2017 19:35:24 GMT

Sept 23, 2017 19:30:45 GMT voice said:

Sure. And we readers also learn from Ned that Robert's bastards have black hair. Ned even reflects upon the bastards of Robert's he's seen, and compares them. That's a pretty important contribution that the reader receives from his POV: All of them have black hair.

Known bastards have black hair and blue eyes. There are still 9 bastards missing. Sorry, the seed is strong argument isn't about Robert's sperm count or his black-haired blue-eyed bastards. It's about the Starks including Jon.

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1.2 Catelyn Sept 23, 2017 20:09:08 GMT via Tapatalk DarkSister1001 likes this

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Post by voice on Sept 23, 2017 20:09:08 GMT

Sept 23, 2017 19:35:24 GMT lynn said:

Sept 23, 2017 19:30:45 GMT voice said:

Sure. And we readers also learn from Ned that Robert's bastards have black hair. Ned even reflects upon the bastards of Robert's he's seen, and compares them. That's a pretty important contribution that the reader receives from his POV: All of them have black hair.

Known bastards have black hair and blue eyes. There are still 9 bastards missing. Sorry, the seed is strong argument isn't about Robert's sperm count or his black-haired blue-eyed bastards. It's about the Starks including Jon.

I'm not talking about the "seed is strong" quote.

I'm talking about the text that tells us in no uncertain terms that Baratheon 'black of hair' is a dominant trait, and the text that tells us in no uncertain terms that Stark-coloring is not.

"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."

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1.2 Catelyn Sept 23, 2017 21:04:29 GMT DarkSister1001 likes this

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Post by lynn on Sept 23, 2017 21:04:29 GMT

Sept 23, 2017 20:43:13 GMT voice said:

I'm talking about the text that tells us in no uncertain terms that Baratheon 'black of hair' is a dominant trait, and the text that tells us in no uncertain terms that Stark-coloring is not.

It tells us nothing about the other nine bastards. There is nothing certain about it. We only know for certain that 5 of Robert's bastards had black hair and blue eyes. We don't have a description of the twins that Cersei had killed. I think it is more unlikely 16 kids by the same father and various women would all have black hair and blue eyes.

Last Edit: Sept 23, 2017 21:18:34 GMT by lynn

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1.2 Catelyn Sept 23, 2017 21:19:35 GMT via Tapatalk DarkSister1001 likes this

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Post by voice on Sept 23, 2017 21:19:35 GMT

Sept 23, 2017 21:04:29 GMT lynn said:

Sept 23, 2017 20:43:13 GMT voice said:

I'm talking about the text that tells us in no uncertain terms that Baratheon 'black of hair' is a dominant trait, and the text that tells us in no uncertain terms that Stark-coloring is not.

It tells us nothing about the other nine bastards. There is nothing certain about it.

It told Ned enough to confront Cersei about Robert's three golden-haired children.

"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."

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1.2 Catelyn Sept 23, 2017 21:28:10 GMT via Tapatalk DarkSister1001 likes this

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Post by voice on Sept 23, 2017 21:28:10 GMT

One might say that was the entire point of the methodical process of revealing that Baratheon black is dominant, lynn. Because, well, it was.

Hair color is a definitive proof that was applied by Jon's father when attempting to determine whether or not bastard children are Robert's.

"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."

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1.2 Catelyn Sept 23, 2017 22:40:16 GMT DarkSister1001 likes this

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Post by lynn on Sept 23, 2017 22:40:16 GMT

Sept 23, 2017 21:28:10 GMT voice said:

One might say that was the entire point of the methodical process of revealing that Baratheon black is dominant, lynn . Because, well, it was.

Hair color is a definitive proof that was applied by Jon's father when attempting to determine whether or not bastard children are Robert's.

Not buying it Voice. Robert must have magical genes to produce 16 black haired, blue-eyed babies. Eleven of which we don't know about. I don't think it's a coincidence that Littlefinger has managed to get hold of the Targaryen tapestries with the only known portraits of the lineage. Or that Littlefinger would be familiar with the contents of the Book of Lineages and keep only blue-eyed black haired babies born in the brothels.

Last Edit: Sept 23, 2017 22:46:53 GMT by lynn

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1.2 Catelyn Sept 23, 2017 23:01:30 GMT DarkSister1001 and stdaga like this

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Post by voice on Sept 23, 2017 23:01:30 GMT

Sept 23, 2017 22:44:26 GMT lynn said:

Not buying it Voice. Robert must have magical genes to produce 16 black haired, blue-eyed babies. Eleven of which we don't know about.

Magic genes don't exist, but dominant and recessive ones do.

I'm not trying to sell you this, but you already bought it, from George:

The seed is strong, Jon Arryn had cried on his deathbed, and so it was. All those bastards, all with hair as black as night. Grand Maester Malleon recorded the last mating between stag and lion, some ninety years ago, when Tya Lannister wed Gowen Baratheon, third son of the reigning lord. Their only issue, an unnamed boy described in Malleon's tome as a large and lusty lad born with a full head of black hair, died in infancy. Thirty years before that a male Lannister had taken a Baratheon maid to wife. She had given him three daughters and a son, each black-haired. No matter how far back Ned searched in the brittle yellowed pages, always he found the gold yielding before the coal.

I'm truly surprised this is an issue of serious contention. Unlike the above, Stark-coloring is recessive. That's literally one of the first things we learn about them.

Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see. He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast.

Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she bore him. Somehow that made it worse. "Jon must go," she said now.

Ned and Cat have five trueborn children. Four of them have Tully-coloring, only Arya does not.

Thus, Stark coloring is a recessive trait. There are many complicated matters to consider with these parentage theories, but this one really is simple.

"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."

voice Administrator Absolution Bastard Posts: 9,520 Mini-Profile Theme: Example 2 Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Example 3 voice inherit Absolution Bastard Male Administrator 6 0 1 Apr 24, 2020 19:16:11 GMT 14,511 voice 9,520 Nightmare Moon Jul 22, 2015 20:02:17 GMT July 2015 Twitter voice Example 2 Example 3	1.2 Catelyn Sept 23, 2017 23:25:05 GMT via Tapatalk DarkSister1001 likes this Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by voice on Sept 23, 2017 23:25:05 GMT DarkSister1001... I feel like you're liking all these posts because you know that pretty soon I'm going to point out that Targaryen traits are recessive too, thus Jon's aren't a problem for RLJ. Lol
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1.2 Catelyn Sept 23, 2017 23:31:04 GMT via Tapatalk voice likes this

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Post by DarkSister1001 on Sept 23, 2017 23:31:04 GMT

Sept 23, 2017 23:25:05 GMT voice said:

DarkSister1001... I feel like you're liking all these posts because you know that pretty soon I'm going to point out that Targaryen traits are recessive too, thus Jon's aren't a problem for RLJ. Lol

Mayhaps.

Actually, you're both making good points but I wanted to wait til we get the that chapter bc I'm a little foggy on something.

Also, I was just getting ready to threaten you two with throwing creamed corn on y'all and watching you duke it out.

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1.2 Catelyn Sept 23, 2017 23:33:04 GMT DarkSister1001 likes this

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Post by lynn on Sept 23, 2017 23:33:04 GMT

Sept 23, 2017 23:25:05 GMT voice said:

Thus, Stark coloring is a recessive trait. There are many complicated matters to consider with these parentage theories, but this one really is simple.

I agree it's simple and I don't have any backup until Wolfmaid comes back. I'm prepared to die on this sword, alone if I have to.

AND THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH MY EYES.

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1.2 Catelyn Sept 23, 2017 23:56:20 GMT via Tapatalk DarkSister1001 likes this

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Post by voice on Sept 23, 2017 23:56:20 GMT

Sept 23, 2017 23:31:04 GMT DarkSister1001 said:

Sept 23, 2017 23:25:05 GMT voice said:

DarkSister1001... I feel like you're liking all these posts because you know that pretty soon I'm going to point out that Targaryen traits are recessive too, thus Jon's aren't a problem for RLJ. Lol

Mayhaps.

Actually, you're both making good points but I wanted to wait til we get the that chapter bc I'm a little foggy on something.

Also, I was just getting ready to threaten you two with throwing creamed corn on y'all and watching you duke it out.

LOL yeah, we're talking more about that Eddard chapter than we are Cat I! Not cool.

Mrs Voice is feeling under the weather today so I'm reading while taking care of her. I'm almost to Dany.

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1.2 Catelyn Sept 24, 2017 0:02:40 GMT via Tapatalk Nyx and DarkSister1001 like this

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Post by voice on Sept 24, 2017 0:02:40 GMT

Sept 23, 2017 23:33:04 GMT lynn said:

Sept 23, 2017 23:25:05 GMT voice said:

Thus, Stark coloring is a recessive trait. There are many complicated matters to consider with these parentage theories, but this one really is simple.

I agree it's simple and I don't have any backup until Wolfmaid comes back. I'm prepared to die on this sword, alone if I have to.

AND THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH MY EYES.

Sheath your sword, m'lady! What do we say to the god of death??

I still like Robert+Lyanna, and you'll like my notes in Jon I a lot more than this gene convo.

"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."

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1.2 Catelyn Sept 24, 2017 0:33:49 GMT voice and DarkSister1001 like this

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Post by lynn on Sept 24, 2017 0:33:49 GMT

Sept 24, 2017 0:02:40 GMT voice said:

I still like Robert+Lyanna, and you'll like my notes in Jon I a lot more than this gene convo.

I apologize. It's really Wolfmaid's theory and I'm inclined to support her. If Robert is Jon's father, a number of other things fall into place. It means that Markg is right all along and Dany is older than we've been led to believe as well. It means Kinglittlefinger is also correct about the tourney of Harrenhall and Aegon is probably Rhaegar's son and Dany is probably Rhaegar's daughter. All the things that drive people crazy over at W because RLJ is canon.

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1.2 Catelyn Sept 24, 2017 0:43:54 GMT via Tapatalk DarkSister1001 and lynn like this

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Post by voice on Sept 24, 2017 0:43:54 GMT

Sept 24, 2017 0:33:49 GMT lynn said:

Sept 24, 2017 0:02:40 GMT voice said:

I still like Robert+Lyanna, and you'll like my notes in Jon I a lot more than this gene convo.

I apologize. It's really Wolfmaid's theory and I'm inclined to support her. If Robert is Jon's father, a number of other things fall into place. It means that Markg is right all along and Dany is older than we've been led to believe as well. It means Kinglittlefinger is also correct about the tourney of Harrenhall and Aegon is probably Rhaegar's son and Dany is probably Rhaegar's daughter. All the things that drive people crazy over at W because RLJ is canon.

I'm clicking *like* for all the stuff after the apology. :cheers

No need to apologize for a passionate debate! It's been too long since we've had some here at the Hearth. It's stuff like this that really helps to flesh out ideas.

And if it's any consolation, I've been defending markg171's theory in much the same way over in the fDany thread. 🤓

P.S...

Had you taken the position that there's no way Jon could be Robert's son, I would have pointed out the many ways Jon emulates Robert. 😁

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Post by voice on Sept 23, 2017 19:30:45 GMT

Post by lynn on Sept 23, 2017 19:35:24 GMT

Post by voice on Sept 23, 2017 20:09:08 GMT

Post by lynn on Sept 23, 2017 21:04:29 GMT

Post by voice on Sept 23, 2017 21:19:35 GMT

Post by voice on Sept 23, 2017 21:28:10 GMT

Post by lynn on Sept 23, 2017 22:40:16 GMT

Post by voice on Sept 23, 2017 23:01:30 GMT

Post by voice on Sept 23, 2017 23:25:05 GMT

Post by DarkSister1001 on Sept 23, 2017 23:31:04 GMT

Post by lynn on Sept 23, 2017 23:33:04 GMT

Post by voice on Sept 23, 2017 23:56:20 GMT

Post by voice on Sept 24, 2017 0:02:40 GMT

Post by lynn on Sept 24, 2017 0:33:49 GMT

Post by voice on Sept 24, 2017 0:43:54 GMT