Post by stdaga on Oct 6, 2017 14:55:21 GMT
Oct 5, 2017 3:06:09 GMT lynn said:
Without getting too far into this debate again; Varys doesn't say whether the 8th bastard is black haired or blue eyed. Being sent to the wall would be ill-omened. I imagine that if your mother dies while giving birth, that would ill-omened. Curiously when Arya meets Bella who claims to be Robert's bastard; Arya compares Bella and Gendry but only comments on her hair color. So no blue eyes then.Oct 5, 2017 3:06:09 GMT lynn said:
If Varys knows of 8 bastards then either Bella is one of them or there are two bastards we don't know about. Which brings twins back on the table. LOL It does state no where in the text that Bella has blue eyes, so that is my mistake. The mind plays funny tricks. I have to say I am not sure that Bella is even one of Robert's children, although Arya thinks her hair is the same as the old kings. It is a rather smart ploy for the brothel to use, to bring in customers for Bella. Whether Bella is Robert's or not, I also think part of the reason it is in the text is to tease the idea of incest between siblings if the siblings are unaware they are siblings. We really don't know that Gendry didn't ring Bella's bells, even though he denies it. So, it's a tease at more possible sibling incest in our story.
As for hair color, an interesting quote that used up thread is in regards to the bastards that Varys is aware of.
"He fathered eight, to the best of my knowing," Varys said as he wrestled with the saddle. "Their mothers were copper and honey, chestnut and butter, yet the babes were all black as ravens . . . and as ill-omened, it would seem. So when Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen slid out between your sister's thighs, each as golden as the sun, the truth was not hard to glimpse." ACOK-Tyrion III
In regards to the mother's of Robert's bastards, Varys names them copper, honey, chestnut and butter. So two blondish shades and two reddish shades. Now, Lyanna could have had any of those hair colors, but Ned does compare her looks to Arya, so I suspect Lyanna had the dark hair of the Starks. But she might not have, I admit. She could be chestnut haired, which to me is a reddish brown.
So, if Jon (and Meera, if that is the twins implication) are Robert's by Lyanna, I don't think that Varys is aware. Only because I think Lyanna had dark hair do I rule out that Varys knew her to be a mother to any of Robert's bastards. Or he might know she was, and her hair is either classified as copper, honey, chestnut and butter. It almost makes sense that Lyanna's hair is a lighter shade because that is what Robert seems drawn too.
So, if Varys does not know about Jon, who are the other bastards he knows about? There is one other if he knows about Bella, but that leaves two if he is unaware of Bella, or Bella is not Robert's.
Also, Ben discussed these things with Mormont and Quorin. Did he also mention it to Ned? I've seen differing oppinions of what their relationship is like, but as he uses just Ben in Cat I instead of Benjen, I think there was little animosity.
He's a bit of an enigma, our dear Ned!
The relationship between Ned and Benjen is interesting. It seems left vague for a reason. The show portrays a hug at Winterfell and hints at a talk, but that is all left in the dark as far as the book goes. Ned seems excited for word to be sent to Benjen at the wall so he can come for Robert's visit. I would give a pretty penny to know what the conversation Ned had with Benjen about Jon going to the wall, because it seems like Benjen might not have been entirely on board about that idea. Ned thought Jon was too young, but made the decision anyway. Maybe it's all a matter of age for Benjen, as well. But I also think that Benjen seen more the the reality of how manipulating Cat was to Ned, while Ned was either blind to it, or ignored it to have some semblance of peace in his household.
I think one of the reasons I like to think that Benjen is still alive is because he has information to impart to the reader; information about Jon, about Lyanna, about Ned, maybe about Brandon and Rickard and Lyarra, about Harrenhal, about the Stark's role in the north and north of the wall, etc.
Could it be that Ned didn't actually hide Jon at all? In almost every parentage theory, there ends up being a discussion of why he needs to hide Jon. Simply not telling him or anyone else who his mother was is something quite different. And very effective I might add. He did luck out in Jon being so Stark (or was it luck at all? ), so no problem there. Keeping his mum about his mother, keeps the identity of his father hidden as well automatically.
Yes, it is the readers's assumption that Ned was hiding Jon away in the north. Ned gives us good reasons why he didn't feel like Jon would be accepted at court in the south (although we later do see bastards having some acceptance and holding positions at court, like Aurane Waters), but as for the north, the people of the north seem well aware of Jon and his role in Eddards life. Ned certainly raised Jon as his son, and was only mum, as you say, about the mother. I, of course, speculate that is because Jon is the son of Lyanna and a Stark sibling that Ned left the mother out of the details, because that is probably not going to be generally well accepted and might be too much for Jonno to bear, or for Ned to bear, in all honesty. We do know that Cat feels like bastards are not to be included in family life, and she does not even welcome the thought of Mya helping her up to the Eyrie, because Mya is a bastard, so her feelings on any bastards are well shown, and she turns that bitterness up to top notch when it comes to Ned's bastard.
By the way, where is that part of crowning Vicerys? I can't find it anywhere...
But seriously, with Aerys dead, hadn't Rhaella crowned Viserys King when they were on Dragonstone? I would think that should be somewhat important to the kingsguard, even if they hated Aerys, they certainly should have recognized the wishes of Rhaella, a queen of Targaryen blood!
This is an example of me writing my own canon. I thought that was stated somewhere in the text, but I cannot find it. All I can find is that when Rhaella fled to Dragonstone, Viserys was considered Aerys' heir. So, no crowning by Rhaella that I can find proof of. It still lives on the edge of my memory but I don't know why or what I am really thinking of. Sorry for the incorrect information.
However, it seems to imply that Rhaegar's children by Elia were not considered Aerys' heirs. Does that mean at some point they were disinherited, or that they were just bypassed in the succession? I have no idea.
Oct 5, 2017 3:06:09 GMT lynn said:
This puts me in mind of the show as well. Kit was asked to dye his hair black and when Ned is looking at the Book of Lineages; the Baratheons are black of hair only. So I wonder if they were anticipating a reveal in the next book which didn't materialize.Where is it stated that Kit was asked to dye his hair black? For my own knowledge. All I have ever found is that Kit was asked to wear a wig during the filming of the pilot episode and grow his own hair out, nothing about hair color. I suppose the information could have been redacted, but I have never stumbled across it. In the show, Mark Addy's hair just looks dark brown to me, not black at all, if that is the idea that they were trying to go for it doesn't really fit.
Oct 6, 2017 3:33:51 GMT voice said:
Still, not impossible. I think GRRM laid down the kingly language for Jon pretty heavily. He wants us to see it. And a lot of that language connects him to Robert. But yeah... the "black of hair" thing is pretty damning. All the theories have flaws though. I lean towards Starkcest right now, but I won't even pretend the timeline works in favor of it.
We see King and think of Robert because Robert was the king at the beginning of our story. But people can use this same idea to connect Jon to Rhaegar (who was supposed to be king) or Aerys (who was the deposed king) too. I honestly think that Ned could have been king after the rebellion, but he didn't want that role. Ned's role was in the north, but it was Eddard Stark that laid claim to the iron throne after he chased Jaime Lannister's golden ass off of it. There are king implications in Ned's story as well. King in the North, and maybe more.
The first time a Stark king is mentioned in the story, it is King Jon Stark. He is noted by Bran in the crypts.
He looked at the passing faces and the tales came back to him. The maester had told him the stories, and Old Nan had made them come alive. "That one is Jon Stark. When the sea raiders landed in the east, he drove them out and built the castle at White Harbor. His son was Rickard Stark, not my father's father but another Rickard, he took the Neck away from the Marsh King and married his daughter. Theon Stark's the real thin one with the long hair and the skinny beard. They called him the 'Hungry Wolf,' because he was always at war. That's a Brandon, the tall one with the dreamy face, he was Brandon the Shipwright, because he loved the sea. His tomb is empty. He tried to sail west across the Sunset Sea and was never seen again. His son was Brandon the Burner, because he put the torch to all his father's ships in grief. There's Rodrik Stark, who won Bear Island in a wrestling match and gave it to the Mormonts. And that's Torrhen Stark, the King Who Knelt. He was the last King in the North and the first Lord of Winterfell, after he yielded to Aegon the Conqueror. Oh, there, he's Cregan Stark. He fought with Prince Aemon once, and the Dragonknight said he'd never faced a finer swordsman." They were almost at the end now, and Bran felt a sadness creeping over him. "And there's my grandfather, Lord Rickard, who was beheaded by Mad King Aerys. His daughter Lyanna and his son Brandon are in the tombs beside him. Not me, another Brandon, my father's brother. They're not supposed to have statues, that's only for the lords and the kings, but my father loved them so much he had them done." AGOT-Bran VII
We get more about this King Jon Stark in Dance and the world book. It certainly brings our minds to kingship and Jon Snow as a king. But these references are all to a man who was either considered the King of Winter or the King in the North, depending on how far the title goes back. It does not reference a king of Weseteros, or any of the south lands. It references a warrior king who fought for and protected his people. I think there are lot's of hints that indicate who sit's the iron throne might not matter as much as who is the king that leads people in a time of trial and defends the people from a great threat. Is that warrior king Jon Snow, who could someday become Jon Stark? Maybe. The story could also be teasing us with that, but I do think it's very telling that the first Stark king we are introduced to is named Jon. It's not the story of Torrhen or Cregan, although we get those later, but the first is Jon. It's a clue, and not about who might sit the iron throne. I think the Iron Throne needs to be chucked into Blackwater bay and pummeled into nothing by the racing waters of the Rush!