No rush, but I didn't want to leave anyone hanging if you're ready for Cat I and waiting for me to post the thread.
Again, don't be shy! Feel free to create threads and polls, Rereaders!
I'm still on Bran I, myself. LOL It's just too beautiful a chapter to read quickly. Must take the time to appreciate every line... but... Cat I has the godswood ...
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I personally like Cat's chapters and the character as well. I know many hate her but I just think she's well written and pretty visceral in how she feels and acts.
I personally was always surprised how fearful she is around the Old Gods. She has a healthy respect for them and it is shocking to me that it is SHE of the faith of the Seven who believes Old Nan's tales:
”Beyond the Wall?” The thought made Catelyn shudder. Ned saw the dread on her face. “Mance Rayder is nothing for us to fear.” “There are darker things beyond the Wall.” She glanced behind her at the heart tree, the pale bark and red eyes, watching, listening, thinking its long slow thoughts.
Short chapter but packed full of info to set up the first book plot: religion, backstory on Bobby & Ned, Jon Arryn. I really enjoyed it.
Talking about playing with colors. You can notice how Martin uses white and red here in the weirwood trees. I know some noted on the other thread the use of red (fire), white (ice), black (Shaggydog, NW) etc.
Random thought: Isle of Faces has lots of weirwood trees with carved faces. I wonder how much of an importance this is. Lyanna would find that interesting for sure.
Aahhh! Catelyn! I don't love her but she gives us lot's of information.
This chapter is more of our introduction to the north from an outsiders POV, which we are. Yes, I think Cat is still an outsider after 15 years, she both feels it and knows it. We get the difference between the "cold" north and the "warm" south, in religion, in culture, in flora and fauna. We are introduced to Winterfell, to Ice, the godswood, to omens, to the connection the Stark's have to the Wall, to the idea of rebellion and kingship, wardship and friendship, families and places. We are introduced to many houses of the realm, Targaryen and Baratheon, Stark and Lannister, Arryn and Tully. We hear about Old Nan again, and we are introduced to the mystery of Jon Arryn's death. We sense Cat's fear of what is beyond the wall, and Ned's lack of worry about that, but we know from the prologue, she is probably very correct to worry about the "darker things" that are "beyond the wall". We get Ned's contemplation over the executed man, his sorrow over Jon Arryn but his gladness to see Robert Baratheon again, and a warning from his wife not to ruffle the pride of the lions. Oh, and we get a subtle denial of guest right, and a sexual and phallic look with Cat's admiration of her husbands cleansing of his great sword. It's a damn lot of information to process! And it's a short chapter!
As far as the parentage soup theories go, this chapter does not have a lot of that, as far as I can see. Maybe a bit. But it does not slap you in the face, it's subtle and you have to sift for it, like panning for gold dust. I am going to look at this from the angle of the children mentioned since the XYZ is almost nonexistent here. Ned asks Cat about "the children" and that will be my focus, although that might be CoF hints.
We get the weirwood, the heart tree, in all it's bone white and "blood-stained hands" red glory, and we feel on several occasions Catelyn's unease with the tree. The other thing we have been introduced to that is white and red in the story so far is the albino pup that Jon found in the snow. And I recognize Catelyn's unease toward Jon who is linked to that pup by her unease to the heart tree. It took me several times through, but now I can't see around it. The eyes of the weirwood follow her, but she tries to ignore them, just as she is aware of Jon's presence, and we will soon learn that she tries to ignore him, blanketing him from his family and Winterfell, as she blankets herself in the godswood. She comes from the south, where the weirwoods have all been cut down, and she would just as easily cut Jon out of her life and Neds. But she never directly thinks of Jon in this chapter, but it's there. Jon, whom we understand is Ned's son, but not hers.
I can easily interpret the first line in this chapter "Catelyn had never liked this godswood" to mean, Catelyn had never liked Jon. I see Jon tied directly to the godswood through his white and red wolf, just as the godswood is tied to the white and red weirwood heart tree!
In Bran I, we are introduced to Bran, Robb and Jon, and now in Cat I, we get the names of the other children, which should be a boy and two girls, if we were paying attention to Jon's words about the direwolf pups. Arya, Sansa, and Rickon. We are also introduced a bit to their personality with the descriptions of "in love", "charmed and gracious" and "afraid". I have always thought it's odd that the children's names are not mentioned in order of age. Arya is first, and that should let us know we need to pay attention to her.
If we didn't already think these Stark's are raised hard and fast, with adult responsibilities with fourteen year olds being "old hands at justice" and seven year old's witnessing executions, we are now told that a three-year old needs to face his fears because, drum roll please, Winter is Coming!!!
I see a connection in Ned to both Robb and Jon in a couple statements related to the execution. Ned tells Cat that the deserter "died well", and Robb had already told us in the last chapter, that "the deserter died bravely" and "he had courage, at least". But Ned also says, "the poor mad was half mad. Something put a fear in him so deep that my words could not reach him", and Jon had told us "It was not courage. This one was dead of fear. You could see it in his eyes". It's like these two boys are opposite sides of the same coin that is Ned Stark! It also allows me to think that Robb is the least perceptive, Jon the most, and Ned falls somewhere in the middle.
We are introduced to the idea of how strong the connection between a ward and the lord who fosters him can have, akin to parentage, maybe more. More so if Jon turns out not to be Ned's bio-son, because we know they are very alike. We have already meet Theon, who we have been told is a ward from Bran's POV. From Ned's POV, we will soon see that Theon is not just a ward. Of course, my tinfoil is that Ned might not have been either. I am trying to to jump a head, but it's hard not to make the connections when you recognize them.
Another concept that we are introduced to is that the King and Queen have children, and in the same exchange, we are told of the queen's brothers. We don's know it now, but we will come to learn that the queen's children have much more in common with her brother than the king. Another child we are introduced to in his chapter that might have questionable parentage is Robert Arryn.
Cat also believe in signs, and tells us that her husband does not. But we know his son Jon does. It is how he convinced Ned to let them keep the wolf pups. I think Jon knows Ned better than Catelyn does, in some respects, any way.
Since I mentioned Ned's smiles in the last chapter, which was elicited by his "pup" Bran, in this chapter Ned smiles twice, once when speaking of Old Nan, "a gentle smile" and once when finding that Robert was coming to Winterfell, darkness left his eyes and "a smile broke across his face". Otherwise, Ned is full of frowns and grimaces and grimness and formality. Sorry, I am trying to stick to XYZ, I swear!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Talking about playing with colors. You can notice how Martin uses white and red here in the weirwood trees. I know some noted on the other thread the use of red (fire), white (ice), black (Shaggydog, NW) etc.
Red, white and black (godswood pool, black moss) are the predominate color's mentioned in this chapter, but another color that stood out to me is green, which I will come to associate with Bran, as a greenseer. here Cat associates green with the sentinel tree's in the godswood, but also with the Green Men in the Isle of Faces, which you also mention with the colors of red and white. It seems a direct connection of the magic that is in Winterfell's godswood and the magic that is in the Isle of Faces.
I don't know how it connects to parentage theories but I like the overall connection to what will probably important to the endgame. I am having a hard time sticking to XYZ here!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
I can easily interpret the first line in this chapter "Catelyn had never liked this godswood" to mean, Catelyn had never liked Jon. I see Jon tied directly to the godswood through his white and red wolf, just as the godswood is tied to the white and red weirwood heart tree!
She intentionally turns her back to the weirwodd as she does to Jon.
If we didn't already think these Stark's are raised hard and fast, with adult responsibilities with fourteen year olds being "old hands at justice" and seven year old's witnessing executions, we are now told that a three-year old needs to face his fears because, drum roll please, Winter is Coming!!!
I actually laughed out loud reading this! After the drum roll of course.
I see a connection in Ned to both Robb and Jon in a couple statements related to the execution. Ned tells Cat that the deserter "died well", and Robb had already told us in the last chapter, that "the deserter died bravely" and "he had courage, at least". But Ned also says, "the poor mad was half mad. Something put a fear in him so deep that my words could not reach him", and Jon had told us "It was not courage. This one was dead of fear. You could see it in his eyes". It's like these two boys are opposite sides of the same coin that is Ned Stark! It also allows me to think that Robb is the least perceptive, Jon the most, and Ned falls somewhere in the middle.
Cat also believe in signs, and tells us that her husband does not. But we know his son Jon does. It is how he convinced Ned to let them keep the wolf pups. I think Jon knows Ned better than Catelyn does, in some respects, any way.
I think Ned shut down this part of himself after RR. I don't think he was as reseptive as Jon, but quite astute. Not versed in politics and the like, but observant. Cat does not know her husband very well, just superficially imo.
We are introduced to the idea of how strong the connection between a ward and the lord who fosters him can have, akin to parentage, maybe more. More so if Jon turns out not to be Ned's bio-son, because we know they are very alike. We have already meet Theon, who we have been told is a ward from Bran's POV. From Ned's POV, we will soon see that Theon is not just a ward. Of course, my tinfoil is that Ned might not have been either. I am trying to to jump a head, but it's hard not to make the connections when you recognize them
Speaking of Theon: he is described as ark like Jon and laughing like Robb in Bran I, which I found interesting. Not sure if or how it fits into anything...
Since I mentioned Ned's smiles in the last chapter, which was elicited by his "pup" Bran, in this chapter Ned smiles twice, once when speaking of Old Nan, "a gentle smile" and once when finding that Robert was coming to Winterfell, darkness left his eyes and "a smile broke across his face". Otherwise, Ned is full of frowns and grimaces and grimness and formality. Sorry, I am trying to stick to XYZ, I swear!
Red, white and black (godswood pool, black moss) are the predominate color's mentioned in this chapter, but another color that stood out to me is green, which I will come to associate with Bran, as a greenseer. here Cat associates green with the sentinel tree's in the godswood, but also with the Green Men in the Isle of Faces, which you also mention with the colors of red and white. It seems a direct connection of the magic that is in Winterfell's godswood and the magic that is in the Isle of Faces.
I don't know how it connects to parentage theories but I like the overall connection to what will probably important to the endgame.
Well, this made me think of Howland Reed. And he is involved somehow!
Post by freyfamilyreunion on Sept 22, 2017 12:51:01 GMT
This chapter does a good job of cementing Catelyn as an outsider at Winterfell. We also find out that because of her, for the first time, Winterfell has a sept to the seven. Which almost seems sacrilegious in retrospect.
But in regards to Jon's parentage, the most interesting thing I took from this chapter is this passage:
"Would that I could," Catelyn said. "The letter had other tidings. The king is riding to Winterfell to seek you out." It took Ned a moment to comprehend her words, but when the understanding came, the darkness left his eyes. "Robert is coming here?" When she nodded, a smile broke across his face.
Under the traditional RLJ analysis, Ned hides Jon's true identity to keep him safe from Robert, after he saw Rhaegar's other children slaughtered. Robert coming up to Winterfell should be an "oh shit" moment for Ned. But in fact the opposite is true.
This chapter does a good job of cementing Catelyn as an outsider at Winterfell. We also find out that because of her, for the first time, Winterfell has a sept to the seven. Which almost seems sacrilegious in retrospect.
But in regards to Jon's parentage, the most interesting thing I took from this chapter is this passage:
"Would that I could," Catelyn said. "The letter had other tidings. The king is riding to Winterfell to seek you out." It took Ned a moment to comprehend her words, but when the understanding came, the darkness left his eyes. "Robert is coming here?" When she nodded, a smile broke across his face.
Under the traditional RLJ analysis, Ned hides Jon's true identity to keep him safe from Robert, after he saw Rhaegar's other children slaughtered. Robert coming up to Winterfell should be an "oh shit" moment for Ned. But in fact the opposite is true.
Damn. I've never thought of that before.
And if I ever heard someone mention it, I must've forgotten.
This blows up quite a few scenarios, actually. RLJ has floated the idea that Ned is hiding and protecting Jon Snow from Robert Baratheon's hatred of dragonspawn for so long that that idea has become entrenched in the fandom. It is easy to accept at face value.
And that motive has seeped into other parentage theories as well. Damaging that motive gives us cause to seriously question many/most of them.
The 'hiding' of Jon Snow, from Robert, has been used to help explain:
...and, well, it basically damages the scenario of Any Guy + Lyanna. The assumption being, Lyanna's whereabouts during the time of conception might have given Robert reason to at least suspect Jon were the son of Rhaegar, if Ned revealed Lyanna was Jon's mother.
But yeah. Ned has just been told of the death of an adopted family member named "Jon" and is bummed out. Then he hears Robert is going to visit. That should definitely not be good news if he's hiding Jon from Robert.
If we remove that motive (the hiding of Jon Snow to protect him from Robert Baratheon) we see a much clearer and canonical picture of the mystery.
So, the question becomes, what other reasons might Ned have for his obfuscation?
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
But yeah. Ned has just been told of the death of an adopted family member named "Jon" and is bummed out. Then he hears Robert is going to visit. That should definitely not be good news if he's hiding Jon from Robert.
i disagree. The most dangerous time in hiding a son of Lyanna from Robert is at the beginning. ~15 years later the Ned is no longer worrying about the secret, it is buried safely behind the N+A and N+W pairings that Robert doesn't even question the Ned fathering a bastard. As such, hearing that his best friend is coming to visit after 5+ years (greyjoy rebellion last time they saw each other iirc) there is no need for the Ned to be concerned with his secret, and he uses his joy (not really the right word but i can't be assed to come up with the correct one) at reuniting with Robert to limp past his sadness at the passing of Jon Arryn. planning the feast and whatnot, keeping your mind on anything but the dead, standard coping mechanism to grief surrounding death of a loved one
If we remove that motive (the hiding of Jon Snow to protect him from Robert Baratheon) we see a much clearer and canonical picture of the mystery.
So, the question becomes, what other reasons might Ned have for his obfuscation?
i'd say that the motive is no longer in play because Jon's birth circumstances have already been answered to Bobby B's satisfaction, and the Ned has nothing to worry about. (edit: If Jon didn't look like the Ned's clone this motive may not have been removed, if puberty turned Jon into a silver haired, purple eyed youth of remarkable beauty that liked books and music then the Ned might sweat Bobby B's return)
conversely, what reasons would the Ned have to keep Jon, whom he knows Cat has a sever disliking bordering on hatred for, in Winterfell? It's not because he's Northern or a Stark, they ward sons (particularly bastards) just like any southerners, and this is what Cat expected the Ned to do. i can see no reason other than raising Jon in WF was one of the promises that he made sacrifices in order to keep...
Post by DarkSister1001 on Sept 22, 2017 19:30:49 GMT
stdaga hit on SO much! Just a few things I'd like to add/elaborate.
Catelyn had never lied this godswood
- EFF YOU CAT!
But I agree with ST that this setup it to show us how disconnected Cat is from the North.
This was a wood of stubborn* sentinel* trees armored* in grey*-green* needles, of mighty oaks* or ironwoods* as old as the realm itself.
1) The Starks, Ned in particular, are stubborn. 2) Sentinel = Protection 3) Armord = Protection 4) Grey = Stark 5) Green = Greenmen 6) Oak and iron guard me well 7) Ironwoods = Protection
"Where are the children? He would always ask her that.
Not many fathers would always ask that. He's obviously overly concerned with them. Is it bc he has lost siblings? Or bc of a promise?
The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.
So, the question becomes, what other reasons might Ned have for his obfuscation?
I agree with Tzaralan. Fifteen years is a long time and Jon is accepted as Ned's bastard. Although I do think Robert goes on a bit of fishing expedition when he asks Ned about Wylla later. I felt like Robert might have been checking the story to find out if Ned might let something slip. To me if felt like Robert was pretending that he didn't remember the details. Ned becomes very defensive then and Robert backs off. Nothing about Robert's obsession with Lyanna has diminished in the past fifteen years as Ned discovers when Robert goes to the crypts immediately on arrival. It sounds to me like they have had this conversation before and Robert can't quite believe that Ned would forget his 'honor'. So therefore, Wylla must have been some woman.
I agree with Tzaralan. Fifteen years is a long time and Jon is accepted as Ned's bastard. Although I do think Robert goes on a bit of fishing expedition when he asks Ned about Wylla later. I felt like Robert might have been checking the story to find out if Ned might let something slip. To me if felt like Robert was pretending that he didn't remember the details. Ned becomes very defensive then and Robert backs off. Nothing about Robert's obsession with Lyanna has diminished in the past fifteen years as Ned discovers when Robert goes to the crypts immediately on arrival. It sounds to me like they have had this conversation before and Robert can't quite believe that Ned would forget his 'honor'. So therefore, Wylla must have been some woman.
I'm on this train too!
The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.
I agree that fifteen years is plenty of time for Ned to not be nervous anymore about a cover story he told when Jon was a baby, but that wasn't freyfamilyreunion 's point.
It damages the protection motive because the argument has always been that Ned fears for Jon's safety – in the present tense. And, thus, must keep him hidden. And of course, if Ned has been hiding Rhaegar's son in Winterfell for fifteen years, this reasoning makes perfect sense.
For example, this passage is often cited as an example of Ned's RLJ predicament (Eddard IX spoilers):
"I will," Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them.
I think what freyfamilyreunion 's observation does, is strike down the argument within RLJ that Ned's fifteen-year-burden was one of protecting Jon from Robert. If Jon is Rhaegar's son, and Ned feels sworn to protect him, the reaction itself is what seems odd. Ned is a man-grown, pushing 40... and smiling with mirth when he hears the king is going to visit the place he's been committing treason by hiding the son of a very popular prince?
It would be different if Robert had seen Jon before, or regularly. Then I could understand Ned being comforted by this news. But this is Robert's first visit to Winterfell, and unless Ned brought young Jon along for the Greyjoy Rebellion, this is the first time anyone at court will lay eyes upon the boy. If R+L=J, this should definitely be cause for concern rather than joy.
Then there's the context. Ned was just given some very bad news, and is not feeling great about it. Seems odd that a surprise visit from Robert would calm Ned and restore his good spirits if he had been burdened with the weight of hiding Rhaegar's heir for the last fifteen years.
Post by DarkSister1001 on Sept 22, 2017 23:27:40 GMT
voice , I see the point but respectfully disagree. Despite their disagreement in KL all those years ago, Ned has always been Robert's man and brother. They grew up together. He's kept the secret so well that he knew there was no reason to worry. No one suspected Ned had lied, Jon didn't look like a Targ, and the only other person that could/would know can't even get a letter from Ned. His secret was safe and so was Jon. He was free to be happy to see his BFF.
ETA: If Jon had silver hair, loved to sing and played the harp Ned would be shitting his pants.
voice , I see the point but respectfully disagree. Despite their disagreement in KL all those years ago, Ned has always been Robert's man and brother. They grew up together.
His secret was safe and so was Jon. He was free to be happy to see his BFF.
I think we agree, actually. And this is what I find the reaction odd. Ned isn't exactly a difficult man to worry. That's pretty much his default reaction to everything. Dude is mopey af, and even shudders at the thought of Catelyn harming Jon Snow.
But here, Ned is able to enjoy exactly what you are describing. Reuniting with his brother from another mother.
He's kept the secret so well that he knew there was no reason to worry.
This assumes Ned is keeping it a secret, but yes. In the RLJ scenario, this is exactly what it seems to be. Ned is not at all bothered by the prospect of having Rhaegar's son around. He's used to it by now. I can totally dig that.
But there have been folks over the years who have argued that Ned fears for Jon's life, Catelyn's life, and the lives of their children, and that the source of this fear is Robert Baratheon's need to exterminate dragonspawn. It's not only a part of the original Rhaegar+Lyanna theory, it emerges quite a bit when folks argue on behalf of modern iterations of it...so much so, in fact, that it is accepted as a given.
Your reasoning makes much more sense to me than the hide-and-protect argument.
I would only add that we should keep in mind that Ned's reactions might also be explained (and at times, might even be better explained) by the alternative idea that Ned isn't hiding Rhaegar's son under Robert's nose. This alternative explanation is just as plausible for the reactions we see on the page.
For example, not only is Robert Ned's homie from the old hood, Robert killed Rhaegar with a hammer. Assuming Ned has just as much affection for Jon as he does for the man we are imagining killed Jon's father, this too gives me pause in Ned's reaction. This is why it struck me so hard when freyfamilyreunion pointed it out.
Sure Ned, Robert is a bro, but that solemn boy called you "Father" his entire life! You've watched him grow up. You've prayed for his wellbeing. You're way closer to him when you get this news than you are the buddy from your youth.
Speaking as a dad, I can't imagine feeling relief at the thought of welcoming the man who orphaned my adopted son, let alone letting him into the house, regardless of how close we ever were.
And if I had to welcome an old friend into my house who 1) killed my adopted son's father in battle, and 2) admired the bodies of my son's dead siblings, my first thoughts sure as hell wouldn't be:
"There must be a feast, of course, with singers, and Robert will want to hunt. I shall send Jory south with an honor guard to meet them on the kingsroad and escort them back. Gods, how are we going to feed them all? On his way already, you said? Damn the man. Damn his royal hide."
I understand Ned's reaction to Robert, as a guy with bros from the old neighborhood.
I do not understand it as a father with sons of my own.
ETA: If Jon had silver hair, loved to sing and played the harp Ned would be shitting his pants.
Here too, we agree, but this kinda opens another can of worms. I know you're joking about the singing and harp-playing, but why wouldn't Ned have come up with a cover story to explain Jon's appearance if his hair did grow silver or if his eyes did turn purple?
Ned is not only not-worried about the the royal court visiting Winterfell, he's never had need for a cover story that might explain Jon's apperance if he did develop any Targaryen traits.
Ned was able to bank on him looking like his own son from the time he was an infant, and was somehow able to be certain the claim would never be contradicted as Jon matured.
Last Edit: Sept 23, 2017 0:56:17 GMT by voice: Dornish keyboard
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."