Lol I haven't read the first two in a long time. I don't think they'll ban me if I start commenting on the actual chapter and things I forgot or missed or seem interesting besides RLJ here.
“Don’t fight in the North, or the South. Fight every battle everywhere. Always, in your mind.”
There is an odd detail that popped out on this read. I've been under the impression that Ned hasn't seen Robert in fifteen years, when in fact he saw him seven years ago.
"It will be good to see the children. The youngest was still sucking at the Lannister woman's teat the last time I saw him. He must be, what, five by now?"
"Prince Tommen is seven," she told him. "The same age as Bran. Please, Ned, guard your tongue. The Lannister woman is our queen, and her pride is said to grow with every passing year."
It is odd, and I tend to put it under Ned loosing all his family save one brother who then goes to the Wall. To jump ahead a bit, in KL he thinks of having even more children with Catelyn and there can be problems with too many heirs. And he is overly concerned with childrens safety at large imo.
I think this is interesting as well, especially because we see with the Tyrell family that too many heirs can be a problem to deal with. What to do with them all? Maybe make one a kingsguard? We know that was what Bran hoped to grow up to be. Ned and Cat have three legitimate sons, so the Stark line should be safe, but Ned (and Cat) think of more children. Now, I think from Cat's POV, the more children she has with Ned, the more it ties them together and also pad's her chance of her grandchildren inheriting Winterfell. And maybe Ned just likes kid's and wants a huge family, but I think it is something else. He might not know why, but he knows this world needs more Stark blood. Maybe he should have been fathering bastards all over the north like Bobby B was in the south!
If we saw our best friend support the brutal murders of young children and then adopted the little brother of those same dead children, we would probably want to keep him away from our crazy best friend.
I would like to keep them far clear from a person who wanted them dead. I always questioned this about RLJ as well. If Ned knew that Jon would be in danger from Robert's visit, then he had plenty of time to send Jon to a bannerman's holding for the duration of the visit. Ned let Jon stay at Winterfell.
However, I don't think that it was just Cat who kept Jon away from the King's party. Jon might not have been hidden, but he was separate, and not just at the feast. He also wasn't included in practicing at arms or going on the hunt the day of Bran's fall/shoving incident. Weapons practice and hunting are Ned's domain at Winterfell, not Cat's, so I see that Ned tried in some way to keep Jon separate. But he sure as hell didn't hide him, not for Jon's safety or not to ruffle the delicate feathers of the Lannister family. Separate but not hidden.
On the other hand, Ned didn't seem to feel like Robert would hurt him or his own blood at this time. It was only later he felt that he should worry about Robert's wrath, so maybe Ned didn't take Robert seriously as a threat to Jon at this point in the story. But then that negates the whole reason that Ned would lie and raise Jon as his son, if he didn't worry about Robert's wrath. I can really see both sides to this. I'm conflicted about what this all could mean.
After years of war the realm is enjoying a long summer and probably don't give a crap about Jon, Lyanna, etc. Parentage and bastards only matter when they matter. Cersei didn't care about Robert's bastards until succession became an issue.
Well, I think Cersei had the twins that Robert fathered on someone at Casterly Rock killed before the succession became an issue.
BTW - The 3 KG were there protecting the King...Jon.
Ha! But seriously, with Aerys dead, hadn't Rhaella crowned Viserys King when they were on Dragonstone? I would think that should be somewhat important to the kingsguard, even if they hated Aerys, they certainly should have recognized the wishes of Rhaella, a queen of Targaryen blood!
I do have a pet theory, that George is associating Jon with Valyrian steel. And I think the sword imagery follows Jon along throughout the story, where I suspect in the next book, like Ice, we'll find that Jon has been broken in two: an aspect of Jon's consciousness escaping into Ghost as he was being stabbed to death, while his body will be brought back to life a la Beric and Cat, where the "shadow" aspect of his personality will be dominant. So Jon will be both the hilt of the sword (Jon's spirt/consciousness inside Ghost) and the blade of the sword, the pointy end, the sword without a hilt (UnJon).
I like this idea a lot. But I am not certain that I think Jon is going to die after his stabbing. But I wonder if the trauma of his assassination attempt by his "brothers" could still send part of his psyche into Ghost for protection?
Metal folded back on itself. Like a bloodline folded back into itself, through incestuous breeding. Like the Valyrians practiced. Could this be a hint that Jon was created in a similar manner?
LOL don't worry about that. None of us are pretending we don't know the other chapters. Tis a reread after all, we've all been spoiled. If it were a group-read for first timers, that would be different.
So feel free to quote other chapters. We'll circle back to them individually, but there are areas where they should definitely inform our discussion of chapters at hand.
Exactly. I certainly can't stick to one chapter. Everything relates to everything else, and if you draw on a reference from the last page of Dance, than that is the way it is. There is no way I can stick to just a single chapter, and I am struggling to even stick just to XYZ and parentage issues. It's hard when you see something that relates to other theories not to comment on it. My willpower is not that strong!
Although Varys knows of one other. The reader is only looking for blue-eyed bastards; so that is all we're meant to find.
I think that the other bastard that Varys is aware did have black hair and blue eyes and also was ill-omened. And is now dead! And it ain't Jon! More tinfoil from me.
It tells us nothing about the other nine bastards. There is nothing certain about it. We only know for certain that 5 of Robert's bastards had black hair and blue eyes. We don't have a description of the twins that Cersei had killed. I think it is more unlikely 16 kids by the same father and various women would all have black hair and blue eyes.
"He fathered eight, to the best of my knowing," Varys said as he wrestled with the saddle. "Their mothers were copper and honey, chestnut and butter, yet the babes were all black as ravens . . . and as ill-omened, it would seem. So when Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen slid out between your sister's thighs, each as golden as the sun, the truth was not hard to glimpse." ACOK-Tyrion III
Well, Varys does mention 8 bastards of Robert's and he says they all were black as ravens, so I have to assume Varys is including the twins at Casterly Rock, or he is referring to two other bastards, and he doesn't know about the twins at Casterly Rock that Littlefinger mentioned to Ned. We know of 5 with black hair, which are Mya, Gendry, Edric, Barra, Bella (if we assume she is Robert's), the twins probably with black hair, and the eighth bastard with black hair and ill-omened as the rest. We assume that Maggy the Frog is correct when she says Robert will have 16 children, but she could be wrong. Robert might only ever have had the 8 that Varys claims to know of, but we have to assume that Robert continued to father bastards from the time he hit puberty until the time he died. As prolific as he was, I am shocked he only fathered 16 children.
If the 8 bastards that Varys claims to know of are black haired and the other 8 of Robert's bastards are not black haired, Robert is still batting .500 and we have some wiggle room with the identities of the other children. If Jon turns out to be Robert's son, I don't think that Varys knows. Jon and Robert do have some interesting things that connect them. That is why it is viable as far as theories go, it is just not in my top three fav's.
If Robert is Jon's father, a number of other things fall into place. It means that Markg is right all along and Dany is older than we've been led to believe as well. It means Kinglittlefinger is also correct about the tourney of Harrenhall and Aegon is probably Rhaegar's son and Dany is probably Rhaegar's daughter. All the things that drive people crazy over at W because RLJ is canon.
Those other things can still fall into place even if neither Rhaegar nor Robert are Jon's father. The sketchy timeline is more of an issue than anything with the majority of the parentage ideas.
There is an odd detail that popped out on this read. I've been under the impression that Ned hasn't seen Robert in fifteen years, when in fact he saw him seven years ago.
This is actually something I have noticed before and thought was very odd. I have google searched it a couple times and I have seen it addressed in conversations and threads in the past. I have seen people comment that they think that GRRM just made a mistake while others think this is a subtle clue to us. Ned tells us he hasn't seen Robert since the Greyjoy rebellion, and I believe that to be true. GRRM has even addressed it in questions, but is vague about his answers.
This is what I am sure of. Ned knows when he seen his best friend last! Nine years ago.
We know this is both Robert and Cersei's first trip to the north. I had for some time speculated a history between Ned and Cersei, and I still have that tinfoil packed away. They have odd interactions with each other during the story, familiar interactions that tickle my "what the hell" reflex, including Ned referring pretty casually to Cersei's teats, but I don't think Ned would take Cat along while he had a rendezvous with Cersei, nor do I think if Ned and Cersei had a thing, in continued after Robert married her so ...
So this comment indicates that Ned and Cat seen Cersei when Tommen was a baby, but did not see Robert at this time. Ned says five years, and Cat tells us that Tommen is seven. It's feasible to assume that Cersei could have been breastfeeding Tommen until he was two or maybe even longer. So I think that Cat and Ned must have made a trip to somewhere in the south between five and seven years ago. Either they seen Cersei at Kingslanding or she was somewhere else in the south. So why did Robert and Ned not see each other? I have heard speculation that Robert was off hunting, but I find it hard to imagine that Robert blew off Ned for a hunting trip. However, Robert did leave Ned to sit the Iron Throne so he could go off to hunt the White Hind.
I read a theory (can't remember if it was on Westeros or Reddit or even here, sorry) that speculated that Ned and Cat had traveled south to Kings Landing, and when they arrived, Robert was not in the city. Five years ago is the timeline we are given for Jorah Mormont's slave selling escapade and Ned having to travel to Bear Island. Ned tells us that Bear Island was "a long journey", and while the north is big, and Bear Island is probably a longish journey, we know that Ned does travel about in the north visiting bannermen quite frequently. We know he spends time with the hill clans, and those distances are similar to Bear Island, so why does Ned consider this to have been a long journey?
This theory speculates that word came to Ned about Jorah's disgrace while he was in Kings Landing, waiting to visit the king, and that Ned had to leave KL early and travel all the way back to the north and up to Bear Island, and by that time, Jorah had escaped the justice of Ice. So, Ned is doubly angry, because he did not get to dispense the justice that Jorah was due, and he missed a visit with his best friend. Ned seems really mad at Jorah, almost disproportionately, but maybe his anger is more easily explained by Jorah bringing disgrace to the north, as well as causing Ned to travel to and fro across the continent and miss a visit with his best friend.
I rather like the idea, and I don't think I would have pieced it all together in that manner, but it makes some sense. Or GRRM just made a mistake! Very possibly he did, just like Renly's green eyes!
**I keep thinking I am going to write up my Ned/Cersei tinfoil but so far I just have a very disorganized pile of notes on the subject!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
I think that the other bastard that Varys is aware did have black hair and blue eyes and also was ill-omened. And is now dead! And it ain't Jon! More tinfoil from me.
Without getting too far into this debate again; Varys doesn't say whether the 8th bastard is black haired or blue eyed. Being sent to the wall would be ill-omened. I imagine that if your mother dies while giving birth, that would ill-omened. Curiously when Arya meets Bella who claims to be Robert's bastard; Arya compares Bella and Gendry but only comments on her hair color. So no blue eyes then.
If Varys knows of 8 bastards then either Bella is one of them or there are two bastards we don't know about. Which brings twins back on the table. LOL
Thus, Stark coloring is a recessive trait. There are many complicated matters to consider with these parentage theories, but this one really is simple.
I agree it's simple and I don't have any backup until Wolfmaid comes back. I'm prepared to die on this sword, alone if I have to. AND THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH MY EYES.
Hahahahah omg I'm dying out here! Of course there's nothing wrong with your eyes, Lynn. Voice is completely stubborn and refuses magical gene theory. Which he should be gracious enough to accept because he DOES seem to believe what Martin sold him!
For what is worth, I personally think Ned and Jon Arryn simply got lucky with the Dark of hair and blue eyes because Martin had to only write in proofs of this dominant gene. How else would Gendry be discovered as Bobby's bastard (?) it's not like they have DNA testing available. I wonder what would have happened if there was an exception in one of the books(?) lol they'd be discounting everything else.
“Don’t fight in the North, or the South. Fight every battle everywhere. Always, in your mind.”
I agree it's simple and I don't have any backup until Wolfmaid comes back. I'm prepared to die on this sword, alone if I have to. AND THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH MY EYES.
Hahahahah omg I'm dying out here! Of course there's nothing wrong with your eyes, Lynn. Voice is completely stubborn and refuses magical gene theory. Which he should be gracious enough to accept because he DOES seem to believe what Martin sold him!
For what is worth, I personally think Ned and Jon Arryn simply got lucky with the Dark of hair and blue eyes because Martin had to only write in proofs of this dominant gene. How else would Gendry be discovered as Bobby's bastard (?) it's not like they have DNA testing available. I wonder what would have happened if there was an exception in one of the books(?) lol they'd be discounting everything else.
There appears to be one exception. When Arya meets Bella who claims to be one of Robert's bastards; Arya compares her to Gendry and only comments on their hair. Nothing about their eyes. I have to check, but I think Ned does the same with Bella and comments only about her hair being like Mya's when she was born.
I think this is interesting as well, especially because we see with the Tyrell family that too many heirs can be a problem to deal with. What to do with them all? Maybe make one a kingsguard? We know that was what Bran hoped to grow up to be. Ned and Cat have three legitimate sons, so the Stark line should be safe, but Ned (and Cat) think of more children. Now, I think from Cat's POV, the more children she has with Ned, the more it ties them together and also pad's her chance of her grandchildren inheriting Winterfell. And maybe Ned just likes kid's and wants a huge family, but I think it is something else. He might not know why, but he knows this world needs more Stark blood. Maybe he should have been fathering bastards all over the north like Bobby B was in the south!
Don't forget poor Waymar! I don't think three heirs is usually a problem, it seems pretty common to have that many. So I think the issue comes with more than three. And of course, depends on the wealth and available land of the family, and there Stark would probably be safe. The Royce's are spreading their sons all over the realm it seems (and disregarding any tinfoil about that here), so opportunity is certainly part of it. I can't remember where it was mentioned, maybe by Dunk - gods, I read to many books at one time! Annywho! It was mentioned that being a KG is the ultimate pipedream for a knight, probably only surpassed by the wish of being a SotM, as there are only 7 places and they serve for life. Yes, it was Dunk! Bran might have gotten the opportunity, but not safe to bank on. Of course the Starks have the Wall, and usually have one there, no? But still! I think Catelyn mentioning that Ned always asks about the children indicates that this is what their relationship is all about. Combined with her reactions when remembering Brandon and then being dissapointed with Ned when they met... I get the feeling that as this is what they have in common, it ends up being her focus. And as you say, securing the seat for her line. While getting Jon as far back as possible, Nights Watch or no. As for Ned, I really do think he loves children and want as big a pack as possible! He did see how vulnerable a house can be even with three boys too. But I agree it was more than that; I think he knew the shit was going to hit the fan within his lifetime and knew this for years. Mayhaps it's in one of those holes of his memory and only in the subconcious? Also, Ben discussed these things with Mormont and Quorin. Did he also mention it to Ned? I've seen differing oppinions of what their relationship is like, but as he uses just Ben in Cat I instead of Benjen, I think there was little animosity. He's a bit of an enigma, our dear Ned!
But then that negates the whole reason that Ned would lie and raise Jon as his son, if he didn't worry about Robert's wrath. I can really see both sides to this. I'm conflicted about what this all could mean.
Could it be that Ned didn't actually hide Jon at all? In almost every parentage theory, there ends up being a discussion of why he needs to hide Jon. Simply not telling him or anyone else who his mother was is something quite different. And very effective I might add. He did luck out in Jon being so Stark (or was it luck at all? ), so no problem there. Keeping his mum about his mother, keeps the identity of his father hidden as well automatically.
Ha! But seriously, with Aerys dead, hadn't Rhaella crowned Viserys King when they were on Dragonstone? I would think that should be somewhat important to the kingsguard, even if they hated Aerys, they certainly should have recognized the wishes of Rhaella, a queen of Targaryen blood!
That would depend on their plan. We don't know what they were up to, so they could be planning on going to Dragonstone after the meeting with Ned & Co. By the way, where is that part of crowning Vicerys? I can't find it anywhere...
Exactly. I certainly can't stick to one chapter. Everything relates to everything else, and if you draw on a reference from the last page of Dance, than that is the way it is. There is no way I can stick to just a single chapter, and I am struggling to even stick just to XYZ and parentage issues. It's hard when you see something that relates to other theories not to comment on it. My willpower is not that strong!
I agree it's simple and I don't have any backup until Wolfmaid comes back. I'm prepared to die on this sword, alone if I have to. AND THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH MY EYES.
Hahahahah omg I'm dying out here! Of course there's nothing wrong with your eyes, Lynn. Voice is completely stubborn and refuses magical gene theory. Which he should be gracious enough to accept because he DOES seem to believe what Martin sold him!
For what is worth, I personally think Ned and Jon Arryn simply got lucky with the Dark of hair and blue eyes because Martin had to only write in proofs of this dominant gene. How else would Gendry be discovered as Bobby's bastard (?) it's not like they have DNA testing available. I wonder what would have happened if there was an exception in one of the books(?) lol they'd be discounting everything else.
The girl had been so young Ned had not dared to ask her age. No doubt she'd been a virgin; the better brothels could always find a virgin, if the purse was fat enough. She had light red hair and a powdering of freckles across the bridge of her nose, and when she slipped free a breast to give her nipple to the babe, he saw that her bosom was freckled as well. "I named her Barra," she said as the child nursed. "She looks so like him, does she not, milord? She has his nose, and his hair …"
"She does." Eddard Stark had touched the baby's fine, dark hair. It flowed through his fingers like black silk. Robert's firstborn had had the same fine hair, he seemed to recall.
Nothing about the eyes.
A Storm of Swords - Arya V "Well, I might be." When the girl shrugged, her gown slipped off one shoulder. "They say King Robert fucked my mother when he hid here, back before the battle. Not that he didn't have all the other girls too, but Leslyn says he liked my ma the best." The girl did have hair like the old king's, Arya thought; a great thick mop of it, as black as coal. That doesn't mean anything, though. Gendry has the same kind of hair too. Lots of people have black hair.
Also nothing about eye color. Robert acknowledges Barra, so I see no reason not to accept Bella's story about her mother as well.
This puts me in mind of the show as well. Kit was asked to dye his hair black and when Ned is looking at the Book of Lineages; the Baratheons are black of hair only. So I wonder if they were anticipating a reveal in the next book which didn't materialize.
Post by kinglittlefinger on Sept 27, 2017 4:01:00 GMT
Yeah, I got nothing new from this chapter.
Carrying over from another thread RE: Mance making his way to Winterfell for this feast, looks like Luwin -> Aemon -> Benjen is the logical progression for the news of Robert's coming. No idea how it makes it to Mance in time to beat Robert to Winterfell unless it comes direct from one of those three.
Part of me says GRRM probably hadn't even thought about having Mance at the feast when this was written though. Not sure if it's worth pondering or not.
I agree that fifteen years is plenty of time for Ned to not be nervous anymore about a cover story he told when Jon was a baby, but that wasn't freyfamilyreunion 's point.
It damages the protection motive because the argument has always been that Ned fears for Jon's safety – in the present tense. And, thus, must keep him hidden. And of course, if Ned has been hiding Rhaegar's son in Winterfell for fifteen years, this reasoning makes perfect sense.
For example, this passage is often cited as an example of Ned's RLJ predicament (Eddard IX spoilers):
"I will," Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them.
I think what freyfamilyreunion 's observation does, is strike down the argument within RLJ that Ned's fifteen-year-burden was one of protecting Jon from Robert. If Jon is Rhaegar's son, and Ned feels sworn to protect him, the reaction itself is what seems odd. Ned is a man-grown, pushing 40... and smiling with mirth when he hears the king is going to visit the place he's been committing treason by hiding the son of a very popular prince?
It would be different if Robert had seen Jon before, or regularly. Then I could understand Ned being comforted by this news. But this is Robert's first visit to Winterfell, and unless Ned brought young Jon along for the Greyjoy Rebellion, this is the first time anyone at court will lay eyes upon the boy. If R+L=J, this should definitely be cause for concern rather than joy.
Then there's the context. Ned was just given some very bad news, and is not feeling great about it. Seems odd that a surprise visit from Robert would calm Ned and restore his good spirits if he had been burdened with the weight of hiding Rhaegar's heir for the last fifteen years.
Still making my way through the thread so apologize if this has been said.
While I agree with the others that I don't see Ned's smile about seeing Robert as weird even if RLJ is true, as it's been 15 years, compare Ned's reaction to Robert visiting Winterfell to Ned's reaction to Robert mentioning Daenerys soon. Not sure it could be used as a knock against RLJ, but I think it can definitely be used to support RLD or RAD at the tower of joy.
Plus Ned gets wind of the fact that Rhaegar had called it the tower of joy. Who told Ned that? How does Ned know that no one in Rhaegar's party ever spoke of Lyanna's condition?
Plus the entire realm pretty much has the same info that we the readers have, if we can come up with R + L = J, why can't a few others figure it out. After all, we have Robert's alliance who believe that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and raped her. While others such as the Targaryens, Lannisters, Barristan, believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna were in a consensual relationship.
Everyone seems to be aware of the fact that Ned slew three kingsguards in Dorne. Hasn't anyone questioned why the three Kingsguards were in Dorne? And finally everyone seems aware of the fact that Ned brings a bastard boy to Winterfell to raise as his own.
So I guess my question is how could Ned ever be comfortable with the fact that no one has learned of his "secret", that he is secretly harboring Rhaegar's heir in Winterfell? How could Ned ever be comfortable with the fact that Rhaegar didn't confide in his father, King Aerys? Or Varys, the King's current spymaster?
Yet interestingly enough, Ned makes no attempt to hide Jon from the King's party coming to Winterfell. Ned seems to evince no concern whatsoever, that the Robert for the first time, is about to come into direct contact with Jon, and allegedly it is Robert who poses such a direct threat to Jon's safety.
I have issues with Robert+Lyanna=Jon, but this isn't one of them. Ned being glad for Robert's visit makes sense in the Robert+Lyanna scenario.
I never really understood Robert being the father. For one, Jon doesn't have the Baratheon black hair and blue eyes that virtually the entire first book's intrigues hinge upon. For two, we know Robert had to acknowledge a bastard because it was with another highborn lady, surely he would acknowledge a son by the woman he loved. Unless Ned hid it from him for some reason, in which case you have to wonder why? Robert wasn't betrothed to Cersei until a year or two after the war ends as far as I know, so there's no wrath there to save him from, no succession to throw a wrench in yet. And even so, he's still a bastard.
I have issues with Robert+Lyanna=Jon, but this isn't one of them. Ned being glad for Robert's visit makes sense in the Robert+Lyanna scenario.
I never really understood Robert being the father. For one, Jon doesn't have the Baratheon black hair and blue eyes that virtually the entire first book's intrigues hinge upon. For two, we know Robert had to acknowledge a bastard because it was with another highborn lady, surely he would acknowledge a son by the woman he loved. Unless Ned hid it from him for some reason, in which case you have to wonder why? Robert wasn't betrothed to Cersei until a year or two after the war ends as far as I know, so there's no wrath there to save him from, no succession to throw a wrench in yet. And even so, he's still a bastard.
Full disclosure: Robert is pretty low on my list. Only guy I have ranked lower than him is Rhaegar. LOL
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I never really understood Robert being the father. For one, Jon doesn't have the Baratheon black hair and blue eyes that virtually the entire first book's intrigues hinge upon. For two, we know Robert had to acknowledge a bastard because it was with another highborn lady, surely he would acknowledge a son by the woman he loved. Unless Ned hid it from him for some reason, in which case you have to wonder why? Robert wasn't betrothed to Cersei until a year or two after the war ends as far as I know, so there's no wrath there to save him from, no succession to throw a wrench in yet. And even so, he's still a bastard.
Full disclosure: Robert is pretty low on my list. Only guy I have ranked lower than him is Rhaegar. LOL
Yeah I finished reading the rest of your post and saw the same argument and the posts that followed and was like "aw shit I ain't that sold against it" LOL
Full disclosure: Robert is pretty low on my list. Only guy I have ranked lower than him is Rhaegar. LOL
Yeah I finished reading the rest of your post and saw the same argument and the posts that followed and was like "aw shit I ain't that sold against it" LOL
LOL yeee. Still, not impossible. I think GRRM laid down the kingly language for Jon pretty heavily. He wants us to see it. And a lot of that language connects him to Robert. But yeah... the "black of hair" thing is pretty damning.
All the theories have flaws though. I lean towards Starkcest right now, but I won't even pretend the timeline works in favor of it.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."