I would go for Ned as Jon's father if it wasn't for this passage when Ned confront Cersei in the Godsgrove.
A Game of Thrones - Eddard XII "My son Bran …"
To her credit, Cersei did not look away. "He saw us. You love your children, do you not?" Robert had asked him the very same question, the morning of the melee. He gave her the same answer. "With all my heart."
"No less do I love mine."
Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would.
Ned doesn't think of Jon as a child of his body in his private thoughts.
Ned isolates the bastard. That much is true. But it is not true that by doing so, Ned has demonstrated posession of some children, but not others. Ned thinks of Jon not only as his son, but in his own sweet summer child's shoes, pitted against a protective mother willing to do vile things.
And, this muddled language isn't even remotely surprising, as GRRM does the exact same thing, while still calling Jon a half-brother to the other Stark children.
Even in Winterfell, as a kid before the wolves, Jon was the bastard. He was the odd one out. The rest of them are all brothers and sisters. He's only a half-brother, so he's not as closely tied to them ... So he's of them, he's part of the family, he's part of the siblings, but he's a little bit apart too. Ghost is very similar to that. He's the albino, he's the one who makes no noise, so he's related to the other direwolves but one apart as well.
Ned and GRRM are quite in agreement. Ned considers the protection of Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon as being separate and apart from his protection of Jon Snow. But that does not mean that he does not see Jon Snow as his son.
Jon is simply the only child Ned must protect from Catelyn, and Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon are the only children he must protect from Cersei.
And if we sit back and think about it, this disctinction makes a lot of sense. While I liked the idea of Ned+Ashara, I've been on the Lyanna+Arthur bandwagon for a while. This SSM got me off of it. Both Ned and GRRM view Jon as a part of the family, siblings with the other Stark children. The only thing that makes Jon the odd one out is his bastardy.
Once this is reflected in the wolf pups, each born from the same litter, it really drives the point home. Wolf mothers cannot give birth to pups that are not their own, but they can deliver pups from multiple fathers. Ned, a wolf who would soon be beheaded in the name of the Stag, has come upon six wolf pups that happen to match the gender and social status of each of his children. There's a wild one for his wild toddler. There's an albino outcast for his bastard.
The pups, this passage (in convo with Cersei), and the SSM, together, have strongly pushed me into the Ned+?=Jon camp.
And if we reread the passage, and see that Ned is risking his life to save the lives of children born from twincest, well... the "?" can only be Lyanna.
Ned isolates the bastard. That much is true. But it is not true that by doing so, Ned has demonstrated posession of some children, but not others. Ned thinks of Jon not only as his son, but in his own sweet summer child's shoes, pitted against a protective mother willing to do vile things.
And, this muddled language isn't even remotely surprising, as GRRM does the exact same thing, while still calling Jon a half-brother to the other Stark children.
Even in Winterfell, as a kid before the wolves, Jon was the bastard. He was the odd one out. The rest of them are all brothers and sisters. He's only a half-brother, so he's not as closely tied to them ... So he's of them, he's part of the family, he's part of the siblings, but he's a little bit apart too. Ghost is very similar to that. He's the albino, he's the one who makes no noise, so he's related to the other direwolves but one apart as well.
Ned and GRRM are quite in agreement. Ned considers the protection of Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon as being separate and apart from his protection of Jon Snow. But that does not mean that he does not see Jon Snow as his son.
Jon is simply the only child Ned must protect from Catelyn, and Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon are the only children he must protect from Cersei.
And if we sit back and think about it, this disctinction makes a lot of sense. While I liked the idea of Ned+Ashara, I've been on the Lyanna+Arthur bandwagon for a while. This SSM got me off of it. Both Ned and GRRM view Jon as a part of the family, siblings with the other Stark children. The only thing that makes Jon the odd one out is his bastardy.
Once this is reflected in the wolf pups, each born from the same litter, it really drives the point home. Wolf mothers cannot give birth to pups that are not their own, but they can deliver pups from multiple fathers. Ned, a wolf who would soon be beheaded in the name of the Stag, has come upon six wolf pups that happen to match the gender and social status of each of his children. There's a wild one for his wild toddler. There's an albino outcast for his bastard.
The pups, this passage (in convo with Cersei), and the SSM, together, have strongly pushed me into the Ned+?=Jon camp.
And if we reread the passage, and see that Ned is risking his life to save the lives of children born from twincest, well... the "?" can only be Lyanna.
A point in the form of a question to prompt thought...If Ned is thinking of what he would do for a child he didn't know and conveniently left out Jon, a child he did know be Jon his or not.What does that say about the premise of this arguement?
I wan't also add this.Tyrion when prying about the death of Rhaegar's kids was told by the Knight that Elia died protecting the boy.He made a poignant statememt about the things mothers do.
If the child wasn't hers and her reaction was thus.What is GRRM trying to tell us?
What is he telling us with the Gilly/Monster/Aemon situation?
Jon pretty much told Gilly to take a child with king's blood and leave her's that "may"be killed.
If it is true that Aegon is real then Elia a mother made the choice to give up a no name child for her own.To take it step further she then died trying to protect a child not of her flesh.
In the case of Gilly she gave up a child of her flesh to protect a child she didn't know and not of her flesh.
What's this got to do with Cat? As a mom would she protect Jon or would she sacrifice a child not of her flesh?
The interesting thing is Ned's hoping to the gods he would never know what Cat would do.Why would he be fearful at that point?What has changed where Cat would be in that situation?
I guess i should say why would Jon be in danger from Cat? The only thing i can think of is if he is...
1.Winterfell's true heir...He kids could get screwed out there inheritance.
2.King's blood.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
I guess i should say why would Jon be in danger from Cat? The only thing i can think of is if he is...
1.Winterfell's true heir...He kids could get screwed out there inheritance.
2.King's blood.
I agree. The comparison is between Cersei and Catelyn and their children. Cersei knows her children are not legitimate in the succession and eliminates anyone who knows about it or poses a threat... Jon Arryn, Ned, Bran. Any known bastards are killed. Ned wonders what Catelyn would do in the same circumstances and given her hatred of Jon, hopes he never finds out. Some secrets are too dangerous to tell even to the ones you love the most.
Jon is either Ned's first born or Lyanna's son by Robert, a Great Bastard. A legitimized bastard son of the reigning king and the daughter of Winterfell could conceivably be given precedence as Lord of Winterfell by the king, had Robert known about Jon.
A Storm of Swords - Jon II
He flexed the burned fingers of his sword hand. Longclaw was slung to his saddle, the carved stone wolf's-head pommel and soft leather grip of the great bastard sword within easy reach.
Ironically, it's Uncle Stannis who offers to make Jon a great bastard and Lord of Winterfell.
A point in the form of a question to prompt thought...If Ned is thinking of what he would do for a child he didn't know and conveniently left out Jon, a child he did know be Jon his or not.What does that say about the premise of this arguement?
The problem is, Ned didn't leave out Jon.
If the passage only contained the first sentence, "Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do?" then I would agree with you, and the Faithful. But the passage continues, and Jon is accounted for:
Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would.
Taken as a whole, Ned's thoughts mirror GRRM's:
Even in Winterfell, as a kid before the wolves, Jon was the bastard. He was the odd one out. The rest of them are all brothers and sisters. He's only a half-brother, so he's not as closely tied to them ... So he's of them, he's part of the family, he's part of the siblings, but he's a little bit apart too. Ghost is very similar to that. He's the albino, he's the one who makes no noise, so he's related to the other direwolves but one apart as well.
Rather than forget Jon is his son, Ned views Jon as being in Bran's shoes when the threat is Catelyn. Cersei is not a threat to Jon, but she was obviously a threat to Ned's trueborn children.
And, Ned likely didn't know Jon until he found him. Regardless of parentage, the first part of the statement makes sense to me with that in mind. Ned had to choose to bring a child he didn't know to Winterfell, or to abandon him.
Ned has arranged an analogy:
Cersei : Bran :: Ned : Unknown < Catelyn : Jon
Rather than be excluded from his children, Jon seems to be the child that causes Ned's greatest concern ('Even more so'). He's the odd one out. Gods frown on bastards. It makes sense that Ned would have a special concern for all things Jon.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Even in Winterfell, as a kid before the wolves, Jon was the bastard. He was the odd one out. The rest of them are all brothers and sisters. He's only a half-brother, so he's not as closely tied to them ... So he's of them, he's part of the family, he's part of the siblings, but he's a little bit apart too. Ghost is very similar to that. He's the albino, he's the one who makes no noise, so he's related to the other direwolves but one apart as well.
This is so misleading. Jon is a half brother in the eyes of his siblings in story because that is they have been told. Jon can simply be the son of Ned's heart rather than the son of his body.
Bran is threat to Cersei because like Jon Arryn and Ned Stark; he knows about Cersei and Jaime. That is the threat he poses.
Jon is akin to all of Robert's bastards who might concievably make a claim on the thrown if Cersei was ever exposed. That's the threat Jon poses to Catelyn, should she ever find out Jon's parentage. If Jon was the son by Ashara, why wouldn't Ned just leave Jon at Starfall where his bastardy wouldn't matter and Catelyn wouldn't be dishonored by Jon presence. That would seem a logical course for a 'child he didn't know'.
Rather than be excluded from his children, Jon seems to be the child that causes Ned's greatest concern ('Even more so'). He's the odd one out. Gods frown on bastards. It makes sense that Ned would have a special concern for all things Jon.
I think you are right...This is another example of seeing something that isnt there and it frankly isnt a clue for anything other than Jon being a point of much concern for Ned.Indicated by Cat's own statement of 'Ned was always fiercely protective of Jon.'
I'd crap my pants to if there ever being a situation that would call for that.
Your profile pic is killing.
Jon snow AA Reborn,TPTWP,KOT7K tamer of wildling women,kicker-asserer of death.All hail Jon Snow
HAIL!
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
Jon is a half brother in the eyes of his siblings in story because that is they have been told. Jon can simply be the son of Ned's heart rather than the son of his body.
Sure, but this SSM isn't written from Jon's siblings' point of view, or even Ned's. It's from GRRM's own perspective.
Bran is threat to Cersei because like Jon Arryn and Ned Stark; he knows about Cersei and Jaime. That is the threat he poses.
Sure, but you will recall that Cersei never harmed a hair on Jon Arryn's head. And even she did not defenestrate Bran. That was Jaime.
Still, I think we agree that Ned could see that Cersei viewed Bran as a threat. We know that Catelyn views Jon as a threat as well, in spite of not knowing Jon's parentage.
Jon is akin to all of Robert's bastards who might concievably make a claim on the thrown if Cersei was ever exposed. That's the threat Jon poses to Catelyn, should she ever find out Jon's parentage. If Jon was the son by Ashara, why wouldn't Ned just leave Jon at Starfall where his bastardy wouldn't matter and Catelyn wouldn't be dishonored by Jon presence. That would seem a logical course for a 'child he didn't know'.
Ashara was dead, so if she was Jon's mother, it makes sense to me that Ned might adopt him. Add to this the fact that Ned killed Arthur Dayne, and is believed to be the cause of Ashara's suicide, and you have yourself a situation in which Ned might feel it's in Jon's best interests to bring him back to Winterfell.
It's all conjecture of course, but Ashara+Ned is one of the scenarios in which Ned's adoption of Jon makes a lot of sense.
And, we know that this exact scenario makes sense to Catelyn. It's the one she believes. She doesn't like it, but it makes sense to her. She, like House Dayne, believes that Ned loved his Lady Ashara. And I agree with you that this is one way in which she views Jon as a threat. I've made the same arguement, and it's an easy argument to make, as it's right there in the book.
But I disagree with the idea that Ned dishonored Catelyn by bringing his bastard home. It's Ned's House, not hers, and it's Jon's home as a child of Stark blood.
I would agree with your sentiment if we replaced that word "dishonored," with "offended." I think Ned offended Catelyn, and that her vitriol towards Jon is not without just cause, even if it seems cruel and stone-hearted.
But I do not think Ned "dishonored" Catelyn in the sight of gods and men by the mere act of siring a bastard. Many men sire bastards. And while it was odd for Ned to bring his home, it is hard to equate that hospitality and guardianship with an act of "dishonor."
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
But I disagree with the idea that Ned dishonored Catelyn by bringing his bastard home. It's Ned's House, not hers, and it's Jon's home as a child of Stark blood.
Yea i agree and proposed that based on Neds convo with Robert he did cheat on Cat but i dont believe a baby a result of it.A sweet deal in Dorne might have been.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
Yea i agree and proposed that based on Neds convo with Robert he did cheat on Cat but i dont believe a baby a result of it.A sweet deal in Dorne might have been.
We need one of those mix and match worksheets, 'parents' in a column on the left, 'children' on the right, because there is also Dany to consider.
I've drifted away from Ned+Ashara because Ashara fits so well as Dany's mother. markg171 and SlyWren have come up with some great arguments and connections. Mark favors Lyanna as Dany's mother, but his (f)Dany essay covers the Ashara angle as well, and I think it's the stronger of the two.
Are there any other notable children born around 283-285? Gotta be.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
In Robert's deathbed delirium his confesses in a manner "that there was nobody to tell him no" and "it was wrong, she was only a girl child." I doubt this has anything to do with Dany.
If you want to make the case for this being a parallel with a non-Dany female, I can dig that, but Robert is clearly talking about the attempt on Dany's life.
Oh I think Robert was insanely jealous to the point where he had to possess Lyanna after the perceived threat by Rhaegar. His obsession with Rhaegar raping Lyanna "thousands and thousands of times" sounds like projected guilt. I think Lyanna ran because Robert forced himself on her and I think she went into hiding on the Quiet Isle.
Because it fits the lie he tells himself. He won't admit that Lyanna ran because of him; that his behavior was wrong; so it can only mean that she was kidnapped by Rhaegar.
I completely agree that Robert is living in his own reality when it comes to Lyanna, but this wasn't just projected guilt and a lie Robert told himself.
Bran:
"Robert was betrothed to marry her, but Prince Rhaegar carried her off and raped her," Bran explained. "Robert fought a war to win her back. He killed Rhaegar on the Trident with his hammer, but Lyanna died and he never got her back at all."
Barristan:
Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it. [...] Rhaegar had chosen Lyanna Stark of Winterfell. Barristan Selmy would have made a different choice.
Kevan:
She will never wash the stain away, no matter how hard she scrubs. Ser Kevan remembered the girl she once had been, so full of life and mischief. And when she'd flowered, ahhhh … had there ever been a maid so sweet to look upon? If Aerys had agreed to marry her to Rhaegar, how many deaths might have been avoided? Cersei could have given the prince the sons he wanted, lions with purple eyes and silver manes … and with such a wife, Rhaegar might never have looked twice at Lyanna Stark. The northern girl had a wild beauty, as he recalled, though however bright a torch might burn it could never match the rising sun.
Maester Yandel:
Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides.
And again, I think we should begin with Lyanna, rather than any man, in scenarios that involve her being a mother.
In my opinion, it doesn't matter what Robert thought about Rhaegar. It matters what Lyanna thought of Robert.
That's what I meant. Jon is older than Dany by 8 or 9 months.
Indeed, per the author's own words.
But this is what makes Robert+Lyanna=Jon impractical as a theory in terms of the timeline. Jon would have been born around the time of the Sack of KL, and sired around 9 months before that.
This would mean that Robert took time out from the Battle of the Bells to have sex with Lyanna.
Lyanna was not the cause of Robert's Rebellion, but there can be no doubt that her absence was a rallying cry and that the rumored abdution had been touted by rebles as a call to action, and by loyalists as a doomed romance.
Whether or not Lyanna was with Rhaegar, it seems clear that she was not with Robert. And, most importantly, she didn't want to be.
I erased my Robert and Lyanna comments as they aren't relevant to this thread. As for Ned and Ashara, I really wanted that to be true but I don't think Jon is Ned's biological son. It sucks because I think Jon's story would be better served by having him be Lord Eddard's bastard having his story be one of over coming that stigma. On a side note with N+A=J there is a reason to hide Jon's parentage. If Ned caused Ashara's death by killing her brother than he may want to hide that fact from Jon because he fears it would case a rift. It may be something that Ned is too ashamed to admit so he claims Wylla as Jon's mother. The Daynes also agree to claim it was Wylla to protect Ashara's honor. I still really like NAJ. There is still evidence for NAJ in the books. I have to admit there is still a possibility that Ned and Ashara romance could have produced Jon. If the mystery of Jon's parentage was solved by stating there is no mystery I told you in the first book who Jon's parents were then that would be one of the best parent reveals and mind fucks I've ever read about. Essentially, the notion that Jon wasn't Ned's son was just in our heads.
Bran is threat to Cersei because like Jon Arryn and Ned Stark; he knows about Cersei and Jaime. That is the threat he poses.
Sure, but you will recall that Cersei never harmed a hair on Jon Arryn's head. And even she did not defenestrate Bran. That was Jaime.
Still, I think we agree that Ned could see that Cersei viewed Bran as a threat. We know that Catelyn views Jon as a threat as well, in spite of not knowing Jon's parentage.
To be fair the only reason Cersei didn't kill Jon Arryn is that Baelish beat her to the punch. Baelish didn't like that Stannis had gone to Jon Arryn about the incest. Pretty sure Baelish let it leak to Stannis so he would end up doing something stupid. Stannis made the smart move of going to Jon Arryn. Then Jon Arryn was going to foster Sweetrobin with Stannis while Cersei talked Robert unto letting Tywin foster Sweetrobin. If the Lannister have Sweetrobin Jon Arryn wouldn't dare make a move against them. The idea of losing Sweetrobin have Lysa the willingness to kill Jon.
Also remember that Pycelle let Jon Arryn die because he knew it was what Cersei had wanted. Pycelle knew about the incest and knew Jon Arryn did as well which is why he let him die. That of course made all the other players think he did it at Cersei's order since Pycelle is a huge Lannister ass kisser.
No wonder everyone believes that the Lannister's did it. Baelish covered his tracks incredibly well.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
By the way i want Septore Lemore to be Ashara so bad.I really believe we need somebody to intimately tie this aspect together.
I would really like to see more of Septa Lemore.
But I don't think she's Ashara. Lack of evidence is not evidence, of course, but it seems unlikely to me that Tyrion would not notice her violet eyes during the same trip he was paying attention to eye colors (Young Griff).
I'm also intrigued by the fact that there is a milk brother scenario via Jon and via the Dayne.They made sure that Edric was aware that he and Jon Snow are Milk brothers.
I don't know if GRRM is utilizing that practice in full or part.It seems in part so far example Jacareys Valeryion and Daeron Targaryen.Done so there would be no bad blood between them.
If this be the case it may have been done so there would be no hard feelings between the Daynes and a house that was seen as an enemy.
By the time Edric came along Jon already left the breast.So bonding and fostering was not the purpose,so it had to be strategic and political.
Agreed. SlyWren made a similar point once, iirc. In this thread, I guess we have to assume House Dayne is protecting the secret of Jon's parentage. Otherwise, I'd point out that House Dayne supports what Ned (and markg171) already told us: Wylla is Jon's mother.
In any case, the Edric Dayne story is very intriguing. House Stark is extremely respectful of House Dayne, and they demonstrate the level of respect for few other noble families, if any.
House Dayne nursed Jon Snow. Even if it is not related to him by blood, they have raised their lord, Ned Dayne, to feel a sense of kinship with NedStark's bastard.
I'm always surprised that Ned Dayne's info-dump isn't more of a bombshell among the fandom. If we learned that Bloodraven had been nursed by Old Nan, that connection to House Stark would surely raise some eyebrows.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
By the way i want Septore Lemore to be Ashara so bad.I really believe we need somebody to intimately tie this aspect together.
I would really like to see more of Septa Lemore.
But I don't think she's Ashara. Lack of evidence is not evidence, of course, but it seems unlikely to me that Tyrion would not notice her violet eyes during the same trip he was paying attention to eye colors (Young Griff).
I forgot who mentioned this and when but Tyrion rarely if ever notes a women's eye color, especially those he loves/lusts over. For perfect example we still don't know Shae's eye color and how many times did Tyrion describe her in his POV?
I don't know if she is Ashara but I hope she is. Between her and Howland Reed we can get to the bottom of who Jon/Dany/Aegon really are... hopefully.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
But I don't think she's Ashara. Lack of evidence is not evidence, of course, but it seems unlikely to me that Tyrion would not notice her violet eyes during the same trip he was paying attention to eye colors (Young Griff).
I forgot who mentioned this and when but Tyrion rarely if ever notes a women's eye color, especially those he loves/lusts over. For perfect example we still don't know Shae's eye color and how many times did Tyrion describe her in his POV?
I don't know if she is Ashara but I hope she is. Between her and Howland Reed we can get to the bottom of who Jon/Dany/Aegon really are... hopefully.
I think history shows Tyrion only looks at the parts that matter to him.
We will see,this is just a gut,but i don't think she is just some Septa.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"