Why would it be more cruel if Jon is special? I think it is no matter who it would be.
He's denying Jon his fate/destiny and sending him to a freezing hell hole to live out the rest of his days in a order full of assholes... also to a life of celibacy which Jon finds out certainly isn't for him
This made me wonder if human greenseers have different or any outward signs of their gift. The Children are said to have green or red eyes, and are sickly and short lived. Jojen fits this, but are said to only be a greendreamer. Bloodraven has red eyes, but we have no indication that he was sickly and he sure wasn't short lived as he disappeared at 68 or something.
As far as we know Bran has blue eyes and he was anything but weak and sickly. But he sure has power. So is this connected to the Stark blood, being human or what? If Sweetrobin is a greenseer, he fits the sickly part but has blue eyes. But is that sicklyness natural or induced?
Hard to say. I certainly think Sweetrobin has the gift. PJ has certainly made the case for that.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
He's denying Jon his fate/destiny and sending him to a freezing hell hole to live out the rest of his days in a order full of assholes... also to a life of celibacy which Jon finds out certainly isn't for him
That depends on Ned knowing Jon's destiny. Knowing his parentage doesn't lead to knowing his fate. If that turns out to be connected to tPtwP or something similar, I doubt Ned would take it seriously. The exeption I can see is if he's eligable to be the next SotM. He clarely didn't intend on Jon taking the black, but wouldn't deny him if he was older. That implies that he didn't think there was something special in store for Jon. I agree with sending him there without proper council. It's odd that fostering wasn't an option, at the same time it's obvious that he wants to keep his family close as no son is fostered out. Ned failing the shit test Catelyn gives him really annoys me! Still, even after going to the Wall Jon had time to decide. If Benjen had been on hand, would he council him in his decition? It's a fair question to ask. Celibacy isn't a life for many, and Benjen is right to point out that Jon has no idea of what he's giving up. Who doesn't love sex and longs for a loving relationship, right? With the exeption of holding back the reality of the Watch and his age, I don't see this as that much worse than any other man willingly joining. Some still do.
That depends on Ned knowing Jon's destiny. Knowing his parentage doesn't lead to knowing his fate. If that turns out to be connected to tPtwP or something similar, I doubt Ned would take it seriously. The exeption I can see is if he's eligable to be the next SotM. He clarely didn't intend on Jon taking the black, but wouldn't deny him if he was older. That implies that he didn't think there was something special in store for Jon.
I agree with sending him there without proper council. It's odd that fostering wasn't an option, at the same time it's obvious that he wants to keep his family close as no son is fostered out. Ned failing the shit test Catelyn gives him really annoys me! Still, even after going to the Wall Jon had time to decide. If Benjen had been on hand, would he council him in his decition? It's a fair question to ask.
Celibacy isn't a life for many, and Benjen is right to point out that Jon has no idea of what he's giving up. Who doesn't love sex and longs for a loving relationship, right?
With the exeption of holding back the reality of the Watch and his age, I don't see this as that much worse than any other man willingly joining. Some still do.
A good point, still not telling him who his mother was is a dick move, almost as much as Cat forcing Jon to leave Winterfell. Still he didn't intend for Jon to take the Black so what was his plan?
I agree fostering would have been great for Jon, its a common practice in the North. Plenty of Lords would be honored to foster Jon, or so I would imagine.
Benjen is so bipolar on this issue it makes me wonder. First he tells Jon they need good men like him on the Wall (true enough the Watch is in shit condition). Then Benjen goes all fatherly telling him he doesn't know what he would be giving up.
Makes you wonder what Benjen knows...
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
That depends on Ned knowing Jon's destiny. Knowing his parentage doesn't lead to knowing his fate. If that turns out to be connected to tPtwP or something similar, I doubt Ned would take it seriously. The exeption I can see is if he's eligable to be the next SotM. He clarely didn't intend on Jon taking the black, but wouldn't deny him if he was older. That implies that he didn't think there was something special in store for Jon.
I agree with sending him there without proper council. It's odd that fostering wasn't an option, at the same time it's obvious that he wants to keep his family close as no son is fostered out. Ned failing the shit test Catelyn gives him really annoys me! Still, even after going to the Wall Jon had time to decide. If Benjen had been on hand, would he council him in his decition? It's a fair question to ask.
Celibacy isn't a life for many, and Benjen is right to point out that Jon has no idea of what he's giving up. Who doesn't love sex and longs for a loving relationship, right?
With the exeption of holding back the reality of the Watch and his age, I don't see this as that much worse than any other man willingly joining. Some still do.
A good point, still not telling him who his mother was is a dick move, almost as much as Cat forcing Jon to leave Winterfell. Still he didn't intend for Jon to take the Black so what was his plan?
I agree fostering would have been great for Jon, its a common practice in the North. Plenty of Lords would be honored to foster Jon, or so I would imagine.
Benjen is so bipolar on this issue it makes me wonder. First he tells Jon they need good men like him on the Wall (true enough the Watch is in shit condition). Then Benjen goes all fatherly telling him he doesn't know what he would be giving up.
Makes you wonder what Benjen knows...
I don't think Ned had any specific plans for Jon. Ned expected to be Lord of Winterfell into his old age. What would Ned have done with Jon if Robert hadn't been plucked him from Winterfell? Perhaps Benjen's comment that Jon would never know the love of a woman indicates that Ned's plans were to arrange a marriage contract for him at some point and that Jon would become one of Rob's bannermen. That would seem to be the normal course of events. Although, the notion that Jon would be married off must have grated on Catelyn. Would Ned have to recognize Jon and make him legit to make a marriage contract? In the end, it's Catelyn who drives Jon out and Jon who makes the choice to go. I doubt there was anything that Benjen or Ned could have said to change his mind. Even when Tyrion tells him the truth of his situation; Jon still hangs onto the mystique of the place, the stories he has been told.
The Watch and the Wall are as much a Stark place as Winterfell but I doubt that Ned would have ever forced Jon to join the Watch. Jon questions why nobody told him the truth of the place. I think because Jon is not yet a man and Ned didn't consider the Wall as an option for Jon. Or at least one that he would force him into without having lived life or knowing the truth about the place.
A Game of Thrones - Catelyn II
Ned looked shocked. "He asked to join the Night's Watch?"
Catelyn said nothing. Let Ned work it out in his own mind; her voice would not be welcome now. Yet gladly would she have kissed the maester just then. His was the perfect solution. Benjen Stark was a Sworn Brother. Jon would be a son to him, the child he would never have. And in time the boy would take the oath as well. He would father no sons who might someday contest with Catelyn's own grandchildren for Winterfell.
Maester Luwin said, "There is great honor in service on the Wall, my lord."
Catelyn's big concern here is that Jon will marry and father sons. Ned's shock indicates that there never were any plans to send Jon to the Wall. Which makes me think, he planned for Jon to marry some day and Catelyn is more than happy to thwart Ned's plans for Jon.
So it seems that Ned wouldn't wish the Wall on Jon himself and I wonder if Benjen made the choice to go to the Wall as well. I'm guessing that he had more than a little drop of the wolf blood himself and perhaps was drawn there in his dreams or by frequent contact with the Watch visiting Winterfell. It seems likely to me that Benjen knew Mance before he went to the Watch.
A Dance with Dragons - Bran III
"I thought the greenseers were the wizards of the children," Bran said. "The singers, I mean."
"In a sense. Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers."
This description of the gift reminds me that Lyanna was wolf-blooded and died before her time.
On a side note; I wonder what this passage is telling us about the location of Bloodraven and Bran: eyes red as blood or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. Is Bran the moss on a tree, the green boy, the prince of the green wood?
A good point, still not telling him who his mother was is a dick move, almost as much as Cat forcing Jon to leave Winterfell. Still he didn't intend for Jon to take the Black so what was his plan?
Dick move for sure! I bitched about that in another thread not so long ago. If not the whole thruth, then at least something that was hard to speculate about. If his mother is dead, why not tell him that she died? But I won't go on a rant here!
I've speculated that he might have given Jon a holdfast in the New Gift if that plan had come to pass. Jon mentions Ned and Benjen talking of resettling it in one of his chapters (Storm I think), and maybe he would get something there in spring. Nothing concrete, but it seems like a viable option.
I agree fostering would have been great for Jon, its a common practice in the North. Plenty of Lords would be honored to foster Jon, or so I would imagine.
Agreed! Of all the Snows, I think the Stark Snows are highest in status. And with the loyalty the Ned has from most of his bannermen I'd say that wouldn't be a hard ask!
Benjen is so bipolar on this issue it makes me wonder. First he tells Jon they need good men like him on the Wall (true enough the Watch is in shit condition). Then Benjen goes all fatherly telling him he doesn't know what he would be giving up.
Makes you wonder what Benjen knows...
Haha, I thought long and hard on this rereading that chapter! My take on it is that Benjen is probing a potential, maybe getting a little suprised that Jon wants to go now. Even if he saw potential in Jon, I doubt he thought he was old enough yet. He then probes his motivations, get the standard boyish heroic dreams and clearly not answers that reflects any deeper considerations of what it really intails. He does get a bit fathering (a sideeffect of not having any (legal) children of his own?), but Jon hasn't thought this through. So he ends with giving the sound advise to live a little before joining. What stumps me is that he actually goes to Luwin with this. Why not leave it alone, or go to Ned? If indeed he did go to Luwin, that is. In any case, it plays into the hands of the red bitch and the rest is history as they say. That being said, I really want to give those two a really good and hard beating for not at the very least warning him of what the Watch truely is!
I don't think Ned had any specific plans for Jon. Ned expected to be Lord of Winterfell into his old age. What would Ned have done with Jon if Robert hadn't been plucked him from Winterfell? Perhaps Benjen's comment that Jon would never know the love of a woman indicates that Ned's plans were to arrange a marriage contract for him at some point and that Jon would become one of Rob's bannermen. That would seem to be the normal course of events. Although, the notion that Jon would be married off must have grated on Catelyn. Would Ned have to recognize Jon and make him legit to make a marriage contract? In the end, it's Catelyn who drives Jon out and Jon who makes the choice to go. I doubt there was anything that Benjen or Ned could have said to change his mind. Even when Tyrion tells him the truth of his situation; Jon still hangs onto the mystique of the place, the stories he has been told.
Most people marry when they grow up, even bastards. A legalization would make a better match, and freak the hell out of Catelyn (what I would give to see that!). I do think if someone had actually told Jon the truth, Benjen preferably as he's a brother, before he left Winterfell and everything was settled it could have changed his mind. At the Wall Jon is pretty pissed that no one told him. Getting it from Tyrion so late didn't really leave him any choice but to follow through. He couldn't go back at that time.
The Watch and the Wall are as much a Stark place as Winterfell but I doubt that Ned would have ever forced Jon to join the Watch. Jon questions why nobody told him the truth of the place. I think because Jon is not yet a man and Ned didn't consider the Wall as an option for Jon. Or at least one that he would force him into without having lived life or knowing the truth about the place.
Agreed! Making that decition as a grown man with some life behind him is one thing, practically getting kicked out at 14 quite another! Damn that cold fish!
At the feast it's clear that Jon has anything but realistic views of the Wall. And considering that it's time for Rickon to grow up at four, what does that mean for a fourteen year old going on fifteen. It might have been a harsh lesson Stark style.
Hard lessons, indeed. And Jon is a bit of a dreamer, like Sansa. And like I think Ned might have been at one time.
Jon not taking his vow is interesting! Maybe Benjen was really going to get him fostered somewhere, after spending some months growing up at the Wall?
It's just something that has always struck me. Of course, I think that Jon somehow is meant to get out of his vows, but he might not ever. His true destiny might really lie at the wall!
I need to pay more attention to Sansa it seems, she's a bit airy-fairy and my consentration suffers under that. It could be something awakening, but maybe she locked that back in after all hell broke loose? Tyrion mentions her dreaming one morning, so there could be hints like that in the text? She has something, but I'm not sure she's so wargish as her siblings are. The Whent/Lothson seems stronger in her, so it might manifest differently.
Hard to say on her warg abilities, as Lady died so early in our story. But I would believe they all had unconscious connections early on with the pups, and if there is power in bones (that should include any bones), and Lady's bones are buried at Winterfell, then there is a connection for Sansa to make, both with Lady and Winterfell.
I'm not sure I see Bittersteel having something direct to do with this round, I just haven't seen any clues to this even if the golden skull is weird - which brings to mind Viserys' golden skull in Vaes Dothrak. That's so ironic! Back to point: it could be some Bittersteel decendants that plays that part? I need to ponder this!
The more I think about it, I think the Bloodraven and Bittersteel feud is still at play. And it might not even be their fault. It might be the Blackwood and Bracken feud from way back. A tree with ravens versus a red stallion. Last night while wasting time at work and not doing outdates, I was looking over ASOIAF family and personal sigils, and the Bracken sigil about slapped me in the face. A red stallion! And then looking at Bittersteel's personal sigil, it is supposed to be a red stallion with black dragon wings that is breathing fire! Fire is the enemy of the weirwoods and the children of the forest! Could this feud between these families go back thousands of years, to the followers of the old gods and the weirwoods and the CotF versus the First Men, who came to Westeros with horses and bronze and fire! It is all just one constantly repeating cycle? Are the Stark's special because they share blood of the First Men and the CotF?
It has also made me rethink Barbrey Ryswell Dustin a bit and her endgame. The Ryswell family also have a horse head on their sigil. I wrote down a ton of notes, but this thread is probably not the place for all of this discussion.
Well, to use cannon, we only have one ice pecker as far as I know: Hizdar!
Well, that was a dream, correct. I don't think it's truly Hizdar that she is dreaming of. I used to think it was Euron. I have also considered Jon, even though I don't like the concept. The Night King 2.0, perhaps? Coldhands might have cold other parts!
Even if I do see Roose as capable of almost anything, I don't really think he pushed a hard one in Lyanna.
Gosh, I really hope not. But he is an admitted rapist, and if he seen her and wanted her, could she have stopped him? The story of the millers wife is rather chilling. If that is the case, Ned certainly doesn't know, or he would not have let the Bolton's remain in power, I wouldn't think. These are just things that have crossed my mind when thinking of worst case possible parentage theories for Jonno!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Since we never see the conversation between Jon and Ned we can only speculate. Still if Jon is special Ned abandoning him to the Wall is really fucking cruel.
It seems harsh from Jon's perspective, but we don't know what Ned was thinking, and we don't know what he might have faced at the same age as Jon. And, I don't think the Ned meant to abandon him, but I wonder sometimes if Ned ever thought he would see Jon again?
Well, most of my Lannister tinfoil is in scattered sticky notes laying around, and tucked into books, but one of these days I hope to put it all together. Until then, it will just probably trickle out in little thoughts and comments. The Ned/Cersei thing is the thing that struck me personally first of all my Lannister tinfoil, and even if they never had a child, I think that they were up to some shenanigans.
What he is meant to be? You mean what Bloodraven and the COTF want him to become.
Sure. Maybe "meant to be" is pushing it. But Bran certainly has powers, and it hard to say yet if he is on a good path or a bad path. And I do wonder about factions warring within these children, with several influences in play at the same time. Bloodraven is connected to the CotF, but is he willing or forced, and if he isn't the Three Eyed Crow, and I am pretty sure he is not, then who the heck is? Euron? Someone that is controlling Euron?
That reminds me of a fun theory that Baelish was actually slowly poisoning Lysa with sweetsleep for along time and that helps explain why Sweetrobin has such an usual tolerance for the drug.
Ah, yes, and the reason for his seizure like activity is withdrawls from the drug. I can see this as very possible!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
It's just something that has always struck me. Of course, I think that Jon somehow is meant to get out of his vows, but he might not ever. His true destiny might really lie at the wall!
Either he was never ment to take the vows, and has to come out of them; or he was ment to take them and is destined to stay? Right now I'm thinking that him being there was somewhat outside his path, but that might change tomorrow. Putting it in the simmer-pot!
Hard to say on her warg abilities, as Lady died so early in our story. But I would believe they all had unconscious connections early on with the pups, and if there is power in bones (that should include any bones), and Lady's bones are buried at Winterfell, then there is a connection for Sansa to make, both with Lady and Winterfell.
I'm not fully sold on Lady being her only chance of becoming a warg. The connection was probably instant and special compared with other animals, but I still hold to the thought that she might connect to another (more ordinary) one. Lady's bones in Winterfell would probably be some link to something when/if she gets back there.
The more I think about it, I think the Bloodraven and Bittersteel feud is still at play. And it might not even be their fault. It might be the Blackwood and Bracken feud from way back. A tree with ravens versus a red stallion. Last night while wasting time at work and not doing outdates, I was looking over ASOIAF family and personal sigils, and the Bracken sigil about slapped me in the face. A red stallion! And then looking at Bittersteel's personal sigil, it is supposed to be a red stallion with black dragon wings that is breathing fire! Fire is the enemy of the weirwoods and the children of the forest! Could this feud between these families go back thousands of years, to the followers of the old gods and the weirwoods and the CotF versus the First Men, who came to Westeros with horses and bronze and fire! It is all just one constantly repeating cycle? Are the Stark's special because they share blood of the First Men and the CotF?
Yea, the red stallion again! I'm mincing mysterymeat these days, so he has to wait until that's finished (my third parallell reread as we speak, because everybody knows I have no limitations to my abilities!). That being said, good connections there! The eternal message is eternal cycles that repeat, so it's very possible indeed that this is in play here as well.
It has also made me rethink Barbrey Ryswell Dustin a bit and her endgame. The Ryswell family also have a horse head on their sigil. I wrote down a ton of notes, but this thread is probably not the place for all of this discussion.
A) Find the right thread ASAP! B) Start a new thread ASAP!
Well, that was a dream, correct. I don't think it's truly Hizdar that she is dreaming of. I used to think it was Euron. I have also considered Jon, even though I don't like the concept. The Night King 2.0, perhaps? Coldhands might have cold other parts!
Yeah, just reread that and it was a dream. Didn't get so far as to start analyzing it though, so I haven't thought of who it might represent. Methinks Coldhands is cold most everywhere, but is he frozen solid here and there?
Rumor has it that a nicely chilled (f)pecker is rather nice, so who knows!
Seriously though, this:
I have become oddly fond of my fat little wife. The two before her never made a sound in bed, but this one squeals and shudders.I find that quite endearing.
I don't know to laugh or what reading that. That's oddly sweet comming from the mouth of Roose.
Gosh, I really hope not. But he is an admitted rapist, and if he seen her and wanted her, could she have stopped him? The story of the millers wife is rather chilling. If that is the case, Ned certainly doesn't know, or he would not have let the Bolton's remain in power, I wouldn't think. These are just things that have crossed my mind when thinking of worst case possible parentage theories for Jonno!
Well, thank you for doing the hard gross thinking for me, so I don't have to!
It seems harsh from Jon's perspective, but we don't know what Ned was thinking, and we don't know what he might have faced at the same age as Jon. And, I don't think the Ned meant to abandon him, but I wonder sometimes if Ned ever thought he would see Jon again?
As in Ned never going back north? I could see him thinking that, Cat II certainly seems to indicate a gut feeling stronger than foreboding. If he thought he was getting back home eventually (even just for a visit) I think he might have taken the time to meet Jon again. But if the former, why the hell didn't he tell Jon something about his mother!
Well, most of my Lannister tinfoil is in scattered sticky notes laying around, and tucked into books, but one of these days I hope to put it all together. Until then, it will just probably trickle out in little thoughts and comments. The Ned/Cersei thing is the thing that struck me personally first of all my Lannister tinfoil, and even if they never had a child, I think that they were up to some shenanigans.
Laying around? I'm officially convinced that you have a special stickynote-room!
That depends on Ned knowing Jon's destiny. Knowing his parentage doesn't lead to knowing his fate. If that turns out to be connected to tPtwP or something similar, I doubt Ned would take it seriously. The exeption I can see is if he's eligable to be the next SotM. He clarely didn't intend on Jon taking the black, but wouldn't deny him if he was older. That implies that he didn't think there was something special in store for Jon.
Benjen is so bipolar on this issue it makes me wonder. First he tells Jon they need good men like him on the Wall (true enough the Watch is in shit condition). Then Benjen goes all fatherly telling him he doesn't know what he would be giving up.
Makes you wonder what Benjen knows...
I think that is the crux.
Benjen knows what is happening beyond the Wall. Ned also knows having it heard from Gared. Benjen must have explained to Ned the meaning of Gared's ramblings. In the meantime Jon has acquired an extremely rare pet and even more so, a uniquely extremely rare pet. Seniors at the Wall are keen to have Jon and Ghost with them:
Jon had to hurry his steps to keep up with Qhorin's long strides. "Lord Rickard died before I was born." "He was a friend to the Watch." Qhorin glanced behind. "It is said that a direwolf runs with you." "Ghost should be back by dawn. He hunts at night."
Qhorin Halfhand turned his head. His eyes met Jon's, and held them for a long moment. "Very well. I choose Jon Snow." Mormont blinked. "He is hardly more than a boy. And my steward besides. Not even a ranger."
"Tollett can care for you as well, my lord." Qhorin lifted his maimed, two-fingered hand. "The old gods are still strong beyond the Wall. The gods of the First Men . . . and the Starks."
note that Qhorin does not address Mormont's concern about Jon's experience. But he justifies his choice by mentioning the strength beyond the Wall of the Old Gods - Ghost - and the Starks - Jon.
Benjen and Qhorin were of one mind when discussing the rise of the Others.
It does appear that Benjen arranged for Jon to go to the Watch.
Perhaps even Tyrion noticed that, hence spilled the beans to Jon on the way there.
It seems harsh from Jon's perspective, but we don't know what Ned was thinking, and we don't know what he might have faced at the same age as Jon. And, I don't think the Ned meant to abandon him, but I wonder sometimes if Ned ever thought he would see Jon again?
quite likely. But it could have been just as much because Ned never thought he would himself get out of KL alive.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
Benjen knows what is happening beyond the Wall. Ned also knows having it heard from Gared. Benjen must have explained to Ned the meaning of Gared's ramblings. In the meantime Jon has acquired an extremely rare pet and even more so, a uniquely extremely rare pet. Seniors at the Wall are keen to have Jon and Ghost with them:
Jon had to hurry his steps to keep up with Qhorin's long strides. "Lord Rickard died before I was born." "He was a friend to the Watch." Qhorin glanced behind. "It is said that a direwolf runs with you." "Ghost should be back by dawn. He hunts at night."
Qhorin Halfhand turned his head. His eyes met Jon's, and held them for a long moment. "Very well. I choose Jon Snow." Mormont blinked. "He is hardly more than a boy. And my steward besides. Not even a ranger."
"Tollett can care for you as well, my lord." Qhorin lifted his maimed, two-fingered hand. "The old gods are still strong beyond the Wall. The gods of the First Men . . . and the Starks."
note that Qhorin does not address Mormont's concern about Jon's experience. But he justifies his choice by mentioning the strength beyond the Wall of the Old Gods - Ghost - and the Starks - Jon.
Benjen and Qhorin were of one mind when discussing the rise of the Others.
It does appear that Benjen arranged for Jon to go to the Watch.
Perhaps even Tyrion noticed that, hence spilled the beans to Jon on the way there.
Good point! I forgot that part to some degree. I've always thought Benjen wanted Jon at the Wall, the part I'm not so sure about is if he wanted him right now or not. That would depend on how much time he thought they had, as I do think he was sincere about Jon living a little before making any decision like that. Benjen had joined at a similar tender age and would know.
So, looking a bit closer at the timeline here. Benjen and Jon talks the first evening, and Cat and Luwin gangs up on Ned later the same night, right? If so, did Benjen have time to talk with Ned about this first or not? I don't think so. Ned mentions that he will talk to Benjen before speaking with Jon, and if that is the case maybe this is when they discuss what Gared said and what's happening beyond the Wall? To me it didn't sound like Ned sent a summary of what Gared said with his head (Mormont's comment to Jon later), and I doubt they would take this via ravens. Three days after getting back to the Wall Benjen sets out on his final mission (in a party of seven, by the way), and I suspect he wanted to look for clues/proof as well as Waymar before talking to Mormont. Did they meet a party of three?
Hauling myself back to a relevant point here before I get lost in a rabbithole, I think it could be a case of all the above reasons. The part I'm left with is if Ned would force Jon to take the black, and I'm inclined to say no. It would (and should) be up to Jon himself, and I think Ned thought that as well. I need to reread Tyrion's chapters on the way to the Wall before I can say anything about that part, but in any case it was good that someone said something to Jon about what he should expect. That part really gets my blood boiling!
If so, did Benjen have time to talk with Ned about this first or not?
i am not sure whether that actually matters. There is no Benjen POV but they, Ben and Ned, could have found 10 minutes somewhere in the day.
GRRM certainly had planned for Jon to be at the Wall. And Benjen's visit to Winterfel is the catalyst for this since he takes him, Jon, back to the Wall with him.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
If so, did Benjen have time to talk with Ned about this first or not?
i am not sure whether that actually matters. There is no Benjen POV but they, Ben and Ned, could have found 10 minutes somewhere in the day.
GRRM certainly had planned for Jon to be at the Wall. And Benjen's visit to Winterfel is the catalyst for this since he takes him, Jon, back to the Wall with him.
Anyone else find it really curious that Benjen and Ned NEVER share a scene together? Its almost like there is some estrangement better them.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
i am not sure whether that actually matters. There is no Benjen POV but they, Ben and Ned, could have found 10 minutes somewhere in the day.
GRRM certainly had planned for Jon to be at the Wall. And Benjen's visit to Winterfel is the catalyst for this since he takes him, Jon, back to the Wall with him.
I'd say a conversation about that would take a bit more than 10 minutes, honestly. My main impression is that Ned had other plans for him with the Wall as a viable option if he wanted to. Luwin might have planted some Wall-seeds though.
Martin has that pesky authors privilege: if he wants a character somewhere, he puts them there. Unless one's name is Catelyn that is, as she had a mind of her own...
Anyone else find it really curious that Benjen and Ned NEVER share a scene together? Its almost like there is some estrangement better them.
It is odd! Though, I'm kinda glad Benjen didn't join the gang up on Ned. That scene is icky enough! You really can wonder when reading passages as these:
Benjen Stark frowned. "A boy you are, and a boy you'll remain until Ser Alliser says you are fit to be a man of the Night's Watch. If you thought your Stark blood would win you easy favors, you were wrong. We put aside our old families when we swear our vows. Your father will always have a place in my heart, but these are my brothers now." He gestured with his dagger at the men around them, all the hard cold men in black.
Don't remember Ned's reaction to learn Ben is missing off the top of my head. Need to check that out!
Haha, you refuse to let the Arya one go, don't you!
I'm stubborn like that, but I did give it a 0.001% chance of being correct!
So, I caught this last night while rereading. Something Catelyn says to Stannis before the parley with Renly near Storm's End
How they loved to promise heads, these men who would be king. "Your brother promised me the same. But if truth be told, I would sooner have my daughters back, and leave justice to the gods. Cersei still holds my Sansa, and of Arya there has been no word since the day of Robert's death." ACOK-Catelyn III
It is "my Sansa" and just "Arya". Granted, the line before this Cat's calls them both "my daughters", but the "my Sansa" stands out to me in Stark contrast to the "Arya" with no possessive applied to it. Maybe on some level Cat wonders/"knows" that Arya is not a child of her blood?
It's still incredibly tinfoily, but my percentage just inched up to 0.002%!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
I'm not fully sold on Lady being her only chance of becoming a warg. The connection was probably instant and special compared with other animals, but I still hold to the thought that she might connect to another (more ordinary) one. Lady's bones in Winterfell would probably be some link to something when/if she gets back there.
Well, I do think that Lady being buried in Winterfell actually gives Sansa a connection to Winterfell that the rest of her siblings don't have, once they become scattered and lost. As to Sansa's abilities, there are some incidents that make me wonder if Sansa has some warg/skinchanger like connections. One that I can think of off the top of my head is the black dog that is nosing around Joffrey as he chokes to death. And later, Sansa seems to have some recollections of Joffrey's death that she should not have, since she fled before he actually died. I am to lazy and too tired to look that passage up right now, so I might be remembering that wrong.
Yea, the red stallion again! I'm mincing mysterymeat these days, so he has to wait until that's finished (my third parallell reread as we speak, because everybody knows I have no limitations to my abilities!). That being said, good connections there! The eternal message is eternal cycles that repeat, so it's very possible indeed that this is in play here as well.
It hadn't occurred to me until recently that if Bloodraven is involved, then it just seems to have some type of narrative beauty to have Bittersteel involved as well. But I don't know if they even ever had a chance not to be rivals, since their mothers come from rival families in the riverlands. And if Bloodraven and Bittersteel, a white tree with ravens and a red stallion are involved, then Shiera, the pot stirrer between them might be involved too. For those of you who think that Quaithe is Shiera, I had been pretty sure she was Ashara, but I am considering the possibility that Shiera is still in the picture, stirring the pot somewhere. And if so, is she playing the most manipulative role of all?
A) Find the right thread ASAP! B) Start a new thread ASAP!
Yes, I need to work it all out in my head, and then write something up. The red stallion, the Brackens, Bittersteel, maybe the Ryswell connection, the Dothraki horselords, Dany's silver almost a contrast to Drogo's red! There are other houses with horse sigils, for instance, House Casewell with two centaur's on the sigil. It seems it all must be connected. There are other houses with horse sigil's too, but I have not had a chance to think about them.
I don't know to laugh or what reading that. That's oddly sweet comming from the mouth of Roose.
Oh, gosh, Roose is a creepy fooker but he has some fabulous and chilling and downright funny one-liner's. "Don't make me regret raping your mother" and human skin making inferior boots, etc!
Well, thank you for doing the hard gross thinking for me, so I don't have to!
I would hate it if Jon has Bolton blood. Eesh! But Sam is the one with pale eyes, and while I have often associated that to Viserys with pale lilac eyes, it could also be pale Bolton eyes, like chips of dirty ice.
As in Ned never going back north? I could see him thinking that, Cat II certainly seems to indicate a gut feeling stronger than foreboding. If he thought he was getting back home eventually (even just for a visit) I think he might have taken the time to meet Jon again. But if the former, why the hell didn't he tell Jon something about his mother!
I don't think Ned could tell Jon. Maybe this is one of the promises he kept to Lyanna? As for the Neddard returning north, I don't really think he ever thought he would see Winterfell again. He said a silent goodbye with tears in his eyes, he thought Robb would be lord from the time that he left to go to Kings Landing. I think that Ned had a dreamer moment after he resigned as Hand, that he had a chance to get out of this mess in Kings Landing, but on some level, I think he knew. Did Catelyn, though?