1.8 Bran II

There is probably not a lot in this chapter that hints at many of the XYZ puzzles, but there are a few odd statements about parents. Maybe those are trying to tell us something.

Several times in this chapter, Bran mentions Catelyn's fear of Bran falling. It's a repeated theme.

So, his climbing was discussed more than once between he and Cat, and she always remained "terrified" he would fall.

So, when Summer react's in a negative manner about Bran starting to climb, Bran associates the behavior with Catelyn. Which is fine. Cat doesn't like Bran climbing, but why does Summer react like this? Bran feels a chill go through him. Is this a similar chill to when Jon feels a coldness pass through him in Jon I, when Tyrion calls him Ned Stark's bastard? Ghost was with Jon at this time. If so, is it the direwolves that are associated with this chill or coldness? I have never noticed this similarity until now.

So, we get an Old Nan story, and a Maester Luwin story, the guards chasing Bran across the roofs. So, when Cat's entreaty to Ned failed (she didn't win every battle), she convinced other's in the castle to help her to convince him not to fall, or to catch him when he was caught climbing.

I think that Catelyn has some type of premonition, an ability for sight, that helps her know what might occur. I think she had it with Bran and his climbing/fall situation, and also about Jon and his claim to Winterfell. What I am not sure about it if Catelyn always had this ability, or it was awakened when she came north, or if it was awakened by motherhood. I think it's in the Tully genes, and I think Lysa has it too, but I am curious what awakened it in these Tully women, or it they always had the ability?

It certainly seems to related to Catelyn's children. To Bran, whom she already plead with Ned that Bran be allowed to stay with her at Winterfell? But also to Jon, who is not her child. Though she sees him as a threat to her children and their claim to Winterfell. Would she feel this way about any bastard of Ned's raised at Winterfell, though, or just Jon? And is it because of his blood, or because of the fact that he was raised at Winterfell?

Another interesting connection between Bran and a parent is this recollection about Ned.

So, Ned and Cat most definitely have different parenting styles, and it seems Ned was more willing to let the nature of his children shine on than Catelyn does. While Bran knows that Ned is angry, it is his father's laughter that he focuses on. But what strikes me is that Ned says to Bran, "You are not my son". I am not going to claim that Ned isn't Bran's bio-father, but this line is interesting. Ned claims that Bran is a squirrel. And when I think of creatures that are associated with squirrel's in this story (Arya also has a squirrel theme), I think of the children of the forest. So, could this instinct in Bran to climb come from some genetic bond with the CotF, some actual dna from centuries ago, or a more resent injection? And what does it mean?

When Bran starts to be aware of his wolf dreams, he reports that often in these dreams that Summer is hunting and killing squirrels. Is Summer trying to tell us something by this? If the direwolves are set up as opposed to squirrels, which I am associating with the children, it does make me curious how many supernatural gifts might be fighting within these children. So, does that mean that the CotF have blessed these children with "gifts" but maybe the direwolves have nothing to do with the CotF? Are the old gods with or against the CotF, or maybe the direwolves are not a gift from the old gods at all? Maybe it just indicates that the direwolves are young and hunt small prey, and as they get larger they hunt larger animals, and I am overthinking this all!

Another interesting idea about parents is in a passage between Cersei and Jaime.


So, Jaime says this in response to Lysa Arryn, who we will soon see does have some madness to her, but also seems to include Cersei in this statement. Does he think that Cersei has some mad tendencies? But what really struck me was about Jaime's possible relationship with his own mother Joanna. Did Jaime in some way think that his mother had a hint of madness? I know this has nothing to do with an XYZ puzzle, because no matter who Jaime's bio-father is (Tywin or Aerys), it's a pretty safe bet that Joanna Lannister is his mother. He laughs at this, but Bran thinks it has a bitter sound. Why does speaking of madness and mothers bring out a bitterness in Jaime?


I am only including this passage because I noted that Jaime is referred to as "very strong". Jon is also very strong at times. I have some crazy tinfoil that links Jon to the Lannister family. I do think there is something very off in Ned and Cersei's interactions with each other, and it would not surprise me to find out they had been lovers. Now, Jaime tells us he has only ever slept with Cersei, so that takes him out of Jon's possible parentage, but could it be possible that Cersei bore Ned a bastard at sometime? Also doubtful, since she seems to think of herself has haven bore only three children, her's of golden hair, fitting the Maggy the Frog prophecy, even though she could have had more pregnancies, just like the one pregnancy by Robert that she comments on. But she would still know if those pregnancies went full term and resulted in a child.

But what about Tywin, or another Lannister. There is the very interesting theory (by SlyWren , I think) that it was Tywin to who orchestrated Lyanna's kidnapping, and Tywin has often had the help of Kevan and possibly other brothers. Could one of those Lannister's be Jon's father? This is also very, very doubtful, and honestly, I see Ned has having great strength as well but I am trying to leave no stone unturned.



My None Parentage Tinfoil for this chapter is the references to the First Keep and the broken tower.


I actually question when this might have really happened to the broken tower, and was it really lightening that caused it. Another thing that might have causes lightening like fire, and left ash in it's wake is dragons!!! Dun dun dun!

After Ramsay's men set fire to Winterfell, we see a similar description for the First Keep, which is crowned by gargoyles. Broken stones and mortar, fire set to the roof, one side of the tower collapsed. I think that it is very possible that a dragon escaped from Winterfell at that time. I suppose it's also possible that there was a dragon attack, but I don't see it that way personally. What exactly did happen to the First Keep during the fire of Winterfell, and was it the same thing that caused the damage to the broken tower? And what did the broken tower look like before, and what was it called before it was broken?

Haha, Ned and/or Jon would become the ritchest man/men in Westeros if they told for a fee! And I fear that this is one conversation we will never hear... In the show, the last words between Ned and Jon was so moving, and I was so disappointed that we didn't get anything similar in the books. Didn't expect any juicy information, just something.
And yes, Jon gets bitter that not even Ned told him the truth about the Watch.


I do want to slap Ned, reading this! He really should've given Jon the truth before sending him off, but on the other side it had been made clear that Jon had to go somewhere.



I was 15 the first time I left home for a year, and I was really thrilled to go but the tears wasn't that far off in the car.
The thing I think sets Jon a part here, is that I see Cat pushing him out and I think he clearly felt it. So even if he wanted to go, there is an underlying bitterness.


Haha! I do see the point with the face! Reading this back to back with Bran in the CotF cave on the other hand (pun not intended) it stands in a different light. Now I'm more unable to see this passage any other way. Also, after his fall and vision quest where he sees the tree as an entity (not going into who that was here), he is comfortable with it.

It is, and I wonder if it could also be in a metaphorical sense. In this chapter he's pushed by Jamie, but later he is also pushed down by Theon. Not just from the highseat in Winterfell, but into the crypts and the underworld.


Yeah, that really twists my gut when reading. Did Catelyn's "paranoia" cause Bran not to pay attention to Summer here? Their bond isn't fully developed yet, so that could be the cause, but also I think Bran at this stage was too far down the ignore-any-attempts-of-hindering-climbing-path.

Good catch with the chill! I need to remember to pay attention to these!
The potential connection with the direwolves made me think of Dany, her dragons and Quaithe's statement that the dragons remember who she is. Does the direwolves have a similar knowing? Jon mentions Ghost looking at him knowingly later on.


Could it be something that awakened in her teenage years? Something about her memories of Brandon and what happened to him really buggs me! In particular her reaction in the dungeons with Jamie. Did she feel anything similar at the time? A sense of doom?
If there is something here that awakens in the teens, we should start seeing something with Sansa soon!


I get the sense that Catelyn only lived for her children at Winterfell, so maybe that is why she's so focused on her children in these feelings/premonitions? It seems like she had some sort of bad feeling with Ned going south when she wonderes if she'll ever see him again, but if so was that something that came in that moment? If not, why was she so determent to get him south, if she really loved him? Was she willing to sacrifice him for status?
Hard to say if it would include any bastard raised at Winterfell or if Jon would be a special case.


Aw, I just love Ned's reaction here!
Huh, I hadn't connected sqirrels with CotF, but an interesting thought! Could the fight point to a fight between different factions that wants to use Bran? As I'm not convinced that Bloodraven is the 3EC or that he has the same end goal as the CotF, I think this image was really interesting! And if this is the case, is Bloodraven the last in a long line of human greenseers that forms a separate faction from the children's greenseers?
I need to look more into this too!


Ha, Lysa is a wee bit madder than just "some" imo, she's bat shit crasy!
I do think Jamie has seen Cersei's crazyness for a long time, but chose to look past it in his shadow life. Having just reread Jamie's dream about his mother, I do think there is some suppressed feelings there. Cersei and Tywin takes this feeling of loss out on Tyrion (never really dealing with it, but it gets a way out), but Jamie seems to just lock it inside out of sight. Similar to the way he never really deals with the stuff that happened at the end of the rebellion.
I'm not sure how much he saw of mothers and motherhood after loosing his own, but in the Red Keep it might be that he got the best look at Cersei and Lysa, and that would color his view I think. In that case motherhood=maddness is not a great leap to take! In his dream in Feast he notes that he barely remembers his mother. That might be the case, or that he's suppressed them after she died. Clearly he's pained by her loss.
Not really sure where I'm going with this, so I'll just stop rambling...


It might be that Ned had carnal knowledge of Cersei (gods, that is a disgusting thought!), but I don't think it ended in a child. Not sure I want to know more...


This is a possibility. Not sure if it's a big one, but has to be taken into consideration if there are any clues.


This I have to get back to, as I'm currently pondering towers as well.

Cat was mad, Lysa madder, and Cersei the maddest of them all. 



Yes I am enjoying these discussions more than I would have thought, but it does feel like I'm cheating without reading the book. I will crack them open later this week.

Isn't it interesting how all of Jon's father figures/male role models keep dying/disappearing. Seriously how many Obi-Wan's has he had: Ned, Benjen, Jeor, Qhorin, Mance...

I do admit I have a hard time thinking that Ned outright lied to Jon. It might have been more of an evasion of the truth from Eddard. And he might have felt it was the only way to keep Jon safe. I don't know how to justify it, but there is no doubt that Jon is hurt by wondering if his father knew what life at the wall was really like. And Ned might not have, although he isn't stupid, but he might not have really understood how dire things were at the wall. But Benjen sure as heck did, and he neither warns Jon nor gives him any sympathy, either on the journey or once they are at the wall. Maybe the Stark's just really view the hardship as part of their duty to the north!


Thanks. I see several things in Jon that remind me of the Lannister's. I am probably crazy, but I am not afraid to be wrong about these type of things. I just see what I see. Maybe sometimes I see what I want to see, though. This business is tricky! 

I don't really see how Ned could NOT know. But as Benjen seems to enjoy his life at the Wall, maybe he thought that it wasn't that bad?
As for Benjen, I might have to revise my earlier statement. It seems like he did go straight into the Stark line of time to grow up. At the feast it's clear that Jon has anything but realistic views of the Wall. And considering that it's time for Rickon to grow up at four, what does that mean for a fourteen year old going on fifteen. It might have been a harsh lesson Stark style.


Haha! "Son, with me and Ice gone, you'll be dead within a fortnight. And Robb is too young to take his mother's head." Seems a bit harsh! Difficult to say if he said anything, but he might have. We don't get anything directly, but there might have been a hint from Ned that Catelyn was at the heart of it. Jon does brood a bit on her (and with good reason).

Jon not taking his vow is interesting! Maybe Benjen was really going to get him fostered somewhere, after spending some months growing up at the Wall? The Umbers is well placed if Benjen was supposed to keep an eye out for him later on. Or maybe the hill clans? If so, he would know what it would mean if he later decided to take the black, which Ned doesn't seem to mind.


Thanks! Come to think of it, we have Bran the thrice fallen! And he probably did need to fall, at least as the events would've taken him south. If not, I'm not sure how his fate would turn out. It's one of those what-if's that is really hard to see turning out differently.
Damn, I need to get that numerology-thread going! I've seen so many three's over the weekend I can't believe I missed.


I know! It bleeds off on my other rereads as well! I need more brains!


Thanks! I do think Ghost knows exactly who Jon is, including his parentage.


Haha, you refuse to let the Arya one go, don't you!
I need to pay more attention to Sansa it seems, she's a bit airy-fairy and my consentration suffers under that. It could be something awakening, but maybe she locked that back in after all hell broke loose? Tyrion mentions her dreaming one morning, so there could be hints like that in the text? She has something, but I'm not sure she's so wargish as her siblings are. The Whent/Lothson seems stronger in her, so it might manifest differently.


I know! I'm planning to mince that fish, just not sure of what format I want yet. Aaaaaaand all the other things I'm looking into now has absolutely no effect in me putting it off. Again. Her chapters are just so damn hard to tolerate without braindamage.


I'm not sure I see Bittersteel having something direct to do with this round, I just haven't seen any clues to this even if the golden skull is weird - which brings to mind Viserys' golden skull in Vaes Dothrak. That's so ironic! Back to point: it could be some Bittersteel decendants that plays that part?
I need to ponder this!
Sidenote: Bloodravens ghosts, with the brother he loved. What if that was Daemon and he had to kill him?


Oh, that was TMI for sure! Makes me gag every time! How did Martin manage to write that?!?


You do ask the best questions! Who is the worst mother?
Well, to use cannon, we only have one ice pecker as far as I know: Hizdar!
Maybe Roose also has one? Could that be the reason for all the noises Fat Walda makes?
Even if I do see Roose as capable of almost anything, I don't really think he pushed a hard one in Lyanna.