Salty trout - dissecting Catelyn II, GOT

Part two: Jon



I chose to start Jon's bit with this quote, as it's part of setting the stage for Jon entering the discussion.
Until now she's been focused on her own family, securing the victory for her children's sake as she puts it. I know this has a lot of salt in it, but whatever I think of Catelyn I don't doubt she loves her children very much. I won't pretend to have all the pieces of her plan nailed down yet, maybe I never will, but obviously what she had in mind didn't pan out. She's upset because she will be separated from her family. That Jon isn't on her mind until now isn't that suprising to me. After all:


But her feelings about Jon is strong. I wonder if she always has this reaction to the mere mention of Jon's name and Ned has a corresponding reaction to that, or if it has to do with this particular situation. I wouldn't be suprised if this is the norm, but I don't rule out that it's the latter.

We all know her version of his backstory, but I'll put it under a spoilertag for those that want to refresh themselves. I only use the last part here.



So Jon has been a problem as long as Catelyn has been at Winterfell with resentment ever growing, and she's tried several times to get him out. Tolerating him while Ned is here is one thing, but if she has to stay behind Jon has to go.
That Jon's resemblance to his father is so hard on her is very interesting; she might not use the word, but I read anger in the last bolded part. And that includes his looks. So is it anger for the infidelity (if indeed that is what she thinks) or that he broke protocoll by taking him into his own household? Or is it more than that?
It's a bit hard to say how much of what takes place this night is preplanned or taking an opportunity, but I'd say it's a combination.


Cutting out the backstory to look only at what transpires between the three, I'm inclined to think she wanted Jon out of Winterfell in any case. Basically getting him away from her family at last. So even if this was something she'd wanted for a long time, this seems to be the first opportunity for her to twist Ned's arm.


...hoped they'd grow up close as brothers? Is that what you was going to say, Ned?
I will give her credit for telling the truth here. Her feelings about Jon wasn't a secret and she was forced to tolerate him, but at least she made herself clear here and now instead of promising anything she won't keep. Not to say I like her wanting to kick Jon out, but I don't think Jon's life at Winterfell would be very good if he'd stayed. And I do understand the difficulty of living in a painfull/hard situation that you are unable to change.
Now, she doesn't mention any alternative for the boy, and Ned automatically thinks of him going down south with him. So Ned seems to want Jon either with him or at his seat. You could argue that she didn't have an alternative in mind at this moment, but it could also be that she knew Ned needed a little vent here. As they've had many conversations andarguments of this before, she might have learned that bulldozing over him here would be a bad idea. The difference this time is that Ned's position is weakened as he's going away. So far he's had full control over Winterfell and what goes on under his roof. But I also want to keep in mind that we can't always control a conversation, so this might be a tangent.


Her comment about Robert tickles my mind, as there can be a few reasons for her saying that.
First, it's an obvious burn, not just toward Robert but Ned as well. Secondly, as she's a bit emotional at this stage, it could be her lashing out in a more controlled manner. Later we see her putting a sharp tongue in action, but she notes that and she doesn't do that here. At the very least she manages to keep some control. The third option is that she isn't immune to Ned's feelings, and that she has been persuaded by that before. Armoring her heart agains his appeal indicates this. The last reason I see is that she's provoking Ned to lash out. Partly as a defence as mentioned, but also to stear Ned's thinking. It's probably not the first time he's really provoked like this and on this topic, but this time she has the upper hand.
Luwin butting in here is interesting. Firstly as we get more of a timeframe here. My headcannon keeps putting this the night of the welcomming feast, but if Benjen came after talking to Jon that isn't the case. A good reminder!
As far as to make some way here, there really needed to be another alternative at the table. Ned and Catelyn is more or less locked in opposition here, Cat refusing to have him there and Ned unwilling to take him down south. Ned was about to start what might have been a long monologue of the gods only know what*, and I wouldn't be suprised if Cat had been dragged into that considering her strong feelings on the matter.
* Something I'd love to hear, to be honest! Mayhaps some juicy cernels of knowledge would be gained.
But was this something Luwin tossed out unexpectedly for Catelyn as well? That I'm not so sure about. The more the situation is locked, the better chance for Ned to need, see and consider a third way. So, manipulation is still on the table for me.


Ned seems shocked here, but Catelyn does not in my eyes. Her gratefullness towards the maester certainly can be interpreted as something she hadn't thought about, but there are other options as well. If she and Ned was headed down in an argument that leads nowhere, Luwin stops that in the tracks. But more importantly, how would Ned take such a suggestion if it came from her? Her thoughts indicate that would be the worst thing she could have said. They've probably discussed all other options a thousand times before as well, and while Ned might be more inclined to agree to a fostering or something similar now, this doesn't really solve her main problem we now learn of: her fear of Jon or his offspring making a claim on Winterfell. The Watch solves this in one stroke, so is this really something she's never considered? I highly doubt that!
And again I go back to the fact that this is a highly emotional topic and situation, and Cat is an emotional person. I think she'd be able to keep her emotions in check in public, but this is a private setting where this is easier to let lose. In particular if this is an old fight with no apparent solution Ned would agree to and she'd be satisfied with. Seeing that she keeps her cool here and not drive Ned in the opposite direction, I see the possibility that she knew a better solution would come on the table.
If indeed some days have gone by, and Benjen came to Luwin soon after the feast, it's possible he in turn mentioned it to Catelyn. As he knew the situation very well I don't see this as a far reach. «His was the perfect solution» is a little vague statemen; who is «he» and when was it proposed? That might be Benjen, but as said earlier I think this has crossed her mind more than once before. Luwin is a better choice, but it could very well be something going back years for all we know.
And of course, the question has to be asked: Is this part of the victory she had to secure for her children?


My take on Ned here is that he wanted a good future for Jon, and was worried his bastard status would hinder that. We see a bit of stigma tied to bastards in this story. His wish for closeness between Jon and Robb might boil down to this, as a tight relationship with the future Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North would probably be a huge advantage for Jon. As the highest authority in the region the Lord's oppinion has a lot of weight and could smooth things out with the other important houses. But I digress!
I do think Ned had some plans for Jon, like giving him a holdfast in the New Gift if that was to be resettled, but still wanted him to make his own decissions. And if Jon chose to take the black at a later date, that wouldn't be a problem. His main problem seems to be the fact that Jon is very young, and as we see glimpses of here and there, Jon still has a bit of growing up to do mentally. I bet Ned had noticed that. I think this distinction is good to have in mind.


Honestly, I don't agree with Luwin here, as I see Jon's road as harder than theirs. And yes, I do keep in mind what will happen. Here I separate circumstances that can be influenced and/or avoided, and legal framework that binds the Watch to a lifetime of service.
But what does Catelyn keep silent about here, triggered by that comment and the thought of her children? Again I'm puzzeled by her notion that she'll lose them. Is it that premonition I mentioned earlier? Her pain of being separated from them and how unfair that is? That she's had to live with her husband's bastard all these years? I really have no idea, and can't really narrow it down to form a conclution.


Interesting picture at the start here: Ned is almost consulting Winterfell and the cold air about his decision here. In the end, it does seem like the best solution; even though I'm very tempted to make an argument for fostering Jon somewhere instead. That Ned never seems to see this as an option is interesting, and not only for Jon but for Robb and Bran as well. He wants his family close at hand. However, that would be another digression, so I will hold my tongue. He might have thought Jon's own wish should count for something, and it would ease Catelyn's fears if he knew about those; maybe that is what convinced him in the end?
It is interesting that he wants to talk to Jon himself. Also that Luwin wants them to do it together, for that matter. Is that because of what he (for now) plans on saying? Is it that he doesn't want Luwin to interject anything in the conversation, and if so why is that? Or it might be as simple as Ned thinking this as a private conversation between father and son.



Ok, it's time to start sum up what can be found here, try to tie some strings together so it's not just a tangled ball of threads that could be anything.

One of the reasons I found this chapter off is the seeming cooincidences that takes place in the room, so I thought that warranted a closer look. And the impression I was left with was a nearly perfect storm that lead to Ned making the decision he did.
Let's start with Luwin getting the box and finding the letter.
As I've pointed out, it sounds like he got the box earlier in the day. Most naps are taken in the afternoon or even around midday, so he's probably has had some time here. Still, he comes after Ned and Catelyn has retired for the day with instructions of not to be disturbed. With the king there it might have been a bit difficult to get the two of them alone, but not impossible to do. That is if he needed both of them to read it at the same time. A good argument for that is he might have suspected what the content was, and so thought it best to do at the end of the day. After all, the delivery screams bad news, and coming from Lysa it's easy to think it has to do with Arryn and/or his death. The other side to this is that he actually took Catelyn to the side and showed her the note. She's not a stupid, so the same conclutions would be easy to see for her too. A third option is to beg a word with Ned at the end of the day before they go to sleep, as maester it could be easy to come up with a legitimate excuse. This makes me a bit suspicious of him choosing this time to come unexpectedly.
Ned's routine is probably well known, so what is going on with his arrival? Coming almost right after they finished is a bit too discreet and mindfull for me, while the few minutes that passed before the knock looks like just enough time to get to the door after Ned opened the windows. It's too sweet. To me, if this really was a coincidence it would be much better if he'd come during the sex, well into a fight or even after it was finished. So the question becomes how he knew what was happening in the room, and the most logical answer is that he was told and it was deliberate.

Ned was really distracted when Luwin arrived, so here's a recap of how that went down. First Ned wants to say no to the offer, and Catelyn's argument is that saying no would put them in danger. As said, she has a point but Ned is far from unaware of the power a king has and the potential peril therein. Considering how his father and brother died, I doubt Ned hadn't taken this into consideration. After a few days one would think Ned had observed enough to think he could risk it, or at least discuss it with him. Even Cersei thought Ned would say no, so to me it seems like it really was an option. Maybe not the best in terms of their relationship, but I just can't see Robert cutting down Ned for that. Mayhaps that is naive, but thereæs where I stand for now.
Catelyn thinks the offer and the king's visit is an honor, and in reality it is. But not in Ned's eyes as he has no interest in those things. This too sounds like it's a topic that has been argued about a few times at least, with Cat's anger. As she already is the wife of a Lord Paramount, there really is only one place to rise higher in social status: King's Landing with an important appointment and marrying a daughter to the crown prince. And I won't rule out any sibling rivalry, as her younger sister rose higher than herself. That could also be a factor. Disatisfaction in the north is also a big part I think, as we get pretty hammered in her first chapter and the beginning of this how out of place she feels here. Ned is more concerned with Joffrey as a person it seems, even though we never learn what he wanted to say, when it comes to Sansa's future husband, and her young age. Methinks Lyanna came to his mind here.
Brandon is brought up, and with him all those memories and feelings. This isn't really said out of context and could be a legitimate argument from Cat; girls being betrothed at a young age isn't unusual. So Ned thinking of his dead brother might be of his own making, but with the situation as it is and the memories Cat must know it brings up I hold open the possibility that she knew where his thoughts would end up.

In this context we get Luwin's longwinded explanation of how he got the letter. Of course that could be litterary suspense-making, but Catelyn's thoughts on how Ned gets irritated and hates these things makes me suspicious. I think Luwin knew this as well, and still dragged it out. Now, I'm not saying that the whole conversation was rehearsed, but that it sounded somewhat fake. It was from that part onwards my suspicions started to rise.
Looking at Catelyn picking up the letter, I point back to what I've said the delivery indicates. Also she knows her sister; even if they've not seen each other for a long time and Lysa has gone a bit mad, from the moment the seal is recognized "grief" isn't what I would expect in the letter. Obviously there is something more, and Ned seems to think so too. And when he reacts pointing to her grief, she then denies it and points to the delivery and danger. Which is obvious from the start. That smells of manipulation!
Her use of nakedness was the first red flag to me. We don't hear of any reaction when she first lets the furs drop, but that doesn't mean there wasn't. By Ned's question here, he might be most focused on why she reacts like she does. If that was the end of it, I wouldn't have thought more about it. Instead she gets out of bed, is flippant to Ned questioning her before claiming no room for false modesty. All to burn a letter seemingly in haste in a fire she rarely needs, and written in a supposed secret language. I don't see the haste in burning it to the point of prancing around naked, or any logic in her defence of doing it. It doesn't make sense to me! Like I said, there is no kingsmen outside the door listening for any trace of treason.
That Ned is distraught of these news is natural, and then Luwin steps in pushing all his right buttons. At the very least Luwin and Catelyn are on the same page, and seems to have talked about this beforehand. It's too coordinated to me.

As for Jon, I see that as part of a two-fold plan. Securing her children's future with southron connections, and eliminating the threat that she thinks he represents. As I doubt she's never considered that as an option, I'm not so sure she was that suprised when it came up. She could never suggest it herself, and she wisely keeps her mouth shut after it it. I'm not sure how this would've gone down without Jon's own interest, but that is seeds that could've been sowed earlier. The interest could come from Luwin, in a situation where he's out of place which probably was hightened by hormones flowing in the system. Usually not an easy time, 14.

All in all, I find it hard to see this as anything but a set-up. Maybe Ned would've come to similar conclutions in the end without any prodding, but that doesn't exclude any manipulation on this night.



Crackpot and speculations

There are several things here you can speculate on, and here I will just let my mind flow. Questions that pop up, any connections to other things in the text etc. As I don't really have any clear view on this yet, many will be left open ended for your own speculations.

Delivery of the letter
Luwin gives us his version of how he got it, but there are room to speculate. With the exeption of what we learn here, we only hear that Lysa sent it to Catelyn at Winterfell with no more details that I have found. The story implies that Littlefinger arranged for someone in the king's party to deliver the box to Luwin's turret in secret, and that might very well be the case. But some questions still arise.
- It would be possible to hide a box on the way to Winterfell, but it still makes me wonder a bit about some aspects. Littlefinger seems to mostly operate with lowerstanding people, so this would probably be the case here as well; and if so, if the box was seen wouldn't that raise some questions? It wasn't a bland non-descriptive box after all and contains a lens, so how would the person get it? Of course explanations would be at hand, it just bothers me somewhat. The size comes into play here as well, and we don't get that.
- Getting it to Luwin for someone how isn't familiar with Winterfell could pose a probelm. It does take a few days before he gets it, so that might be the case. It's not only the layout of the castle and considering how to get there unseen, but the habits of Winterfell's people. It's delivered while Luwin naps, so that could indicate a bit more knowledge than one would expect. Timing, layout of the inside of the turret, where he takes the nap etc. Possible to lure out of someone, maybe someone in their cups, but something to think about. The size of the box would again be relevant, as the box stands out. If it's biggish, it's harder to hide.
- This leads to the possibility that it was placed by someone from Winterfell instead, and here we have several options. First off, maybe it didn't come from someone in the king's party, but in another way. With a delivery of food or something before they arrived? Did Catelyn get her hands on it first, and placed it for Luwin to find? Does she have her own loyal servants we don't hear about that she used? They would know the practical things asked above, and no questions would be asked of what they wanted or was doing.
- If it was Catelyn herself, how did she get it, how did she know anything, and did she have a secret way of communication?
Might be nothing, might be something. Just putting it out there.

Catelyn's involvement
I have wondered a bit about this. As her actions seems so weird, odd and utterly stupid at times, it makes me wonder what the hell she was up to! We know her paranoia about Jon, so would she let that lie or would she try to get addittional information? I guess that depends on how scared she was of Ned, and if she really wanted to know. Some answers are so huge you actually don't want to know, but still can't stop worrying about the question. Is this the case here?
If she did take steps to find out, who did she ask? Lysa and/or Littlefinger is the obvious answer, but here we get back to the problem with delivery. I don't completely rule it out, even if I have little to nothing to base it on. There is obvious problems with practicality here, but I really find it interesting how Catelyn points out that she hasn't had any contact with Littlefinger since his duel with Brandon. Why the need to repeat it?
Did she get the letter somehow inbetween the initial letter from King's Landing and the delivery? If so, she might deduce the content and decide to secretly leave it for Luwin to distance herself from it, or to help setting the stage for a move to the captial. Playing Ned and Luwin both. Thanks to stdaga for this possibility!

Her burning of the letter is interesting as well! One thing is how she did it, but another is why no one else is allowed to read it. If it's in code, why the hurry? She doesn't let go of it from opening to burning, which makes me wonder. And did it contain more information than she said? The latter could be countered by her own thoughts when considering going to the Eyrie instead of Winterfell before Tyrion shows up, as she wants more information from Lysa. But it might not be about the Arryn situation, so the possibility is there, even if small.


Catelyn's currious thoughts on the separation of her family
Here I'll pick up from the first post, and her wondering if she'll ever see Ned, the girls and Bran again.
This is really curious! As Hands are not nailed to the floor at King's Landing and there are boats and horses which Ned has access to, he'd probably take some visits up north. Also the same is true in the other direction, so visits to King's Landing is also possible. So there is no good reason to think this way!
Taking premonitions and gut feelings out of the question, this path grows dark in shades ranging from middle grey to dark indeed. As she's just argued about the danger down there, it could be that she very well expected something to happen to Ned and the kids. Did she think it was greater than stated? Or did she know Ned well enough to predice he'd mess things up and pay darely? If so, why send the kids, or was that the reason for wanting to go herself? To keep her kids safe if shit hit the fan? This one I honestly think is possible, but this raises questions too.
If she expected Ned to die, did she want it? Did she want out of her marriage as well? It would leave the kids in her control until their older, and no Ned to mess up her plans. And more importantly, the secret of Jon is kept safe. It does sound like she think his mother was highborn at the very least, Ashara being the best option but not sure. And this leads down the road of her being willing to sacrifice Ned or actively wanting him dead. The latter has been theorized about, the Order of the Green Hand being one example of that.
Personally I have my doubts on the darkest shade, I feel it's more crack than pot to be honest. But I'm more open to the lighter shades. Some hints of something more, or something odd is found in her later chapters, but no clear clues as far as I know. I will keep looking in rereads, so maybe something turns up! Or maybe this is one ambigous scene we'll never get the true answer to!


The End!

Honestly, she can be a bit infuriating to read, but I try to see her better points as well. I mailed a bit back and forth with the Order when they were making their Catelyn-videos and in this chapter we saw many of the same things. And I still do as you can see. I'll get the rest up tomorrow, as it's a fairly easy write-up.
I'll probably dissect some more of her chapters as we go along in the reread, when there is some juicy bones to pick. 

Vitriol is a great word to describe the theme of those OotGH videos. I found it rather off-putting and only watched the first two in the series because I felt like there was no way the interpretation was unbiased or objective. I mean, we all have characters we don't like, but it's best to try to be a bit impartial.

I am very much looking forward to shymaid's breakdown of this chapter.

Sometimes it's easier to put all your thoughts down before starting to answer questions. I understand completely and don't want to influence your thought process, but I wanted to jot down some comments/questions before I lost them in the ether!


Well, we have one very explicit example of how Littlefinger manipulated Lysa, who in turn manipulated Cat, who in turn manipulated Ned, so it's easy to wonder if that wasn't the first time Littlefinger influenced Lysa. I can totally imagine that Littlefinger orchestrated Brandon's fall. It almost seems hard to deny. Which makes me question it a bit. Hoster is the other possibility that I see!

Hahaha! I am a derailing fool! I can't stop myself sometimes!

Ah, you wont! It always feels good to work out ideas, and if it triggers discussion from the rest of us, all the better.

Looking forward to the rest of your posts!

Cat is ambitous, rather like her father when you think about it. Ned it bitter because he hates the political BS.


She certainly has.... an unhealthy obsession with Sansa being Queen.



One of the things I can never forgive her for her treatment of Jon. I understand her reason but its doesn't make her any less of a c**t.


I can't help but if she loves the position the marriage gives her rather than Ned however.


Even he has a bit of the "wolf blood" isn't it odd the only other time we can remember Ned unleashing the fury when Cat was asking about Ashara Dayne (and Jon).


Considering Hoster's "Ambitions" and connection to Southern Ambitions I would say Cat is as much as his daughter as Cersei is Tywin's. Granted both are not as clever as they think they are.


I have had certain schools of thought that Cat was in on this. Her POV only slightly hints it but there is little proof.


I want to go look over all the times the Others are asked to take people and see if there is a pattern. Especially potent coming from a Stark I'd imagine.


It's one of those things I can watch and not agree with everything, but she does make a fuck ton of stupid decisions.





Southern Ambitions.

She is! I do suspect that Ned's bitterness is about more than just hating that BS though, and probably a good mix of several things. Maybe a little part of it is having to take Robert's shit? Just a thought that came to me while rereading the crypt-scene - what happened in the Vale, stays in the Vale. Shit and all. So it's probably not the first time Ned's been in the position of whiping up Robert's messier little things...


Yeah, and the part about her children ruling from the Wall to Dorne... It just made me think of Jon, and that he'd be under the thumb of her grandkids or something. No way for him to usurp anything from her kids! But that is in part from all the speculations of Jon being born in Starfall and all those things, so in a way Dorne makes me think of Jon.


Word! Never using his name before he's saying goodbye to his comatose brother? WTF!
And treating him like dirt while worrying about him taking her own kids inheritance doesn't make sense, as it just fuels resentment that could lead to that very thing.
While she's not stupid, she sure isn't that bright!


Definitely! Can you imagine them becoming besties? What a shitfest of idiotic ploys and plots that would give!


I see this too in the text, but it's kinda hard to lock down to something more certain.


Good! Let me know what you find!



Haha, it's a salt-feast that one! I enjoy it, though don't agree with everything. When I first saw it, it was a nice contrast to all the sickly sweet stuff I'd seen from other YTers.





Yup!


My pleasure!


All cards on the table: I had a flatmate like her some years ago, she was really nice and impossible to spend more than five minutes with! It did not end well... So I am biased for sure.


That is my problem with her, as it said so much about her as a person. Sometimes you just can't help the way you feel, but is sounds like she never even tried. It's not like he had any choice here, being just a child. And mental abuse is just as bad as physical. She might not have been as cruel as she was in Bran's room every day, but it still left a huge mark on him!


I'd call it "love" as I think it was more of a superficial thing. Being forced to live so close I think they formed a sort of loving relationship, as they both seem like the type to prefer/need that, but it's not deep.
Ned not telling her about Jon's origins is a big clue no matter who his mother (and father) was, as it implies lack of trust even after many years. If he is half Targaryen his life might have been in greater danger from her for the reason you say.


That is interesting! Well, she's interesting in any case, but there is something tasty in the Ned and Ashara story no matter how it played out. I'm not sure if they really had a thing, but something happened that connects them.


Haha, that is true! They do have much in common, so it was probably for the best that they didn't become besties...

I agree that her marriage to the Warden of the North is powerful, but maybe it's not as political as she had hoped. Ned came home to the north and sealed himself off from the rest of the kingdom. I do think she cared for him though, but I have never felt it was a passionate love, but a love than you gain from being with someone for so long.


Yes. But this time around, Cat doesn't seem frightened of Ned's anger. Maybe because she knew him more now, after 15 years of marriage, than she did when she was frightened of Ned early in their marriage. Jon certainly seems to be a key to Ned's strong emotions. And Cat tells us that Ned had always been "fiercely protective of Jon", so I am guessing that there might have been more temperamental outbursts from Ned when in came to Jon. Cat does tell us in this chapter that she implored Ned to send Jon away (how many times?), and the one thing that she could never forgive Ned was him not sending Jon away. It makes you wonder that while Catelyn was thinking that Ned was punishing her by making her stay in Winterfell, because she had orchestrated Ned into leaving his home because she wanted him to be punished for never sending Jon away? A circle of punishment.


They both think they are very clever and they both do a good job of fucking stuff up. Catelyn does at least recognize some of her mistakes, while Cersei never does, but it doesn't lesson the turmoil that they both have caused.


I have been wondering if it was Cat who actually planted the box with the lens and the message from Lysa in Luwin's chamber, making Luwin the message deliverer and casting suspicion away from herself. She could have easily snuck around the castle, went into his chambers, and left the puzzle box. Catelyn would certainly have the freedom of most anyplace in Winterfell. Luwin is an older man, maybe he naps every day at a certain time and she knows it. Of course, this means she had a whole different line of communication going on with someone. Pure speculation on my part, and as you say, there is little proof that she was even involved, but the whole scene is so damn suspicious. Maybe GRRM is leaving this to be a big reveal near the end of the story. If we ever get an end of the story. If all we get is the ending from the show, I might spontaneously combust in anger.



You should do this. I have wondered about it, when I come across those passages, but then I move on and it's lost in the ether.


With terrible, terrible outcomes!