1.17 Bran III - a tug of war?

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shymaid
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1.17 Bran III - a tug of war? Jan 19, 2018 13:16:31 GMT danl and stdaga like this

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Post by shymaid on Jan 19, 2018 13:16:31 GMT

I couldn't find much parentage in this chapter, but maybe that was because of the focus I got within the first few paragraphs. There is much and more in this chapter! So I take the liberty of starting a non-parental thread here.
(But first, a nod to Jon at the Wall. It's mention as a blue crystal makes me think of the Dawn imagery of the Wall or related to it, and makes me think of ALJ. *Parentage-alibi*)

The discussions of the chapters has led to many and more ideas floating around in my head, and a few of these collided when rereading Bran here. And I found an interesting new angle I, though I won't pretend the thought haven't occured to someone else before. So I'll take you through my line of thinking here, and see if you see what I see or if I'm way off base here!

It seemed like he'd been falling for years.
Fly, a voice whispered in the darkness, but Bran did not know how to fly, so all he could do was fall.

My initial thought process came with this, the second sentence in the chapter. As I recently reread Dany's last chapter in Dance, a whispering voice made me take a certain notice due to the different sources of dreams in the books. But I won't go into that dream here.

The ground was so far below him he could barely make it out through the grey mists that whirled around him, but he could feel how fast he was falling, and he knew what was waiting for him down there. Even in dreams, you could not fall for ever. He would wake up in the instant before he hit the ground, he knew. You always woke up in the instant before you hit the ground.
And if you don't? the voice asked.
The ground was closer now, still far far away, a thousand miles away, but closer than it had been. It was cold here in the darkness. There was no sun, no stars, only the ground below coming up to smash him, and the grey mists, and the whispering voice. He wanted to cry.

The first thing the voice does, is making Bran wonder if he will wake up or not before hitting the ground. Why is that? Could it be a more important question than we think?
One question to ask is if the dreamscape is created by Bran, or by the crow, or is it a special place created by no single entity? We see other characters getting sent dreams, so the thought of this dreamscape coming from the crow isn't so far fetched. If so, and Brynden being the 3EC, is the dreamscape connected to his surroundings?
His cave is dark and he thrives in it, but it isn't cold. The crypt, on the other hand, is both dark and cold.
Bloodraven is connected with mist, as the rumor had it he could turn into it. And his army appeard from mist ouside the walls of the castle in The Mystery Knight. So maybe.
What about his voice, is that whispering? Yes, Bran say he whisperes to him in the cave.
So the possibility is still there.

Not cry. Fly.
«I can't fly,» Bran said. «I can't, I can't...»
How do you know? Have you ever tried?
The voice was high and thin. Bran looked around to see where it was coming from. A crow was spiraling down with him, just out of reach, following him as he fell. «Help me,» he said.

But when the source of the voice is revealed, we get something else. It is a crow, and the voice is high and thin. Is Brynden's? No. It's described as dry, soft, hoarse whispers, and once «a ghastly sound that might have been a chuckle». This might be an element of the dream, but I note the difference.

I'm trying, the crow replied. Say, got any corn?
Bran reached into his pocket as the darkness spun dizzily aound him. When he pulled his hand out, golden kernels slid from between his fingers into the air. They fell with him.
The crow landed on his hand and began to eat.

And who does this remind you of? Mormont's and later Jon's raven perhaps? Is this a clue of the same entity skinchanging the raven, or is the raven skinchanged by two entities? A question worth asking!
And golden kernels? This is the only use of that description in the entire series. Interesting! Keep the golden part in mind for later!

«Are you really a crow?» Bran asked.
Are you really falling? The crow asked back.
«It's just a dream,» Bran said.
Is it?
«I'll wake up when I hit the ground,»Bran told the bird.
You'll die when you hit the ground, the crow said. It went back to eating corn.

Interestingly, instead of answering Bran's question, the crow avoids it by distracting Bran to the fact that he's falling.
We never have anyone confirm that Brynden and the 3EC is the same person/entity; Leaf doesn't confirm or deny but simply answers "the last greenseer", and Brynden himself seems puzzled over the question and thinks of being a black brother.

Bran looked down. He could see mountains now, covered in snow, and the silver thread of rivers in dark woods. He closed his eyes and began to cry.

Hmmm. A Rivers of Blackwood blood? If so, why is this image down there instead of up in the air with Bran?

That won't do any good, the crow said. I told you, the answer is flying, not crying. How hard can it be? I'm doing it. The crow took to the air and flapped around Bran's head.
«You have wings,» Bran pointed out.
Maybe you do too.
Bran felt along his shoulders, groping for feathers.
There are different kinds of wings, the crow said.
Bran was staring at his arms, his legs. He was so skinny, just skin stretched taut over bones. Had he always been so thin? He tried to remember. A face swam up at him out of the grey mists, shining with light, golden. «The things I do for love,» it said.
Bran screamed.
The crow took to the air, cawing. Not that, it shrieked at him. Forget that, you do not need it now, put it aside, put it away. It landed on Bran's shoulder, and pecked at him, and the shining golden face was gone.

Non-feathered wings? Like, the kind where leather is stretched out between bones, perhaps? Dragonwings?

As for the face, the obvoius link is to Jamie and it is relevant. But we do have another golden face that often shines in the light of the sun, but it is in skull form! Yes, I'm talking about Bittersteel!
:drama

Is that why the crow reacts so violently? Could this be a way for the crow to make Bran avoid questions about Brynden's past when they meet? The thing is, I don't think the 3EC is trying to avoid them meeting up in the future. (Provided they are not the same being, of course.) The reason for this I will get back to later in this post.
If this is the case, does "the things I do for love" mean anything? Well, it makes me think of Brynden telling Bran of going back to his past and "a brother I loved", a haunting sentence indeed.

I'll skip the visions from the realm here, with the exception of this:

At the heart of the godswood, the great white weirwood brooded over it's reflection in the black pole, it's leaves rustling in a chill wind. When it felt Bran watching, it lifted it's eyes from the still waters and stared back at him knowingly.

Brooding over it's reflection is taking a deep look at oneself and ones life, a thing that Brynden definitely has done:

"He heard a whisper on the wind, a rustling amongst the leaves. You cannot speak to him, try as you might. I know. I have my own ghosts, Bran. A brother that I loved, a brother that I hated, a woman I desired. Through the trees, I see them still, but no word of mine has ever reached them. The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it."

And we know he "resides" in weirwoods, so for me it's been obvious from the first read that this is where Bloodraven is to be found in Bran's dream here. (But then I was a spoiled reader, and knew he was coming.)
And keep in mind his knowing eyes.

Bran looked at the crow on his shoulder, and the crow looked back. It had three eyes, and the third eye was full of a terrible knowledge. Bran looked down. There was nothing below him now but snow and cold and death, a frozen wasteland where jagged blue-white spires of ice waited to embrace him. They flew up at him like spears. He saw the bones of a thousand other dreamsers impaled upon their points. He was desperately afraid.

Where the weirwood has knowing eyes, the crows is filled with a terrible knowledge. And it's just the one eye. That makes me think of Theon's memory of Euron and his "black eye shining with malice". They're not identical, but I find it similar. And it seems pretty obvious that Euron was visited as well as a child. We never get anything like that in connection to Bloodraven, as far as I know, so that is something I find odd if they are the same.

And what about the impaled dreamers? We get impaled dreamers later, though not by ice spires. I can't help but think this is the reason the crow is insisting he will die if he hits the ground. Bran, while afraid, is sure he'd wake up and not die. What if he was right? Let's say he did't fly but hit the spires, would he really die? If not, is it possible he'd wake up as he thinks with new knowledge? I'm starting to think that is possible! That this could have been an initial contact between Bran and the cave, that would lead him there. Instead the crow confuses him and makes his move.

«Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?» he heard his own voice saying, small and far away.
And his father's voice replied to him. «That is the only time a man can be brave.»
Now, Bran, the crow urged. Choose. Fly or die.
Death reached for him, screaming.
Bran spread his arms and flew.
Wings unseen drank the wind and filled and pulled him upward. The terrible needles of ice receded below him. The sky opened up above. Bran soared. It was better than climbing. It was better than anything. The world grew small beneath him.
«I'm flying!» he cried out in delight.

Bran gets the taste of something better than he's ever tasted before. Does this influence him later? This thing would create a bias in his mind, so it's possible.
But now comes the insidious part...

I've noticed, said the three eyed crow. It took to the air, flapping its wings in his face, slowing him, blinding him. He faltered in the air as it's pinions beat against his cheeks. Its beak stabbed at him fiercely, and Bran felt a sudden blinding pain in the middle of his forehead, between his eyes.
«What are you doing?» he shrieked.

Why is it that as soon as Bran actually flies, the crow interrupts him? And so brutally?
What I'm thinking is that Bran's delight about flying firstly makes him in a certain frame of mind, the crows wanted frame of mind, which might make him vounerable for intrution. He's not paying attention, and he's not guarded. If he thinks he has to keep his arms stretched out, would he dare to use them to fight off the crow?
Secondly, the crow wants access to his third eye. Later this is explained as opening it, but as we see with Arya in her blindness, not being able to see will open it on it's own. And in our world, you don't break into someones third eye! If it's to be opened, the person has to do it themselves. So why is the crow doing this?
Well, in a later chapter we get

That night Bran prayed to his father's gods for dreamless sleep. If the gods heard, they mocked his hopes, for the nightmare they sent was worse than any wolf dream.
"Fly or die!" cried the three-eyed crow as it pecked at him. He wept and pleaded but the crow had no pity. It put out his left eye and then his right, and when he was blind in the dark it pecked at his brow, driving its terrible sharp beak deep into his skull. He screamed until he was certain his lungs must burst. The pain was an axe splitting his head apart, but when the crow wrenched out its beak all slimy with bits of bone and brain, Bran could see again. What he saw made him gasp in fear. He was clinging to a tower miles high, and his fingers were slipping, nails scrabbling at the stone, his legs dragging him down, stupid useless dead legs. "Help me!" he cried. A golden man appeared in the sky above him and pulled him up. "The things I do for love," he murmured softly as he tossed him out kicking into empty air.
Bran II, Clash

I've always found this part of the story very, very disturbing!
We have the thought of gaining a person's knowledge or power by eating him/her, and that very much includes the brain where the knowledge is found. So, I think the crow wants both the knowledge Bran has, councious as unconsious, as well as future access to his mind. That could make Bran his unwitting spy later on.
When Bran's eye is "opened" the first thing he sees is this golden man. Again, the first thought is Jamie, which it probably is. But is it possible Bran actually sees the one who just broke into his mind? A man who's skull is now dipped in gold and surveying all the places his company goes?

The crow opened its beak and cawed at him, a shrill scream of fear, and the grey mists shuddered and swirled around him and ripped away like a veil, and he saw that the crow really was a woman, a serving woman with long black hair, and he knew her from somewhere, from Winterfell, yes, that was it, he remembered her now, and then he realized that he was in Winterfell, in a bed high in some chilly tower room, and the black-haired woman dropped a basin of water to shatter on the floor and ran down the steps, shouting «He's awake, he's awake, he's awake.»

The last interesting part of this chapter is this.
Is it the crow that is finished with Bran? Is it Bran himself that wakes up at this terrible experience, like he thought he would just before hitting the ground? If either of these, who does the crow scream? Is it possible another force is driving it off before it can peck trough Bran's forhead, and waking Bran at the same time? Personally I like this idea! If we really see two persons in this chapter, Bloodraven and Bittersteel, they could end both tugging at Bran's mind here at the end. The crow wanting in, and Bloodraven stopping him after Bran starts to fly. Granted, Brynden talks about flying later, but is it really the same as Bran does here?

Before I've had a bit of trouble of putting my finger of who else the 3EC could be, as The Great Other hasn't felt quite right to me. I'm not ruling it out; but as we have Brynden as the possible other side of the force and there is a struggle between his side and something else, and his archnemesis is said to be Bittersteel, why not having Bittersteel show up here? As I've said before in other threads, I don't know who Bittersteel would have the knowhow to still be in the current story as we never hear of him having such interests, but I like the idea. Perhaps that was part of both brothers interest in Shiera? Her knowledge in the dark arts?

:idea

Last Edit: Jan 19, 2018 13:22:05 GMT by shymaid: Clarifications.

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stdaga
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1.17 Bran III - a tug of war? Jan 26, 2018 7:01:51 GMT danl and shymaid like this

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Post by stdaga on Jan 26, 2018 7:01:51 GMT

You have some great thoughts here. Some I have wondered about before and some that have never occurred to me. My mind was rather all over the place after reading through this the first time, so I needed to think a bit, and look over it again.

I will agree with your that there is more than one entity in Bran's dream, but I am honestly not sure how many things/people there are. Each time I read this chapter, my mind almost bogs down with all the imagery. It seems so complicated.

I am not sure the best way to address things, so I am going to just respond in the order of your post, even if that is not the order my mind moves in. Here goes...

Jan 25, 2018 8:12:22 GMT shymaid said:

It seemed like he'd been falling for years.
Fly, a voice whispered in the darkness, but Bran did not know how to fly, so all he could do was fall.

This idea of needing to fly or die seems to be a major part of Bran's dream, but I wonder if it is part of Dany's dreams as well. And I am talking about the first dreams that we are aware that Dany is having. Her major breakthrough dream seems to come in Game.

Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. "Faster," they cried, "faster, faster." She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. "Faster!" the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward. A great knife of pain ripped down her back, and she felt her skin tear open and smelled the stench of burning blood and saw the shadow of wings. And Daenerys Targaryen flew. AGOT-Daenerys IX

In this dream, Dany seems to be racing from an icy breath, and she fears that if it catches her, she will die. She she runs, faster and faster, until eventually she feels pain, senses shadow wings and then Daenery Targaryen flew! It's not stated at like in Bran's dream, but Dany made a choice also to fly or die in her dream. She chose to fly, and not let the icy breath catch her, which she equates with death.

I have wondered for a while if the dreams that Dany and Bran are getting are sent from the same source, and what is the connection between this wolf boy and dragon girl?

Now Bran's dream is different, as it seems to have elements of his life and accident in it, such as his fall from the tower, where as Dany's dream has elements of her life, including Jorah, Drogo, Rhaego, and Viserys, whom often caused her terror. Just like the terror Bran probably felt when he was falling after Jaime pushed him. Their own individual life experiences and fears are part of their dreams, but in the end, each of them make the same choice. To fly!

Jan 25, 2018 8:12:22 GMT shymaid said:

The ground was closer now, still far far away, a thousand miles away, but closer than it had been. It was cold here in the darkness. There was no sun, no stars, only the ground below coming up to smash him, and the grey mists, and the whispering voice. He wanted to cry.

So the cold and darkness does seem to make a person think of the crypts. Ned tells us in his first POV about the stairway that leads down to the crypts, "He could feel the chill coming up the stairs, a cold breath from deep within the earth" and also "He led the way between the pillars and Robert followed wordlessly, shivering in the subterranean chill. It was always cold down here." And from Bran's POV in Clash "He closed his third eye and opened the other two, the old two, the blind two. In the dark place all men were blind." So, while Bran dreams he is falling, the place that his dreams are centered around seem to be the crypts. Dany also seems to dream of the hall of kings that sound like the crypts of Winterfell, or at least a place that sounds similar to the crypts line with kings.

I agree that Bloodraven is connected to this dream by the "grey mist", and I do think that he is associated with a raven as well. Or possibly two, like Odin.

The crow with three eyes is a different entity, but who? My guess is that is could be either Euron Greyjoy, or the Warlock's of Qarth. I have wondered for some time if Euron might have been an earlier attempt by Bloodraven to open a third eye in an earlier generation. This is mostly guessing on my part, but I wonder if the Greyjoy's might have a bit of a skinchanger gene, like the Stark's do. Theon seems to have a very strong connection to his horse Smiler, and when Smiler is killed, Theon blacks out. There is pain and chaos, and then nothing, and it reminds me a bit of when Orell's eagle skinchanged by Varamyr is burned above the wall, and how Varamyr screams and thrashes and looses time, as well as a couple of his animals. So, I am using this to stretch to Euron, who may have the same gene that Theon has. We also get the idea that Euron might be able to try to force himself inside of Aeron. (I know many people think this is a hint an Euron molesting Aeron, but I don't thinks so. I think that Eruon was trying to learn to mind control and he was using his little brother's to do it). Euron is known for wearing at eye patch, and has one beautiful blue eye, and one eye filled with malice, but what is really behind that eye patch now? Could Euron, who has traveled the world and says he has seen things no living man has seen, have given an eye for knowledge, mimicking Bloodraven in a way, as well as the Odin myth. Odin gave an eye and is often accompanied by his two ravens. Euron Crow's Eye (the third eye) has a sigil with a red eye, a bloody eye, how an eye would look perhaps if it was plucked out and carried between two crows.

Now, I think that the whispery voice could be his, but with the help of the magic of the Warlock's of Qarth. Euron has an association to them, and in Qarth there is a man who is named Urrithon Nightwalker, who Xaro Xon Daxos tells Dany "It is said that the glass candles are burning in the house of Urrathon Night-Walker..." . Urras Greyiron was the first High King of the Iron Islands chosen by Kingsmoot. All of these names are similar, and I think that it could be Euron in Qarth. He might have trained as a Warlock, as his lips are stained blue with Shade of the Evening. This is not my original idea, I have read a couple theories on Euron and Urrathon being the same person, and the tie to the Warlocks, but I have never associated the whispering in Bran's dream to Euron until recently. (there is a theory that connects the hooded man of Winterfell to Euron as well, using a glass but that doesn't matter to this).

Now, another idea is that the whispering is the warlocks of Qarth, and the are not allied with Euron, but working with their own agenda.

Jan 25, 2018 1:12:22 GMT -7 shymaid said:

But when the source of the voice is revealed, we get something else. It is a crow, and the voice is high and thin. Is Brynden's? No. It's described as dry, soft, hoarse whispers, and once «a ghastly sound that might have been a chuckle». This might be an element of the dream, but I note the difference.

The whispers and the high thin voice remind me of the warlocks of qarth. Several times the warlocks are noted for whispering.

"No," Pyat screeched. "No, to me, come to me, to meeeeeee." His face crumbled inward, changing to something pale and wormlike." a screeching sound could be high and thin, and

Xaro's tears ran down his cheeks on either side of his jewel-encrusted nose. "Did I not warn you not to enter the Palace of Dust? This is the very thing I feared. The whispers of the warlocks have made you as mad as Mallarawan's wife. A third of all the ships in the world? Pah. Pah, I say. Pah." ACOK-Daenerys V

and

The warlocks whispered of three treasons... ACOK-Daenerys V

Now, to connect Bran, his dreams and the warlocks, there is this discussion between Bran and Luwin:

"All those who study the higher mysteries try their own hand at spells, soon or late. I yielded to the temptation too, I must confess it. Well, I was a boy, and what boy does not secretly wish to find hidden powers in himself? I got no more for my efforts than a thousand boys before me, and a thousand since. Sad to say, magic does not work."

"Sometimes it does," Bran protested. "I had that dream, and Rickon did too. And there are mages and warlocks in the east ..."

"There are men who call themselves mages and warlocks," Maester Luwin said. ACOK-Bran IV

Euron is called the Crow's Eye, has blue lips with the possibility of power of the Warlocks and Shade of the Evening, his sigil is two crows carrying a red eye. He is creepy as fook! So, I am not claiming that Euron is a Warlock, but he has spent time in the east, claims to have been both to Asshai and Valyria, places of magic. Bran connects his dreams to warlocks, the east, and to magic. I think Euron is a candidate for the three eyed crow.

I am just trying to come up with a different option besides Bloodraven for all of this, or even Bittersteel as you are speculating.

Jan 25, 2018 8:12:22 GMT shymaid said:

I have no proof, but I think the raven and the crow are different entities or powers. Different people.

Jan 25, 2018 8:12:22 GMT shymaid said:

You'll die when you hit the ground, the crow said.

So, Bran is told that he will die when he hits the ground and so he flies. Dany fears the cold breath behind her will kill her, so she becomes a dragon. And you mentioned the idea of the wings that Bran dreams of.

Jan 25, 2018 8:12:22 GMT shymaid said:

Its beak stabbed at him fiercely, and Bran felt a sudden blinding pain in the middle of his forehead, between his eyes.

This pain actually reminds me of the pain that Dany feels in her back before she flew. Only Bran is flying, then feels the pain. But both are break through's, and I think this action changes who Bran and Dany are.

Jan 25, 2018 8:12:22 GMT shymaid said:

Bran felt along his shoulders, groping for feathers.
There are different kinds of wings, the crow said.
Bran was staring at his arms, his legs. He was so skinny, just skin stretched taut over bones.

Jan 25, 2018 8:12:22 GMT shymaid said:

Non-feathered wings? Like, the kind where leather is stretched out between bones, perhaps? Dragonwings?

I agree about the dragon wings. Not so unusual for Dany to dream of dragon wings, but why Bran? A Stark warg with a wolf pup for a companion? Is it the same dragon, or a different kind of dragon. We have fire dragons in the story, mentions of ice dragons, we have sea dragon point. Bran is a Stark and associated with the north and ice, so is it an ice dragon he dreams of? But it is Jon who the idea of an ice dragon comes to over and over again.

Jan 25, 2018 8:12:22 GMT shymaid said:

As for the face, the obvoius link is to Jamie and it is relevant. But we do have another golden face that often shines in the light of the sun, but it is in skull form! Yes, I'm talking about Bittersteel!

I love this idea. :cheers

Of course, I think there is a pull between Bloodraven and Bittersteel after all these years, between Blackwood and Bracken for thousands of years, but I also wonder if those are not idea's of a far older and greater feud in this world. I don't think it's ice and fire exactly, but it could be. It could be dark and light, it could be R'hllor and the Great Other. Not sure at all, but some pull between polar forces. Is that war trying to save the world or is it destroying it blindly, just as the War of the Five Kings has destroyed what is the Riverlands, and maybe the idea of the Seven Kingdoms. Something perhaps needs to stop the war. A pact? A new pact!

So, this idea of the golden face that Bran seems really fits the idea of a golden skull better than just Jaime's face, unless Jaime is wearing a golden helm, but then his face would not be noted. Another notable golden head/golden face in this story is Viserys, after he get's his golden crown.

Viserys stood before her, screaming. "The dragon does not beg, slut. You do not command the dragon. I am the dragon, and I will be crowned." The molten gold trickled down his face like wax, burning deep channels in his flesh. "I am the dragon and I will be crowned!" he shrieked. AGOT-Daenerys IX

Gold covering his face like a mask, perhaps. But maybe this image isn't just Viserys, but another golden masked individual. Like the skulls of the Golden Company?

"I am the dragon and I will be crowned!" perhaps showing us Bittersteel's golden face screaming for a Blackfyre to be crowned king?

Whether Viserys' image is included or not, I love the idea of Bittersteel creeping into Bran's dreams, along with Bloodraven. But I wonder if it's like there is one dream stream in this world, and they all are plugged into it, in different ways and with different goals?

Jan 25, 2018 8:12:22 GMT shymaid said:

I am not sold on this image being just of Bloodraven alone, in spite of the coloring that is similar to Bloodraven or the fact that he lives in the root system. I think the weirwood are a collective of many souls and idea's and thoughts. This person who is staring at him knowingly might be the soul of the very first person who was a blood sacrifice to the tree, if a seed is planted with blood. Bran will later have a vision of a sacrifice before the tree. It could be Brandon the Builder, it could be a collective of Stark's from the past who have prayed and sacrificed to the tree. It could be a powerful CotF who is watching Bran knowingly. It could be Bran himself.

The grey mist I agree is Bloodraven, but the weirwood image, I am not sure of.

Jan 25, 2018 8:12:22 GMT shymaid said:

And what about the impaled dreamers? We get impaled dreamers later, though not by ice spires. I can't help but think this is the reason the crow is insisting he will die if he hits the ground. Bran, while afraid, is sure he'd wake up and not die. What if he was right? Let's say he did't fly but hit the spires, would he really die? If not, is it possible he'd wake up as he thinks with new knowledge? I'm starting to think that is possible! That this could have been an initial contact between Bran and the cave, that would lead him there. Instead the crow confuses him and makes his move.

I have also wondered if what Bran see's that look like people plugged into spires isn't actually all the bodies and skeleten's in Bloodraven's cave. But the spires also make me think of stalks of ghost grass, and I think that imagery must be connected some how to the cave, but also to Essos. And the idea of ghost grass seems to be a Dothraki story or prophecy. Do things look different east vs west, or north vs south, or does it all have the same axis, just different explanations?

Jan 25, 2018 8:12:22 GMT shymaid said:

This makes sense, when a person is distracted, happy or joyful, they are accessible. Not guarded, as you say, and therefore vulnerable.

Jan 25, 2018 8:12:22 GMT shymaid said:

Secondly, the crow wants access to his third eye. Later this is explained as opening it, but as we see with Arya in her blindness, not being able to see will open it on it's own. And in our world, you don't break into someones third eye! If it's to be opened, the person has to do it themselves. So why is the crow doing this?

I am not sure that the crow wants access to Bran's third eye. I really think he is trying to help him open it, to help him see. Whatever it is that he needs to see. Then Bran helps Jon open his, and Arya's is opened by the Faceless Men, which is another organization that Euron is rumored to have dealings with.

Jan 25, 2018 8:12:22 GMT shymaid said:

A golden man appeared in the sky above him and pulled him up. "The things I do for love," he murmured softly as he tossed him out kicking into empty air.
Bran II, Clash

I think this dream is most definitely Jaime, but I wonder if Jaime was "told" to push Bran, and to say the words "The things I do for love". Some entity needed Bran to fall and Jaime was the tool. Jaime, with golden imagery all around him, gold hair, gold sword, gold armor, gold hand, maybe told by the man with a golden face to push Bran. The first dream we get of Jaime's is the weirwood stump dream but he has others, and I think he is tapped into this dream stream, and maybe has been for a long time. Perhaps some voice whispered to him that he needed to kill Aerys. Jaime is vilified for that deed, changing his whole life. It seems like karma when Jaime loses his sword hand, the same hand he killed Aerys with but also probably used to push Bran from the tower. But maybe that golden hand will have some great purpose we haven't yet seen.

Also the tower that Bran falls from is interesting. The tower that is the First Keep at Winterfell, warded by gargoyles, built by Brandon the Builder, the oldest above ground structure at Winterfell, the same tower that eventually collapses when Winterfell is burned, with leads to Summer seeing a winged snake, breathing shadow fire. This could be a type of dragon woken from stone, perhaps. Dany also has dragon's woken from stone, but are they they same kind of dragons, what is the purpose. I absolutely believe that Summer saw a dragon over Winterfell that day. I just am not sure if it is a tool for the Stark's to use, or a tool to be used against the Starks. Bran dreams of what sounds like dragon dreams, Jon thinks often of an ice dragon, Arya experiences the dragons skulls in the red keep, Sansa dreams of flying home. Rickon has dreams, although the only one we are aware of his about Ned. I am certain Robb did too. 4 of 6 Stark kids raised at Winterfell have idea's or dreams that tease about flying and what seems like dragon's. Why?

Back to the idea of "the things I do for love". It seems very tied to Jaime, Cersei, Bran and that incident in the tower, but it would be great if it was something far more. Jaime alludes to the fact that he would have done Arya harm if he had found her first, he claims it was luck that kept her out of his hands, but it wasn't luck probably. It was some different force that had Arya on a different path. And maybe because if Jaime had crossed one more line, maybe there could be no redemption for him. Perhaps that luck that kept Arya away from Jaime was more lucky for Jaime than in was for Arya?

So this phrase, "the things I do for love" is important, and while it ripples a bit in Bran's dreams and in Jaime and Cersei's memories, I think it will have a greater impact down the road. It always felt like it was unfinished, or just skimming the surface, and now, with your connection of Jaime's actions but to a different golden face (Bittersteel, perhaps) then I believe we will see it again, and in an important way.

Bittersteel and Bloodraven were almost set as enemies from the start, bastard half brothers from feuding households. It almost feels like the Stark's and Lannister's warring and tearing up the countryside, children at war because their parents are at war. No side is really more right and the other wrong. Each has it's own motivations, just like Bloodraven and Bittersteel, or the Blackwoods and the Bracken's. Where did it start? Where will it end?

I wonder how many influences are happening in Bran's dream. Bloodraven seems hinted at with the grey mist. Bittersteel seems a possibility for the golden face, as you have pointed out. I think the Three-Eyed Crow is Euron, and so far nothing can shake that thought for me (I am not sure if he is using glass candles or shade of the evening to do this). I think the warlocks could be involved, either with Euron or separately. I am not sold on the weirwood being Bloodraven, although he might be part of the collective that is the weirnet, I think that includes the Children of the Forest, as well as greenseer's of human or children from thousands of years. There might be more influences here, as well, but it's so hard to separate the images.

I had hoped to be more organized in my response, pulling a few more quotes from the text, but I am feeling fairly drained. This dream is exhausting, and every time I have read it, I am left a bit confused and unsettled. There is so much going on, and really, you only touched on parts of the dream. I hope someday we get an explanation for some of the stuff, but I bet GRRM would rather let us flounder and try to figure it out for ourselves.

Again, love the connection to Bittersteel with the golden face! :thumbsup

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1.17 Bran III - a tug of war? Jan 30, 2018 3:20:29 GMT Wraith, stdaga, and 1 more like this

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Post by danl on Jan 30, 2018 3:20:29 GMT

I'm not at all sure what to make of it, but I'm really enjoying all of the connections you are pulling out of this. shymaid, stdaga,

Jan 27, 2018 17:02:44 GMT stdaga said:

Through the maternal lineage, there is a bat (Whent) connection. Maybe we should think bat wings rather than dragon wings.

Jan 27, 2018 17:02:44 GMT stdaga said:

Whether Viserys' image is included or not, I love the idea of Bittersteel creeping into Bran's dreams, along with Bloodraven. But I wonder if it's like there is one dream stream in this world, and they all are plugged into it, in different ways and with different goals?

It is very interesting to pull Bittersteel into this. Maybe what is haunting Bran's dreams also haunted Bittersteel to inspire the notion of dipping a skull in gold. Bittersteel may just be another subject of the dream invasion by the golden man.
As you note, Bran's and Dany's dreams contain some of the same themes but are expressed in images from their lives. Maybe the best analysis is to explore to commonalities. Maybe both are in contact with the same golden man but interpret it in terms of traumatic images they know, Jamie for Bran and Viserys for Dany. Some of the images are obviously Jamie or Viserys, but that may not be the truth behind the image.

Jan 27, 2018 17:02:44 GMT stdaga said:

I agree but with one caveat. Something is helping Bran open his third eye, but it may not be because Bran needs to see something. It is because the 3EC (or some person or entity) wants him to see something. Opening the third eye may not be helpful to Bran or to anyone he cares about.

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1.17 Bran III - a tug of war? Jan 30, 2018 8:01:12 GMT danl and shymaid like this

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Post by stdaga on Jan 30, 2018 8:01:12 GMT

Jan 30, 2018 3:20:29 GMT danl said:

Through the maternal lineage, there is a bat (Whent) connection. Maybe we should think bat wings rather than dragon wings.

This makes sense. And Bran does see what appears to be the skeletons of giant bat's in Bloodraven's caves, so there is the Whent/Lothston family history, as well as the connection in Bran's own story, much later in the story, but still a connection.

Jan 30, 2018 3:20:29 GMT danl said:

This is interesting. What came first, the chicken or the egg! Since we have no idea why Bittersteel decided to have his skull dipped in gold, perhaps he was inspired by something else. He certainly in turn inspired the commanders of the Golden Company to follow this tradition. Perhaps Drogo's crowning of Viserys was inspired by a dream, too? We really don't know what was going on in Drogo's head, including why he was inspired to marry Dany to start with. Perhaps Viserys's demands for a crown were inspired by a similar vision of a golden image that appeared to be a man crowned in gold! I see no reason to assume that Viserys never had dreams that caused his thoughts and agitation.

Jan 30, 2018 3:20:29 GMT danl said:

As you note, Bran's and Dany's dreams contain some of the same themes but are expressed in images from their lives. Maybe the best analysis is to explore to commonalities. Maybe both are in contact with the same golden man but interpret it in terms of traumatic images they know, Jamie for Bran and Viserys for Dany. Some of the images are obviously Jamie or Viserys, but that may not be the truth behind the image.

If this is all connected by something that came before, what is the inspiration for the golden man, golden image shining in these visions and dreams? How far back in the past could this inspiration go. And, as you say, it is a traumatic experience for both Bran and Dany, triggered by a golden image, that propel's both of their story lines forward! Dany and Bran having these dreams/visions, not Jon. As far as I know, Jon has not had any dream that involves a golden image? Has anyone else had a dream of a golden image?

Jan 30, 2018 3:20:29 GMT danl said:

That is some great insight! Does the third eye help the person who it is opened for/on/in, such as Bran, Jon, possibly Arya, as in it helps them see things better, or does it allow another entity access to their minds/thoughts/experiences. Does it make the person who's eye is opened feel more powerful, while it actually is working against them, or at least using them? Does it give a level of mind control, or just access and vision?

Last Edit: Jan 30, 2018 16:22:22 GMT by stdaga: spelling ... yikes!

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1.17 Bran III - a tug of war? Jan 30, 2018 16:33:22 GMT danl and stdaga like this

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Post by shymaid on Jan 30, 2018 16:33:22 GMT

Jan 30, 2018 9:01:07 GMT stdaga said:

I'm still thinking about this myself to be honest! As you say, this dream has so many elements that it's hard to tackle and my notes contains way more than this. Which is just the start... So this really started as my attempt of disproving my notion of 3EC =/= Bloodraven, but I failed at that.
My mind is a bit all over the place when it comes to what this dream is all about, and I'm a bit busy these days so it's difficult to find the time to dive in deeper. I appologise in advance for my disjointed answers here...

I'll start with some points on Dany.

Jan 30, 2018 9:01:07 GMT stdaga said:

Well, the difference between these two - and a huge one imo - is that Bran doesn't initially fear the impact, it's the crow that plants the seed of doubt in his mind. Dany on the other hand thinks the cold will kill her all on her own, no outside entity instills this in her mind that we know of.
Another thing that we see in her arc as a whole, is her refusal to look back as then she'll be lost. To me this seems to start with this dream and is only faced head on in her last chapter in Dance. (I'm working on Daenerys the Dreamer as well, but that might take a bit of time with all my other reread projects...)
The similarity is there, I agree, but right now I think they are diametrically opposed so to speak. While both are filled with joy and ecstacy about flying (who wouldn't be?) and both seems to have a need to flee from death, the differences are to me a bit too stark for a strong connection. No pun intended.

Jan 30, 2018 9:01:07 GMT stdaga said:

Dany also seems to dream of the hall of kings that sound like the crypts of Winterfell, or at least a place that sounds similar to the crypts line with kings.

This I'm not so sure of at the moment. The imagery is similar, but in Dany's dream it's connected with her own ancestors, who seems to go back to the Great Empire of the Dawn to boot in their coloring. And the cold is coming towards her, while the crypts are filled with cold. For now I'm not sure what to make of this bit of her dream.

Jan 30, 2018 9:01:07 GMT stdaga said:

Jan 30, 2018 3:20:29 GMT danl said:

Through the maternal lineage, there is a bat (Whent) connection. Maybe we should think bat wings rather than dragon wings.

My thought process didn't come well across here... :tictoc

I was looking for clues to who might be behind the 3EC, and Bran's thoughts about his arms and skin jumped out at me and I thought about dragon wings. Bat wings is the same kind of wings, so that is a good alternative for Bran. To me that also connects to Bittersteel with his sigil - a horse with dragon wings - to the rumor of Sansa's escape from King's Landing as a wolf with bat wings. With same mother and father, Bran too fits in with a wolf with bat wings. A non-winged animal with leather wings in both cases. But I'm not convinced Bran is the winged wolf that is chained that Jojen talks about.
Not sure what more to do with it, though.

Jan 30, 2018 9:01:07 GMT stdaga said:

I agree that Bloodraven is connected to this dream by the "grey mist", and I do think that he is associated with a raven as well. Or possibly two, like Odin.

Actually, I'm not convinced Bloodraven is the mist. It was the one thing I could connect to him, but imo it's a rather weak connection. The rumor amongst the common folk is that he could turn to mist, but it only comes up in that one sentence. We have no idea if it's true or not, so I'm quite sceptical to the truth of it. Still, I couldn't ignore the find so I put it in there, and I keep the possibility open.
Being the crazy fool that I am, mist is on my list of things to look into and until then the jury is out.

Jan 30, 2018 9:01:07 GMT stdaga said:

The crow with three eyes is a different entity, but who? My guess is that is could be either Euron Greyjoy, or the Warlock's of Qarth. I have wondered for some time if Euron might have been an earlier attempt by Bloodraven to open a third eye in an earlier generation. This is mostly guessing on my part, but I wonder if the Greyjoy's might have a bit of a skinchanger gene, like the Stark's do. Theon seems to have a very strong connection to his horse Smiler, and when Smiler is killed, Theon blacks out. There is pain and chaos, and then nothing, and it reminds me a bit of when Orell's eagle skinchanged by Varamyr is burned above the wall, and how Varamyr screams and thrashes and looses time, as well as a couple of his animals. So, I am using this to stretch to Euron, who may have the same gene that Theon has. We also get the idea that Euron might be able to try to force himself inside of Aeron.

I don't have a problem with the Greyjoys having a skinchanger gene, or that Euron was trying to open his brother's third eye (and isn't it implied that he also tried with Theon as a child?). Much of his arc is tied with this. And there seems to be a connection to the 3EC. But to convince me of him actually is the 3EC, you'll have to bombard me with quotes I'm afraid.
And honestly I find it a bit hard to discuss his methods of bending peoples minds to him without also taking "The Forsaken" from tWoW into the discussion... I hope I'm not coming across as narrow minded or pompous or something here, as that is not my intention! That chapter is a goldmind in so many ways, and is rivaling this chapter in the information it contains on so many levels, which creates this problem of mine when it comes to Euron. And I respect that you don't want to read the sample chapters.

Jan 30, 2018 9:01:07 GMT stdaga said:

I think the Three-Eyed Crow is Euron, and so far nothing can shake that thought for me (I am not sure if he is using glass candles or shade of the evening to do this).

I seriously doubt it's the shade of the evening, but he could have got hold of a glass candle somewhere. If this is the case, my question becomes if he knows how to use it to the full. And I question how the glasscandle dreams appears and/or looks like for those who recieve them. (Tied to my started dig on Dany's dreams.)

Jan 30, 2018 9:01:07 GMT stdaga said:

The whispers and the high thin voice remind me of the warlocks of qarth. Several times the warlocks are noted for whispering.

This is interesting, and I need to look more into that. One big difference I see at once is the use of plural vs. singular in these two examples.

Jan 30, 2018 9:01:07 GMT stdaga said:

Now, to connect Bran, his dreams and the warlocks, there is this discussion between Bran and Luwin:

Here he also mentions the mages, which could imply Mirri or Marwin or someone else connected to them. A possibility, but with a 50/50 chance when looking at the whole quote.

Jan 30, 2018 9:01:07 GMT stdaga said:

I am just trying to come up with a different option besides Bloodraven for all of this, or even Bittersteel as you are speculating.

There might very well be someone else in play here! I'm far from mentioning all the possibilities!

Jan 30, 2018 9:01:07 GMT stdaga said:

I have no proof, but I think the raven and the crow are different entities or powers. Different people.

This is my initial thought as well! In general I tend to see crows and ravens as representing different things in the intire story, with this being the only time I could possibly see an exception that I'm not convinced of by a long shot. Haha!
I was reading a Jon chapter right before I read this, so it's probably just a bleed over.

Jan 30, 2018 9:01:07 GMT stdaga said:

I love this idea. :cheers

Thank you! I felt I was hit over the head with something gold(en), and it made my head spin a bit. Haha!

Just to make one thing clear: I totally agree that Bloodraven and Bittersteel represents two sides of a very, very old feud of some sort, probably connected to two opposite powers. I see it as an eternal struggle in this world, where one side will never "win" over the other (and if it did, it will probably mean the end of this world). So when I use them in any way like this, I refer to this eternal pull.

And as we have already tied this to Viserys and his unexpected gold crown, he is also in this picture. And what you bring up here is interesting indeed! Him entering Dany's dream could very well be something more than what we think. I'll take a closer look soon.

Jan 30, 2018 9:01:07 GMT stdaga said:

If Bloodraven is there, it stands to reason that Bittersteel - or the Golden Man as danl calls him - would also be there if there is something older and more primal behind their rivalry.
If there is one dream stream or more is hard to say. We have more ways to send dreams, but they could all happen on the same plane. I'll keep this in mind as I look into more dreams!

Jan 30, 2018 9:01:07 GMT stdaga said:

As I said above, I'm not sure if Bloodraven is the mist. A possibility, but I'm not sure. The reason I tie Bloodraven more to the tree is from at least one other dream Bran has later on, but I haven't broken that down yet for a post. It will come, and hopefully I can make my case stronger with this point.

As for the weirwood being a collective, that's what it is! And Bloodraven has entered it! So we have an endless supply of possible souls being in the tree in this dream, and even more if we also include blood sacrifices to it as well. I try to avoid that, as it gets too muddled for me. It could be anyone, and so it is no one. (And now I just tied it to the HoBaW :tlh

) Instead I try to find corresponding persons we have in the story, that is connected to the collective.
The one I balk at is Bran himself, as I just hate the idea of time travelling Bran... But that's my bias.

Jan 30, 2018 9:01:07 GMT stdaga said:

Interesting! I need to let this simmer for a bit before I can say anything.

Jan 30, 2018 9:01:07 GMT stdaga said:

Jan 30, 2018 3:20:29 GMT danl said:

Well, I'm not convinced that the 3EC is actually opening his third eye at all. I will have to reread everything on open third eye of any character to make a better case than I do here (again, time is a hinderance just now), but the impression of rereading several of them many times is that Bran and Arya opens them on their own. Jon hasn't had his opened at all imo. But for accuracy I'll get back to this point later. (And maybe I've changed my mind by then.)

In any case, perhaps the thing I'm reacting to is the use of force in "opening" the eye. That is not help imo, so it might be a case of semantics. In any case, forcing Bran to see something isn't kindness or helpfull. And I just can't get past the image of the crow with Bran's brain on his beak, and what that might imply. Nothing good, that's for sure!

Jan 30, 2018 9:01:07 GMT stdaga said:

I had hoped to be more organized in my response, pulling a few more quotes from the text, but I am feeling fairly drained. This dream is exhausting, and every time I have read it, I am left a bit confused and unsettled. There is so much going on, and really, you only touched on parts of the dream. I hope someday we get an explanation for some of the stuff, but I bet GRRM would rather let us flounder and try to figure it out for ourselves.

Again, love the connection to Bittersteel with the golden face! :thumbsup

It's a very confusing dream, and you can take it in so many directions! Here I've just focused on one part, and even that is a sea of opportunities...

The parts I haven't responded to I either have to think more on, or I'm not really sure what to do with yet. But I'll try to get back to as many as I can. Haha, every time I take this chapter on, I feel I'm left with a mind totally blown and don't know where to start!

And while we might never get many answers on this dream, the discussion will lead to many interesting places! :cheers

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1.17 Bran III - a tug of war? Jan 30, 2018 16:42:48 GMT stdaga likes this

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Post by shymaid on Jan 30, 2018 16:42:48 GMT

Jan 30, 2018 3:20:29 GMT danl said:

Jan 30, 2018 16:23:22 GMT stdaga said:

Forgot this in the other post!

I do think Bittersteel was influenced by someone/something, and that it's old. Very old.
It makes me think of something of a solar entity, and of course all this gold makes me think of lions via the Lannisters with Jamie as the prime example of this - a golden man in his own right. And if it's something old, it makes me think of the Lion of the Night and the Empire of the Dawn. I have to read more on that, my knowledge of what we have on that is shaky. But there might be a connection there, somehow.
:idea

And no, there is no reason to think Viserys didn't have any dreams to propel him to his golden doom. The probability is high that he had dreams as well.

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1.17 Bran III - a tug of war? Jan 31, 2018 17:46:38 GMT shymaid likes this

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Post by stdaga on Jan 31, 2018 17:46:38 GMT

Jan 30, 2018 16:28:48 GMT shymaid said:

I think if the dreams and thoughts were too similar, it would be pretty obvious they are connected, but written as vaguely similar, it can be looked at like they are much more different than they are. But truly, Bran is as terrified of the golden image/lion's/gargoyle as Dany is of the cold breath behind her. Each of those things is part of what causes Bran and Dany to have a break through. And while I agree that most people would feel exhilarated with the ability of flight, it is Dany and Bran who gain this ability in their dreams, which seems to give them a power in the real world, not just in the dream world. Also, how a 7 year old boy and a 13 year old girl, wedded and bedded, might interpret these dreams might be very different, hence the different focus's. I could be very wrong about that, however.

Jan 30, 2018 16:28:48 GMT shymaid said:

My thought process didn't come well across here... :tictoc

Any of the six Stark kids could be the winged wolf, I guess. Jon, if a person buys RLJ, with wolf and dragon blood. And Ned and Cat's kids, with wolf and Lothston via Whent via Tully blood. Bran and Sansa probably have the most imagery for it, but I can't help but think that the other Stark that Jojen set free from Winterfell was Rickon. The fact that Jojen thinks it's Bran doesn't mean that Jojen is correct. He might have been mislead and Rickon was the wolf with wings he was meant to free. That 3EC might have been pecking at Rickon's chains, too! And of course, Arya has the direct connection to Harrenhal, the very place that Mad Danelle Lothston and her giant bat's were said to call home. I can't decide which child could be the winged wolf!

Jan 30, 2018 16:28:48 GMT shymaid said:

Well, if Bloodraven isn't the mist, then someone is. It seems to show up often in our story. Now, there are grey mists and white mists, morning mists and icy mists, plain mists and pale mists, red mists and hot mists, in Jaime's dream Rhaegar is crowned in mist. Mist is all over the story. I am not sure if Bloodraven would be all of these mists, depending on his mood and the person's POV seeing the mist, or he is only one type of mist. Possibly he isn't a mist at all. But as you pointed out, a connection is made to Bloodraven and mist, but it could be a false lead.

This stands out to me about Bloodraven, however, and it has nothing to do with mist:

A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment … but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf's face threw back his head and howled. ADWD-Melisandre I

So, we are assuming that Mel is seeing Bloodraven and Bran. Bloodraven being a wooden face, corpse white. Or is that the weirnet? Also the image of a thousand red eyes floating in the rising flames. Now, are the thousand red eyes part of the wooden, corpse white face? Or is it separate? The boy with a wolf's face is probably Bran, but what if it's Rickon?

The most interesting part of this to me is the thousand red eyes. We know that weirwoods have red eyes, Bloodraven had red eyes, before one was put out and then he had only one eye, and we know that Euron carries a great red eye on his personal sigil, held by two crows. So, is part of what Mel is seeing Euron in the flames. Is Euron a tool of Bloodraven, are they not related at all, or are they opposed to one another. I can't decide that either, but it' does seem like the red eye see's all (like Sauron) but this might just hint to us of a connection to the weirwoods and their red eyes. Is Bloodraven's one red eye the reason that Euron carries a red eye on his sigil? So many thoughts rolling around in my brain.

Jan 30, 2018 16:28:48 GMT shymaid said:

In any case, perhaps the thing I'm reacting to is the use of force in "opening" the eye. That is not help imo, so it might be a case of semantics. In any case, forcing Bran to see something isn't kindness or helpfull. And I just can't get past the image of the crow with Bran's brain on his beak, and what that might imply. Nothing good, that's for sure!

It hints perhaps of cannibalism, and societies that practice cannibalism seem to believe that they are gaining something special by consuming part of the vanquished, either their strength or magic. Perhaps that is what the crow is doing? Perhaps Bran did die when he fell from that tower, and what he is now, isn't really Bran, but a reborn version of himself. Which is similar to the idea that Dany might have died and been reborn in Drogo's pyre!

Jan 30, 2018 16:28:48 GMT shymaid said:

I do think Bittersteel was influenced by someone/something, and that it's old. Very old.
It makes me think of something of a solar entity, and of course all this gold makes me think of lions via the Lannisters with Jamie as the prime example of this - a golden man in his own right. And if it's something old, it makes me think of the Lion of the Night and the Empire of the Dawn. I have to read more on that, my knowledge of what we have on that is shaky. But there might be a connection there, somehow.

Well, a solar entity is linked to the sun, and the sun is linked to the hottest of fires, where as Bran and the Stark's seem to have a moon and night and ice imagery around them, which comes right back to the idea of sun and fire versus moon and night and ice!

But, is the Lion of Night, a bright symbol or a dark symbol. Lion's are golden, but night is not! :dunno

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1.17 Bran III - a tug of war? Jan 31, 2018 20:32:08 GMT stdaga likes this

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Post by shymaid on Jan 31, 2018 20:32:08 GMT

I don't have much time right now, but couldn't resist answering to this one. The rest will have to wait a little longer.

Jan 31, 2018 17:51:23 GMT stdaga said:

It's the cannibal theme I thouched on in the OP, and was spinning on the possible meaning of the part that is consumed. Kinda like Dany eating that horse's heart for strength, could the crow be eating Bran's brain to gain something? As the brain is where all knowledge is stored, is it trying to access that?

And Bran actually being dead is interesting indeed, in particular if you notice this:

Maester Luwin made a little boy of clay, baked him till he was hard and brittle, dressed him in Bran's clothes, and flung him off a roof. Bran remembered the way he shattered. "But I never fall," he said, falling.

I didn't include this in the OP as I'm not really sure what to do with it yet, but it certainly made me think of god(s) making man out of clay. A very common motif in religion all round the world! It also includes the god(s) breathing life into the clay man. We don't know if the Maesters know CPR, but at Winterfell there is one certain Septon that hails form the Iron Islands, which DO know CPR of a fasion and is linked to ressurection using it!

The fact that he didn't die in the fall is currious, and we are reminded of that several times with the gargoyles shattering where Bran "only" broke some bones and lived. I'm not sure I'd go as far as thinking Bran is now a whight of some kind (and I've no idea of what kind of whight he'd be if he was), but it could be seen as a kind of rebirth. A heavy theme in the books to be sure!

Last Edit: Jan 31, 2018 20:35:39 GMT by shymaid: Lost my train of thought for a second...

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1.17 Bran III - a tug of war? Feb 1, 2018 18:40:17 GMT shymaid likes this

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Post by stdaga on Feb 1, 2018 18:40:17 GMT

Jan 31, 2018 20:21:19 GMT shymaid said:

I really think it might. It's an interesting thought. And later we get Bran eating the weirwood paste, which is perhaps Jojen but I hope not, and also the black sausages that are most likely wight meat (pardon the pun) that Coldhands feeds them. Do you gain some strength every time you eat something, or is it just in special cases?

Jan 31, 2018 20:21:19 GMT shymaid said:

And Bran actually being dead is interesting indeed, in particular if you notice this:

I think there is a theme that teases us with several of these characters. Are they dead and then reborn, or do they just have near death experiences? Either way, it seems to wake a power or a goal in them, something that drives their story forward.

I just reread Davos' first chapter in Storm, where he is thinking of letting himself die, but he know's there is a goal yet waiting for him. He think's it's Melisandre, but is that really why he was saved? I was toying with this idea with Tyrion as well. He survives a near fatal wound on the Blackwater, and then later he has his experience of drowning/near drowning on the Rhoyne. How many chances does Tyrion get, and what is his purpose? These are fresh in my mind as I just reread those chapter's last night, but it does link to this idea of Bran and even Dany having some type of death and rebirth or near death experience, leaving them with a feeling of needing to move forward and do something important. Bran is a bit different, I suppose, because after his fall, he is fairly lost and feeling hopeless. It is Jojen who comes and helps give him a reason to move on. Perhaps Jojen does free Bran, the chained wolf, although it is Lady and Shaggydog whom I associated with being chained. It will be very interesting to see what happens with Jon after his stabbing.

As to the idea of the clay boy and resurrection, that had never occurred to me before, but I like it. I feel rather like I missed something obvious in that, and just keep shaking my head at myself.

I don't think that Chayle was from the Iron Islands, if that is who you are referring to. He tell's Bran he grew up on the banks of the White Knife, which makes him a northerner. He does claim to swim well, however, and I have long doubted his actual death in the well at Winterfell. I guess we don't know if they ever pulled his dead body out of the well, but he's one of my lead candidates for the Hooded Man.

Certianly, the priests of the Iron Born perform something that resembles CPR, and the element of drowning is strong in the story, with several character's who seem to live through a drowning experience.

I have never thought of the gargoyles shattering while Bran lived. Still, he is rather shattered too, with legs bent in misshapen ways! And they never seemed to try to set his bones very straight after his accident, which is just nut's to me. It doesn't matter if you can't use those limbs, I would think you would still try to set those bones straight, just to help with physical healing and infection. If I could ask Luwin a couple questions, this would be one of the things I would wonder about. Possibly Bran's legs are set better than I think, and Jon is just disturbed by the first time he see's Bran, and his physical condition. Jon could fit the unreliable narrator, as well, and it's always seemed odd to me that Luwin wouldn't set Bran's legs better, just in case he might gain some use.

And it does seem like rebirth is a heavy theme in the books, but sometimes I wonder if GRRM is just teasing us with near misses that seem like something they are not.

:dunno

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1.17 Bran III - a tug of war? Feb 2, 2018 6:01:41 GMT stdaga likes this

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Post by shymaid on Feb 2, 2018 6:01:41 GMT

Feb 1, 2018 18:40:17 GMT stdaga said:

Black sausages! Now that's a bloody convenient imagery!

Of all the characters, Bran has the most cannibalism in his arc. It is interesting that he thinks about that Andal pie just before he steps through that Black Gate and with it enters a situation where he possibly starts eating people!

Gaining or not gaining something of eating people, I have no idea. Yet. Need to think about it. Could be situational and the intent behind the eating I guess. (And I'm not convinced of Jojen-paste yet, but that could be me being subborn.)

Feb 1, 2018 18:40:17 GMT stdaga said:

And it does seem like rebirth is a heavy theme in the books, but sometimes I wonder if GRRM is just teasing us with near misses that seem like something they are not.

Well, rebirth is very heavy in the story! Either with imagery (the Corn King etc) or actually ressurected people (Beric, Stoneheart, whights etc) or near misses. Some is hard to identify properly, and those I think are more teasing.
Personally I place Tyrion and Sam in that category for now, Davos is murky (sorry, unintentional pun again) as I think Bran is. The effect is still the same imo, as almost dying is rather a wake-up call. You're not the same after.

Feb 1, 2018 18:40:17 GMT stdaga said:

I just reread Davos' first chapter in Storm, where he is thinking of letting himself die, but he know's there is a goal yet waiting for him. He think's it's Melisandre, but is that really why he was saved? I was toying with this idea with Tyrion as well. He survives a near fatal wound on the Blackwater, and then later he has his experience of drowning/near drowning on the Rhoyne. How many chances does Tyrion get, and what is his purpose? These are fresh in my mind as I just reread those chapter's last night, but it does link to this idea of Bran and even Dany having some type of death and rebirth or near death experience, leaving them with a feeling of needing to move forward and do something important. Bran is a bit different, I suppose, because after his fall, he is fairly lost and feeling hopeless. It is Jojen who comes and helps give him a reason to move on. Perhaps Jojen does free Bran, the chained wolf, although it is Lady and Shaggydog whom I associated with being chained. It will be very interesting to see what happens with Jon after his stabbing.

Davos surviving is a bit of a miracle any way you look at it, and that would change a man! He's just watched three (?) of his sons die, and has to find a reason not to give up in a hopeless situation. So that could be explained purely by psychology. But in a story like this, it's hard to tell if it's something more. His later arc seems to give reason to think there was something more to it, being the balancing force he is to Stannis.
By my counting, Tyrion has had two misses so far. So he could get one more chance, as three is the usual number for things like this. The purpose is harder to determine, as I suspect he could end up as a corrupting agent to Dany if they get together as they probably will.

As for Dany and Bran, it's more complicated. Bran had his vision, where Dany did not as far as we know. In fact, to me it seems like she incorporates her second dream in most of her decisions: "If I look back, I am lost". Until her last chapter. Bran IS lost after waking up, as one would expect, but has advisors "sent" to him. Both arcs need full break-downs, and I haven't gotten that far yet.

The chained wolf: thinking about it, the thought passed my mind that it's quite fitting for more than one Stark child and/or direwolf. You could make it fit more than one, and it's Jojen who interprets it as just one and he might be wrong! In this as in other things. The usual question of interpreting dreams...

Feb 1, 2018 18:40:17 GMT stdaga said:

As to the idea of the clay boy and resurrection, that had never occurred to me before, but I like it. I feel rather like I missed something obvious in that, and just keep shaking my head at myself.

I don't think that Chayle was from the Iron Islands, if that is who you are referring to. He tell's Bran he grew up on the banks of the White Knife, which makes him a northerner. He does claim to swim well, however, and I have long doubted his actual death in the well at Winterfell. I guess we don't know if they ever pulled his dead body out of the well, but he's one of my lead candidates for the Hooded Man.

Certianly, the priests of the Iron Born perform something that resembles CPR, and the element of drowning is strong in the story, with several character's who seem to live through a drowning experience.

The clay boy only made sense to me in the reread that spawned this thread. It's been nagging at something in my brain since my first read, but I couldn't place it, haha! As I say, I haven't been able to place it to my satisfaction yet. But as a theme/image it is there.

Chayle... Head-canon fail! :bag

Got him mixed up with the Iron Born that comes later... This is what you get for not bothering to look things up before posting!

What we do have is Luwin the Valyrian-linked Maester placed in the position as kind of a creator. Where the breath of life comes in is diffucult to say, as we don't get the scene where Bran is found or his initial treatment. Still pondering this!

Feb 1, 2018 18:40:17 GMT stdaga said:

I have never thought of the gargoyles shattering while Bran lived. Still, he is rather shattered too, with legs bent in misshapen ways! And they never seemed to try to set his bones very straight after his accident, which is just nut's to me. It doesn't matter if you can't use those limbs, I would think you would still try to set those bones straight, just to help with physical healing and infection. If I could ask Luwin a couple questions, this would be one of the things I would wonder about. Possibly Bran's legs are set better than I think, and Jon is just disturbed by the first time he see's Bran, and his physical condition. Jon could fit the unreliable narrator, as well, and it's always seemed odd to me that Luwin wouldn't set Bran's legs better, just in case he might gain some use.

The gargoyles are spesifically compared with Bran's fall by Bran himself (IIRC) and later by Theon in Dance. And yes he is broken by the fall, but to me the text implies he SHOULD have died. And the mystery of him not doing so is made a point several times. I have no idea of the reason for him surviving.

The setting of his bones is also a bit odd, as the same thought have crossed my mind. Every read of that Jon-chapter in fact. But as you say, it could be Jon's own thoughts taking over. He was at Winterfell that day and could have seen Bran on the ground or something. As a person with an irrational fear of seeing broken bones (knock on wood!), I can relate to the possibility of him imagining this detail. We never hear of his legs bending in all directions later by anyone else, and that would be a difficult detail to replicate with the older Miller's boy later. So I think the bones were set.

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1.17 Bran III - a tug of war? Feb 2, 2018 8:54:14 GMT stdaga likes this

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Post by shymaid on Feb 2, 2018 8:54:14 GMT

Feb 1, 2018 18:40:17 GMT stdaga said:

The hard part with Martin's writing is to identify what is connected and what is not. I'm not convinced these dreams are connected, but merely have similarities. I tend to think Bran's dream is in a category of it's own, considering it is a coma-dream. Dany's is a "regular" dream.
I don't agree that the golden man is what gives Bran his breakthrough, but the ground leaping up at him. The obvious part of the golden man is the trauma Bran had, and the crow is discouraging him from looking at it. Who knows where his dream would've ended up if he had looked at it, but we could end up in eternal circles going into all the what-ifs here. For Dany, the cold isn't anything to do with an obvious trauma, so I place it in a different group. The age difference would play a role, but at the same time the dream state puts the dreamer in a more premordial state of mind. Feelings are more raw and potent. Still, I see Bran as the more rational of the two when looking at them side by side. Perhaps as his dream isn't a normal dream?
So there are some similarities, but I don't see them as nearly identical or anything close to that. But all readers see things differently!

Feb 1, 2018 18:40:17 GMT stdaga said:

There are several possibilities for the winged wold in chains! That Jojen sees it as representing just one person could be his flawed interpretation, like we see Melisandre struggle with hers. As Jojen is so young, he could easily be taking them in a wrong way. If the wolf really is just one person, my money is on Rickon as well.

Feb 1, 2018 18:40:17 GMT stdaga said:

My jury is out on the mist being any spesific person/entity, here or in Jamie's dream. I have to reread all of them carefully, and that will take some time. The link to Bloodraven is rather weak imo, even if it is possible. I'll have to keep that (as well) in mind as I reread.

And you just point out why I hesitate to make a deep investigation of mist in the story... It could be something, and it could be nothing, depending on circumstanses. Will take time, if it ever happens.

Feb 1, 2018 18:40:17 GMT stdaga said:

For now I've just read that in the usual way as Brynden an Bran in the cave. What springs to mind right now is the weirwood mask that wildling woman has, was Marna her name? For all we know, women like that might be at Skagos as well, if that's where Rickon is now.
That's all I have on that for now.

Feb 1, 2018 18:40:17 GMT stdaga said:

Bran's arc most certainly takes him into the cold, but another point I have in my personal notes on this chapter is near the end:

And then there was movement beside the bed, and something landed lightly on his legs. He felt nothing. A pair of yellow eyes looked into his own, shining like the sun. The window was open and it was cold in the room, but the warmth that came off the wolf enfolded him like a hot bath. His pup, Bran realized … or was it? He was so big now. He reached out to pet him, his hand trembling like a leaf.

In a way, Summer is the enbodyment of the sun here with the link to his eyes. Being enfolded like a hot bath makes me think of Cat's room at Winterfell and her description in her second chapter. So this made me question if Bran isn't more Tully in this sense. Something I will keep an eye out for in the reread. And lastly, his hand compared to a leaf of course lends the mind to the weirwood and also Leaf, but in this context it could be connected to leaves in general and therefor spring and summer. Just some initial thoughts here.

As for the Lion of the Night, that was in part real-time thinking. I have read little and less on the ancient history so far, getting the World Book after starting this reread and continuing the one I was already on.
What I can say now, as for symbolism, is that yes a lion is a solar symbol and so opposed to night. But in mesoamerican mythology, it can be connected to the concept of the Black Sun (I ignore the nazi trail in this concept) which as many meanings. Any connection isn't direct, but the Black Sun is tied to Quetzalcoatl, "the feathered serpent" interestingly enough, who is tied to ressurection and suns. And as sun = lion, it could be something there, scrambled in the usual Martin way. The pages linked to has a good overview of these myths imo.

Or I could be way off course here...

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1.17 Bran III - a tug of war? Feb 2, 2018 16:24:39 GMT shymaid likes this

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Post by stdaga on Feb 2, 2018 16:24:39 GMT

Feb 2, 2018 12:10:25 GMT shymaid said:

Of all the characters, Bran has the most cannibalism in his arc. It is interesting that he thinks about that Andal pie just before he steps through that Black Gate and with it enters a situation where he possibly starts eating people!

Gaining or not gaining something of eating people, I have no idea. Yet. Need to think about it. Could be situational and the intent behind the eating I guess. (And I'm not convinced of Jojen-paste yet, but that could be me being subborn.)

Bran seems to cross many lines. Sweet, young Bran. He is eating people. He is skinchanging humans, and he is eating human flesh as Summer, which are two (of three) things that Varymyr tell's us that Haggon claimed were abominations. Bran is just skipping right over the abomination line. We hear rumor's of this with Robb too, as someone tells Catelyn that Robb cut out a man's heart (Stafford Lannister) and fed it to Grey Wind. Cat denies this happened, but I am not so sure it didn't.

Of course, if you are never taught rules, can it be held against you if you break those untaught rules?

Feb 2, 2018 12:10:25 GMT shymaid said:

The effect is still the same imo, as almost dying is rather a wake-up call. You're not the same after.

Yes, for sure! I am not convinced either way about the rebirth or near miss idea. And we may never get a clear answer on it, as I think GRRM will leave many things vague, and open to interpretation.

Feb 2, 2018 12:10:25 GMT shymaid said:

The chained wolf: thinking about it, the thought passed my mind that it's quite fitting for more than one Stark child and/or direwolf. You could make it fit more than one, and it's Jojen who interprets it as just one and he might be wrong! In this as in other things. The usual question of interpreting dreams...

It really can. And I do wonder that Jojen isn't being used or misused by an entity for his powers, and he might also be misinterpreting his own dreams, leading them all astray. I think Meera thinks this sometimes. Strangely, Jojen seems determined that Bran should not go to Jon, but I am not sure why that really is.

Feb 2, 2018 12:10:25 GMT shymaid said:

It is. Bran tells us this happened before he fell, but sometimes I had wondered if Luwin really made the clay boy to show Bran how dangerous his climbing was, or this was a dream that Bran had (a dream predicting his own fall long before it happened), and Luwin never made the clay boy. I really don't know.

Feb 2, 2018 12:10:25 GMT shymaid said:

Chayle... Head-canon fail! :bag

Got him mixed up with the Iron Born that comes later... This is what you get for not bothering to look things up before posting!

It's so hard to remember everything. I keep A Search of Ice and Fire open all of the time. What a great resource. I often have a skewed memory of the text, but then when I look it up or catch something on reread, it's not what I had at first thought or remembered. Years ago, I got busted on little details like this over on Westeros, and it has made me try hard to double check information before I post.

The Chayle thing was interesting, because I wondered what Iron Born would do to a person from the Iron Islands who was following a religion that isn't of the Drowned God, which is what their prophet Aeron Greyjoy practices. I would think the Iron Born might not be so forgiving of those types of people, but they are pretty harsh anyway, so I am not sure it matters.

What I have wondered about Chayle is that Theon knew him for years, and perhaps knew that Chayle was a good swimmer. Did Theon give Chayle to the water in hopes that he might actually survive? Theon made some terrible decisions, but Winterfell was still in better hands with him in charge as opposed to Ramsay. Theon even thinks the people of Winterfell should appreciate him, as he is the only thing keeping them safe from the likes of Reek. Of course, that is full of irony!

Feb 2, 2018 12:10:25 GMT shymaid said:

What we do have is Luwin the Valyrian-linked Maester placed in the position as kind of a creator. Where the breath of life comes in is diffucult to say, as we don't get the scene where Bran is found or his initial treatment. Still pondering this!

Hmm! Perhaps Bran owes more of his survival to Luwin than I thought. Perhaps some part of Luwin's "magic" teaching helped him keep Bran alive, but the physical setting of broken limbs became not as important as some other "healing" that Luwin was responsible for. I will ponder this for a bit!

Feb 2, 2018 12:10:25 GMT shymaid said:

The setting of his bones is also a bit odd, as the same thought have crossed my mind. Every read of that Jon-chapter in fact. But as you say, it could be Jon's own thoughts taking over. He was at Winterfell that day and could have seen Bran on the ground or something. As a person with an irrational fear of seeing broken bones (knock on wood!), I can relate to the possibility of him imagining this detail. We never hear of his legs bending in all directions later by anyone else, and that would be a difficult detail to replicate with the older Miller's boy later. So I think the bones were set.

It could be Jon's imagining Bran's physical condition to be worse than it really is. And you are correct. Perhaps Jon did see Bran just after the fall, before Bran was carried off to his sick room. I had never thought of that. And if the bones were poorly set, then more people might have noticed the Miller's boys could not have been Bran and Rickon, but I don't think many people looked very closely at those bodies. I actaully think that Luwin suspected those were not Rickon and Bran's bodies because of the muscles in the boys' legs, not because of hidious crooked legs. Another hint that Jon, no matter how much we enjoy his character, is also an unreliable narrator. Reading those concurrent Jon and Sam chapters in Feast and Dance are interesting. They are similar but not exact, but which of them is being inconsistent?

I will have to look at your second post later, hopefully today. Good thoughts here on Luwin, Bran and Jon. Stuff to think about.

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1.17 Bran III - a tug of war? Feb 2, 2018 19:29:35 GMT

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Post by stdaga on Feb 2, 2018 19:29:35 GMT

Feb 2, 2018 12:10:25 GMT shymaid said:

I am not saying the dreams are identical, or nearly identical, but one can't deny there are some major similarities. I have started to question if all of the dreams come from the same place, the same dream stream, and the differences we see in the dreams are merely the difference in POV and life experience of the dreamer. And that several different powers have access to these dreams, and can communicate through the dreams, but probably for different reasons and with different methods.

There are other instances of "flying" or "falling" in the story. Sweetrobin has dreams and wants to "make the bad man fly", but what does he really mean? Is he just a sick little kid who wants to see people fall out the moon door, or is it something more. Speaking of falling, that is what happens to Lysa. She fall's, is pushed really, out the moon door, and she fall's, but does that fall feel like flight, if only for a few seconds? Lysa's fall makes me think of what we are told of Ashara, and how she jumped from a tower to her death. But did she jump? Did she fall by accident? Was she pushed, as Lysa was? Did she too have dreams about flight? I think Lysa had dreams or visions, like I think that Can has a "feeling" or premonition about things. Perhaps Ashara did, as well?

And Ned has dreams, "troubled sleep", he tells us in his POV, but we get to see only a fraction of his dreams. Do all Stark's have dreams? Or just Eddard, and the younger generation of Stark's that are known to be his children? I have no idea, but I bet there are far more dreamers in this story than non-dreamers. I think GRRM is only giving us hints at dreams from different perspectives, and they seem different but are really very, very similar because they all come from the same place.

Robert Baratheon claims to have dreams, and I don't think that they are all wishful thinking or hopes. We only get a few hints at his dreams, but I can't help but remember this is a man descended from the Storm King, whom claims descend from the Storm God, and Robert also has recent Targaryen blood.

Jaime dreams, Cersei dreams and Tyrion dreams, all somewhat different, but still with similar themes. Are these Andal dreams? Are they Targaryen/dragon dreams, if Aerys turns out to be their father?

Honestly, I don't think anything about Dany's dreams are regular! And she has what appear to be several different types of dreams, but I am not sure that the differences are as different as they seem. And some of her dreams are very like Jon's dreams. Jon recognizes the Kings of Winter in his dreams, because he grew up with the crypts of Winterfell, while Dany dreams a very similar image, but she doesn't know what it is. Now, it's possible that they are not dreaming of the same rows of kings, but that the Winterfell crypts are inspired by whatever Dany is seeing in her dreams, or vice versa! We have no idea how Valyrian's buried their dead. We only have an SSM were GRRM tells us that Targaryen's cremate their dead, which certainly doesn't apply to all Valyrian's. Possibly the rows of statues have nothing to do with Valyria, but is related to the Empire of the Dawn or even something from Asshai. I have some tinfoil that the Stark's are descended from people from Asshai, but I have only one little connection in the text to go on, so it's very thin tinfoil.

Dany dreams of blood (as you have pointed out that seem to correlate to Viserys), and that seems to correlate to aspects of her womanhood. Sansa also had dreams of blood, although she dreams she is being stabbed in her belly when she get's her first period. Blood is most definitely part of womanhood. It will be interesting to see if Arya has any dreams that come with her womenhood.

Now, I think it's very possible that there are different powers trying to make contact with people during these dreams, and those different powers probably have far different agendas, perhaps even opposite agendas. A person would feel very torn and confused if this was the case. And I do think a persons age, life experience would alter how they see or interpret the dreams. I think the source is the same but how the influences on the dreams differ, if that makes any sense.

Feb 2, 2018 12:10:25 GMT shymaid said:

The types of mists might not be connected at all. But certainly, we think that Jaime's dream of Rhaegar (and many other things) is related to the weirnet and we know that Bloodraven is linked to the weirnet. Now, I am not sure why the crown that Rhaegar wear's is made of mist, but I thought it was interesting that we get that in Jaime's dream. And Eddard dreams of grey wraith's on horses made of mist. Possibly, GRRM just likes to write about mist, as it has a ethereal, dream like quality. I am not sure that all the types of mist are the same person, such as Bloodraven, but they could be.

I agree there are so many types of dreams that it's almost overwhelming. Possibly, I am seeing connections were there really are none there. And I am not saying they are 100% the same, or even similar, but I think they all come from the same place. Like a dream spring that run's through this world. Similar to a spring of fresh water bubbling from the ground. Some people drink the water pure, some people wash their hands with it, some people make moonshine with it, but it all comes from the same source. Perhaps?

Feb 2, 2018 12:10:25 GMT shymaid said:

I really don't know either, but the weirwood mask is interesting. Morna White Mask, I think. And Morna pledges to Jon with a kiss, in a more traditional pledge of fealty, which I think is odd for a wildling, but I think her backstory is not just a common wildling leader. She is given Queensgate to hold, and I think that is important. And her white mask is almost opposite of Quaithe's lacquered red mask. It the color itself a clue, or does the red lacquer cover a weirwood mask?

I am more inclined to think that the thousand red eyes are the eye's of the weirnet, and the fact that Mel see's them in the flames is one of the reasons she had Stannis burn the weirwood at Storm's End, and want's Jon to burn the weirwood at Winterfell. But, is she correct or is she misinterpreting this, as she is known to do. If all of her visions come from the weirnet, and she destroys it, she destroy's her own power.

Feb 2, 2018 12:10:25 GMT shymaid said:

The leaf thing might be a connection to Bran's love of climbing, not just stone walls, but tree's also. Like a squirrel that his father claims he is. And I think Bran thinks that Leaf reminds him of Arya, mistakes her for Arya for a moment.

As to Summer the wolf, the eyes, the heat, it certainly makes a connection to Summer the season, with light and warmth. It has always been interesting to me that Bran struggled to name his direwolf when all the other children seemed to find quick names for their pups. But Bran is as much winter as he is summer, and as all things in life, there must be a balance of a sort. A summer that never ends may seem like a gift, but is it really? It certainly seems more pleasant than a Winter that never ends, but it seems the world needs both things. It's a cycle, like the Corn King sacrifice. A person sacrificed at the end of Summer, which is the beginning of Winter, to help bring the summer again after the winter cycle.

Feb 2, 2018 12:10:25 GMT shymaid said:

As for the Lion of the Night, that was in part real-time thinking. I have read little and less on the ancient history so far, getting the World Book after starting this reread and continuing the one I was already on.
What I can say now, as for symbolism, is that yes a lion is a solar symbol and so opposed to night. But in mesoamerican mythology, it can be connected to the concept of the Black Sun (I ignore the nazi trail in this concept) which as many meanings. Any connection isn't direct, but the Black Sun is tied to Quetzalcoatl, "the feathered serpent" interestingly enough, who is tied to ressurection and suns. And as sun = lion, it could be something there, scrambled in the usual Martin way. The pages linked to has a good overview of these myths imo.

I will have to give this a better look over and some thought before I respond.

Feb 2, 2018 12:10:25 GMT shymaid said:

Or I could be way off course here...

Well, we all could be. But trying to figure it out is certainly fun!

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1.17 Bran III - a tug of war? Feb 3, 2018 5:37:39 GMT stdaga likes this

Quote

Post by shymaid on Feb 3, 2018 5:37:39 GMT

Feb 2, 2018 19:29:35 GMT stdaga said:

I'm pretty sure we'll see Bran copulating with the shewolf in Summer's skin before the end of the books... So perhaps he'll become Bran the Abomination... I cringe everytime I read the possible cannibalism and his Hodor-warging!

With Robb I think it's hard to say, as rumors tend to be so far out there it's hillarious! Still, much and more can happen during and right after a battle...

If Ygritte is anything to go by, and the gods frown upon a kinslayer even if he is unaware of the kinship... There might very well be consequences for breaking them, even if they are not told. Time will tell!

Feb 2, 2018 19:29:35 GMT stdaga said:

Yes, for sure! I am not convinced either way about the rebirth or near miss idea. And we may never get a clear answer on it, as I think GRRM will leave many things vague, and open to interpretation.

And makes for a better story! If we are told everything, it looses some of the pull of the books!

Feb 2, 2018 19:29:35 GMT stdaga said:

I wouldn't be suprised if he was visited by the 3EC as well, or some other not-so-good entity that is leading him astray! Or a combo of that and misinterpretation. I find it a bit irritating that he refuses to listen to his sister at times!

There are good reasons for them not to go to Jon, or could be at least. Hard to say what might have happened in the end if they did go to Castle Black. But on the surface, they do meet Jon and the wildlings on the southside of the Wall, and the attack is just about to happen, so the timing would be horrible!

Feb 2, 2018 19:29:35 GMT stdaga said:

Huh, hadn't thought about that! For now I'm inclined to think it happened, but I will keep this in mind.

Feb 2, 2018 19:29:35 GMT stdaga said:

Usually I do as well! Note to self: don't post when you really are too tired!

Feb 2, 2018 19:29:35 GMT stdaga said:

The Chayle thing was interesting, because I wondered what Iron Born would do to a person from the Iron Islands who was following a religion that isn't of the Drowned God, which is what their prophet Aeron Greyjoy practices. I would think the Iron Born might not be so forgiving of those types of people, but they are pretty harsh anyway, so I am not sure it matters.

There are followers of the Faith at the Islands, and for the most part it seems to go ok. But there is some antagonism as well, but of course we mostly hear of that from the POV of Aeron, so...

Feb 2, 2018 19:29:35 GMT stdaga said:

What I have wondered about Chayle is that Theon knew him for years, and perhaps knew that Chayle was a good swimmer. Did Theon give Chayle to the water in hopes that he might actually survive? Theon made some terrible decisions, but Winterfell was still in better hands with him in charge as opposed to Ramsay. Theon even thinks the people of Winterfell should appreciate him, as he is the only thing keeping them safe from the likes of Reek. Of course, that is full of irony!

It's certainly possible that's why he chose Chayle.

Looking at the timing of when Theon thinks that, it's really stupid imo! The people would be best off under the Starks to be sure. But it is great forshadowing for what is to come.

Feb 2, 2018 19:29:35 GMT stdaga said:

It is possible if one takes the image and run with it. But as I've said, I don't really know where to go with this. Somthing that has to simmer I think, so I'm pondering as well!

Feb 2, 2018 19:29:35 GMT stdaga said:

Even with hardly a look, legs in all directions would be distinctive! And Luwin does take a better look than that as you say. Much point to the fact that the legs were set, including his basket which would be hard to use unless they are somewhat back to normal. So Jon isn't reliable!

Feb 2, 2018 19:29:35 GMT stdaga said:

Well, you have thought much more on the nature of dreams in the story than me; I've just started to scratch the surface. So I'm not really sure how to response to this, as I need to reread closely first. I will keep the dream stream in mind as I do! :cheers

Just one thing! When I said Dany's dreams is regular, I just wanted to distinguish them from Bran's coma dream which I think lies in a separate category entirely. Dany's dreams might not be regular at all, but closer to a regular dream than Bran's great falling dream here.

Feb 2, 2018 19:29:35 GMT stdaga said:

Hard to say if Martin is using mist to say anything or just creating a dreamy image!

The different sort of dreams isn't so formidable to me, it's the many sorts of mists that has me :tlh

...

Feb 2, 2018 19:29:35 GMT stdaga said:

Or does Quaithe have a lackered ebony mask?

Feb 2, 2018 19:29:35 GMT stdaga said:

I am more inclined to think that the thousand red eyes are the eye's of the weirnet, and the fact that Mel see's them in the flames is one of the reasons she had Stannis burn the weirwood at Storm's End, and want's Jon to burn the weirwood at Winterfell. But, is she correct or is she misinterpreting this, as she is known to do. If all of her visions come from the weirnet, and she destroys it, she destroy's her own power.

I doubt Mel's power comes from the weirnet. More probable from the opposite powersource imo.

Feb 2, 2018 19:29:35 GMT stdaga said:

Good thoughts here! Summer is the only "seasonal wolf" of the litter, and that could be hard to identify. I will look for clues to Bran's "heat level" imagery wise, as I haven't looked for that so far.

Feb 2, 2018 19:29:35 GMT stdaga said:

I will have to give this a better look over and some thought before I respond.

I'm only tossing out the possibility without looking at it closely myself first! Another possibility is the alchemical connection with the color black - transformation through burning. Again, something I haven't had the time to look into much yet. Just flinging it at the Wall!
I swear, the rabbit holes have turned into wormholes for me in this reread! :freak

Feb 2, 2018 19:29:35 GMT stdaga said:

Well, we all could be. But trying to figure it out is certainly fun!

It sure is! I've never worked with any books in this way before! Or at least not with novels!

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1.17 Bran III - a tug of war? Feb 3, 2018 16:33:12 GMT shymaid likes this

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Post by stdaga on Feb 3, 2018 16:33:12 GMT

Feb 3, 2018 12:24:06 GMT shymaid said:

I think that each line a skinchanger crosses, the more powerful they become. Perhaps those rules that Haggon lived by were only things he was cautious of. Varamyr certainly thought they were things that held Haggon back. If you cross off one of the "abominations" on Haggon's list, your ability grows. That might benefit Bran someday!

The down side is seeing the mental rape of Hodor, or seeing how weak Bran's body get's when he is "in Summer". As to Bran as Summer tagging a she-wolf, I would much rather see that, then Bran as Hodor raping Meera, which is something I really worry could happen.

Feb 3, 2018 12:24:06 GMT shymaid said:

With Robb I think it's hard to say, as rumors tend to be so far out there it's hillarious! Still, much and more can happen during and right after a battle...

I think Robb did that, and I wonder if he didn't spend a little time in Grey Wind while he ate that heart. That would give Robb a bit more power as a skinchanger, I think, and that feed's into my tinfoil about the Red Wedding. I seen a pretty good post a couple years back on Westeros about this. If you are interested, I could try to find the thread again.

Feb 3, 2018 12:24:06 GMT shymaid said:

If Ygritte is anything to go by, and the gods frown upon a kinslayer even if he is unaware of the kinship... There might very well be consequences for breaking them, even if they are not told. Time will tell!

It seems a bit unfair to hold a death against you, if you don't know they are your blood. Could this be something that Ygritte was incorrect about?

Feb 3, 2018 12:24:06 GMT shymaid said:

My brothers refuse to listen to me at times, and I find that rather irritating!

Feb 3, 2018 12:24:06 GMT shymaid said:

There are good reasons for them not to go to Jon, or could be at least. Hard to say what might have happened in the end if they did go to Castle Black. But on the surface, they do meet Jon and the wildlings on the southside of the Wall, and the attack is just about to happen, so the timing would be horrible!

Well, Jon is not aware of the close call, although he does think that it was Summer that saved him. I am not sure what might have happened, but Jon's loyalty to the watch might have been tested earlier, which could have caused him never to become Lord Commander. It's possible the avoidance was a good thing, but still, it makes a person wonder why Jojen was so determined that Bran not seek Jon's help.

And yes, I would agree that Jojen probably has some not so great influences steering his actions, although he would not know he was unwittingly causing harm. If he is! Hard to say.

Feb 3, 2018 12:24:06 GMT shymaid said:

There are followers of the Faith at the Islands, and for the most part it seems to go ok. But there is some antagonism as well, but of course we mostly hear of that from the POV of Aeron, so...

For some reason I thought that the Faith of the Seven wasn't tolerated on the Iron Islands, but maybe that is a blip from history, and not the current Iron Islands. Too lazy to try to research that right now.

Feb 3, 2018 12:24:06 GMT shymaid said:

I get your meaning on Dany's dreams now. The regular did throw me a bit, the other day. One thing I wonder about with Bran's coma dream is the time frame that it occurs over. Dreams are funny things in the real world, and fiction can make them even more remarkable. Is what we see of Bran's dream actually taking place over weeks instead of a small portion of time, say just minutes or hours before he woke up? A longer dream period almost makes more sense to me, considering all the different influences it seems there are occurring in the dream.

We get hints of this with Bran's wolf dreams, were he thinks it is but a few moments, but in reality, he is dreaming as Summer for up to three days, some times! Too long! Easy to get lost in those dreams, and I wonder if the coma dream wasn't the same thing. Bran was lost in it for weeks, possibly longer, as the time frame of his coma is vague. It could be up to almost two months.

I find the dreams to be rather amazing, over the whole story. The dreams we know about and the ones that are implied. And I speculate that there are more dreams that lead people, but we have not been clued into that yet! Time will tell!

Feb 3, 2018 12:24:06 GMT shymaid said:

Or does Quaithe have a lackered ebony mask?

It's possible it's a wood in opposition to weirwood. So ebony is a possibility. The fact that it is painted red is a clue to tell us something or to hide something from us. I still question a nod to Ashara/Arthur with hints of King Arthur and his sister Morgan, who I have found depicted wearing a mask. Of course, that only works if Quaithe is Ashara, and I know that is not a favored theory, but it's one I like, especially if Dany has Dayne blood.

Another wood that I question is the wood from the Shade of the Evening tree's. Is it ebony? Is it ironwood? Some other type of wood. If the leaves have power, one would think the wood would, too!

Feb 3, 2018 12:24:06 GMT shymaid said:

I doubt Mel's power comes from the weirnet. More probable from the opposite powersource imo.

I am not so sure about that, but time will probably tell.

Feb 3, 2018 12:24:06 GMT shymaid said:

I've never worked with any books in this way before! Or at least not with novels!

Me neither. The depth and layers of these novel's is stunning!

Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.

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1.17 Bran III - a tug of war?

Post by shymaid on Jan 19, 2018 13:16:31 GMT

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