Post by stdaga on May 17, 2018 15:53:26 GMT
I had to think on this a bit, but you raise an interesting point. We only see the Other's on two occasions in the books, both in the darkness, and even the wights only seem to be a problem at night. But the wights must exist all of the time, but only press on during night, and night is when the Others seem to have power. So, what does happen to the Others when the sun is rising? Do they lose their power? Do they disappear into the mist? What are their swords made of and do the swords also disappear in the light?
It is certainly possible that the shadow baby ceased to exist when Stannis awoke, but it almost seems to me if that is the case, then the shadow should return to Stannis and he becomes whole again. But that is not the case with Stannis. He seems withered, skeletal, grey, less than he was. And Mel says his fires burn low, or something like that. Which makes me think that the shadow/soul can't just disappear into nothing, it has to exist somewhere, even if it's not back with Stannis.
These are pretty "off the cuff" kind of thoughts. Just actively processing some ideas about what might be happening as I type. I agree that the shadow baby's blade can do as much harm as the blade of the Other's, as we see with Renly and Waymer both. And these beings do seem like opposites of each other, one white or almost blending into the surrounding area, but the same could be said for the black shadow that killed Renly. Cat see's the shadow against the tent wall, but that is all. And Renly declares "cold", which actually reminds me of the Others, and how the air get's cold when they come. One would almost think if they are opposites, one type of shadow would bring cold while the other would bring heat?
It doesn't make much sense that they both bring the cold, unless a person considers that death is cold and life is hot. I need to think on this some more.
For the Mel equivalent should be look to Bloodraven? Or maybe the children of the forest? Or to Craster?
I would say that the damage done by both the other and the shadow is concrete, as it is responsible for the stabbing death of Waymer and Renly. But the shadow that killed Renly isn't concrete itself at all, and that makes me wonder about the Other's, too. Except Waymar dueled with one, their swords clashing. Perhaps the physical presence is only in the weapons they carry?
And if Mel can conjure up a fire shadow baby using the seed of a man, something/someone should be able to conjure up an ice being. Perhaps that is what Craster's son's are for, for being able to breed an ice shadow by use of their seed and soul.
I have questioned how much influence Mel has over her shadow once it is cast. It must have a source it seeks or a goal, but does she actually control it like a puppet, or does it control itself with a mission having been assigned? Could this work for Other's also. Is there a womb that accepts a donation of seed and then births an ice shadow. This brings back hints of the Night's Queen/Corpse Queen, and the Night's King giving her his seed. Did his seed not create human babies, but ice shadow babies that walked the earth in darkness and cold? If Mel controls the actions of the shadow baby, does this hint that she has some type of skinchanger power? The same thing that the Night's Queen/ice womb has and is looking for?
I am not saying this source is the actual Night's Queen, although perhaps it is, but it could also be a woman who has learned ice magic like Mel has learned fire magic. We know that Mel is probably much older than she says she is, and perhaps is even dead and reborn, so does this equal what we see in the side of cold and ice. Mel is stunningly beautiful, with red eyes and copper hair and she dresses in many shades of red.
Who is stunningly beautiful, with coloring opposite Mel? My mind goes to Val. Val with her honey blond hair who often dresses in white, Val who is noted to have grey eyes except after she comes back from north of the wall, when her eyes are noted by Jon to be blue. In that instance when Jon see's Val again, she is noted to be beautiful, blond, dressed in white and with blue eyes, which paints her almost as an opposite of Melisandre and her red hair, red eyes, red clothing. Mel is fire and Val is ice/winter.
Sorry, this is a bit of a tangent, but if Val is the winter/ice/night version of Mel, has she always been this way, or did she undergo some type of transformation when she went north of the wall on her one eyed garron to find Tormund? (That one-eyed horse makes me think of Bloodraven) Her eyes were noted to be grey before and now are noted to be blue. Jon doesn't describe them as the blue of the others, like burning stars, but it's still a very odd thing. This is another thing I will need to ponder a while.
Whatever balances out Mel's power has to be a woman, I think, whether it's Val or not. It occurs to me that there needs to be a womb involved for the process of Mel and fire/shadow babies and it stands to reason that a womb is needed for ice babies. And perhaps that is all the beings that we have seen so far are, ice/shadow babies.
And Ghost is interesting with both Mel and Val, as he seems to have pretty good instincts with people, but he seems to show affection for both Mel, as well as a strange connection to Val. Who is manipulating who, if one accepts the idea that Ghost is an extension of Bloodraven?
My head is buzzing with thoughts!
First, I have to acknowledge that there is no evidence of the unique in-breeding that seems to be important in Craster's sons, or of anything that might be equivalent (whatever that might mean). I have no idea what the significance of that in-breeding is, but I think it is significant somehow.
Maybe the in-breeding is important because it is the North. Cold climates have small populations. Warm climates have larger populations (except desert). Those small cold climate populations (referring to animals more than humans) tend to be specialized in various ways for the cold. In the warmer climate with a larger population, it may be an option to use a lot of children and some will survive and others won't. In the colder climate, it may be more important to begin with those who are genetically suited for the purpose.
We know very little of Craster's sons. Presumably they are used by the Others for power, or are made into tools of the Others, or are made into Others. We are given a hint when Craster's sons are coming. That would seem to indicate that they are the Others.
If Craster's sons can be transformed into those strange creatures, maybe other children can undergo similar transformation. Many may not survive it, and many transformations may be imperfect, but maybe enough are suitable for Varys' purposes.
This notion is probably not consistent with my theory above that the Others are similar in nature to the Shadow Baby. Right now, I not so much trying to work out a consistent theory as throwing some ideas out. I think I will collect the relevant quotes, though, and see if I can develop something
Maybe no inbreeding is needed for Craster's son, but Craster uses this idea to control his daughter/wives with that knowledge. He certainly has huge authority over these women, but perhaps it is based on a lie. That would help out with your idea on the male and female children of all walks of life that Varys seems to have under his wing. There is no special blood, just blood itself. That almost fit's more with GRRM's idea that we should all be mutt's. But Craster uses the idea of blood to control his situation, just as the highborn use the concept of their blood to control the lowborn.
I have speculated before that perhaps Dalla was one of Craster's daughter/wives. Craster makes a comment about Mance "sniffing" around, and that wording makes me think of a man looking for a woman. I could be very wrong, but I do think it's interesting that Dalla dies before Gilly can meet her. Would they have recognized each other. No proof, just more wild speculation!
Now, I do think blood has to be somewhat important in this story, at least as far as dragon bonding and warging and skinchanging go, but perhaps that will turn out not to be the case, either.
I don't have much to contribute at the moment to your idea's on what Varys might be up too, this is not my strength in this story by any means. It is something that I am going to think about a bit more.
Varys the eunuch! I am not sure why Varys would tell this story to Tyrion, but I will say that Tyrion is very connected emotionally to his manhood, and he seems to pity Varys for being a eunuch, but with Varys telling this story to Tyrion, I think it also causes some fear in Tyrion. And it might cause Tyrion to feel a bit less suspicious of Varys, including the knowledge that Varys helped save him from the dungeons. Honestly, Tyrion is a pretty smart dude, but has been often led astray by women and sex. What kind of things could he accomplish if he lost that area of focus? Perhaps Varys is after Tyrion's manhood? I know that is crazy, and this is coming to me on the fly, but what if there could be a willing sacrifice involved with Tyrion's manhood. We hear of some rites that happen when the Unsullied are cut, with their manhood being burned on the alter of the Lady of Spears. It's almost like Varys is parroting part of this story to Tyrion. I think there is nothing in this world that Tyrion values more than his cock, with his tongue a close second place. We even get several descriptions of Tyrion's man parts, which makes me think they might be important.
This also leads me to wonder if Varys could have been in Unsullied training at one point, with his story of the alter, or I wonder how bed slaves/eunuchs are cut in Astapor? Or in Lys? Does their manhood get tossed into a special alter as well?
I also mentioned up thread that I question if Varys is a eunuch at all, but I will come back to that. I read your post last night and wanted to do a little research on eunuch's before I responded. One idea that I came across is that in the Byzantium empire, the son's of the emperor were sometimes castrated to keep them from having children. In that society a man's duty was to have son's, and you can't have sons if you are castrated, therefore not causing turmoil or threat to your fathers or brother's reign. So, could something like this be the case for Varys. We are told he comes from Essos, but is that really true? Could he have been someone with a special blood line, descended from a king or emperor (not necessarily the 7K, but maybe, but also places in Essos) and someone wanted to make sure his bloodline was ended?
To tie in with your thoughts up thread, perhaps this happened to Varys to keep him from procreating, but by using magic, he came across a way to create children through magic or some type of transformation. I have nothing concrete to go on, or even a concept of how this could work, but perhaps?
My other research on eunich's last night led me to a person by the name of Euphrosyne. To make a long story short, Euphrosyne was the daughter of an influential man. For what ever reason (I found incest, an unwanted marriage, a religious calling) this daughter disguised herself as a eunuch and joined a order of monks and went by the name of Smaragdus and lived as a monk for 38 years. She felt that if she went into a convent someone would find her, but no one would suspect her of not being the man she claimed to be, or even look for her in a monastery. She pulled this off for a long time! No body seemed to suspect.
The story has quite a bit more to it which don't really apply, but it struck me that we have odd things about Varys. I have suspected that he is not a eunuch at all, but I had never questioned the possibility of him not being a man until I stumbled across this last night. It seems too far fetched, but GRRM has given us instances of girls hiding in plan site as boys, and we see this in Arya's arc multiple times. Head shaved, dressed as a boy, and most people do not even question her, although a few do. At that time she is young and untrained, but she is learning to disguise herself better. Perhaps Varys is a women who is very wisely disguising herself as a man. This is so crazy, but maybe ... Varys has a lack of body hair that people associate with being a eunuch, but perhaps that lack of body hair comes from him being a woman. He is noted by many to be effeminate, he has soft hands, speaks with a soft voice. Varys' age is questionable and even when he came to Westeros to serve Aerys is vague. How old is he? Has anyone ever looked under his clothing? We have lot's of people telling us things about Varys, and even Varys himself, but it's like we need to sift out the silt from the sapphires to find the gem. The truth lies in what we have been given, but what parts create the truth?
I did a quick search through Game last night, and I can't find anything else (besides the not frequenting brothel comment) that Ned has that is pro or anti Rhaegar. All of Ned's thoughts are oddly neutral. About a lot of people, except Tywin and the Lannisters. Nothing neutral in Ned's thoughts about Tywin, Cersei or Jaime!
Ned might have loved Rhaegar and mourned when Robert crushed his chest, but he doesn't ever tell us that, so I am going with the idea that he is really ambivalent about Prince Silverstring. The most striking thing Ned thinks/dreams about Rhaegar's "gift" to Lyannan is how when he grabbed the rose crown, he felt the thorns beneath the petals, sharp and clawing, blood trickling down his palm. I know this is a dream, but that is not a very positive image related to Rhaegar's crowning of Lya at Harrenhal. It's dark and a bit disturbing, and I do associate that with Ned's feelings on Rhaegar, but it's possible this only relates to Ned's feelings on all that happened after the crowning at Harrenhal. And, it might not be that Ned is really associating this with Rhaegar at all, only whom ever planned the crowning.
Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark. AGOT-Eddard XV
Also, I don't know if I have ever seen this before but the "sharp and cruel" idea about the thorns "clawing" really has some lion claw imagery to it. Like the Rains of Castamere!
And who are you, the proud lord said,
that I must bow so low?
Only a cat of a different coat,
that's all the truth I know.
In a coat of gold or a coat of red,
a lion still has claws,
And mine are long and sharp, my lord,
as long and sharp as yours.
And so he spoke, and so he spoke,
that lord of Castamere,
But now the rains weep o'er his hall,
with no one there to hear.
Yes now the rains weep o'er his hall,
and not a soul to hear.
"Rains weep" reminds me of blood trickling, which we get in Ned's dream. The idea that thorns being sharp is plainly stated as well as the idea that a lion has claws, and the idea that the thorns are long enough to be felt through the rose petals also hints to this song about Tywin's vengeance. I always thought it was odd to think of a rose having claw's, but if you associate the thorns with Lannister machination, then it sort of fits. I am certain other people have probably made this connection in the past, but it never occurred to me until just now. And I am even more convinced that Tywin was responsible for not only Lyanna's situation, but what happened to Rickard and Brandon, as well. This makes sense to why Ned has little anger directed toward Aerys, who he calls "old mad Aerys", not a feeling of hate or anger but almost pity. If Ned suspected Tywin of the down fall of his family members, no wonder when he found that Jaime had killed Aerys that Ned had only cold suspicion that it was all part of a Lannister plot from the beginning to claim the throne.
And another odd thought, but perhaps it was Tywin who was responsible for the murder of children?
Sorry. I must have misunderstood. I guess part of my reasoning is that Jon is has so much of the Stark look that he must have at least one Stark parent, and if the father is Craster, the mother has to be a Stark. Lyanna, is most likely. Although Lyarra is really a none entity in the story and perhaps she ended up north of the wall. While I think Craster has special blood, I am not sure it's Stark blood. No one comments that he looks like a Stark, Jon see's him and finds no resemblance to the Stark's that we are told, and Craster's physical description is unStarklike.
I think I had finished my first re-read when I first heard of R+L=J. It had not occurred to me and at first I found it rather compelling. I am still open to it as a possibility, but I would say the same for many possibilities.
Well, I watched the first season before I read the first book, and the show gave the impression right in the first episode that something was up with Jon's parentage. Looking back, it's not at all subtle. NOT AT ALL!!! By the time we get to RL carved in a post at Castle Black, it feels like trolling! It's more so in the books, but still, not very subtle. So, I didn't come to the idea of suspicion on my own. After I read Game, I was leaning toward Rhaegar/Lyanna, but in a love/eloped/tragic romance type of way. I avoided the internet until I finished the series which was actually after season three of the show. (Early in my read, I myself spoiled Robb and Grey Wind's death by looking up the names of the direwolves on a google search) and made a vow to avoid the internet and these types of boards until I finished the series. Dance was not published yet, so I had to wait a bit before I was able to read it. It had just been published in Hardcover and I wasn't spending the money for it, so I had to wait a while to get it from the local library. I read it twice in the two weeks I had it, and I read Jon's last chapter at least a dozen times, by head buzzing the whole time.
Then I decided to focus on my idea of RLJ, and found that not only did other people suspect it, it was almost accepted as confirmed on many boards, certainly Westeros and the Reddit boards. It gave me a little feeling of "hey, I figured it out too, and all on my own" even though I admit that the show steered my ideas. It was only with later rereads that I really started to think it wasn't correct. It felt too fairy tale, to perfect, and we know the fairy tale died the moment Ned's head got lopped off by his own sword. I still figured iRLJ was the best option for Jon's parents, but I could not let go of how much Ned and Jon are alike in this story. So much alike! After the odd toj reveal on the show in season 6, I decided it was time to look at the story with a new pair of glasses, and that has lead me to the possibility of alphabet soup and the many better options that RLJ. Still, it could be what GRRM intends, but if so, it's not very well hidden, but maybe the twist is yet to come.
Or maybe there is no twist at all, and I admit I would be disappointed in that. It just feels like he is too crafty of a writer for RLJ, but perhaps Jon's parents were never meant to be such a big mystery. But the lack of Jon knowing who his mother is is one of the first mysteries we are given in the story, pretty much right after the "who killed Jon Arryn" mystery. I hope we just get another book at some point to help figure it out.
Now, I am an hour late to feed my horses, and they will no doubt be crabby with me. I did get plenty of coffee in while posting this morning, and feel pretty invigorated by some new ideas. Thanks danl!