1.23 Daenerys III

It's possible. I can't decide what I think it could mean, but the connection of scarlet to Bloodraven, Viserys, Drogon (and the egg he hatched from), and Dany's bloody footsteps are in the text, just don't have a feel for the intent.

My feeling that scarlet could be a hint of Bloodraven in the text, but that might be too broad a thought. Scarlet is also noted to be a color on the sigil of House Tarly (I think this could tell us something about Sam). In Ned's recollection of Harrenhal while he was in the Black Cell's, focuses on the plume of scarlet silk that trailed behind Rhaegar when he rode (this is the only link to Rhaegar and the color scarlet that I can see in the test), which seems a hint that Bloodraven was involved with Rhaegar being untouchable that day. Melisandre is associated with scarlet, as is Moqorro and the majority of the red priests, although never Thoros (?). The scarlet silk that was used to mend Mance's cloak. Used to describe sigil's of House Blackwood, hence the connection to Bloodraven. These make sense to me.

Some that don't seem to fit any pattern make me think I might be looking at this to hard. Arya note's that Harlan, the Master of Horse, appears to be covered in scarlet flowers he was stabbed so many times. Not sure what this could mean, perhaps nothing. Ser Dontos is associated with scarlet livery of House Hollard. Hallyne the pyromancer wears scarlet and black. It is used to describe the sigil of House Glover, which for some reason strikes me as very odd. Jalabhar Xho and his feathered cloak are often described using the color scarlet as well as other references to the Summer Isles, as well as Oberyn Martell, although his color's do link him to fire, (orange, gold, scarlet) but Bloodraven seems a stretch, although the feathers of the arrows that are used by Alleras (probably Sarella Sand) are scarlet in color, which does seem a connection of a sorts between Oberyn and Sarella/Alleras and possibly Bloodraven. Interestingly, the Golden Company has both scarlet shadows and scarlet rays of sun imagery, which really stands out to me, because scarlet is a color associated with Bloodraven, not Bittersteel.

This is one of the bit's of imagery that has always hinted at RLJ in the text to me. It's Jon's point of view, and it seems to indicate both fire and ice as well as blue and red. Besides this link to scarlet in Jon's POV, his only other scarlet links are to Sam and the color of the Tarly sigil, the color of the mending to Mance's cloak, and all the rest link to Mel. Also, does a blue coldsnap resemble a winter rose? Is it the same thing?

The black pool in the House of Black and White looks scarlet when lit by red candles and the sands of fighting pits in Meereen are referred to as scarlet, perhaps linking to scarlet as a color of blood sacrifice. I really should take some time and go through these with some thought and detail. This is all just a very quick look.

**I also note that Drogon saved Dany from the scarlet sands of the fighting pit in Meereen!

Right now, I am torn between scarlet being a link to Bloodraven and his possible manipulations of this world, and scarlet being a link to sacrifice. It's also possible, that GRRM just likes red, and has to come up with several different adjectives to describe the color of red, and there is really no rhyme or reason behind it!  

ETA: One thing I did note when doing this (allow I might have missed something) but scarlet is never a color that is associated with the weirwood tree's or heart tree's. Bloodraven is associated with scarlet and the weirwoods, but a direct link to weirwood and scarlet doesn't seem to exist, so what could that mean?

I actually never paid attention to the shade of red used for a descriptor of that thread until recently. And when I did this scarlet search, it really struck me as a connection to Bloodraven. I have heard different theories about who Mance's father might be and Bloodraven is certainly a candidate. And this scarlet connection does seem to fit that thought process.


It does evoke the same idea, I agree. Maybe that is all it is meant to do, not be an exact replica, but a hint at the same thing with different words.

The scarlet frostfires evoke a Targaryen sort of imagery, as well, but scarlet doesn't seem to be a color associated directly to the Targaryen's. We see it related to Viserys and in Dany's dreams and egg's, but only once to Rhaegar. But once might be enough. But what is really interesting to me is that frostfire actually is a bit of an oxymoron, and frost is never something I would associate with the Targaryen's. It is almost like frost fire is a combination of ice and fire, and scarlet tied to it does make me think of Bloodraven. 

A flower that always struck me as "very" Targaryen in imagery is "dark red blooms of dragon's breath" that Ned comments on in the godswood of the Red Keep.



Hmm. I am pondering this. What power is associated with scarlet? If it's not the weirwoods, which I am not questioning, then what power is he using. Melisandre is often associated with scarlet. I used to think that Bloodraven was using the weirnet to manipulate people and possibly time in Westeros, but now I am not sure. Perhaps the weirnet is a tool he uses, but not the power source. So what is that power source?


Perhaps I am wrong about the weirnet, but in searches of the text, I don't see the connection. Not even to Bloodraven when he is in the tree root system. The weirwood sap is described using words like "red" or "blood". Even Bloodraven's eye is described with "blood" as the descriptor, "shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight". The eyes of the CotF are also described as blood red, "with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree".

So, Lord Brynden of the tree is associated with red or blood, while Bloodraven's imagery before the tree seems to be all scarlet. Perhaps that indicates that something important has changed in Bloodraven? Maybe I am thinking about it way too hard? GRRM has accused his fan base of that, and he might be right!

Hi shymaid , you were MIA again. Glad to see you back!


I do think there is a change in all people who take the black, from before they say their vows and after they say their vows. IF the majority of Bloodraven's "work" through the tree's comes after he has taken the black and given up scarlet, then perhaps the scarlet in the story is not a clue about him.

And I suppose that some of the scarlet in his story is personal, as he chose to wear it and be associated with it, but some of it is related to the color's of House Blackwood, and he did not chose that, he inherited it from his mother's family.


I just think the scarlet tied to certain houses could be a clue from GRRM about them, perhaps a certain level of magic or power or something of their history. Or perhaps not, but there seems to be a distinct difference in red, scarlet, crimson, as far as color's go. Or even a description of "blood" as a color to describe red.


It could all be about sacrifice. That is something I have considered. But I think of Gared as a blood sacrifice, and scarlet is never used to describe his scenes. Scarlet never is used to describe any of the blood that Ice shed's, and I think of that as all being a type of sacrifice. Gared, Lady, Ned. Scarlet as a descriptor is used only 68 times in the five novels. Not much at all. It is used half as often as crimson, and only about a twentieth as often as red.

I do think the use of scarlet is trying to tell us something, I am just not sure it's related to sacrifice, or to Bloodraven. And if scarlet is supposed to be about sacrifice, how does that relate to Drogon, who is often described using scarlet? Was it all the sacrifice that was needed for him to be born? Or does he need to be the ultimate sacrifice in the story? One that Dany will have to make? Just thinking about all if these options running around in my head at the same time!

I am inclined to think it is related to Bloodraven for the most part!

Thanks!
I hadn't thought on it before either, but when seeing this it really does make sense! Perhaps he could see things needed to hatch the dragons from within the weirnet, sending this to the one that could do it? His studies of the higher mysteries and the seemingly constant work to hatch dragons from one Targaryen or another, it's hard not to think he was part of it and actively tried to find the answer.

I haven't looked much on how the story will unfold from here with fighting the Others. Nor if or how Dany will die. But I hope it won't be super-standard fantasy-tropey-trope. But I might be a bit stuck in my anti-trope lane!

I'm not sure I see Targ imagery here, but frost definitely equals ice, and ice and fire imagery is important. Tie scarlet to it, and something worth noticing is happening here

I keep toying with this. "Magic" is GRRM's world, is not a divine act, nor is it triggered by some arbitrary actions. There are natural law different from our world and there is a system to it (or so I imagine). BR's abilities are rooted somewhere, or maybe in multiple places. Maybe he originally used source A and sought to combine it with the Weirnet. But the Weirnet may have separated him from Source A.

My original thought was that this sort of analysis is serious over-thinking. That is the reason it caught my attention that scarlet is not associated with the Weirnet. If scarlet is just used randomly, surely it would appear occasionally as a descriptor where red is frequently used.

Scarlet is associated with wickedness, dishonor, and sin. When someone takes the black, those things are put behind them. Maybe BR's NW vows separated him from scarlet, and scarlet lead Mance to abandon those vows. Not sure how that fits with Mel, although she does her share of wickedness, it isn't the same sort of violation of rules of honor that we see with BR or Mance.

IF it is associated with what he was, but not what he is, then the nature of his change should provide some clues. Is it the change of joining the NW order, or of joining the Weirnet? Or maybe a bit of both? Either way involves leaving the past behind, giving up everything for a different set of associates.

Not the first time that I have wondered if Ice contains an echo of Elric's Stormbringer.

A couple reasons come to mind why one source of power might push out the other. One is that they are simply incompatible, that ice and fire don't mix (or if they do, it is exploxive). The other is that he is possessed by the Weirnet so oriented toward it's power. When I refer to possession, it is obviously not a cartoonish replacement of his personality with another personality, but that his drives have somehow been redirected.

It takes a crazy focus to see some of the nuances.

Lyanna. Please Ned, I'm tired of ice, let it be fire, and I really like that scarlet robe.

I'm not sure that unnatural has a clear meaning. Ice and fire are both very natural, and the ability to manipulate them is not unnatural. If scarlet is associated with wickedness or dishonor, I lean more toward breaking social laws more than some natural law. I doubt that a natural moral law is part of GRRM's world.

I like this.

A dragon is more natural than wildfire in the sense that a horse is more natural than a car, but that horse has been bred for certain features, and either way, I'm not sure where 'natural' gets us.
I realize that this is a corollary to the theories based on life after death being unnatural and upsetting the balance of something. While I find those arguments attractive, I have the same problem there that I have with many natural law arguments. If a cure is developed for greyscale or smallpox, or if child mortality is dramatically reduced, that upsets a balance of nature, but we shouldn't conclude that it is morally reprehensible. Society adapts, and hopefully we discipline ourselves enough that our population doesn't destroy everything.

At a time when fantasy tended to favor neat conclusions and happy endings, we read Moorcock for a world that was not so clean and easy. While his protagonists tend to be 'good guys', things are not always morally clear and doing the right thing does not always lead to victory, and victory rarely leads to happiness
I think I read Moorcock about 35 or 40 years ago, so I hope I get things right. If I remember correctly, there are some interesting parallels to Ice and Ned.
Stormbringer was a black sword. It aided Elric by giving him health and power, but it required blood sacrifice.
Elric was part of an evil people, but he had discovered a different moral code and he tried to do good. As he tried to do the right thing, he made decisions that created dangers and ultimately destroyed the people he loved.
We first learn of Stormbringer's demand for blood sacrifice when it (while in Elric's hand) stabs Cymoril, Elric's lover and cousin.
I guess the only clear parallels are the black sword and it's owner's penchant for getting his family in trouble by doing the good/honorable thing. If Ice is taking blood sacrifice, that is a parallel. If Ned killed Lyanna with Ice, more so