Fire melts Ice and all you are left with is a Mud Puddle. No fire and no ice, just a damn mess!
Or the ice explodes into steam. Either way, it isn't pretty and in the end, you are without ice or fire or both. Maybe it is about the consequences of choices. It isn't just Ice and Fire, there is more of Robert Frost in there as well. BR may have tried to be all things or move in all directions, but life doesn't work that way.
Oh, wow! I would say there seem to be some similarities. Thanks for the info! I might need to put this on my reading list, but it seems like a lot of reading.
I remember enjoying aspects of the plot but being disappointed by pretty thin characterization.
On a more serious note, I get what you are saying about how life adapts to the changes that we have made to our environment. Just like germ's. Every bug under the face of the sun used to be susceptible to penicillin, but now many germs are resistant to it, or people have developed allergies. We try to stop the world from killing us and the world fight's back and says I will kill you in a different way. It's a constant push and pull.
I may be leaning into an aspect of voice 's miasma theory.
Or the ice explodes into steam. Either way, it isn't pretty and in the end, you are without ice or fire or both. Maybe it is about the consequences of choices. It isn't just Ice and Fire, there is more of Robert Frost in there as well. BR may have tried to be all things or move in all directions, but life doesn't work that way.
Yes, almost polar opposites, that only can coexist by their separation from each other. As to the concept of Robert Frost's poem, it reminds me that we are probably not going to get a neat ending with a blend of the two elements. The poem seems to be about death, either by one extreme or the other. Now, is that the death of Planetos or the death of life and order on Planetos? Was the Long Night a type of death for Planetos is the past? Does that mean it's fire's turn to tip the scales? Or did that already happen in Valyria?
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Yes, almost polar opposites, that only can coexist by their separation from each other. As to the concept of Robert Frost's poem, it reminds me that we are probably not going to get a neat ending with a blend of the two elements. The poem seems to be about death, either by one extreme or the other.
There may be an uneasy coexistence that is possible. The world is a big place. While fire and ice cannot co-exist and one person cannot hold both very well, both do exist in the same world and we have that mess only when they come into contact. For that matter, either is likely to destroy a person who is not careful. Or maybe something unnatural can bring them together. That is what steam power is, a combining a fire and ice to produce a controlled explosion of energy. I'm not sure that is a concept that moves any speculation about ASOIAF forward, but when I am musing about bringing ice and fire together, it is where my mind often goes.
Yes, almost polar opposites, that only can coexist by their separation from each other. As to the concept of Robert Frost's poem, it reminds me that we are probably not going to get a neat ending with a blend of the two elements. The poem seems to be about death, either by one extreme or the other.
There may be an uneasy coexistence that is possible. The world is a big place. While fire and ice cannot co-exist and one person cannot hold both very well, both do exist in the same world and we have that mess only when they come into contact. For that matter, either is likely to destroy a person who is not careful. Or maybe something unnatural can bring them together. That is what steam power is, a combining a fire and ice to produce a controlled explosion of energy. I'm not sure that is a concept that moves any speculation about ASOIAF forward, but when I am musing about bringing ice and fire together, it is where my mind often goes.
Maybe that is what finally moves this world out of the medieval/dark age era that it has been in for thousands of years and moves it forward into a steam age/industrial age type of world?
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
At a time when fantasy tended to favor neat conclusions and happy endings, we read Moorcock for a world that was not so clean and easy. While his protagonists tend to be 'good guys', things are not always morally clear and doing the right thing does not always lead to victory, and victory rarely leads to happiness I think I read Moorcock about 35 or 40 years ago, so I hope I get things right. If I remember correctly, there are some interesting parallels to Ice and Ned. Stormbringer was a black sword. It aided Elric by giving him health and power, but it required blood sacrifice. Elric was part of an evil people, but he had discovered a different moral code and he tried to do good. As he tried to do the right thing, he made decisions that created dangers and ultimately destroyed the people he loved. We first learn of Stormbringer's demand for blood sacrifice when it (while in Elric's hand) stabs Cymoril, Elric's lover and cousin. I guess the only clear parallels are the black sword and it's owner's penchant for getting his family in trouble by doing the good/honorable thing. If Ice is taking blood sacrifice, that is a parallel. If Ned killed Lyanna with Ice, more so
So, the idea of Stormbringer that you mentioned the other day has been on my mind. And feeding my imagination in relation to the sword Dawn, as well as the sword Ice.
Forgive me, but I am just going to put my whole statement that was inspired by Stormbringer, Dawn, Ice, Arthur Dayne and the Smiling Knight here, as opposed to try to type it all up again.
I was just out playing fetch with my dog and had the oddest thoughts about Arthur Dayne, Dawn and the Smiling Knight.
So, Dawn is said to be like Valyrian steel is strength and weight and sharpness, but it is unlike Valyrian steel in color, being as pale as milk glass. I know that Wraith thinks this could be because it is Valyrian steel, but made with a willing blood sacrifice (like Nissa Nissa bearing her breast to Lightbringer) as opposed to Valyrian steel which might be forged with unwilling blood sacrifice (all those slaves working the mines in Valyria), which caused the color difference. The color is the only thing that seems to make it stand apart from the dark grey Valyian steel like Ice or Heartsbane or Longclaw.
One thing said about Valyrian steel is that is seems like it drinks or absorbs the blood of it's victims. That Valyrian steel thirsts for more blood. And perhaps it does. Perhaps blood makes the steel stronger?
What if Dawn is Valyrian steel (even though it's white instead of dark) and it drinks blood too? What if it (and therefore the person wielding it) get stronger the more blood it has consumed.
This brings me to think about what we know about the Smiling Knight and Jaime's report of the duel between Arthur Dayne and the Smiling Knight.
We know that Ser Barristan Selmy faced the Smiling Knight and won, as this information is in the White Book.
Rescued Lady Jeyne Swann and her septa from the Kingswood Brotherhood, defeating Simon Toyne and the Smiling Knight, and slaying the former. ASOS-Jaime VIII
Barristan is quite a good swordsman, so did he not kill the Smiling Knight out of some sort of chivalry, or did he not kill the man because he was a very good swordsman also and Barristan was unable to kill him?
Then this account about SAD and TSK.
Summed up like that, his life seemed a rather scant and mingy thing. Ser Barristan could have recorded a few of his other tourney victories, at least. And Ser Gerold might have written a few more words about the deeds he'd performed when Ser Arthur Dayne broke the Kingswood Brotherhood. He had saved Lord Sumner's life as Big Belly Ben was about to smash his head in, though the outlaw had escaped him. And he'd held his own against the Smiling Knight, though it was Ser Arthur who slew him. What a fight that was, and what a foe. The Smiling Knight was a madman, cruelty and chivalry all jumbled up together, but he did not know the meaning of fear. And Dayne, with Dawn in hand . . . The outlaw's longsword had so many notches by the end that Ser Arthur had stopped to let him fetch a new one. "It's that white sword of yours I want," the robber knight told him as they resumed, though he was bleeding from a dozen wounds by then. "Then you shall have it, ser," the Sword of the Morning replied, and made an end of it. ASOS-Jaime VIII
Perhaps I was incorrect when I speculated that Arthur Dayne was toying with the Smiling Knight before he killed him. Perhaps the duel was so equal that Ser Arthur barely was the victor. And if that is the case, then the fact that he was wielding Dawn might have tipped the balance in his favor. But something else occurred to me while thinking about Valyrian steel drinking or soaking up blood. If Dawn is like Valyrian steel, then maybe it drinks blood too, and the sword and the wielder gain strength with that blood. Soo ...
Perhaps the reason that Ser Arthur Dayne was able to finally overcome the Smiling Knight was because Dawn had gained strength from the blood it had drank from the Smiling Knight. After all, Jaime reports the man was bleeding from a dozen wounds. With the blood that Dawn had gained, Ser Arthur Dayne was finally able to make an end to the Smiling Knight. Maybe?
This seems to crazy, super crazy, but recently danl and I were discussing Stormbringer, which is the sword of Elric of Melnibone in a series of novels by Michael Moorcock. I had never heard of the novels or the sword, but it is a black sword that thirsts for blood and souls and it can make the person wielding it perform terrible acts to feed the sword the blood and souls that it craves. This has me thinking about thirsty swords that gain strength from blood, and now, it seems, I am applying it to Dawn, as well as most Valyrian steel. The sword Stormbringer (it has both Dany and Storm Lord imagery in the name, I think) has a brother blade called Mournblade. It is supposed to be very like Stormbringer in appearance. Now, Mourn Blade is similar to Morning Blade which could be Dawn. We were discussing the idea of Ice containing the idea of Stormbringer, a black blade that thirsts for blood, and then with a little more reading on Stormbringer, I came across the concept of a brother blade, which rather makes me think of Ice (the original version) and Dawn. What if both swords crave blood, gain strength from blood, make the wielder perform acts they would not otherwise perform just to feed the swords blood? Perhaps become the Night's King kind of acts!
Stormbringer is a magic sword featured in a number of fantasy stories by the author Michael Moorcock. Created by the forces of Chaos, it is described as a huge, black sword covered with strange runes carved deep into its blade. It is wielded by the doomed albino emperor Elric of Melniboné. Stormbringer makes its first appearance in the 1961 novella The Dreaming City.
This powerful enchanted black blade is a member of a demon race that takes on the form of a sword, and as such is an agent of Chaos. Stormbringer's edge is capable of cutting through virtually any material not protected by potent sorcery, and it can drink the soul from (and thereby kill) an unprotected human upon delivering any wound, even a scratch. Its most distinctive features are that it has a mind and will of its own, and that it feeds upon the souls of those it kills. Elric loathes the sword but is almost helpless without the strength and vitality it confers on him.
Stormbringer's hunger for souls is such that it frequently betrays Elric by creating a bloodlust in his mind, turning in his hands and killing friends and lovers. The cursed nature of the sword adds to Elric's guilt and self-loathing, even as he feels pleasure when the stolen lifeforce enters his body. Stormbringer has a "brother" sword named Mournblade, which was at one time wielded by Elric's cousin and enemy Yyrkoon. It is identical to Stormbringer in most regards.
One of the novels is even called The Weird of the White Wolf, which brings to mind weir as in weirwoods and our very own white wolf Ghost, although I have no idea what the book is about.
I certainly think that GRRM could be influenced by this writing of Moorcock, although I cannot say for certain. And the majority of the novels in this series were published before Game was written, so GRRM could have been aware of them. The idea of a blade that needs blood, and that can influence it's wielder to get it the blood it needs is very interesting. What if the Sword of the Morning office, while revered and admired, also has a secret darkness to it, that is strengthened by foul deeds. What did happen in that tower in Dorne? Perhaps the sword appeared "alive with light" at that time because it had just drank a lot of blood. Perhaps that is why Ser Arthur has a sad smile on his face.
The Sword of the Morning office, a blessing and a curse, all at the same time, perhaps.
And since I am off on a wild tangent ...
The world was simpler in those days, Jaime thought, and men as well as swords were made of finer steel. Or was it only that he had been fifteen? They were all in their graves now, the Sword of the Morning and the Smiling Knight, the White Bull and Prince Lewyn, Ser Oswell Whent with his black humor, earnest Jon Darry, Simon Toyne and his Kingswood Brotherhood, bluff old Sumner Crakehall. And me, that boy I was . . . when did he die, I wonder? When I donned the white cloak? When I opened Aerys's throat? That boy had wanted to be Ser Arthur Dayne, but someplace along the way he had become the Smiling Knight instead. ASOS-Jaime VIII
This passage has always struck me very poignantly because Jaime recognized he wanted to be a hero, but turned out a villain instead. But we know that Jaime is on a redemption arc, going from bad to good, or at least better. I have a hard time letting go of the idea of a confusion in the deeds and needs of the Smiling Knight. What if the Smiling Knight is like Jaime Lanniser, a man who once performed horrible deeds, went through a change (what ever happened to the Smiling Knight's face might have changed him) and he became a better man, only history hasn't remembered him that way. Yet! Does Jaime's arc parallel the Smiling Knight's arc?
The Smiling Knight was a madman, cruelty and chivalry all jumbled up together, but he did not know the meaning of fear. ASOS-Jaime VIII
Jaime Lannister was a madman, cruelty and chivalry all jumbled up together, but he did not know the meaning of fear.
I am not sure if Jaime is mad but he has a few moments where he questions if he is indeed going mad, but he is both cruel and chivalrous, and he has told us many times he doesn't feel fear.
I need to play fetch with my dog more often! But super sorry about the huge derailment!
So, danl , you helped me open a can of worms with the swords in this story, but it was the idea of Stormbringer having a brother blade named Mournblade, which seems so much like Dawn, that really connected for me. I am wondering just how much GRRM might have been influenced by Moorcock when he started this series. I think GRRM is heavily influenced by many myths and fictions and kind of can put everything in a bag and pull it all back out in a different order, so the influences are there, but the story is different.
Anyway, thanks for the information on Stormbringer that sent me down a completely different path of thought about the possible origins of some of the swords in the story, most especially Dawn and original Ice. What is really interesting to me, is that we don't have a certain origin of any one sword in this story, except for Needle. Even what we know of Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail is influenced by Ice, but Needle, our sword that Jon gave to Arya and that was made from castle forged steel in Mikken's Winterfell forge might turn out to be the most important sword in the story because we know it's origin, we seen it, we have lived it with the characters. Odd isn't it, that all of this talk of swords has brought me to think of the littlest sword of all in this story. A sword with great potential!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.