Post by stdaga on Sept 15, 2018 19:22:55 GMT
This is probably my second favorite chapter in A Game of Thrones (my book is actually starting to fall apart at this chapter, because I have read it so many times), with Bran I being my favorite. I love the imagery of Ned's fever dream, even if it's hard to say what is based in reality and what is not. The wording, the descriptions, the cadence of the dream are almost hypnotic, and quite beautiful! Cheers to GRRM for this! 
However, this is the parentage reread, and so I have tried to look at this chapter from the clues we might have about parentage, and not all the other enticing things there are to question and discuss in this chapter.
Of course, Lyanna does play a role in our parentage mystery (we think) so it's hard to ignore that she get several mentions in this chapter and question how that might pertain to our XYZ Soup!
As has been discussed by the fandom multiple times that "bed of blood" is used as a euphemism for the birthing bed, child bearing bed, delivery bed, however we would like to describe it. However, it's also been argued that a person could be gravely wounded and lying in a bed, and that could fit the concept of "bed of blood" as well. GRRM is nothing if not vague, while being insinuating. Now wonder people can hardly agree on things when he writes so cleverly!
I don't know if this indicates Lyanna ever spent time in a birthing bed, and if she did, I have no idea if this bed was in or near or 1000 leagues away from the tower of joy, what ever the heck that turns out to be or mean! I just don't think we can address parentage mystery's without at least nodding to this phrase in relation to Lyanna.
At the end of the dream, Lyanna makes an appearance as well. Screaming! "As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming." I am still not sold that this is a true indication of Lyanna being at the toj or even why she might have been screaming, either in the dream or in reality. But Lyanna does tend to serve as book mark to this fever dream that involves white cloaks, grey wraiths and towers long fallen.
Ned mentions is six northern companions: Martyn Cassel, Theo Wull, Ethan Glover, Mark Ryswell, Howland Reed, and Lord Dustin. Another thing GRRM does in this passage is slyly insert Brandon Stark into this passage as well, since Ethan Glover was Brandon's squire. So, we do have Lyanna and Brandon mentioned, and they are certainly a possible combination in the soup bowl.
Our next paragraph addresses the "knights in white cloaks" that call to us from the very first line of this chapter and the fever dream. Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent, Gerald Hightower. There is rather lovely imagery around all of them, but I would like to focus on our Sword of the Morning.
Ser Arthur Dayne. The Sword of the Morning (I note that his title is capitalized and might indicate it's much more important than the reference to the tower of joy, which doesn't garner capital letters, and might indicate it's not even a real place or building.) Had a sad smile on his lips. The hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder.
Okay! This is good stuff. SAD the SotM, it's both his name and title for wielding the sword Dawn. But what always catches my attention is the "sad smile on his lips". Why is he sad? Is he melancholy and always appears this way, or is this something more. A clue! Later in the dream, Ned will speak to SAD with "sadness in his voice", when Arthur says " and now it begins" and Ned says, "no, now it ends". A sad smile from SAD, sad words from The Ned! Is there something that connects the imagery of these two men in relation to sadness or sad smiles?
A few interesting quotes from the text:
We don't often get to see Jon from another POV. Arya's POV at the start of the series, Samwell's POV a couple times, and Melisandre's POV once. I am always interested in how other people view Jon Snow.
And here we have Sam noting "a sad smile" from Jon. And then we get it again from Sam's POV.
This passage is interesting to me because we get this exchange in Feast from Sam's POV and in Dance from Jon's POV. I really enjoy these two chapters and comparing and contrasting the area's that intersect.
From Jon's POV, we don't even get a hint that Jon is smiling. As a matter of fact, when reading this from Jon's POV, I get all teary, because it reminds me of the snow melting in Robb's hair the day that Jon and Robb parted at Winterfell, reminds me of Robb's fate, and that those two brothers and friends will never again see each other in this lifetime. And that brings a sad smile to my face!
But, back to Jon. And Arthur. I wonder if that day that Ned and Arthur crossed paths and perhaps clashed words and swords, did Ser Arthur Dayne know he had a sad smile on his lips? Jon doesn't here, but Sam clearly thinks so. Perhaps Arthur was sad to see Ned, sad to know this might be the last time there ever seen each other again in this life. I am not getting into the debate about whether Arthur lived or died that day, in either case, this could be the last time Ned and Arthur ever seen each other.
And I do see this sad smile as a connection between Jon Snow and Arthur Dayne. If SAD turns out to be Jon's bio-dad, this will be one of the passages that people point at and nod, and realize was a hint all along. There are other things in the text that I dispute between Jon and Arthur, but this seems such a sweet and sad connection between two men who might be father and son.
Now, there are other sad smiles noted in the text. Cat smiles sadly a couple times, Jon notes that Ygritte dies with a sad smile on her face, Samwell smiles sadly, and so does the Kindly Man at the House of Black and White (I do find this interesting, but am trying not to be derailed) It's not just Jon and Arthur. If it was, that would be like a blinking red arrow pointing at them as a father/son duo. But I think it's a really nice hint that they could be. And goodness knows that Jon Snow has some dawn imagery hanging over him in the story.
This sadness also points slightly to Ned, although to be honest, I don't think it's nearly as clear as the connection between SAD and Jon. But it deserves a mention, I think.
Jon looks and acts so much like Eddard, but one thing Eddard is never having noted in the text to have is a "sad smile". He has plenty of reason to smile sadly, but it never comes up in the text, as far as I have found. But as I pointed out, Ned does speak with "sadness in his voice" here, and Arya notes that Ned's voice is sad when speaking of Brandon, Lyanna and their wolf blood. Robb speaks with sadness in his voice and so does Qhorin Halfhand. And so does Jon Snow!
We don't get much of Jon from other POV's, but I bet he sounds sad more often that we think.
This is from Jon's POV, and he doesn't say he is speaking sadly, but he is speaking and he feels sadness, so I am using it.
I am not sure if this is parentage or not, but there is a sadness tie to Jon and Ned.
It's so hard to know what to pick out of this dream and focus on and leave behind, since we have no idea how much is based in reality, or a reality that might be bleed in from a dozen different incidents or locations or dreams.
**
So, let's move on to the none dream like parts of this chapter! Ned is still weak here, in pain, having been unconscious for days, been given milk of the poppy and is dealing with an emotionally charged situation with his own grief over his dead men and Robert and Cersei's behavior and machinations.
I am going to try to stick to parentage or genetics or things that I see as possible connections.
**
Not directly parentage, but since Lyanna plays a role in Ned's fever dream, I think it's fair to look at what we are told of Sansa and Arya in this chapter, since it seems that we are to learn something about Lyanna from one of them, or both of them, either alternatively or at the same time.
"Sansa prays quietly". Did Lyanna use prayer in her life? If so, did she follow the old gods (which is my instinct) or will we find she prayed to the Seven? Perhaps she prayed to them both. As much as Sansa claims the Faith of the Seven, as Cat does, she spends much time in the godswood of the Red Keep.
"But Arya ... she has not said a word since they brought you back. She is a fierce little thing, my lord. I have never seen such anger in a girl." So, in contrast to her elder sister, we have a silent but fiercely angry Arya. Is this the Lyanna that we are looking for in our story. Fierce, silent, angry?
Can Lyanna mirror both of these daughters of Ned's? Interesting that Arya is silent and Sansa quiet. That is a connection, although it's not exact. Perhaps Sansa's words, which being spoken quietly, carried some anger and fierceness, as well? Is Lyanna partly represented in both of these girls behavior, perhaps even at the same time?
It reminds me of this passage:
I am not saying this woman is Lyanna (although I have origamied up some lovely tinfoil in the past that indicates this scenario is possible), but could this be at least an indication of a Stark woman who can both pray quietly to the gods, while being quiet and angry and fierce? A representation of a Stark-type of woman, something that could explain both Sansa and Arya's methods?
Anyway, Ned doesn't seem surprised by either of their very different behaviors, he just wants them safe. As he perhaps wanted Lyanna safe! Did Ned have any power over whether Lyanna was safe or not? He does over his daughters, and no matter how he planned, they still were not safe in the end. Alive, but not safe. Their journey continues long after his has ended.
**
We establish a few things here. Robert, who is probably 36-37 year old, has a child with a whore who might have only been 14 when the conception occurred. So, Robert likes young girls! Lyanna was young, either at Harrenhal until the time of her death. 14-16 years old, she might not have been safe from his attentions. We also establish that little Barra seems to look a lot like Mya did as an infant. Ned knows, he held the child and visited her with Robert when she was young, long after Robert lost interest in Mya's mother, he still showed some interest in his child. But Robert seems to show no interest in Barra. Does he not care? Or does he fear what Cersei might do to the child? We will later find out that if he did fear Cersei, then he had every reason to. She is a snake who perhaps had his children killed before (if the information about the twins at Casterly Rock is correct) and she will have Barra killed in cold blood. An infant child! That Ned, in a flash of anger, handed to Cersei on a silver platter. We also establish that Ned thinks the whore/child is a fool who is in love with Robert. Is Ned reminded of another fool child who might have born Robert a bastard, a fool child who thought she was in love? Could Lyanna have loved Robert?
If Jon is Robert's bastard, wouldn't Ned possibly think of Jon? I suppose it would be too obvious to name Jon, but Ned could have thought of another bastard infant of Robert's who might have shared the same hair as Mya and Barra. But we get nothing that hints that Ned has ever come across another infant bastard of Roberts, whether the child was a boy or girl. I am not completely discounting Robert as being Jon's father, but this passage makes me think it's unlikely. Other passages hint strongly to me that Robert could be Jon's father, but not this passage in this chapter.
GRRM has certainly made the mystery a challenge to solve!
**
Earlier in the story, Robert talks about how many times Rhaegar might have raped Lyanna. Here, his words do hint perhaps at a different relationship besides rape. Both Rhaegar and Lyanna are in an afterlife, a Hades type of place, an underworld, not necessarily a heaven or hell, but a place for dead souls. And Robert thinks that Rhaegar "has" Lyanna in this afterlife. This does hint at a relationship beyond rape. I don't favor RLJ, and I am also not very fond of any R+L scenario, but there are some hints of it in the text. They are not as concrete as many would like to say, but they do exist. And this is one of them. If Robert truly feels like Rhaegar took Lyanna against her will and raped her, why would he ever think they might be spending their time in the underworld together?
Of course, I don't think that Robert (and perhaps us the readers) or even Ned, really understand yet that the Stark underworld might be very different than most people's underworld, at least if you are buried in the crypts, which we are told Lyanna is. And there is no hint that Rhaegar lies in the crypts, but I suppose if he did, then that might be a reason for the Kings of Winter to frown on Eddard. If he allowed a Targaryen to lie in the hall of ancient Starks. But why would Ned allow such a thing? It defies logic, I think.
Sudden tinfoil popping into my head as I type. What if Rhaegar's only goal was to manipulate a situation so that his remains did end up in the crypts at Winterfell? What if there is some magic and rebirth that relates to the crypts, and Rhaegar wanted some part of that. Could he have manipulated the situation so that he could lie in the crypts? But he has no statue as far as we know, and that seems to be important, so perhaps this is just dazed-from-too-much-typing tinfoil and needs to get tossed into the garbage!
**
I just want to flash back very quickly to Arthur's sad smile and Jon's sad smile, as noted by Ned and Sam.
I have wondered if this concept of Jon's sad smile and Arthur's sad smile could hint at something else. When Sam watches Jon's sad smile, it is while Gilly is feeding the child of Mance Rayder, when she is acting as a wet nurse to a child who's mother has died, or is at least not around. Since we do see hints of Jon/Grenn/Pyp imagery fighting to protect Sam in Jon IV, that could mirror Arthur/Gerald Hightower/Oswell Whent imagery protecting something in or at the toj, then could this hint at Arthur's sad smile as he watched a woman serve as wet nurse to a child who's mother has died or is missing? A child that is not his own, just as Mance's son is not Jon's son. And how does Sam and Ned work in this concept, as they are not the child's bio-father either, but both might end up claiming that child as their own bastard to raise? Is this case, who is the father that we are missing in the Ned/Arthur scenario? Although sometimes I am not even convinced that Mance is the bio-father of Dalla's child. This would be a mirror or echo like situation.
I suppose if an inverse is in play, then Arthur could be watching his own child feed at the breast of the woman is the child's mother, while Jon is watching another man's child feed at the breast of a woman who is not the child's mother!!!
**
I don't think it ever struck me before, but House Baratheon and House Greyjoy share the same colors. This description of Robert dressed in black with a gold stag decorating his doublet stuck out to me this time around. Theon often dresses in black with a golden kraken decorating his clothing. Is there some significance to this? I have certainly never give it much of a though before, but we have this age old war between the Drowned God and the Storm God. The Baratheon's claim the Storm God as a relative through Elenai, the daughter of the Storm God who married Durran Godsgrief. Durran and the Storm God seemed to have a battle of mythic proportions. Is there some ancient tie to the Greyjoy/Iron Islanders and the Durrandon/Baratheon's?
Interestingly enough, their sigils carry the same colors, but in reverse. The Baratheon's have a black stag on a golden field, while the the Greyjoy's show a golden kraken on a black field. Sometimes in this story we have seen a reversal of a houses colors if a bastard of a house claims his father's colors, but with the colors in reverse. Could one of these houses be of bastard descent from the other house, even if it's multiple millennia ago?
ETA: I never meant for this to be soooo long! Geesh!
However, this is the parentage reread, and so I have tried to look at this chapter from the clues we might have about parentage, and not all the other enticing things there are to question and discuss in this chapter.
Of course, Lyanna does play a role in our parentage mystery (we think) so it's hard to ignore that she get several mentions in this chapter and question how that might pertain to our XYZ Soup!
He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood. AGOT-Eddard X
I don't know if this indicates Lyanna ever spent time in a birthing bed, and if she did, I have no idea if this bed was in or near or 1000 leagues away from the tower of joy, what ever the heck that turns out to be or mean! I just don't think we can address parentage mystery's without at least nodding to this phrase in relation to Lyanna.
At the end of the dream, Lyanna makes an appearance as well. Screaming! "As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming." I am still not sold that this is a true indication of Lyanna being at the toj or even why she might have been screaming, either in the dream or in reality. But Lyanna does tend to serve as book mark to this fever dream that involves white cloaks, grey wraiths and towers long fallen.
Ned mentions is six northern companions: Martyn Cassel, Theo Wull, Ethan Glover, Mark Ryswell, Howland Reed, and Lord Dustin. Another thing GRRM does in this passage is slyly insert Brandon Stark into this passage as well, since Ethan Glover was Brandon's squire. So, we do have Lyanna and Brandon mentioned, and they are certainly a possible combination in the soup bowl.
Our next paragraph addresses the "knights in white cloaks" that call to us from the very first line of this chapter and the fever dream. Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent, Gerald Hightower. There is rather lovely imagery around all of them, but I would like to focus on our Sword of the Morning.
They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind. And these were no shadows; their faces burned clear, even now. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips. The hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder. Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone. Across his white-enameled helm, the black bat of his House spread its wings. Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower, the White Bull, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. AGOT-Eddard X
Ser Arthur Dayne. The Sword of the Morning (I note that his title is capitalized and might indicate it's much more important than the reference to the tower of joy, which doesn't garner capital letters, and might indicate it's not even a real place or building.) Had a sad smile on his lips. The hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder.
Okay! This is good stuff. SAD the SotM, it's both his name and title for wielding the sword Dawn. But what always catches my attention is the "sad smile on his lips". Why is he sad? Is he melancholy and always appears this way, or is this something more. A clue! Later in the dream, Ned will speak to SAD with "sadness in his voice", when Arthur says " and now it begins" and Ned says, "no, now it ends". A sad smile from SAD, sad words from The Ned! Is there something that connects the imagery of these two men in relation to sadness or sad smiles?
A few interesting quotes from the text:
The boy did not have a name yet, no more than Gilly's did. That was the wildling way. Not even Mance Rayder's son would get a name till his third year, it would seem, though Sam had heard the brothers calling him "the little prince" and "born-in-battle."
He watched the child nurse at Gilly's breast, and then he watched Jon watch. Jon is smiling. A sad smile, still, but definitely a smile of sorts. Sam was glad to see it. It is the first time I've seen him smile since I got back. ASOS-Samwell IV
He watched the child nurse at Gilly's breast, and then he watched Jon watch. Jon is smiling. A sad smile, still, but definitely a smile of sorts. Sam was glad to see it. It is the first time I've seen him smile since I got back. ASOS-Samwell IV
We don't often get to see Jon from another POV. Arya's POV at the start of the series, Samwell's POV a couple times, and Melisandre's POV once. I am always interested in how other people view Jon Snow.
And here we have Sam noting "a sad smile" from Jon. And then we get it again from Sam's POV.
"She has more courage than she knows."
"So do you, Sam. Have a swift, safe voyage, and take care of her and Aemon and the child." Jon smiled a strange, sad smile. "And pull your hood up. The snowflakes are melting in your hair." AFFC-Samwell I
"So do you, Sam. Have a swift, safe voyage, and take care of her and Aemon and the child." Jon smiled a strange, sad smile. "And pull your hood up. The snowflakes are melting in your hair." AFFC-Samwell I
This passage is interesting to me because we get this exchange in Feast from Sam's POV and in Dance from Jon's POV. I really enjoy these two chapters and comparing and contrasting the area's that intersect.
"She has more courage than she knows," said Sam.
"So do you, Sam. Have a swift, safe voyage, and take care of her and Aemon and the child." The cold trickles on his face reminded Jon of the day he'd bid farewell to Robb at Winterfell, never knowing that it was for the last time. "And pull your hood up. The snowflakes are melting in your hair." ADWD-Jon II
"So do you, Sam. Have a swift, safe voyage, and take care of her and Aemon and the child." The cold trickles on his face reminded Jon of the day he'd bid farewell to Robb at Winterfell, never knowing that it was for the last time. "And pull your hood up. The snowflakes are melting in your hair." ADWD-Jon II
But, back to Jon. And Arthur. I wonder if that day that Ned and Arthur crossed paths and perhaps clashed words and swords, did Ser Arthur Dayne know he had a sad smile on his lips? Jon doesn't here, but Sam clearly thinks so. Perhaps Arthur was sad to see Ned, sad to know this might be the last time there ever seen each other again in this life. I am not getting into the debate about whether Arthur lived or died that day, in either case, this could be the last time Ned and Arthur ever seen each other.
And I do see this sad smile as a connection between Jon Snow and Arthur Dayne. If SAD turns out to be Jon's bio-dad, this will be one of the passages that people point at and nod, and realize was a hint all along. There are other things in the text that I dispute between Jon and Arthur, but this seems such a sweet and sad connection between two men who might be father and son.
Now, there are other sad smiles noted in the text. Cat smiles sadly a couple times, Jon notes that Ygritte dies with a sad smile on her face, Samwell smiles sadly, and so does the Kindly Man at the House of Black and White (I do find this interesting, but am trying not to be derailed) It's not just Jon and Arthur. If it was, that would be like a blinking red arrow pointing at them as a father/son duo. But I think it's a really nice hint that they could be. And goodness knows that Jon Snow has some dawn imagery hanging over him in the story.
This sadness also points slightly to Ned, although to be honest, I don't think it's nearly as clear as the connection between SAD and Jon. But it deserves a mention, I think.
Jon looks and acts so much like Eddard, but one thing Eddard is never having noted in the text to have is a "sad smile". He has plenty of reason to smile sadly, but it never comes up in the text, as far as I have found. But as I pointed out, Ned does speak with "sadness in his voice" here, and Arya notes that Ned's voice is sad when speaking of Brandon, Lyanna and their wolf blood. Robb speaks with sadness in his voice and so does Qhorin Halfhand. And so does Jon Snow!
"I know." Jon sounded strangely sad. AGOT-Tyrion III
"There is no more time." Jon sounded sad. "You need to get your things together, Sam. You're going with Gilly." AFFC-Samwell I
We don't get much of Jon from other POV's, but I bet he sounds sad more often that we think.
"Are they all dead?" Maester Aemon asked softly.
"Yes. Donal was the last." Noye's sword was sunk deep in the giant's throat, halfway to the hilt. The armorer had always seemed such a big man to Jon, but locked in the giant's massive arms he looked almost like a child. "The giant crushed his spine. I don't know who died first." He took the lantern and moved forward for a better look. "Mag." I am the last of the giants. He could feel the sadness there, but he had no time for sadness. "It was Mag the Mighty. The king of the giants." ASOS-Jon VIII
"Yes. Donal was the last." Noye's sword was sunk deep in the giant's throat, halfway to the hilt. The armorer had always seemed such a big man to Jon, but locked in the giant's massive arms he looked almost like a child. "The giant crushed his spine. I don't know who died first." He took the lantern and moved forward for a better look. "Mag." I am the last of the giants. He could feel the sadness there, but he had no time for sadness. "It was Mag the Mighty. The king of the giants." ASOS-Jon VIII
I am not sure if this is parentage or not, but there is a sadness tie to Jon and Ned.
It's so hard to know what to pick out of this dream and focus on and leave behind, since we have no idea how much is based in reality, or a reality that might be bleed in from a dozen different incidents or locations or dreams.
**
So, let's move on to the none dream like parts of this chapter! Ned is still weak here, in pain, having been unconscious for days, been given milk of the poppy and is dealing with an emotionally charged situation with his own grief over his dead men and Robert and Cersei's behavior and machinations.
I am going to try to stick to parentage or genetics or things that I see as possible connections.
**
"It does," Ned assured him. "My daughters?"
"They have been with you every day, my lord. Sansa prays quietly, but Arya …" He hesitated. "She has not said a word since they brought you back. She is a fierce little thing, my lord. I have never seen such anger in a girl."
"Whatever happens," Ned said, "I want my daughters kept safe. I fear this is only the beginning." AGOT-Eddard X
"They have been with you every day, my lord. Sansa prays quietly, but Arya …" He hesitated. "She has not said a word since they brought you back. She is a fierce little thing, my lord. I have never seen such anger in a girl."
"Whatever happens," Ned said, "I want my daughters kept safe. I fear this is only the beginning." AGOT-Eddard X
Not directly parentage, but since Lyanna plays a role in Ned's fever dream, I think it's fair to look at what we are told of Sansa and Arya in this chapter, since it seems that we are to learn something about Lyanna from one of them, or both of them, either alternatively or at the same time.
"Sansa prays quietly". Did Lyanna use prayer in her life? If so, did she follow the old gods (which is my instinct) or will we find she prayed to the Seven? Perhaps she prayed to them both. As much as Sansa claims the Faith of the Seven, as Cat does, she spends much time in the godswood of the Red Keep.
"But Arya ... she has not said a word since they brought you back. She is a fierce little thing, my lord. I have never seen such anger in a girl." So, in contrast to her elder sister, we have a silent but fiercely angry Arya. Is this the Lyanna that we are looking for in our story. Fierce, silent, angry?
Can Lyanna mirror both of these daughters of Ned's? Interesting that Arya is silent and Sansa quiet. That is a connection, although it's not exact. Perhaps Sansa's words, which being spoken quietly, carried some anger and fierceness, as well? Is Lyanna partly represented in both of these girls behavior, perhaps even at the same time?
It reminds me of this passage:
After that the glimpses came faster and faster, till Bran was feeling lost and dizzy. He saw no more of his father, nor the girl who looked like Arya, but a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her. ADWD-Bran III
I am not saying this woman is Lyanna (although I have origamied up some lovely tinfoil in the past that indicates this scenario is possible), but could this be at least an indication of a Stark woman who can both pray quietly to the gods, while being quiet and angry and fierce? A representation of a Stark-type of woman, something that could explain both Sansa and Arya's methods?
Anyway, Ned doesn't seem surprised by either of their very different behaviors, he just wants them safe. As he perhaps wanted Lyanna safe! Did Ned have any power over whether Lyanna was safe or not? He does over his daughters, and no matter how he planned, they still were not safe in the end. Alive, but not safe. Their journey continues long after his has ended.
**
"Some whorehouse? Damn your eyes, Robert, I went there to have a look at your daughter! Her mother has named her Barra. She looks like that first girl you fathered, when we were boys together in the Vale." He watched the queen as he spoke; her face was a mask, still and pale, betraying nothing.
Robert flushed. "Barra," he grumbled. "Is that supposed to please me? Damn the girl. I thought she had more sense."
"She cannot be more than fifteen, and a whore, and you thought she had sense?" Ned said, incredulous. His leg was beginning to pain him sorely. It was hard to keep his temper. "The fool child is in love with you, Robert." AGOT-Eddard X
Robert flushed. "Barra," he grumbled. "Is that supposed to please me? Damn the girl. I thought she had more sense."
"She cannot be more than fifteen, and a whore, and you thought she had sense?" Ned said, incredulous. His leg was beginning to pain him sorely. It was hard to keep his temper. "The fool child is in love with you, Robert." AGOT-Eddard X
We establish a few things here. Robert, who is probably 36-37 year old, has a child with a whore who might have only been 14 when the conception occurred. So, Robert likes young girls! Lyanna was young, either at Harrenhal until the time of her death. 14-16 years old, she might not have been safe from his attentions. We also establish that little Barra seems to look a lot like Mya did as an infant. Ned knows, he held the child and visited her with Robert when she was young, long after Robert lost interest in Mya's mother, he still showed some interest in his child. But Robert seems to show no interest in Barra. Does he not care? Or does he fear what Cersei might do to the child? We will later find out that if he did fear Cersei, then he had every reason to. She is a snake who perhaps had his children killed before (if the information about the twins at Casterly Rock is correct) and she will have Barra killed in cold blood. An infant child! That Ned, in a flash of anger, handed to Cersei on a silver platter. We also establish that Ned thinks the whore/child is a fool who is in love with Robert. Is Ned reminded of another fool child who might have born Robert a bastard, a fool child who thought she was in love? Could Lyanna have loved Robert?
If Jon is Robert's bastard, wouldn't Ned possibly think of Jon? I suppose it would be too obvious to name Jon, but Ned could have thought of another bastard infant of Robert's who might have shared the same hair as Mya and Barra. But we get nothing that hints that Ned has ever come across another infant bastard of Roberts, whether the child was a boy or girl. I am not completely discounting Robert as being Jon's father, but this passage makes me think it's unlikely. Other passages hint strongly to me that Robert could be Jon's father, but not this passage in this chapter.
GRRM has certainly made the mystery a challenge to solve!
**
Robert reached for the flagon and refilled his cup. "You see what she does to me, Ned." The king seated himself, cradling his wine cup. "My loving wife. The mother of my children." The rage was gone from him now; in his eyes Ned saw something sad and scared. "I should not have hit her. That was not … that was not kingly." He stared down at his hands, as if he did not quite know what they were. "I was always strong … no one could stand before me, no one. How do you fight someone if you can't hit them?" Confused, the king shook his head. "Rhaegar … Rhaegar won, damn him. I killed him, Ned, I drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart, and he died at my feet. They made up songs about it. Yet somehow he still won. He has Lyanna now, and I have her." The king drained his cup. AGOT-Eddard X
Earlier in the story, Robert talks about how many times Rhaegar might have raped Lyanna. Here, his words do hint perhaps at a different relationship besides rape. Both Rhaegar and Lyanna are in an afterlife, a Hades type of place, an underworld, not necessarily a heaven or hell, but a place for dead souls. And Robert thinks that Rhaegar "has" Lyanna in this afterlife. This does hint at a relationship beyond rape. I don't favor RLJ, and I am also not very fond of any R+L scenario, but there are some hints of it in the text. They are not as concrete as many would like to say, but they do exist. And this is one of them. If Robert truly feels like Rhaegar took Lyanna against her will and raped her, why would he ever think they might be spending their time in the underworld together?
Of course, I don't think that Robert (and perhaps us the readers) or even Ned, really understand yet that the Stark underworld might be very different than most people's underworld, at least if you are buried in the crypts, which we are told Lyanna is. And there is no hint that Rhaegar lies in the crypts, but I suppose if he did, then that might be a reason for the Kings of Winter to frown on Eddard. If he allowed a Targaryen to lie in the hall of ancient Starks. But why would Ned allow such a thing? It defies logic, I think.
Sudden tinfoil popping into my head as I type. What if Rhaegar's only goal was to manipulate a situation so that his remains did end up in the crypts at Winterfell? What if there is some magic and rebirth that relates to the crypts, and Rhaegar wanted some part of that. Could he have manipulated the situation so that he could lie in the crypts? But he has no statue as far as we know, and that seems to be important, so perhaps this is just dazed-from-too-much-typing tinfoil and needs to get tossed into the garbage!
**
I just want to flash back very quickly to Arthur's sad smile and Jon's sad smile, as noted by Ned and Sam.
Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips. The hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder.
He watched the child nurse at Gilly's breast, and then he watched Jon watch. Jon is smiling. A sad smile, still, but definitely a smile of sorts.
I have wondered if this concept of Jon's sad smile and Arthur's sad smile could hint at something else. When Sam watches Jon's sad smile, it is while Gilly is feeding the child of Mance Rayder, when she is acting as a wet nurse to a child who's mother has died, or is at least not around. Since we do see hints of Jon/Grenn/Pyp imagery fighting to protect Sam in Jon IV, that could mirror Arthur/Gerald Hightower/Oswell Whent imagery protecting something in or at the toj, then could this hint at Arthur's sad smile as he watched a woman serve as wet nurse to a child who's mother has died or is missing? A child that is not his own, just as Mance's son is not Jon's son. And how does Sam and Ned work in this concept, as they are not the child's bio-father either, but both might end up claiming that child as their own bastard to raise? Is this case, who is the father that we are missing in the Ned/Arthur scenario? Although sometimes I am not even convinced that Mance is the bio-father of Dalla's child. This would be a mirror or echo like situation.
I suppose if an inverse is in play, then Arthur could be watching his own child feed at the breast of the woman is the child's mother, while Jon is watching another man's child feed at the breast of a woman who is not the child's mother!!!
**
Robert had taken time to dress. He wore a black velvet doublet with the crowned stag of Baratheon worked upon the breast in golden thread, and a golden mantle with a cloak of black and gold squares. A flagon of wine was in his hand, his face already flushed from drink. Cersei Lannister entered behind him, a jeweled tiara in her hair. AGOT-Eddard X
I don't think it ever struck me before, but House Baratheon and House Greyjoy share the same colors. This description of Robert dressed in black with a gold stag decorating his doublet stuck out to me this time around. Theon often dresses in black with a golden kraken decorating his clothing. Is there some significance to this? I have certainly never give it much of a though before, but we have this age old war between the Drowned God and the Storm God. The Baratheon's claim the Storm God as a relative through Elenai, the daughter of the Storm God who married Durran Godsgrief. Durran and the Storm God seemed to have a battle of mythic proportions. Is there some ancient tie to the Greyjoy/Iron Islanders and the Durrandon/Baratheon's?
Interestingly enough, their sigils carry the same colors, but in reverse. The Baratheon's have a black stag on a golden field, while the the Greyjoy's show a golden kraken on a black field. Sometimes in this story we have seen a reversal of a houses colors if a bastard of a house claims his father's colors, but with the colors in reverse. Could one of these houses be of bastard descent from the other house, even if it's multiple millennia ago?
ETA: I never meant for this to be soooo long! Geesh!
