She dreamt an old dream, of three girls in brown cloaks, a wattled crone, and a tent that smelled of death. AFFC-Cercei VIII
Only two girls entered the tent, the third ran off and lived happily ever after. So it's not so clear cut.
Perhaps one dream have everything taking place at one location, one dream has two elements: three girls at some distance from the tent with the old crone. If this is the "formula" used, the third dream could have three elements with longer distance between each other.
danl , stdaga , just tossing in another structure into your discussion; I don't have much else to add myself.
We do see a structure called a castle, but when seeing it has a deal lacking to live up to it's definition as a castle. Or more accurately, a waycastle:
The waycastle called Sky was no more than a high, crescent-shaped wall of unmortared stone raised against the side of the mountain, but even the topless towers of Valyria could not have looked more beautiful to Catelyn Stark. Here at last the snow crown began; Sky's weathered stones were rimed with frost, and long spears of ice hung from the slopes above.
Catelyn VI
Yes, it's good to consider something like the waycastles on the path to the Eyrie. Stone is the lowest and the largest, with two round towers and a keep, a gate, a stable and a yard. Snow is a single tower, a wood keep, a smaller stable and a low stone wall. And Sky is the highest and the smallest, with it being basically a crescent shaped stone wall with the majority of the castle inside caverns in the mountain side. No tower exists here at all. These three show a huge variety in function and size.
Whatever the tower of joy is could be about a million and a half different things, I suppose!
But you bringing up castles in the Vale again reminds be of the "tower long fallen" near the Whispers on Crackclaw point. While not in the vale, this castle might have been visible from the Vale at one point. Since your search has begun for possibilities for the "tower long fallen" this is the one that has struck me the most. Perhaps because of how it's worded in the text. I can't shake it loose!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
She dreamt an old dream, of three girls in brown cloaks, a wattled crone, and a tent that smelled of death. AFFC-Cercei VIII
Only two girls entered the tent, the third ran off and lived happily ever after. So it's not so clear cut.
Perhaps one dream have everything taking place at one location, one dream has two elements: three girls at some distance from the tent with the old crone. If this is the "formula" used, the third dream could have three elements with longer distance between each other.
I think all three went inside the tent.
Lord Tywin's daughter was the first through the flap, with Melara close behind her. Jeyne Farman came last, and tried to hide behind the other two, the way she always did.
The inside of the tent was full of smells. Cinnamon and nutmeg. Pepper, red and white and black. Almond milk and onions. Cloves and lemongrass and precious saffron, and stranger spices, rarer still. The only light came from an iron brazier shaped like a basilisk's head, a dim green light that made the walls of the tent look cold and dead and rotten. Had it been that way in life as well? Cersei could not seem to remember.
The sorceress was sleeping in the dream, as once she'd slept in life. Leave her be, the queen wanted to cry out. You little fools, never wake a sleeping sorceress. Without a tongue, she could only watch as the girl threw off her cloak, kicked the witch's bed, and said, "Wake up, we want our futures told."
When Maggy the Frog opened her eyes, Jeyne Farman gave a frightened squeak and fled the tent, plunging headlong back into the night. Plump stupid timid little Jeyne, pasty-faced and fat and scared of every shadow. She was the wise one, though. Jeyne lived on Fair Isle still. She had married one of her lord brother's bannermen and whelped a dozen children. AFFC-Cersei VIII
It doesn't seem like Jeyne stayed long, but long enough to see Maggy's eyes open, and what ever she saw, frightened some good sense into her and caused her to leave the tent. Of course, is this part of what really happened or part of the dream? Still, I think Jeyne entered the tent and then got the hell out! Very wisely!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
I know it doesn't really mesh with your theory, but I really wonder if the tower long fallen is at a different location than the toj.
I've wondered the same thing. I prefer to reject it unless evidence or a good theory change my mind. But either way, I suspect that the dream is evocative of some things that aren't really what is happening.
He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood. AGOT-Eddard X
She dreamt an old dream, of three girls in brown cloaks, a wattled crone, and a tent that smelled of death. AFFC-Cercei VIII
He dreamt an old dream of a hovel by the sea, three dogs whimpering, a woman's tears. ADWD-Prologue
Nice parallels. I wouldn't make any solid predictions based on this due to GRRM's tendency to add twists to his echoes. History sometimes repeats itself, but never fully.
I have liked to think that Ned is jumbling more than one memory in his dream, but when looking at these other dreams, it really hints that Ned's dream does indicate one past experience. And if that is the case, then the tower long fallen seems to be the tower of joy, just as you theorize. And does it also tie to Lyanna's bed of blood and three men in white cloaks and seven northern wraiths?
My notion that the tower long fallen and toj does not go so far as to assume that someone was in that tower. My preferred theory is that it is uninhabited because it was never habitable or it is fallen at the time of the meeting. It don't have much to support that other than arguments that have been hashed about many times in RLJ (or ALJ) arguments. Although I think the dream is evocative of the noble knights guarding the lady in the tower, I kinda hope it isn't something so trope-y.
Maybe so. It seems very specific that GRRM left in uncapitalized, though.
A little look at capitalization grammar from scribendi.com
I am thinking GRRM probably intended that it be uncapitalized. Ordinarily, if tower of joy is uncapitalized, it should not be 'the' tower of joy, but 'a' tower of joy, or, if a term of endearment, 'my' or 'our' tower of joy.
So, if tower of joy is as vague as bridge, as opposed to specific as Brooklyn Bridge, we might get around using the capitals. Also, it seems, terms of endearment will not require capitals.
It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory.
I don't see why a term of endearment would use the direct article. Although I suppose it could be descriptive, it being the tower where he found joy. I also find the 'but' in that sentence a bit odd. If my enemy finds a place joyous, there is no conflict in my seeing it differently. That one conjunction causes me to suspect that Rhaegar and Ned may have had some common cause. A thin reed, I know
We do see a structure called a castle, but when seeing it has a deal lacking to live up to it's definition as a castle. Or more accurately, a waycastle:
I was surprised at the use of the term when I first read it. Do you know whether it is specific to GRRM or whether it is a pre-existing usage?
He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood. AGOT-Eddard X
She dreamt an old dream, of three girls in brown cloaks, a wattled crone, and a tent that smelled of death. AFFC-Cercei VIII
He dreamt an old dream of a hovel by the sea, three dogs whimpering, a woman's tears. ADWD-Prologue
Nice parallels. I wouldn't make any solid predictions based on this due to GRRM's tendency to add twists to his echoes. History sometimes repeats itself, but never fully.
I really love the cadence of these three dreams, and the opening line of the dreams calls attention to itself, based on the similarities of the above lines. But's it's not an exact repetition by any means. I have posted on it somewhere on these boards, but I have no idea what thread it might actually be in.
Each of these starts with the old dreams, and has things in common that follow. Three knights in white cloaks, three girls in brown cloaks, three dogs whimpering. Three is important, and I have questioned if the number is important to a type of magic or sacrifice that might have gone on. We know from Varamyr's memories that all three dogs were killed, in Cersei's recollection one of the "girls" is dead, and in Eddard's dream and memory, the three men in white cloaks are implied as dead, what with the idea of the cairns and that they are not seen again, that we know of.
Then we have a tower long fallen, a tent that smelled of death, a hovel by the sea. Places or locations where something seemed to occur. There is not really any reason to doubt these locations ... except GRRM is tricky, and so I do think he allows us to follow what he has implied in the text, and not what he actually tells us happen. Cersei probably did visit Maggy in a tent, but did it really smell of death? Was Varamyr's hovel really by the sea? Was Ned's tower really long fallen? How long ago? Or does it just seem long ago now, as part of his memory?
And then a woman plays a role in each of these stanza's. Lyanna in her bed of blood, a wattled crone, a woman's tears. I have speculated that all three women have some type of power, perhaps like a wood's witch. Maggy fit's this in Cersei's dream. It is unclear about Lyanna, and as to the "woman's tear's" in Varamyr's dream, this actually fit's the idea of his mother more than the wood's witch that was summoned.
And, though similar, the order of these three dreams is different, in one the woman comes first, on one the woman is in the middle, in one, the woman is mentioned last. The order is all jumbled. I don't know if that means something, or if it was just the pattern GRRM used to get words to flow best. But I wonder if these dreams don't all come from the same place, are fed to the dreamers by the same source, and that makes me question if the dreams are not somewhat jumbled with one another. Or is there something to the change in order that needs to be righted, to make things clearer?
So, I guess that's a long way of saying, I am not sure if we can take any of the dreams wording as literal. Or parts of it. Or all of it! But their similarities cannot be denied!
Maybe so. It seems very specific that GRRM left in uncapitalized, though.
A little look at capitalization grammar from scribendi.com
I am thinking GRRM probably intended that it be uncapitalized. Ordinarily, if tower of joy is uncapitalized, it should not be 'the' tower of joy, but 'a' tower of joy, or, if a term of endearment, 'my' or 'our' tower of joy.
So, if tower of joy is as vague as bridge, as opposed to specific as Brooklyn Bridge, we might get around using the capitals. Also, it seems, terms of endearment will not require capitals.
It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory.
I don't see why a term of endearment would use the direct article. Although I suppose it could be descriptive, it being the tower where he found joy. I also find the 'but' in that sentence a bit odd. If my enemy finds a place joyous, there is no conflict in my seeing it differently. That one conjunction causes me to suspect that Rhaegar and Ned may have had some common cause. A thin reed, I know
We do see a structure called a castle, but when seeing it has a deal lacking to live up to it's definition as a castle. Or more accurately, a waycastle:
I was surprised at the use of the term when I first read it. Do you know whether it is specific to GRRM or whether it is a pre-existing usage?
So, your question about waycastles led me onto a little internet search, and I found that the term is not used often. As a matter of fact, I only found it connected to GRRM's writing in this story, and the term also comes up in a role playing video game called "Dragon's Dogma". And I would speculate that perhaps one took the phrase from the other, and since GRRM gave us Game first, I think it's his invention.
So, I searched a little more and came across this wordpress write-up called George RR Martin’s prose style and it takes a very interesting look at GRRM's wording, phrasing, cadence of speech, use of prefixes and suffixes and word combinations. It's a pretty interesting look at words structure, known language and what GRRM does with these things, perhaps all in a way that promotes that this is a fantasy world that he is writing in, to differ it from our own. The article specifically states words that do not exist in our language, such as waycastle, windburnt, evenfall, ravencraft and firewine, to name a few.
It's a quick read but interesting. I certainly have never thought about the words structure of the prose as much as the author of this has but I am glad that someone thought to do it!
So, in the same way that GRRM uses his own language to set the scene, so to speak, I think it could be said that he also does things such as leaving things uncapitalized that might otherwise be capitalized, as a took in his won writing that don't perhaps fit the rules of our everyday language. That doesn't really help us figure out what is meant by our author with "tower of joy" versus "Tower of Joy", but it does let us realize he is doing his own thing, perhaps set's aside real world grammar rules for his own benefit, and some of those things might never have a clear reason, or only might clear up at the conclusion of our story.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Although I think the dream is evocative of the noble knights guarding the lady in the tower, I kinda hope it isn't something so trope-y.
I hope it's not either. And if it is, he better tip this trope ass over tea kettle, because otherwise I might be a little disappointed. Which is perhaps unfair of me to say, but doesn't change the fact that is how I feel. That pretty much sums up my thoughts on RLJ, the love story/hidden prince story, as well!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
I really love the cadence of these three dreams, and the opening line of the dreams calls attention to itself, based on the similarities of the above lines. But's it's not an exact repetition by any means. I have posted on it somewhere on these boards, but I have no idea what thread it might actually be in.
Three knights in white cloaks, three girls in brown cloaks, three dogs whimpering. Three is important, and I have questioned if the number is important to a type of magic or sacrifice that might have gone on.
Three is obviously mystical and has stood for the divine at least since the time of the Pharoahs. It was rooted in families of gods, with father, mother and son. I think the Christian doctrine of the trinity (that God is three persons in one) was developed in Egypt (although the source material for it did not). So perhaps we should look for a unity of the three characters. With three KG or three dogs, that is pretty easy to see. In Cersei's dream, there is some unity of purpose but there may be more to root out.
Each of these starts with the old dreams, and has things in common that follow. Three knights in white cloaks, three girls in brown cloaks, three dogs whimpering. Three is important, and I have questioned if the number is important to a type of magic or sacrifice that might have gone on. We know from Varamyr's memories that all three dogs were killed, in Cersei's recollection one of the "girls" is dead, and in Eddard's dream and memory, the three men in white cloaks are implied as dead, what with the idea of the cairns and that they are not seen again, that we know of.
In the deaths, Cersei's dream is the one that doesn't fit the pattern here. While I am open to the possibility that some or all of the KG did not die, on the terms of the dream, they are gone.
Was Ned's tower really long fallen? How long ago? Or does it just seem long ago now, as part of his memory?
On first reading, I thought the tower was standing at the time of the meeting but fallen at the time that Ned had the dream, as if it read 'now long fallen.' I still think that is a possible reading but am open to the possibility that it fell weeks, years, or centuries before the meeting.
So, I guess that's a long way of saying, I am not sure if we can take any of the dreams wording as literal. Or parts of it. Or all of it! But their similarities cannot be denied!
I think we can take some of them as literal, but I'm not sure which bits. I'm fairly confident about the bit of who rode with Ned, and I think Cersei met with a woods witch. Beyond that, confidence is a bit diminished.
So, I searched a little more and came across this wordpress write-up called George RR Martin’s prose style and it takes a very interesting look at GRRM's wording, phrasing, cadence of speech, use of prefixes and suffixes and word combinations.
I hope it's not either. And if it is, he better tip this trope ass over tea kettle, because otherwise I might be a little disappointed. Which is perhaps unfair of me to say, but doesn't change the fact that is how I feel. That pretty much sums up my thoughts on RLJ, the love story/hidden prince story, as well!
It's not fair or unfair. GRRM builds expectations; that's part of the craft of a good writer. If RLJ, there may be a dark twist that gives me joy at watching my tower of expectations fall. IF R+L=the promised king and everyone lives happily ever after, I still won't be as disappointed as those readers who threw their books in the fire after the Red Wedding.
Three is obviously mystical and has stood for the divine at least since the time of the Pharoahs. It was rooted in families of gods, with father, mother and son. I think the Christian doctrine of the trinity (that God is three persons in one) was developed in Egypt (although the source material for it did not). So perhaps we should look for a unity of the three characters. With three KG or three dogs, that is pretty easy to see. In Cersei's dream, there is some unity of purpose but there may be more to root out.
Interesting that you mention a trinity. In a way, Ned, Cersei and Varamyr are a trinity, because their dreams unite them in some way, at least in unites the three of them in our thoughts about this dream style.
I am not sure about the three girls in Cersei's dreams, but it might indicate that they all need to die. Or perhaps they were supposed to die, but something changed? This is part of the connections that befuddles me!
On first reading, I thought the tower was standing at the time of the meeting but fallen at the time that Ned had the dream, as if it read 'now long fallen.' I still think that is a possible reading but am open to the possibility that it fell weeks, years, or centuries before the meeting.
I can see it in several ways. I am more inclined now a days to think the tower fell long ago, long before Ned ever came across it.
I think we can take some of them as literal, but I'm not sure which bits. I'm fairly confident about the bit of who rode with Ned, and I think Cersei met with a woods witch. Beyond that, confidence is a bit diminished.
It's kind of bizarre, but the more I read and think on these things, the less sure I become. It doesn't seem like that is how it should be, but that is how it has been for me. My first read through this series felt pretty sure and certain, but over time, that has changed. And now I am not sure of even the most basic things, sometimes. I think that is an indication of just how deeply woven and complicated that GRRM has made this story.
It's not fair or unfair. GRRM builds expectations; that's part of the craft of a good writer. If RLJ, there may be a dark twist that gives me joy at watching my tower of expectations fall. IF R+L=the promised king and everyone lives happily ever after, I still won't be as disappointed as those readers who threw their books in the fire after the Red Wedding.
He has built great expectations for me and for this story. I expect several dark twists, but I can't imagine that one of them is RLJ themed. However, I am trying to be more open for R+L in some way to affect this story's conclusion, which two years ago, I would have denied completely. But I really don't see a massive love story, although there is a Paris and Helen and the whole devastating Trojen War saga that has always been hinted at with R+L. And if there was a child, I am leaning more toward Daenerys or Samwell. Dany's story has very odd hints of both ice and fire in it, much more than any other storyline, I think. Hard for me to shake the idea that she is connected to Ashara, however. And Sam, I don't know why, but there is something that rings very false in his history. He is drawn to the old gods for some reason, and the very first time Ghost meets him, he licks his face. Odd of our direwolves to act so gentle with people not of Stark blood!
But to be honest, the only thing I would find truly disappointing, is that GRRM doesn't finish this series and we are left with D&D's version as a conclusion!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
I was surprised at the use of the term when I first read it. Do you know whether it is specific to GRRM or whether it is a pre-existing usage?
I thought it was a "real" term, as I know little and less of these things. But it seems not as I couldn't find any dictionary/encyclopedia mention of it. What I DID find was several links to fantacy gaming, so it might be a fantacy and/or gaming term. How much it might be used, I have no idea as I'm not a gamer. If Martin has taken it from these sources of they took it from him, I don't know.
It's impossible to remember it all. I often look back at the text and am reminded of all the details it's so hard to remember.
I just looked into this dream in detail because I was trying to refute if the cloaks those girls wore were actually brown. There is no reason to think they weren't, but I was trying to see if details like that could change from reality to dream. Brown cloaks play in Cersei's dream and white cloaks play in Ned's dream. In Varamyr's dream, there are no cloaks, just three dogs, who are covered in hair, so I suppose that is a cloak of sorts. Geez, I just slipped into a rabbit hole, again!
I thought it was a "real" term, as I know little and less of these things. But it seems not as I couldn't find any dictionary/encyclopedia mention of it. What I DID find was several links to fantacy gaming, so it might be a fantacy and/or gaming term. How much it might be used, I have no idea as I'm not a gamer. If Martin has taken it from these sources of they took it from him, I don't know.
I did come across an article that gives GRRM credit for making up the word 'waycastle' among others. Its a short read, and pretty interesting look at GRRM's use of language. I linked it up thread if you are interested. There were several words that he uses that do not exist in real language that feel quite natural to me, perhaps because of the multiple times I have read these books now. Before this question was asked, I never had even wondered if waycastle was a real word/term or not. It just feels very natural. Interestingly, in these novels, the term is only so far been applied to the three castles on the way to the Eyrie, so he seems to be using it very specifically.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Interesting that you mention a trinity. In a way, Ned, Cersei and Varamyr are a trinity, because their dreams unite them in some way, at least in unites the three of them in our thoughts about this dream style.
There are similarities between Ned and Cersei, Ned and Varamr, Cersei and Varamyr. Looking for links between the three might take a complete re-read.
I am not sure about the three girls in Cersei's dreams, but it might indicate that they all need to die. Or perhaps they were supposed to die, but something changed? This is part of the connections that befuddles me!
Perhaps Cersei's children were the sacrifice that prevented that? The sacrifice of Dany's child comes to mind; MM said she knew, and maybe she did. Would Cersei sacrifice her children to save herself? Probably. But it's worth remembering that, in the Ancient and Medieval world, sacrificing one's child(ren) means sacrificing ones destiny. In a sense that is still true, but we are an individualistic culture so those implications are not as clear. In the Iliad, Achilles faces the choice between a long and content life or a short life as a hero. In the end, he chooses his heroic destiny. Dany sacrificed the destiny of the Stallion Who Mounts the World for her domestic reality and lost both, but found a heroic destiny. At this point, it looks like Cersei sacrificed her children to gain a life in which everything she holds dear turns to ashes. But maybe Cersei's children don't all die. (Maybe Tommen is the Valonqar). I'm not sure how this ties in but it's where my thoughts went and my fingers just followed Ned's death unleashed a collection of seemingly separate Stark destinies on the world. In Varamyr's death scattered him into the world. It's hard to see what potential Cercei has left, but I'm sure GRRM can think of something
It's kind of bizarre, but the more I read and think on these things, the less sure I become.
After studying life for more than half of a century, the more I read and think about it, the less sure I become that I understand anything. So maybe a realistic fictional world should be the same
But I really don't see a massive love story, although there is a Paris and Helen and the whole devastating Trojen War saga that has always been hinted at with R+L.
There are multiple versions of the rape of Helen. In some (most?) of them, Helen is a willing and eager participant. But it is still rape because it is against the wishes of her husband and king. I have looked for that ugly bit in the R+L stories, but haven't really found a parallel. As far as I can tell, in ASOIAF, rape means the woman is unwilling
And Sam, I don't know why, but there is something that rings very false in his history.
My inclination is to take Sam pretty literally. But I'm someone who doesn't notice a rabbit hole until someone points it out, then I spot five other rabbit holes and start exploring them all
But to be honest, the only thing I would find truly disappointing, is that GRRM doesn't finish this series and we are left with D&D's version as a conclusion!
!!!NEVER!!! I am far more comfortable with lack of closure than I would be with any D&D conclusion. If I need closure, I'll take my headcanon, or yours, or just about any of the regular contributors on this board. OK. I'm not watching the show, so maybe there is a level of nuance that I'm not aware of, but my impression is that I would find it very entertaining, but not the same sort of fiction that GRRM writes
I thought it was a "real" term, as I know little and less of these things. But it seems not as I couldn't find any dictionary/encyclopedia mention of it.
I thought it was a real word. stdaga did some research and found references in GRRM and gaming. The GRRM references were earlier. stdaga also found a essay on GRRM's use of invented words that is referenced above in this thread
Perhaps Cersei's children were the sacrifice that prevented that? The sacrifice of Dany's child comes to mind; MM said she knew, and maybe she did. Would Cersei sacrifice her children to save herself? Probably. But it's worth remembering that, in the Ancient and Medieval world, sacrificing one's child(ren) means sacrificing ones destiny. In a sense that is still true, but we are an individualistic culture so those implications are not as clear.
Cersei's three children might fit the idea of a sacrifice of three. Shrouds is certainly tied to those children, and therefore death. But as we hear often in the story, all men must die! But I do think that Cersei would sacrifice them all for power. As a matter of fact, I have wondered if the more beautiful queen that Cersei fears might turn out to be Myrcella. It's very possible that Dorne could still crown her queen. I think that Doran is playing more than one game within the seven kingdoms.
In the Iliad, Achilles faces the choice between a long and content life or a short life as a hero. In the end, he chooses his heroic destiny. Dany sacrificed the destiny of the Stallion Who Mounts the World for her domestic reality and lost both, but found a heroic destiny. At this point, it looks like Cersei sacrificed her children to gain a life in which everything she holds dear turns to ashes. But maybe Cersei's children don't all die. (Maybe Tommen is the Valonqar). I'm not sure how this ties in but it's where my thoughts went and my fingers just followed Ned's death unleashed a collection of seemingly separate Stark destinies on the world. In Varamyr's death scattered him into the world. It's hard to see what potential Cercei has left, but I'm sure GRRM can think of something
I do think that GRRM has plans for Cersei! What they are, I can't imagine, but I am sure they will be fun to watch play out. As for Dany, I sometimes wonder if her choice didn't really sacrifice the Stallion who Mounts the World, just who was playing the role of the stallion. Dany could easily fit that role, and so could Drogon. I actually see some potential for Jon to have to marry Myrcella to fix this mess between Lannister and Stark. I think Tommen doesn't make it to the end, which is too bad, because he seems like a decent kiddo.
My inclination is to take Sam pretty literally. But I'm someone who doesn't notice a rabbit hole until someone points it out, then I spot five other rabbit holes and start exploring them all
!!!NEVER!!! I am far more comfortable with lack of closure than I would be with any D&D conclusion. If I need closure, I'll take my headcanon, or yours, or just about any of the regular contributors on this board. OK. I'm not watching the show, so maybe there is a level of nuance that I'm not aware of, but my impression is that I would find it very entertaining, but not the same sort of fiction that GRRM writes
I would like some closure from the author. I enjoy my own head canon, but it's not quite the same thing. But perhaps having no conclusion would actually be the best outcome for the entire fandom. Then everyone would be pleased with their own head canon!
I admit I was entertained with the show, but it has faded each year. Last year was nearly the end of it for me. I will watch Season 8 but I have no expectations at all, except to be disappointed.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
stdaga , I used to be R+A=D but when i saw that Dany must drink from the cups of Ice and Fire i changed to R+L=D .
That line in Dany's House of the Undying vision is certainly interesting. I don't really favor any R+L scenario, but Dany does fit in many ways. But if Dany is that child, then I speculate there could be a twin. It might have died, but if it lived, I think it could be Meera. I can't shake that Meera's color hints in the story fit Rhaegal so well. The bronze, the green, the scales, Meera's pledge of Ice and Fire, Meera's netting of a direwolf could hint at her netting a dragon, Meera is not afraid of heights, which is helpful when riding a dragon. Of course, Meera would either need to be a bit younger than she thinks, or Dany a bit older, but either option could work.
Shiny tinfoil coming: If I thought triplets were possible, I would keep speculating, just for someone to fit the third dragon. Three is a strong number in this story, usually with sacrifice, but perhaps in other ways, as well. I wish we had a clearer idea of how old Young Griff/Aegon was?
I think it's far more likely that both Rhaenys and Aegon lived and Dany is the third head on her own. Rhaegar's three!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.