I've oft said that of Jon Arryn. Jon played the Starks like a fiddle.
Perhaps as delicately as Rhaegar played his silver harp! I agree there is a lot that hints that perhaps Jon Arryn was one of the masterminds behind the fall of the Targaryen's, and that he boldly used his loyal wards to strike the killing blows.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Perhaps this is all about how Ned should be aware that his side might have only won the war because SAD, Whent, Hightower, Tyrell, and Redwyne all removed themselves from the playing field?
Perhaps both are exploring the question whether they can be allies. Neither wants to speak openly until the relationship is clear. I suggested earlier that the coming together of the swords could be ceremony or ritual. Another possibility is that the dream is carrying out Ned's fears for the encounter. I'm not sure what to do with the fact that Ned's companions mostly didn't survive the encounter (unless I am mixing events together, which is definitely possible with the vague hints we have)
We don't know by any means what Gared told Ned that day we are first introduced to Ice and Stark justice, but it doesn't seem like it convinced Eddard that he needed to remain in the north and fight the enemy that comes with the cold.
Or Ned was hiding something. He doesn't seem to take Gared's warning (implicit or explicit) seriously, but there may be some misdirection here, both on the part of Ned and of GRRM
It is a story of the heart divided against itself. It's been a long time since I actually read the stuff and there are many different versions and few few different versions that are considered definitive, so I'm a bit vague, but: King Arthur founded the round table staffed by brave and virtuous knights. The knights were one in their love of virtue and of nobility and of Arthur. The most noble and loyal of those knights was Lancelot, who was loved and admired by Arthur and by all of the other knights (well, almost all, but that is another tangle with multiple versions and is dim in my recollection). Lancelot was also admired and loved by Arthur's wife, Gwenevere. When Lancelot and Gwenevere were discovered together, they fled. War ensued. The knights were divided, some going with Lancelot, some warring against him.
Thanks for the bare bones! That really is helpful! I've tried to read the summaries online several places, but they've all had too much details, so I get lost in names and start reading up on different story lines without finishing... Other than that, Monty Pyhton's version is the one I know best, so...
(I was thinking you were thinking of one specific story here, but as I see you were not. Good to have that cleared up before I went looking for that one! )
I am not really trying to argue SAD+L or R+L. I don't find enough evidence to support (or refute) either. But I think this passage is very evocative. Of course, in terms of what really happened, evocative can be deceiving. But part of the hunting beauty of the dream is the collection of myths and archetypes that it touches.
Oh, I agree! There is much imagery in this dream!
As seems to be Martin's style, he chops up well known myths and legends and make them his own; here we could also toss Robert into the mix. Both Arthur and Rhaegar has lots of Arthurian imagery in them, so it's far from clear who is who in Martin's version.
Personally I have huge problems seeing anyone else in or near that tower. I might just have to get that in writing from the man himself! And after my digressing in the White Shadows thread (5. post on the first page), I have a huge problem seeing them in any kind of protective mode at all. The gist of it is, as DarkSister1001 points out, we get three Kingsguards described as White Shadows and every time they are in protective mode. Arthur, Gerold and Whent on the other hand, is specifically noted as "no shadows". It is one of those things I now am unable to unsee, so I might have gotten a bias developed there...
I really don't know. Rhaegar seeing the truth about Aerys makes the most sense and is the most straight forward interpretation. It also perhaps implied that Rhaegar was blind or trusting in his father far to long, and that doesn't fit the idea we are hinted at about Rhaegar perhaps moving against Aerys as early as Duskendale. I am probably a victim of myself trying to look deeper for meaning than might be necessary. It's part of the "question everything, especially what is implied" path that I am currently one.
I agree that Rhaegar seeing is most straight forward, to be sure. Hell, I've argued that many a time myself!
As for the Duskendale incident, I'm far from sure Rhaegar had anything to do with that. The best hint of that is Tywin's comment before Barristan went on his mission impossible, but we get no hint of Rhaegar's reaction to it. At all. The second thing is Aerys suspecting Rhaegar having a hand in it. But did he really? Oops, that was a double edged question! Did Aerys really suspect him? Did Rhaegar really have a hand? Those rumors of the rift between father and son might be somewhere between exaggerations and outright lies for all we know.
I do have some recent tinfoil on what might be going on with Aerys in the latter years, though. Hastily put together, had to get it out of my system and rushed it a bit, but the gist of it is there, at least. If you, or anyone else, are interested.
I do think that anytime someone admires someone so much, that their impression of them could be skewed. Much like I think that Robert has perhaps a skewed perception of the real Lyanna, because he admired her too deeply without really knowing her. I also question what we hear of Rhaegar from Cersei's POV, because she seems obviously still in love (or at least to deeply admire him) with him, or at least the image she has of him in her head. But Cersei was probably more in love with the idea of Rhaegar and his power than Rhaegar himself.
I think it's quite clear that Robert had a very skewed view on Lyanna, and I doubt Cersei every knew Rhaegar personally. Superficially, most like, but not personally! So I agree that Cersei loves the idea of the man, his beauty, and his power.
However, I would imagine that JonCon knew Rhaegar better than Cersei did, even if they never were lovers. Still, his admiration is obvious and I think it does skew his thoughts. It might not change every meaning, but it's just something that I try to be aware of. I think this could apply to Ned's thoughts on Lyanna, too. Those thoughts might be skewed because he loved her so much, even if he claims to know the "iron underneath". Admiration, or lack of it, does alter our perceptions of people, even when we have been bathed in reality.
As to what GRRM might mean with the possibilities with the "unreliable narrator" in this story, I have no idea how deep it could go. I certainly don't think anyone in this story was perfect, or near perfect, and that seems to be how JonCon looks at Rhaegar, and that makes me suspicious. Hell, I LOVE The Neddard, but I don't think he was perfect by any means.
JonCon being one of Rhaegar's friends and companions means, imo, that he knew Rhaegar far better than Cersei ever did. She probably only saw Prince Silverstring and not the man underneath. And while JonCon obviously loved Rhaegar as more than a friend, lover or not, he probably knew the man underneath to some extent at least.
Fifteen years on, his memories has taken on a glorified tint to say the least, and should be taken with a good dollop of salt. That being said, this one sentence might be the one that has some truth to it. I might be wrong on that, to be sure, but it's the one thing I see as more truth-worthy of his memories. Not convinced either way, just having it in mind.
I could be wrong about this, and there seem to be many people who disagree, but I think GRRM uses these themes from myth and fairytale, not for a structure for his plot but as pieces to evoke the myth then move on. The beautiful woman unguarded in her tower or castle may be found in the story, but that doesn't mean that a prince will waken her. Sleeping beauty is more likely to be raped or murdered in her bed. How's that for a bed of blood?
That is what part of me is suspecting: Martin using the framework, but not in his own plot.
And the prince might not do what we expect him to do! That part reminded me of his comment on the nature of princes. Paraphrasing here; A real prince would not take it kindly to the peasant girl who mouths off to him. The real prince would rape her. I think this is something to have in mind in this mystery!
Things are going well. I haven't been as absent as it seems, but haven't had time to participate. Partly it's work. But it partly the call of the outdoors.
Good to see you again! I have nothing to say on the outdoors calling! Summertime is outdoor time for me, and I abandon the internet without a hint of regret!
I can't attach myself to any approach that says they are not the same tower, but I have to admit that it is wishful thinking on my part that says the tower long-fallen is the toj.
I'm not married to this idea at all. Frankly, there is little information to go on for an alternative castle/tower. At the same time, I have so huge problems seeing anyone else being present there at all, so...
You bring to mind a delightfully silly opera by Jacques Offenbach, "Orpheus in the Underworld." Hades steals Persephone, not from her mother, but from her husband, Orpheus. When he discovers that she has been stolen, Orpheus is delighted to be rid of her, but the Chorus of Public Opinion forces him to travel to the Underworld in an attempt to recover her.
Robert is not so much mourning the loss of his lover as he is angry at the theft of what he thought was his.
Oh, I agree completely! He is like a child that has had his toy taken from him! Which reminds me of that other little Robert, who is always in company with his doll. Until Sansa takes a hand.
So instead of the cold darkness of sorrow, we have the heat of rage. Demeter, goddess of Spring, withdrew from the world and it was Winter. Robert, king of Summer, projects himself upon the world, and summer lingers.
I do have some recent tinfoil on what might be going on with Aerys in the latter years, though. Hastily put together, had to get it out of my system and rushed it a bit, but the gist of it is there, at least. If you, or anyone else, are interested.
I'm definitely going to take a look. Aerys is so much the perfect evil madman that I suspect that there may be some sense in his actions. I haven't been able to put together a coherent thread through his actions, though
I'm definitely going to take a look. Aerys is so much the perfect evil madman that I suspect that there may be some sense in his actions. I haven't been able to put together a coherent thread through his actions, though
Indeed he is! While I have toyed with the idea of him faking his madness, I'm not really convinced of that either. He might very well have been man, but there can be reason in the madness. And if Rhaegar knew those... Well, his actions might be a little different if so.
You could definitely say that Monty Python is to the Arthur mythos what Offenbach is to the Hades and Persephone story.
Even more interesting, eh? I do have an affinity to intelligent mockery of well-known stories and myths. Done right, you might just learn something or see it in a different light.
And if Martin is aware of this as well, he might just have used it!
I'm not sure what to do with the fact that Ned's companions mostly didn't survive the encounter (unless I am mixing events together, which is definitely possible with the vague hints we have)
Well, it's hard to know what events are mixed together for us, since Ned can't even seem to separate dream from reality. It makes it very difficult to know what really happened, or what Ned might wish had happened, or what might change from dream to dream. As to who survived and who didn't and when and where they might have died, I think all of that is purposely vague on our author's part and the truth will be meant to surprise us in the end.
Or Ned was hiding something. He doesn't seem to take Gared's warning (implicit or explicit) seriously, but there may be some misdirection here, both on the part of Ned and of GRRM
Well, we really have no idea what Gared told Ned as Bran seems to have little recollection of the words and doesn't comment on them at all. Does Jon remember or recollect these words? He stood by Bran at the execution, so he would have heard everything that Ned and Bran heard. Jon has seen the wights, knows the stories of the white walkers, and he never seems to think back to this scene with Gared, except when he is deserting the Wall. Then he thinks of Gared's head but at no other time. Which makes me think that Gared's words, what ever they might have been, didn't have anything to do with the Other's, wight's or even what happened to Waymar Royce. Waymar Royce is mentioned several times at the Wall, and Jon never ties Gared's word to the missing rangers. Otherwise it's very odd that Jon doesn't put these connections together. Jon is not stupid.
We certainly don't get any of this from Ned's POV, so we don't know how he processes and what he hears, but he seems to not be afraid of Mance, but his words to Cat indicate that this interaction with Gared has placed what is happening north of the wall into his thoughts. Ned tells Cat it's the wildlings and that he will need to call his banner's, march north and face Mance, who he doesn't seem to fear. Of course, these are only words that Ned speaks, and he might be lying or trying to protect Cat from the reality of what is really going on. Except Ned doesn't really sugar coat things to Arya or Sansa later in our story, and he certainly doesn't think a seven year old is two young to see a man die and he thinks a three-year old shouldn't fear a direwolf. Is Ned a sugar coater? Why would he lie to Cat in this case? But if Ned was concerned with the Other's, then he doesn't give any indication of this. Neither does Robb, who also must have heard Gared's words before the execution. Robb doesn't seem to be concerned with the need for marching his banner's north, and this makes me think that whatever Gared said made no more impression on Robb than it did Bran or Ned or Jon.
So, I again circle back to Jon's hearing of Gared's words (no reason to think he didn't hear what was spoken) and his lack of connecting it to the Other's is very odd to me, if indeed that is what Gared spoke of. So, I really don't think that Gared's words had anything to do with the Others. For all we know, Gared might never have seen the Other's like Waymar and Will did. Gared disappears from the chapter before Will climbs the tree and Waymar faces whatever it was he faced before his death.
I am inclined to think this is subterfuge on GRRM's part, more than Ned's.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
I do have some recent tinfoil on what might be going on with Aerys in the latter years, though. Hastily put together, had to get it out of my system and rushed it a bit, but the gist of it is there, at least. If you, or anyone else, are interested.
I haven't had a chance to read this yet but hopefully in the next day or two. Then I can comment.
I think it's quite clear that Robert had a very skewed view on Lyanna, and I doubt Cersei every knew Rhaegar personally. Superficially, most like, but not personally! So I agree that Cersei loves the idea of the man, his beauty, and his power.
Agreed! Lack of really knowing someone and having day dreams or fantasies can be very misleading. For Cersei with Rhaegar, just as for Robert with Lyanna.
JonCon being one of Rhaegar's friends and companions means, imo, that he knew Rhaegar far better than Cersei ever did. She probably only saw Prince Silverstring and not the man underneath. And while JonCon obviously loved Rhaegar as more than a friend, lover or not, he probably knew the man underneath to some extent at least.
Fifteen years on, his memories has taken on a glorified tint to say the least, and should be taken with a good dollop of salt. That being said, this one sentence might be the one that has some truth to it. I might be wrong on that, to be sure, but it's the one thing I see as more truth-worthy of his memories. Not convinced either way, just having it in mind.
I don't doubt that Jon Con knew Rhaegar and was really his friend, but I question how friendship and admiration can blind a person. Perhaps Jon Con is so enamored of Rhaegar as a friend that he is blind to Rhaegar's faults or actions? I think this is also displayed in Ned and Robert's friendship. Ned certainly knows Robert for a long time and knows him well, but I think that Ned is still very blind to many of Robert's faults, and might even be in denial about some of Robert's more questionable choices or cruel behavior. So for me, just because Jon Con think's well of Rhaegar, I don't necessarily trust that. Just like I think that I shouldn't perhaps trust how much Ned admires Robert, because Ned might be blind to Robert's true self, or at least blind or in denial about Robert's less admirable qualities.
Indeed he is! While I have toyed with the idea of him faking his madness, I'm not really convinced of that either. He might very well have been man, but there can be reason in the madness. And if Rhaegar knew those... Well, his actions might be a little different if so.
I don't know what benefit there would be for Aerys to fake his madness? Perhaps I am misunderstanding your thoughts. I would speculate that Aerys might not be quite as crazy as the history we are told indicates, but the man must have been doing some odd things. Even Varys seems to hint at this, I think, and perhaps took advantage of this. I think Aerys was probably quite cruel, and it's easy to blame that behavior on Targaryen madness. Now, whether Aerys had a reason to feel that his actions made quite a bit of sense, I am not sure how we will hear about that, but there might be some reveal still coming in our story.
Although, there is the idea floating about that Rhaegar wished Jaime to kill Aerys, I am still not convinced that Jaime would do this for Rhaegar, no matter what. But I do think that Jaime would do anything for Cersei, and I think Cersei was quite capable of planting the idea in Jaime's head that Aerys must die, even if it's a raven from Casterly Rock. I do think Jaime does think that Aerys was mad and cruel, but I am still not sure that it was his idea alone to kill Aerys. I just see him having a different possible accomplice. Hopefully we get an answer on this some day, but GRRM might leave it open to interpretation.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
I don't doubt that Jon Con knew Rhaegar and was really his friend, but I question how friendship and admiration can blind a person. Perhaps Jon Con is so enamored of Rhaegar as a friend that he is blind to Rhaegar's faults or actions? I think this is also displayed in Ned and Robert's friendship. Ned certainly knows Robert for a long time and knows him well, but I think that Ned is still very blind to many of Robert's faults, and might even be in denial about some of Robert's more questionable choices or cruel behavior. So for me, just because Jon Con think's well of Rhaegar, I don't necessarily trust that. Just like I think that I shouldn't perhaps trust how much Ned admires Robert, because Ned might be blind to Robert's true self, or at least blind or in denial about Robert's less admirable qualities.
I don't trust any character implicitly in everything they say. Of all JonCon says, this is really the only interesting thing that I keep in mind. It might be right, it might be wrong. Time will tell.
I don't know what benefit there would be for Aerys to fake his madness? Perhaps I am misunderstanding your thoughts. I would speculate that Aerys might not be quite as crazy as the history we are told indicates, but the man must have been doing some odd things. Even Varys seems to hint at this, I think, and perhaps took advantage of this. I think Aerys was probably quite cruel, and it's easy to blame that behavior on Targaryen madness. Now, whether Aerys had a reason to feel that his actions made quite a bit of sense, I am not sure how we will hear about that, but there might be some reveal still coming in our story.
Sorry, that was my mind's shortcut system getting on-page. I wasn't trying to imply that he was being the mummer-of-the-year all that time.
Although, there is the idea floating about that Rhaegar wished Jaime to kill Aerys, I am still not convinced that Jaime would do this for Rhaegar, no matter what. But I do think that Jaime would do anything for Cersei, and I think Cersei was quite capable of planting the idea in Jaime's head that Aerys must die, even if it's a raven from Casterly Rock. I do think Jaime does think that Aerys was mad and cruel, but I am still not sure that it was his idea alone to kill Aerys. I just see him having a different possible accomplice. Hopefully we get an answer on this some day, but GRRM might leave it open to interpretation.
I kinda like that idea, but that doesn't mean it's what happened. I do think it's possible Rhaegar goaded Jamie into it. Short version: Rhaegar knows enough about Jamie to think he'd stand up to Aerys if he went too far (like blowing up King's Landing). perhaps he learned of Jamie's objections when Rhaella got her post-BBQ visit or something. He's left alone with Aerys, Rhaegar points out he's a hostage and a crutch and so fanning his pride. When the order was given, Jamie acted like expected.
Am I convinced of this? No.
I'm not sure if he planned anything more than not using his white armor, as to kinda not do it as a White Sword. A raven arriving from Casterly Rock? I doubt it... Considering the times, I'd think Aerys had a careful eye on ravens flying in, and not only trust in Pycelle to tell him.
Well, it's hard to know what events are mixed together for us, since Ned can't even seem to separate dream from reality. It makes it very difficult to know what really happened, or what Ned might wish had happened, or what might change from dream to dream. As to who survived and who didn't and when and where they might have died, I think all of that is purposely vague on our author's part and the truth will be meant to surprise us in the end.
I seem to be pretty much wedded to the notion that Tower of Joy is the tower long-fallen. I have to admit that the evidence is pretty thin. I think I could be pried away with evidence to the contrary or with a nice theory that is inconsistent with it. It is an interesting revelation to me because I usually don't attach myself to something without pretty good evidence or a well-developed theory. I guess I spent enough years finding it obvious before someone came along and pointed out that the emperor had no clothes; none of my own speculation is really well-developed, but if I let go of that certainty, I don't know if I'll have anything left. Yes, I am very much aware that this is a silly reason to hang onto a theory. Maybe I'll try to be more open minded about it
Which makes me think that Gared's words, what ever they might have been, didn't have anything to do with the Other's, wight's or even what happened to Waymar Royce.
I think you have gathered a convincing case here. Especially in Jon's apparent failure to recall Gared. But Jon did notice that Gared was paralyzed with fear, which had to raise the question what frightened him so.
We certainly don't get any of this from Ned's POV, so we don't know how he processes and what he hears, but he seems to not be afraid of Mance, but his words to Cat indicate that this interaction with Gared has placed what is happening north of the wall into his thoughts.
Just because of the structure of the story, I suspect that the hidden backstory intersects with the horrors that are developing in the North and that Ned has been tied up in that. If that is the case, either Ned knows (in which case he would have wanted to question Gared or silence him) or Brandon and/or Lyanna knew and Ned was left out of the loop with tragic results. Surely Ned noticed what Jon noticed and it seems odd that he didn't question Gared. Or maybe he did but we haven't been told.
I don't doubt that Jon Con knew Rhaegar and was really his friend, but I question how friendship and admiration can blind a person. Perhaps Jon Con is so enamored of Rhaegar as a friend that he is blind to Rhaegar's faults or actions? I think this is also displayed in Ned and Robert's friendship. Ned certainly knows Robert for a long time and knows him well, but I think that Ned is still very blind to many of Robert's faults, and might even be in denial about some of Robert's more questionable choices or cruel behavior. So for me, just because Jon Con think's well of Rhaegar, I don't necessarily trust that. Just like I think that I shouldn't perhaps trust how much Ned admires Robert, because Ned might be blind to Robert's true self, or at least blind or in denial about Robert's less admirable qualities.
This type of blindness is complicated. Yes, Ned admired Robert despite Robert being a reprehensible human being. But Ned know very well that he was always left to clean up after Robert. Ned knew Robert's flaws, but he admired his strengths, which were considerable.
I seem to be pretty much wedded to the notion that Tower of Joy is the tower long-fallen. I have to admit that the evidence is pretty thin. I think I could be pried away with evidence to the contrary or with a nice theory that is inconsistent with it. It is an interesting revelation to me because I usually don't attach myself to something without pretty good evidence or a well-developed theory. I guess I spent enough years finding it obvious before someone came along and pointed out that the emperor had no clothes; none of my own speculation is really well-developed, but if I let go of that certainty, I don't know if I'll have anything left. Yes, I am very much aware that this is a silly reason to hang onto a theory. Maybe I'll try to be more open minded about it
Truly, I understand not wanting to let go of a concept or idea. And there is no reason to let it go. But I am going to fling a little toj tinfoil at you and see what you think.
I am not so certain of what the tower of joy really was. A couple month back on a Heresy thread over on Westeros, I decided to look into burial monuments. Cairns, most specifically, but also cists and tombs and barrows, and it led me to some interesting places and thoughts. This might be very cracked pot, but I have become enamored of the idea that the tower of joy was no building at all, or even a man made tower of stacked rocks. It's always seemed odd that Ned refers to it in his memory with out capitalization. Even the nickname of a building should have capitals, I would think.
So, while studying bronze age burial sites in Devon and Cornwall, my memory was refreshed to the idea of tor's. Tor's are rocky hills or peaks, or a standing rock formation, sometimes on a hills summit or ridge line. All of those things kind of came together for me, and I began to wonder if tower of joy might be a slight play on words. Was the tower of joy no tower at all, but a tor, a natural rock formation on a ridge?
So, I watched video's and looked at photo's, and have really embraced this idea that the tower of joy was a nickname that Rhaegar gave to a tor. I think this tor was probably a meeting place of some type, but it was never a man-made tower. Tor is Cornish, twrr is Welsh, torr is Scottish, all meaning hill. These landforms are created by erosion of the soil above and around, finally leaving a raised tower looking object, usually made of granite, but also sandstones and limestones and dolimites. They are usually no greater than 16ft in height, but are easily noted along a landscape. Even listening to a devonshire man say tor sounds just like tower, to my hillbilly ears! GRRM is really smart with plays on words, and so I do wonder about tors and towers being such a thing in this story.
Something like this, perhaps ...
or
Now, as for Ned tearing this tower/tor down and making eight cairns along the ridge, I think certain types of tor's might be more easily destroyed, and each of these cairns might exist of no more that one large stone each. Still, the idea of how heavy such stones would be to move is hard to imagine, but I do think people are capable of great strength at times, especially in anger. I am reminded of Jon ripping a deeply seated spear out of frozen ground with one hand while several man struggle to remove the other spears and displaying none of the ease in which Jon seems to be capable of at this time.
Jon Snow grasped the spear that bore Garth Greyfeather's head and wrenched it violently from the ground. "Pull down the other two," he commanded, and four of the crows hurried to obey.
Bowen Marsh's cheeks were red with cold. "We should never have sent out rangers."
"This is not the time and place to pick at that wound. Not here, my lord. Not now." To the men struggling with the spears Snow said, "Take the heads and burn them. Leave nothing but bare bone." Only then did he seem to notice Melisandre. "My lady. Walk with me, if you would." ADWD-Melisandre I
Jon does with ease on his own what four men are struggling to do. It's an interesting show of strength, and I think it's important. I think Jon's story is telling us something of Ned's past, and this strength under duress might be something Ned was capable of, just as Jon is.
Or, if not extreme strength of man, could some powerful magic bring a tor down, magic that the story hints at with the Hammer of the Water's. Could magic cause an earthquake that could move such a formation?
This rabbit hole has added a new trip destination to my list, which includes Dartmoor and Exmoor in Devonshire and Bodmin Moor in Cornwall.
I don't think this contradicts the idea you have of the tower of joy and the tower long fallen being the same thing, and I certainly don't want you to give up on this certainty that you feel, but perhaps you might have some thoughts on this idea of the tower being a tor, a natural rock formation. I know in the past voice has proposed that the tower of joy might be no more than a tower of stacked stones, perhaps a signal marker or location marker that is used as a meeting place. I have always liked that idea, but I question how the tower came to be.
Now, I personally am not sure if the tower long fallen is the tower of joy, but I have long felt like there is some connection in the north that we are missing in Ned's dream, and I have felt for a long while that the tower long fallen is in the north, at Winterfell or Moat Cailin, probably. But we also see a tower long fallen in the vale, near the Whisper's and I can't shake that from my thoughts either, since Ned spent many formative years in the vale.
Just because of the structure of the story, I suspect that the hidden backstory intersects with the horrors that are developing in the North and that Ned has been tied up in that. If that is the case, either Ned knows (in which case he would have wanted to question Gared or silence him) or Brandon and/or Lyanna knew and Ned was left out of the loop with tragic results. Surely Ned noticed what Jon noticed and it seems odd that he didn't question Gared. Or maybe he did but we haven't been told.
But Ned did question Gared, and not in any sort of secrecy.
Bran's father sat solemnly on his horse, long brown hair stirring in the wind. His closely trimmed beard was shot with white, making him look older than his thirty-five years. He had a grim cast to his grey eyes this day, and he seemed not at all the man who would sit before the fire in the evening and talk softly of the age of heroes and the children of the forest. He had taken off Father's face, Bran thought, and donned the face of Lord Stark of Winterfell.
There were questions asked and answers given there in the chill of morning, but afterward Bran could not recall much of what had been said. Finally his lord father gave a command, and two of his guardsmen dragged the ragged man to the ironwood stump in the center of the square. They forced his head down onto the hard black wood. Lord Eddard Stark dismounted and his ward Theon Greyjoy brought forth the sword. "Ice," that sword was called. It was as wide across as a man's hand, and taller even than Robb. The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.
His father peeled off his gloves and handed them to Jory Cassel, the captain of his household guard. He took hold of Ice with both hands and said, "In the name of Robert of the House Baratheon, the First of his Name, King of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm, by the word of Eddard of the House Stark, Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North, I do sentence you to die." He lifted the greatsword high above his head. AGOT-Bran I
Well, Bran tells us there were questions and answers, so I think that Ned did interrogate Gared. There was Ned, Jon, Robb and Bran all within hearing distance. And Ned is mounted so was not close or intimate distance from Gared, so this could not have been a conversation of whispers. Nothing seems to indicate subterfuge, although it's still possible. There are at least two guardsmen in hearing range, and perhaps more who heard the exchange of words. I just don't think that Gared said anything that Ned would not want heard. Ned didn't try to hide any of this from the party he rode with. It's only Bran's recollection of the words exchanged that is lacking here. And even if Ned didn't want to kill the man, he is the Lord of Winterfel, he is wearing his face and he has a duty to see to. Desertion means death, and I don't think he could have pardoned Gared if he wanted to.
This type of blindness is complicated. Yes, Ned admired Robert despite Robert being a reprehensible human being. But Ned know very well that he was always left to clean up after Robert. Ned knew Robert's flaws, but he admired his strengths, which were considerable.
But what might have been Ned's thoughts on Robert, fifteen years after the mans death, realizing that Ned had let Robert down and his children die. I think all of that affects the memory that Ned might have of Robert, and does affect the memory that Jon Con has of Rhaegar. Certainly, I might be wrong about this. I just think Rhaegar was probably as fallible as the next man, and no more a paragon than any other character in this story.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Was the tower of joy no tower at all, but a tor, a natural rock formation on a ridge?
That is an interesting thought. While I think the text is evocative of a defensible tower with stairs and rooms and arrowslits and high places that someone could leap from, it definitely doesn't tell us any of those things. And if we weren't reading fantasy, it might not be evocative of any of that. I have been attracted to voice's theory of a simple tower of rocks. But the notion of a tor is nice. I like the wordplay. And it creates some possibilities. It could be defensible in the sense that a rock outcropping in, but not as an enclosed space. On a ridge, it could be a natural landmark or meetingplace.
Now, as for Ned tearing this tower/tor down and making eight cairns along the ridge, I think certain types of tor's might be more easily destroyed, and each of these cairns might exist of no more that one large stone each.
One reason I have suspected that the tower was long-fallen at the time of the meeting is that the KG were not inside. Either voice's approach or the tor theory also explain this nicely. Of course, either way, if it is long-fallen, rocks may be broken and easier to move.
Now, as for Ned tearing this tower/tor down and making eight cairns along the ridge, I think certain types of tor's might be more easily destroyed, and each of these cairns might exist of no more that one large stone each
A tor is ordinarily going to be quite stable, but may consist of different sizes of rocks and it is easy to imagine a bit of study could reveal the instabilities
Well, Bran tells us there were questions and answers, so I think that Ned did interrogate Gared. There was Ned, Jon, Robb and Bran all within hearing distance. And Ned is mounted so was not close or intimate distance from Gared, so this could not have been a conversation of whispers. Nothing seems to indicate subterfuge, although it's still possible. There are at least two guardsmen in hearing range, and perhaps more who heard the exchange of words.
Hmm. I've read that chapter at least twice since I started developing that bit of tinfoil, but I think I'll take it off of my head and fashion it into something else now.
I might be wrong about this. I just think Rhaegar was probably as fallible as the next man, and no more a paragon than any other character in this story.
Yes, I agree. Maybe he was admirable in general, maybe not. But I'm sure he was seriously flawed in some sense.
It's always seemed odd that Ned refers to it in his memory with out capitalization. Even the nickname of a building should have capitals, I would think.
I don't think any of these theories resolve that problem. If it was a name, even a nickname of a natural formation, it should be capitalized.
That is an interesting thought. While I think the text is evocative of a defensible tower with stairs and rooms and arrowslits and high places that someone could leap from, it definitely doesn't tell us any of those things. And if we weren't reading fantasy, it might not be evocative of any of that. I have been attracted to voice's theory of a simple tower of rocks. But the notion of a tor is nice. I like the wordplay. And it creates some possibilities. It could be defensible in the sense that a rock outcropping in, but not as an enclosed space. On a ridge, it could be a natural landmark or meetingplace.
One thing that makes the imagery indicate a man made tower is the idea of "they waited before the round tower". The round tower! This hints at a man made structure, but I have seen pictures of several tor's that look quite round, based on time and erosion. Still, round towers in our story are specific, and this one might be too. Also, is this part of the dream that was "as it was in life" or is this part of the dream that is questionable. I really can't begin to say.
One reason I have suspected that the tower was long-fallen at the time of the meeting is that the KG were not inside. Either voice's approach or the tor theory also explain this nicely. Of course, either way, if it is long-fallen, rocks may be broken and easier to move.
I know it doesn't really mesh with your theory, but I really wonder if the tower long fallen is at a different location than the toj. I am sure this will remain unclear to us all until we get more books, and GRRM might still leave it quite vague and open to interpretation.
He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood. AGOT-Eddard X
She dreamt an old dream, of three girls in brown cloaks, a wattled crone, and a tent that smelled of death. AFFC-Cercei VIII
He dreamt an old dream of a hovel by the sea, three dogs whimpering, a woman's tears. ADWD-Prologue
The cadence of these three dreams is quite startlingly similar, and it must be meant to draw out attention.
We don't really know what happened in Ned's truth, but in Cersei and Varamyr's dreams, it seems like their dream harkens back to one significant memory or happening. Cersei when she visited Maggy's tent and Varamyr when his little brother was killed by a dog he warged. So, does this indicate that everything that comes in Ned's dream does happen at one location, calls back to one event? Does that mean it's near a round tower with the red mountains of Dorne in the background. I have liked to think that Ned is jumbling more than one memory in his dream, but when looking at these other dreams, it really hints that Ned's dream does indicate one past experience. And if that is the case, then the tower long fallen seems to be the tower of joy, just as you theorize. And does it also tie to Lyanna's bed of blood and three men in white cloaks and seven northern wraiths?
Hmm. I've read that chapter at least twice since I started developing that bit of tinfoil, but I think I'll take it off of my head and fashion it into something else now.
Oh, I would not let it go, but I am really stubborn. It just might mean you need to look at this interaction a bit differently. Maybe Ned doesn't give Gared time to say anything he doesn't want to be said out loud? There is something odd about the fact that Bran can't recollect what was said. It's a huge hole, looking back at the scene. The only thing that I think hints that any conversation doesn't include talk of the Other's because Jon never seems to recollect anything like that, but maybe Jon was just as inattentive as Bran is? Or perhaps something was done to wipe this from peoples memories, or make them not hear the conversation as it actually came about? As I mentioned, GRRM has purposely left us a large gap in what happened by Bran's failed recollection, and that might be very important. I really think much at the end of the story will come back to this opening Stark chapter.
I don't think any of these theories resolve that problem. If it was a name, even a nickname of a natural formation, it should be capitalized.
Maybe so. It seems very specific that GRRM left in uncapitalized, though.
A little look at capitalization grammar from scribendi.com
Use capitals for proper nouns. In other words, capitalize the names of people, specific places, and things.
For example:
We don't capitalize the word "bridge" unless it starts a sentence, but we must capitalize Brooklyn Bridge because it is the name of a specific bridge.
OR
The word "country" would not normally be capitalized, but we would have to write China with a capital "C" because it is the name of a specific country.
OR
The word "state", while not normally capitalized, would be written with a capital if it is in the name of an organization, such as The State Board of Education.
"Click" and "Clack" are capitalized because they’re nicknames—they take the place of a real name. You might say to your brother, “Boy, I’d sure like to meet Tom and Ray,” or you might say, “I’d sure like to meet Click and Clack.” The nicknames are essentially interchangeable with the real names.
Don’t Capitalize Terms of Endearment
Nicknames are different from terms of endearment, however. Terms of endearment aren’t capitalized. For example, let’s say you call your husband "honey." You might walk in the door and say “Honey, I’m home,” but you wouldn’t call your sister and say, “When I got home, honey was already making dinner. What a guy!”
A term of endearment isn’t interchangeable with a name the same way a nickname is, and terms of endearment aren’t capitalized.
So, if tower of joy is as vague as bridge, as opposed to specific as Brooklyn Bridge, we might get around using the capitals. Also, it seems, terms of endearment will not require capitals. Could the toj fit into such a category? I don't have a good answer for any of that, but I certainly think that GRRM left it uncapitalized for a reason. Perhaps it was all just an error in editing. Does anyone have an First Edition of Game? I wonder how the wording reads in that? It's probably the same, but I guess it could be a mistake, like Renly's green eyes.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
danl, stdaga, just tossing in another structure into your discussion; I don't have much else to add myself.
We do see a structure called a castle, but when seeing it has a deal lacking to live up to it's definition as a castle. Or more accurately, a waycastle:
The waycastle called Sky was no more than a high, crescent-shaped wall of unmortared stone raised against the side of the mountain, but even the topless towers of Valyria could not have looked more beautiful to Catelyn Stark. Here at last the snow crown began; Sky's weathered stones were rimed with frost, and long spears of ice hung from the slopes above.