Post by stdaga on Apr 8, 2019 20:11:32 GMT
Originally, this post was in response to a discussion on a different thread, but since my answer seemed like it was to drastic a derailment form the original intent of the thread for f(Dany), I decided to make this it's own thread... and see if it spawns some discussion. This is not entirely my own idea, but part of my thoughts combined with other theories and responses that I have read over the years. If I can find some of those past theories on the subject, I will certainly tag them in the thread.
Here it goes... beware that the pot is cracked and the tinfoil is shining like the sun!
We have two known instances in the books where one human/skinchanger either succeeds or at least tries, to take over the body of another human. We have Bran, who succeeds with Hodor and we have Varamyr who tries to with Thistle. They are slightly different cases, since Bran and Hodor are both still alive and neither is currently at risk of death, but Varamyr is dying and is trying to fulfill his second life in a human. He knows he can chose one of his wolves but he would prefer a human, even a warty old woman, as he describes Thistle.
From Varamyr, we also have the idea that when Haggon died, he tried to have a second life in his old wolf/familiar Greyskin, but Varamyr forces the old man's spirit out, denying him a second life, at least in his wolf. From Varamyr's teaching by Haggon we also hear about the things that Haggon considered an abomination. Taking the form of another human you have skinchanged seems to be one of those abominations.
When Bran first tries to jump into Hodor, it's really by accident, it's in a desperate attempt to keep Hodor quiet so the wildlings at Queen's Crown don't find them hiding. Hodor staggers, falls back, shakes his head from side to side. Bran only stays in Hodor a moment, but I wonder what would have happened if Bran had tried to push fully into Hodor and stay there? Would Hodor have fought, clawed his own eyes, scratched his face? Later, Bran seems to come into Hodor at small times, for short periods, until he extends the length of time more and more. Now, the thought is that Hodor allows this because he is somehow slow, or developmentally delayed. But what if after the initial staggering moment that frighten's both Bran and Hodor, Hodor allows it because he knows Bran. He is literally Bran's figurative legs when he carries him, now he is more.
Bran later will tell us that when he is in Hodor, he senses that Hodor is still inside, but it's like he is locked away in a safe space within his own brain. So, Hodor and Bran coexist within the same mind. Now, Bran is desperately trying to save his own life, which is at risk, so it's not quite what Varamyr attempted to do to Thistle but there are some things that seem similar.
When Varamyr tries to take Thistle, he is doing it knowing it's forever. That he will become the spearwife, or at least become part of her, the part that is in control. However, Thistle and he don't know each other well, and she has no reason to trust him, nor to want to give up her life to Varamyr. Still, Varamyr tries.
And Thistle responds with an arched back and a scream, she twists violently and she shriek's, she staggers, falls, rises back up, her arms and hands are flailing, her legs are jerking, she bites her own tongue off, she claws at her own eyes... but Varamyr loses this battle with Thistle, she dies and he is left with his spirit traveling the forest until he reaches the mind of one of his wolves, One Eye. One Eye is the oldest of his wolves, the one he had bonded with first and longest, I would imagine.
So, we get a not very pretty picture of what an attempt for a skinchanger to take a human form might look like.
Now, Bran's incident with Hodor happens in Storm, about 150 pages before the Red Wedding. We don't get the interesting information on Varamyr and Thistle until the beginning of Dance.
But the Red Wedding scene gives us some interesting information to think about. When I read the Varamyr prologue, I thought, why does that seem so familiar? I didn't make the connection to Bran/Hodor yet, but something about Thistle's behavior really rang a bell in my memory.
I know we are never in Robb's POV, and while that has always felt like a missing piece, maybe there was a reason. Anyway, we don't know for sure how deep Robb's connection with Grey Wind went, but GRRM has told us in SSM's that all the Stark children are wargs and have varying degree's of connection with their wolves. He says Sansa had the least, probably because Lady died so early in our story. There are hints that Robb did spend time in Grey Wind, when Grey Wind scouted a path near the golden tooth, when Robb sit's silent and staring, not talking or moving for what seems like hours at a time. Where was Grey Wind when this happened? Of course, with out a Robb POV, we can never know for certain, but I think that Robb was actively warging Grey Wind at some point of his life. It probably started with wolf dreams like it seems to do with Jon and Arya, but I think Robb had some control, even if he didn't really know or understand what he was doing.
Any way, Robb is shot three times with arrows at the Red Wedding, one of which was in his chest, (Stark's are hard to kill, we are told) and still he stands up, while Catelyn can hear Grey Wind howling. Or she thinks it's Grey Wind. But I wonder if the wolf was already dead at this time, and that was when Robb stood back up. Did Grey Wind die and Robb was forced back into his own dying body. Did Robb say "Grey Wind" because he knew the wolf was dead or dying? Because I would bet that Robb tried to join with Grey Wind when the attack first happened, at least when he took an arrow deep into his chest, because of instinct to survive and the ability to connect with another life form, one he probably already knew how to join with.
I think that perhaps when Robb was saying "Mother" he said, "Grey Wind..." Robb was trying to tell Cat that Grey Wind was dead. After all, she had just told him to get up, walk out, save himself, then she told him to go to his wolf. But I don't think Robb can at this point.
And we have Catelyn, who has also taken an arrow in the back, hearing "doom, boom, doom, boom, doom", which might be the sound of a drum beating, or it might be her hearing her own heart beat. Or maybe it's her hearing Robb's heart beat? If it just said boom, boom, boom, I might think it's a drum, since a drum would always sound the same, but when listening to a heart beat, there is a slight difference, in the sound of a dyastolic and systolic beat. So, boom, doom, boom, doom...
And then a man in dark armor thrust a longsword through Robb's heart and twisted... this is probably the moment that Robb Stark died, and was forced to leave his body, probably for the second time in minutes. But, if Grey Wind is dead, where does the spirit of a warg go? And I think it's almost must be an internal instinct to survive, to live on, as we see with Varamyr, when he first tries Thistle but settles for One Eye. Except, I think Robb did it in a different order, with Grey Wind first, and then the soul who he knows best that it is in the room, his own flesh and blood, his mother, who carried him in her womb and brought him forth into the world in blood and pain... Catelyn Tully Stark.
Blood and pain is a strong bond, and Catelyn was willing to die so Robb could live, she even tells Walder Frey that. A mother is willing to do a lot for her child... perhaps even let his spirit inside of her?
Catelyn seems to do the unthinkable at the time of Robb's death, she takes Aegon/Jinglebell, a halfwit Frey dressed as a jester, and she cut's his throat, with blood running hot over her fingers, his bell's were jingling, and she keeps hearing boom doom boom. And then we get a weird lapse in Cat's POV, with almost a break in thought's, then we get her being aware of tears burning like vinegar on her face, her face is being torn to shreds by her own fingernails, she can taste blood on her lips. She thinks of her children, states them all by name, Rickon, Bran, Arya, Sansa, Robb ... Robb... please. She doesn't list them in order of any sort but she thinks Robb's name last and twice. She is aware of white tears and red tears, of looking down at her own fingers and hands and wrists, covered in blood. Is it just here blood, or some of Jinglebell's blood, too. I imagine cutting a throat is messy business.
She laughs until she screams and she hears that someone has declared her "Mad" someone said, "she's lost her wit's". And then it seems like her last thought is of Ned loving her hair, indicating that Catelyn is still internally aware of who she is... and then her throat is cut and she dies.
Catelyn, laughing and screaming, crying, ripping at her own face much like Thistle jerks and screams and shrieks and tears out her own eyes and bites of her own tongue seem pretty similar behavior. We know what Varamyr was trying to do with Thistle, but what could this mean for Catelyn? Especially when there is a dying skinchanger in the room, a skinchanger that she would die for, that she carried in her womb, brought into this world in pain and blood, feed from her own breast...
I think Robb made a desperate attempt for survival and his vessel was Catelyn. Her behavior mimic's Thistle's behavior, even her almost lack of connecting with her own self at times, as if she is seeing this from outside of herself. Perhaps, that was when Robb was fighting to enter. Okay, so this is pretty cracked pot, I know. Even if Robb tried, why should we think he managed to succeed?
Varamyr is a much stronger warg than Robb was and he failed, so how could Robb Stark have succeeded? I think there are two things that helped. The first is that Robb and Catelyn have a connection that is special, a mother and child, she has always been in his life, much like Hodor has always been in Bran's life (yes, I know that Hodor did't give birth to Bran, but...) so there is every reason for Catelyn to want to let, or at least feel comfortable enough, to let Robb in. The second thing that I think worked for Robb and not for Varamyr is the fact that there was a blood sacrifice in play. When Catelyn killed Aegon/Jinglebell, she made a blood sacrifice, and I think that blood was the magic that made Robb's transformation succeed.
How do we know that Robb is in Catelyn? We don't. We never had his POV, and we don't get a POV from Stoneheart after she is revived. But she is obsessed with vengeance, with the Frey's, she seems aware of anyone who was in the room at the Red Wedding. This would be the case for Robb, too.
Now, I am honestly not sure if it's just Robb in Catelyn's remains, or Robb and Catelyn both, or actually Robb and Grey Wind and Catelyn. When Arya dreams of Catelyn's remains while she is in Nymeria, it is Nymeria's thoughts that tell us she smells something familiar. Arya/Nymeria does tell us that she thinks of her mother and she can smell her. Of course, Nymeria manages to smell Catelyn's remains after the body is dead for three days before being chucked into the river and then floating in the river for an unknown amount of time. Is Nymeria's sense of smell that good, or is there some other connection going on here? Of course, Arya is also Catelyn's child, carried in he womb, brought into the world in blood and pain, so it makes sense that Arya and Cat have a connection, even though the text never really indicates such a thing. But still they are mother and child and that is important.
But in Arya's wolf dream she thinks of her mother, then Nymeria swims out into the river and drags Catelyn to shore. But she has an interesting thought. She thinks "rise and eat and run with us", with the new pack that Nymeria has formed. Not the pack that Arya has, which is currently no pack unless you consider the Hound is part of her pack. But we have Nymeria thinking that whatever she drug from the water should rise and run and eat. I guess it could be argued that Cat is part of Arya's pack, but Grey Wind was certainly part of Nymeria's pack and Robb was certainly part of Arya's sibling pack. So, I think both Robb and Grey Wind could be alive in Stoneheart's mind!
Certainly, what is driving Stoneheart could be Catelyn's sense of vengeance alone. But at the end of Feast, when Brienne is brought before Stoneheart, she notes how the woman in grey is studying the bronze and iron crown that was Robb's, holds it, strokes it. It is Robb who has the connection with that crown, and at one point before the Red Wedding, he took his crown off, studied it, touched it, before finally putting it back on and becoming a king again. I think his action by Stoneheart, which mimic's something Robb did in the past with that very crown, could indicate that Robb is also part of what is living inside of Stoneheart.
After all, the story does tell us that Stark's are hard to kill.
Read more: thelasthearth.com/thread/572/dany?page=21#ixzz5kXJQyhtp
Here it goes... beware that the pot is cracked and the tinfoil is shining like the sun!
We have two known instances in the books where one human/skinchanger either succeeds or at least tries, to take over the body of another human. We have Bran, who succeeds with Hodor and we have Varamyr who tries to with Thistle. They are slightly different cases, since Bran and Hodor are both still alive and neither is currently at risk of death, but Varamyr is dying and is trying to fulfill his second life in a human. He knows he can chose one of his wolves but he would prefer a human, even a warty old woman, as he describes Thistle.
From Varamyr, we also have the idea that when Haggon died, he tried to have a second life in his old wolf/familiar Greyskin, but Varamyr forces the old man's spirit out, denying him a second life, at least in his wolf. From Varamyr's teaching by Haggon we also hear about the things that Haggon considered an abomination. Taking the form of another human you have skinchanged seems to be one of those abominations.
When Bran first tries to jump into Hodor, it's really by accident, it's in a desperate attempt to keep Hodor quiet so the wildlings at Queen's Crown don't find them hiding. Hodor staggers, falls back, shakes his head from side to side. Bran only stays in Hodor a moment, but I wonder what would have happened if Bran had tried to push fully into Hodor and stay there? Would Hodor have fought, clawed his own eyes, scratched his face? Later, Bran seems to come into Hodor at small times, for short periods, until he extends the length of time more and more. Now, the thought is that Hodor allows this because he is somehow slow, or developmentally delayed. But what if after the initial staggering moment that frighten's both Bran and Hodor, Hodor allows it because he knows Bran. He is literally Bran's figurative legs when he carries him, now he is more.
Bran later will tell us that when he is in Hodor, he senses that Hodor is still inside, but it's like he is locked away in a safe space within his own brain. So, Hodor and Bran coexist within the same mind. Now, Bran is desperately trying to save his own life, which is at risk, so it's not quite what Varamyr attempted to do to Thistle but there are some things that seem similar.
When Varamyr tries to take Thistle, he is doing it knowing it's forever. That he will become the spearwife, or at least become part of her, the part that is in control. However, Thistle and he don't know each other well, and she has no reason to trust him, nor to want to give up her life to Varamyr. Still, Varamyr tries.
And Thistle responds with an arched back and a scream, she twists violently and she shriek's, she staggers, falls, rises back up, her arms and hands are flailing, her legs are jerking, she bites her own tongue off, she claws at her own eyes... but Varamyr loses this battle with Thistle, she dies and he is left with his spirit traveling the forest until he reaches the mind of one of his wolves, One Eye. One Eye is the oldest of his wolves, the one he had bonded with first and longest, I would imagine.
So, we get a not very pretty picture of what an attempt for a skinchanger to take a human form might look like.
Now, Bran's incident with Hodor happens in Storm, about 150 pages before the Red Wedding. We don't get the interesting information on Varamyr and Thistle until the beginning of Dance.
But the Red Wedding scene gives us some interesting information to think about. When I read the Varamyr prologue, I thought, why does that seem so familiar? I didn't make the connection to Bran/Hodor yet, but something about Thistle's behavior really rang a bell in my memory.
I know we are never in Robb's POV, and while that has always felt like a missing piece, maybe there was a reason. Anyway, we don't know for sure how deep Robb's connection with Grey Wind went, but GRRM has told us in SSM's that all the Stark children are wargs and have varying degree's of connection with their wolves. He says Sansa had the least, probably because Lady died so early in our story. There are hints that Robb did spend time in Grey Wind, when Grey Wind scouted a path near the golden tooth, when Robb sit's silent and staring, not talking or moving for what seems like hours at a time. Where was Grey Wind when this happened? Of course, with out a Robb POV, we can never know for certain, but I think that Robb was actively warging Grey Wind at some point of his life. It probably started with wolf dreams like it seems to do with Jon and Arya, but I think Robb had some control, even if he didn't really know or understand what he was doing.
Any way, Robb is shot three times with arrows at the Red Wedding, one of which was in his chest, (Stark's are hard to kill, we are told) and still he stands up, while Catelyn can hear Grey Wind howling. Or she thinks it's Grey Wind. But I wonder if the wolf was already dead at this time, and that was when Robb stood back up. Did Grey Wind die and Robb was forced back into his own dying body. Did Robb say "Grey Wind" because he knew the wolf was dead or dying? Because I would bet that Robb tried to join with Grey Wind when the attack first happened, at least when he took an arrow deep into his chest, because of instinct to survive and the ability to connect with another life form, one he probably already knew how to join with.
I think that perhaps when Robb was saying "Mother" he said, "Grey Wind..." Robb was trying to tell Cat that Grey Wind was dead. After all, she had just told him to get up, walk out, save himself, then she told him to go to his wolf. But I don't think Robb can at this point.
And we have Catelyn, who has also taken an arrow in the back, hearing "doom, boom, doom, boom, doom", which might be the sound of a drum beating, or it might be her hearing her own heart beat. Or maybe it's her hearing Robb's heart beat? If it just said boom, boom, boom, I might think it's a drum, since a drum would always sound the same, but when listening to a heart beat, there is a slight difference, in the sound of a dyastolic and systolic beat. So, boom, doom, boom, doom...
And then a man in dark armor thrust a longsword through Robb's heart and twisted... this is probably the moment that Robb Stark died, and was forced to leave his body, probably for the second time in minutes. But, if Grey Wind is dead, where does the spirit of a warg go? And I think it's almost must be an internal instinct to survive, to live on, as we see with Varamyr, when he first tries Thistle but settles for One Eye. Except, I think Robb did it in a different order, with Grey Wind first, and then the soul who he knows best that it is in the room, his own flesh and blood, his mother, who carried him in her womb and brought him forth into the world in blood and pain... Catelyn Tully Stark.
Blood and pain is a strong bond, and Catelyn was willing to die so Robb could live, she even tells Walder Frey that. A mother is willing to do a lot for her child... perhaps even let his spirit inside of her?
Catelyn seems to do the unthinkable at the time of Robb's death, she takes Aegon/Jinglebell, a halfwit Frey dressed as a jester, and she cut's his throat, with blood running hot over her fingers, his bell's were jingling, and she keeps hearing boom doom boom. And then we get a weird lapse in Cat's POV, with almost a break in thought's, then we get her being aware of tears burning like vinegar on her face, her face is being torn to shreds by her own fingernails, she can taste blood on her lips. She thinks of her children, states them all by name, Rickon, Bran, Arya, Sansa, Robb ... Robb... please. She doesn't list them in order of any sort but she thinks Robb's name last and twice. She is aware of white tears and red tears, of looking down at her own fingers and hands and wrists, covered in blood. Is it just here blood, or some of Jinglebell's blood, too. I imagine cutting a throat is messy business.
She laughs until she screams and she hears that someone has declared her "Mad" someone said, "she's lost her wit's". And then it seems like her last thought is of Ned loving her hair, indicating that Catelyn is still internally aware of who she is... and then her throat is cut and she dies.
Catelyn, laughing and screaming, crying, ripping at her own face much like Thistle jerks and screams and shrieks and tears out her own eyes and bites of her own tongue seem pretty similar behavior. We know what Varamyr was trying to do with Thistle, but what could this mean for Catelyn? Especially when there is a dying skinchanger in the room, a skinchanger that she would die for, that she carried in her womb, brought into this world in pain and blood, feed from her own breast...
I think Robb made a desperate attempt for survival and his vessel was Catelyn. Her behavior mimic's Thistle's behavior, even her almost lack of connecting with her own self at times, as if she is seeing this from outside of herself. Perhaps, that was when Robb was fighting to enter. Okay, so this is pretty cracked pot, I know. Even if Robb tried, why should we think he managed to succeed?
Varamyr is a much stronger warg than Robb was and he failed, so how could Robb Stark have succeeded? I think there are two things that helped. The first is that Robb and Catelyn have a connection that is special, a mother and child, she has always been in his life, much like Hodor has always been in Bran's life (yes, I know that Hodor did't give birth to Bran, but...) so there is every reason for Catelyn to want to let, or at least feel comfortable enough, to let Robb in. The second thing that I think worked for Robb and not for Varamyr is the fact that there was a blood sacrifice in play. When Catelyn killed Aegon/Jinglebell, she made a blood sacrifice, and I think that blood was the magic that made Robb's transformation succeed.
How do we know that Robb is in Catelyn? We don't. We never had his POV, and we don't get a POV from Stoneheart after she is revived. But she is obsessed with vengeance, with the Frey's, she seems aware of anyone who was in the room at the Red Wedding. This would be the case for Robb, too.
Now, I am honestly not sure if it's just Robb in Catelyn's remains, or Robb and Catelyn both, or actually Robb and Grey Wind and Catelyn. When Arya dreams of Catelyn's remains while she is in Nymeria, it is Nymeria's thoughts that tell us she smells something familiar. Arya/Nymeria does tell us that she thinks of her mother and she can smell her. Of course, Nymeria manages to smell Catelyn's remains after the body is dead for three days before being chucked into the river and then floating in the river for an unknown amount of time. Is Nymeria's sense of smell that good, or is there some other connection going on here? Of course, Arya is also Catelyn's child, carried in he womb, brought into the world in blood and pain, so it makes sense that Arya and Cat have a connection, even though the text never really indicates such a thing. But still they are mother and child and that is important.
But in Arya's wolf dream she thinks of her mother, then Nymeria swims out into the river and drags Catelyn to shore. But she has an interesting thought. She thinks "rise and eat and run with us", with the new pack that Nymeria has formed. Not the pack that Arya has, which is currently no pack unless you consider the Hound is part of her pack. But we have Nymeria thinking that whatever she drug from the water should rise and run and eat. I guess it could be argued that Cat is part of Arya's pack, but Grey Wind was certainly part of Nymeria's pack and Robb was certainly part of Arya's sibling pack. So, I think both Robb and Grey Wind could be alive in Stoneheart's mind!
Certainly, what is driving Stoneheart could be Catelyn's sense of vengeance alone. But at the end of Feast, when Brienne is brought before Stoneheart, she notes how the woman in grey is studying the bronze and iron crown that was Robb's, holds it, strokes it. It is Robb who has the connection with that crown, and at one point before the Red Wedding, he took his crown off, studied it, touched it, before finally putting it back on and becoming a king again. I think his action by Stoneheart, which mimic's something Robb did in the past with that very crown, could indicate that Robb is also part of what is living inside of Stoneheart.
After all, the story does tell us that Stark's are hard to kill.
Read more: thelasthearth.com/thread/572/dany?page=21#ixzz5kXJQyhtp