Post by stdaga on Dec 23, 2019 17:03:03 GMT
I would agree that the mentions of such people as Allyria Dayne probably should not amount to be much, but they are named, and their must be a reason. I feel like there might be even vaguer, less mentioned people who are important, like the unnamed Dayne Lord who must be Edric Dayne's father or even the fact that Lyarra Stark never even get's a mention in the storyline. I would think Ned's mother deserves a mention?
But as to such character's being enough to bend the storyline in unseen ways, I do agree that might feel like a cheat of some sort.
I did come across an idea years ago, and I doubt I could find it again, that Dany was actually a Stark bastard, although her parentage was unclear (Ned, Lyanna and Brandon were all options), and she was intended to be held by the Mormont's on Bear Island for her safety. But that she was part of the slave swap mess that Jorah was involved with. And Ned's anger towards Jorah then makes some sense, as Jorah would have defiled a trust between the Stark's and Mormont's. And that Jorah's actions in Essos have all been to find that child again, which makes his interest in Dany make a bit more sense. However, this involves quite a few jumps and speculations. It is some way is tied to Dany's memories of animal carvings on the ceiling of a house she used to live in, but there is nothing in that to really tie directly to Bear Island.
Dany would make sense as Rhaegar and Lyanna's child. She has dragon and wolf imagery (although she has quite a bit of other imagery as well, such as lion and star). If Jon turns out to be the son of Robert, I would not be surprised but he has to be a child of Lyanna's then, which means she would have had two children by different men in a short period of time, if Jon and Dany truly are only 8 or 9 months apart.
Now, could Dany and Jon have been the swapped children? If so, I think they both have some Stark blood, so what would be the reason to swap them? It only makes sense if Ned is not involved in this swap, but that it was done without his knowledge. But Jon's storyline almost hints that Ned (as Jon's stand in) was responsible for some baby swap. And since Jon's swap doesn't involve a child of his own blood, then Ned's would not either. Unless it's an inversion, I guess, but that makes things trickier.
There actually is quite a lot that could indicate that Dany has indeed been feed a false memory and now believes it to be true. And that Quaithe is trying to remind her of the truth, all the "remember who you are" stuff. Sometimes Sansa is slipping quite strongly into her Alayne Stone character that Sansa is almost a dream for her. And Arya slips into her different character's pretty deeply as well, although she always retains that part of Arya that she cannot seem to let go of. Now, Arya might be held easier to herself because she still has her Nymeria ties, while Sansa is more easily lost as she is adrift without her direwolf.
But Dany is reminded by Quaithe and Jorah in dreams that the "dragon's" know who Dany is. Is this the literal dragons she hatched or something else?
I've read theories about Jon's origins with interest, but haven't really found any to be satisfying at all. And I really don't expect that can be one that I will find satisfying. But my imagination is limited and I am open to being pleasantly surprised.
But I think one of the archetypes that GRRM is playing with is the person cut loose from roots. One version of that is the person of limited pedigree who rises based on skill or cunning (Jon, Littlefinger). The person with significant pedigree who is cut away from that is another version of the same basic idea (Sansa, Arya, Theon, Jayne).
I am not sure that cutting all ties to his roots will make Jon happy, in the sense of a happy ending. He wants to be a Stark and he clings to his dreams and memories of Winterfell, although many of his dreams tie to the crypts, a place of the dead, some of his dreams tie to the godswood and Winterfell above the ground, a place of life. But he could have this without really ever knowing who is mother is as long as he believes he is the son of Ned Stark. Now, if that knowledge is take from him, then I think Jon could slip badly. He would be cut adrift from what little he knows, and that I think would lead to a darkness in Jon. I think a Jon without ties could be a sad and dangerous man.
Some people might push away from their root's, such as Littlefinger, who almost belittles his own family origin's, but I am not sure how well that is going to work for Littlefinger by the end of this story. I would kind of like for him to end up in is tower keep tripping over sheep shit, but that's just how I feel about him in general. Not to take away anything from his intelligence and what he has accomplished.
A person who I do see cut away from their root is Jorah Mormont, and by gosh he is floundering around and making a damn mess of his life. Right now he is a slave tattooed man who might no longer be a slave but is barely clinging to life as a sellsword who is just attempting to get closer to Dany again. Jorah is a mess, a drift from his family and home, and this hasn't been great for him so far. However, his story is not ended so there might still be hope for him to arise from the ashes of his choices.
I think that that this would be the type of thing that GRRM would push against. After all, he is famous for asking what Aragorn's tax policy was, although the world of Lord of the Rings and the devastation of Sauron doesn't really care about taxes. That world cared about ending an evil darkness.
I don't see Jon doing this at all, even if he turns out to be Rhaegar's son. There is no proof of that, even if he manages to wrangle a dragon at some point. I do think that in a sad turn of events, if Jon get's stuck with rule and Kings Landing, that he would be even sadder than he would be on the wall for the rest of his life. A bleak existence...
However, GRRM is kind of giving us this option while we watch what Young Griff is trying to accomplish. And by gosh, that city might open their gates to him if he continues building power. Even if his claim might not be believed by everyone, it might be enough to get him the throne he is angling for. And then where does that leave Dany, who wants this very thing for herself. Of course, she has been dawdling in Meereen... It seems to me that currently Dany and Young Griff might be on a collision course, and it could mean a mess of a war in the south. Dany seems to leave destruction in her path, even if that is not what she has intended.
Unless his ties are to Winterfell, I don't see that either. I think in the past there could be hints that Stark bastards have been placed in charge of Winterfell and given the job of continuing the Stark line. Edrick Snowbeard Stark is one person I speculate that this happened too. And he supposedly ruled for a 100 years. Jon's biggest conflict currently is his vow to the Night's Watch.
As to what Augustus did with Rome after he made himself emperor, I think if he would have had a son by blood, he probably would have groomed him to follow his rule. He only had a daughter, however, and then adopted her step-son to become his heir. There is still some family ties, even if it wasn't direct blood and it kept the power into the hands of a very few elite Romans. Nepotism at it's finest. Then after this, I think the adoptive history continued in Roman, with Tiberius adopting Caligula (his grandson or nephew, I think), and Caligula being murdered and his uncle being named Emperor. Man, those Roman's were an intriguing bunch of people.
Well, one reason to marry brothers and sister's is to keep the amount of heirs down to a reasonable number, it keeps other families for vying for the throne (I am looking at you Alicent Hightower) or even the Arryn line, whom the Targaryen's married into. It does seem like they were able to marry Velaryon's without that family vying for the throne. Still, if you can only marry siblings to siblings, and you have enough siblings to keep accomplishing this through the generations, it does keep all the money and power squarely in one house. Now, perhaps that is exactly why the Faith tried so hard to make sure those marriages didn't happen, so no family could be as strong as them. This is quite like what we see in our own world history and Europe, with the fight over the church to remain stronger than any individual family or king.
And how did this idea of polygamy get started in Valyria anyway? I think it came from the idea's of either Asshai or the Great Empire of the Dawn. I think the GEotD does have some shouts out to polygamy, as the God-on-Earth is said to have had a 100 queens. As to Asshai, I don't think we know, but I would suspect polygamy of them, too. And dragons are tied to Asshai while they are not tied to the GEofD, as far as I can tell.
I can see either explanation working for Ned's memory loss at this time, although the idea of magic at play is much more intriguing.
If we do see Dawn, it better be great. Otherwise, I don't think we will ever see it and it's all been a red herring to distract us. And it has worked.
I would say that Jon's attack on Thorne is more clearly rage directing it, and while he doesn't black out entirely, he is only partially aware of his surroundings. His reaction is immediate and his intent is clear. In the blink of an eye he has grabbed a dagger and is sprinting at Thorne. The drowning of the enviornment could just be adrenaline. As to the situation with Iron Emmett, Jon's mind is completely thinking of other thoughts while he is battling Emmett, and his focus is on those thoughts, not his sword play. So, that's not a clear black out either. Jon's thoughts were just tied to the past during that episode.
As to Jon's skill when he fights Iron Emmett, I don't know if this is out of Jon's range as a warrior. The text tells us the two men have sparred before and most times Jon felt like he gave as good as he got. Emmett also lands a hard blow to Jon's head, which is when Jon's thoughts shift back to Winterfell. I'm not sure if that is how a skin-changing episode would work, but perhaps.
Well, GRRM went out of his way in Bran's memory to place this line within quotes, so it's probably best to go with the idea that it was directly the words that came out of Ned's mouth.
Oh, I have thought about these broken swords for years. I have thought that Ice will be reforged but for some reason need a new hilt. We certainly have a hilt that has popped up into out story, I think first in the prologue as part of Waymar Royce's sword, and I think that same sword hilt get's given to Jon as part of the wilding booty when they cross the wall. Jon makes note of it and I think it's Waymar's hilt. Now, this could just be an easter egg on GRRM's part, or that hilt will pop up again. I used to think it might somehow be placed on a reforged Ice, but it could work as a hilt for Dawn as well. There is also the hilt that is on Longclaw, but I can only see that coming into play if the sword is for Jon to wield AND something happens to Longclaw. On it's own, it is already a fine sword that Jon wields.
As to Ice, it is most certainly "broken" if only because it was destroyed and we see parts of it still in the story as Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail. If it's Dawn that is broken, which is more speculation on my part than anything, than what kind of smith does it take to rework a weapon such as Dawn? We don't even really know what the metal is made of, so how can it even be worked? And would it need a new hilt? I would think that Ice would, since we have no mention of Ice's hilt after Tywin had the sword destroyed. Could that pop into the story at some point? Maybe so. As a Lannister prize? Or as a cast off bit of metal in an ally in Kings Landing? Or something that Tobho Mott would have kept a hold of?
There is also the idea that Ice that we see early in the story isn't the original Stark sword Ice, and perhaps it's the namesake sword that is important and lies broken and in need of reforging. Is that what calls to Jon from the crypts?
We do get this story of the sword match with SAD and the Smiling Knight for a reason. It has always made me think that SAD was arrogant and a bit of an ass, but this could be peppered with Jaime perspective in the story, and Jaime is both arrogant and kind of an ass. But SAD does let the man get a new sword. So, could Arthur have done this with Ned? I think so. But would Ned have chosen to wield Ice in such a situation? I think that's possible too, if he had it available. The question is, was the sword available. I have always imagined that Rickard took it to Kings Landing and it remained there until the city was liberated. Ned could have got it back at this time and marched south to finish the war with it. But just because he had it doesn't mean he felt like he could use it until something happened to change his mind.
I think that Ned with Ice and SAD with Dawn clashed and it was somewhat reminiscent of what we see in the prologue, with one sword destroyed. But I don't see that Ned would let his men just willy nilly stab the Sword of the Morning to death. I think he could have exiled SAD and returned the pieces of Dawn to Starfall. And then he chucked Ashara out of a tower, but that's a different wild speculation of mine!
”Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.
On the contrary, the KG are not rugged individualists. Their knees bend before the king, when they take their vows and thereafter. If SAD is truly saying, "OUR knees to not bend easily." then he is saying they are no longer KG. If they are no longer kneelers, then they are individualists (unlikely), Free Folk (possible, or at least intended), or something related to the Free Folk.
This idea of knee's not bending does lead us to think of the wildlings. But eventually their knee's bend quite well, even if they grumble. And the Thenn's seem to have no problem with this knee bending, although they are probably the tribe that is most like the people of Westeros who live south of the wall. It could also mean they chose who they bend the knee to, and they are not bending the knee to Robert Baratheon, which is perhaps what Ned wanted and expected them to do. Which comes up in the fever dream as well, with nods to Lords Tyrell and Redwyne and all their knights who bent the knee to Ned in place of Robert.
”But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”
”Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.
”Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.
”We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.
Not SAD here, but interesting. What vow is he referring to. Probably not the KG vow. They king is dead, so they may be released from that vow. Under that vow, they should have died protecting the king, died in RR, or sailed with the heir.
This idea of not fleeing is also interesting. Fleeing from what? Of course this could mean they are not fleeing from what ever they are perhaps guarding in the toj. If they are referring to guarding Aerys, then yes he is dead, but he left Rhaegar and his children as possible heirs, as well as Viserys. And if it was known that Rhaella was expecting, then it could mean her, as well. I would actually love it if Rhaella was in the tower and it's her child who was being born. Rhaella had just as much claim to the throne as Aerys, they were full-siblings, and perhaps the kingsguard are deciding to protect their Queen. This could be a bit of parallel to the Dance of the Dragons, where the kingsguard where split and some supported Rhaenyra and some supported Aegon II.
It almost makes sense to me that when Rhaella and Viserys left Kings Landing they did not actually go to Dragonstone. While it might be safe for a awhile, eventually it could be surrounded and attacked. But if you tell everyone you are going one direction to an expected location, then go another direction to another unexpected location, that might keep you from being found. That's what Cat did when she kidnapped Tyrion.
To make that a bit more clear, Ned's queries point out what the KG should have been doing if they were operating under their KG vows:
”I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.
. . .
”When King’s Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”
. . .
”I came down to Storm’s End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, “.... I was certain you would be among them.”
. . .
”Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”
. . .
”When King’s Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”
. . .
”I came down to Storm’s End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, “.... I was certain you would be among them.”
. . .
”Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”
Ned is pointing out that the KG weren't protecting the king, weren't protecting either heir, and weren't fighting the king's battles. He is telling them (albeit indirectly) that he knows they have priorities above KG vows. Since he sought them out and knew where to find them, he probably knew what those priorities are.
I can't really take it beyond that. But I do like the idea that SAD, and maybe all of the KG, walked away and that there was a common plan with Ned or at least a plan that Ned was aware of.
I do like the idea of one vow that trumps all the others. So, what vow could they have taken that is more important than their kingsguard vow. Is it a basic knighthood vow? That seems to be what tears at Jaime, and he is a parallel to learn from when dissecting the kingsguard.
As far as all the kingsguard walking away, I just don't know. We do have eight cairns, which indicates eight bodies. Now, the cairns don't need to be covering a body but the numbers seem to represent something. And if it's a secret location, then why a false cairn/grave? Not that the toj is supposed to be a secret location, but it's been kept secret from the reader for a long time. Seeing a dot on a map is not the same as actually being introduced to a location in the text. I have a hard time thinking that all three lived. I have wondered if Ned and SAD killed their own brother's in arms to hid a secret, one that Howland was part of planning. This could be why SAD is sad in memories and dreams and why Ned seems sad when remembering it, and Ned thinks that Howland saved his life. A betrayal of supporters is a terrible thing to do. Then, what was the reason for such an action? Was it to protect or hide what was happening in the tower?
I finally was enjoying them, but never got back to reading them. And I live 300 miles from the friend I was borrowing them from, which made it difficult also. Still, there is the library and I could have used it. I might get back to it some day. It's on the back burner and I have many other things I will probably read first. Like Dune! And I'm going to keep plugging away at the Wheel of Time.
I don't think it's a slur, and I do think it's important. And I think it ties to Westeros, to the Stormlands. Dany was either born in the Stormlands or her parentage is tied to the Stormlands. Or it ties to the idea of the storm god. Dany does say she likes to sail and is comfortable on the ocean, so that might be a hint about her past, as well.
We even have the idea in the title of A Storm of Swords that GRRM could well be messing with the use of this word. Is Dany a product of a previous war? A previous storm of swords? She is war-born, storm-born, sword-born? There is something strong willed in her character that does not back down from war and confrontation.