As to Benjen, his age has come up before as too young to be the Knight of the Laughing Tree, but he does seem to be only a year or so younger than Lyanna. If a girl of fourteen can joust against three grown men then why not a boy of thirteen-twelve? Especially when the boy would grow up in the practice yard. Just sayin.
It really depends how Benjen was physically. A girl at 14 is farther developed than a boy at 13. A boy at 13, typically is all hands and feet larger than the rest of his body--even if he's been athletic. A girl at 14 however is at least more fully developed physically at that point in her life (comparatively speaking).
But for all we know Benjen could have been an early bloomer... though if we were to judge by Robb's puberty and Jon's puberty... it seems 14 to 15 is typical for Stark boys to begin undergoing the larger changes of puberty, and even then 15 to 16 still has more to add to that (Jon at the beginning of ACOK had to carry Longclaw on his back because he was still too short to have it hang from his waist).
Well if Jon and Robb were old enough to make snow traps, I imagine Ben would've been gone by then, but yes, the timeline isn't expressly mentioned that I know- except that if Ben was still at WF, he'd have met Mance on this visit, too.
Agreed. I didn't mean to imply that Benjen waited until Mance showed up to leave, merely a reminder that the precise time of his leaving is unknown thus far.
Agreed. I didn't mean to imply that Benjen waited until Mance showed up to leave, merely a reminder that the precise time of his leaving is unknown thus far.
And I'm sure that was set up like that deliberately. I hope we learn the back story, seems like such a weird decision to take off and join the NW. Mark and I discussed it because there was a shortage of Stark men, he already served as lord of WF during the rebellion, and it was too soon to know if Ned's heir would grow into adulthood.
plus, they just lost their family, an emotional time for them to separate.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Agreed. I didn't mean to imply that Benjen waited until Mance showed up to leave, merely a reminder that the precise time of his leaving is unknown thus far.
And I'm sure that was set up like that deliberately. I hope we learn the back story, seems like such a weird decision to take off and join the NW. Mark and I discussed it because there was a shortage of Stark men, he already served as lord of WF during the rebellion, and it was too soon to know if Ned's heir would grow into adulthood.
plus, they just lost their family, an emotional time for them to separate.
Agreed. Dynastic logic would dictate that Benjen should stick around to found a cadet branch of Starks simply to keep the name alive.
The only hint we get at is that there was a Black Brother at Harrenhal preaching about the honor of serving the Night's Watch, which the Pup took interest in.
I just noticed that when Dany enters the HotU, the door is oval shaped and looks like a FACE. Huh? What? Where did that come from? Just like the weirwood gate at the Nightfort…
OOH! I'd completely forgotten that. Now have my brain looping re: tie-ins to Arya in the House of Black and White and the Hall of Faces. The faces known to be in the weir woods Bran is seeing his visions through. Throw in the white (weirwood) door and the black (black-barked trees of the Undying) door at the House of Black and White--they really are connected. And not just in my head.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Especially when the boy would grow up in the practice yard. Just sayin.
And what are some of the first things that happen in the yard?
Long before the first pale fingers of light pried apart Bran's shutters, his eyes were open. There were guests in Winterfell, visitors come for the harvest feast. This morning they would be tilting at quintains in the yard. Once that prospect would have filled him with excitement, but that was before. Not now. The Walders would break lances with the squires of Lord Manderly's escort, but Bran would have no part of it. He must play the prince in his father's solar. "Listen, and it may be that you will learn something of what lordship is all about," Maester Luwin had said.
8 year old Walders will be jousting first thing in the morning. With who?
The White Harbor lordlings would emerge later in the morning, with their knights and men-at-arms. Until then, the yard belonged to their squires, who ranged in age from ten to forty. Bran wished he were one of them so badly that his stomach hurt with the wanting.
Boys as young as 10. Then the lordlings and knights and men-at-arms come out later in the morning.
And are the 8 year old Walders any good?
Their dappled grey coursers were swift, strong, and beautifully trained. Side by side they charged the quintains. Both hit the shields cleanly and were well past before the padded butts came spinning around. Little Walder struck the harder blow, but Bran thought Big Walder sat his horse better. He would have given both his useless legs for the chance to ride against either.
Yup. They can hit their targets clean, and ride fast enough that the quintain doesn't strike them. Already Little Walder strikes hard, and Big Walder sits his horse well. How hard does Little Walder hit at 8?
Little Walder cast his splintered lance aside, spied Bran, and reined up. "Now there's an ugly horse," he said of Hodor.
But how do we compare these 8 year olds hitting quintains with full grown knights?
As Jaime trotted through the castle gates, he came upon two dozen knights riding at a quintain in the outer yard. Something else I can no longer do, he thought. A lance was heavier and more cumbersome than a sword, and swords were proving trial enough. He supposed he might try holding the lance with his left hand, but that would mean shifting his shield to his right arm. In a tilt, a man's foe was always to the left. A shield on his right arm would prove about as useful as nipples on his breastplate. No, my jousting days are done, he thought as he dismounted . . . but all the same, he stopped to watch awhile. Ser Tallad the Tall lost his mount when the sandbag came around and thumped him in the head. Strongboar struck the shield so hard he cracked it. Kennos of Kayce finished the destruction. A new shield was hung for Ser Dermot of the Rainwood. Lambert Turnberry only struck a glancing blow, but Beardless Jon Bettley, Humfrey Swyft, and Alyn Stackspear all scored solid hits, and Red Ronnet Connington broke his lance clean. Then the Knight of Flowers mounted up and put the others all to shame.
Ser Tallad the Tall is worse than them as he can't ride past a quintain without being hit. Lambert Turnberry is worse than them as he can only hit a glancing blow. Jon Bettley, Humfrey Swyft, Alyn Stackspear are their equals as they can hit the target well. Red Ronnet hits as hard as Little Walder as he also breaks his lance. Only Strongboar, Kennos of Kayce and Loras Tyrell are specifically noted as doing anything the 8 year old Freys can't.
But do the Starks ever practice at quintain and jousting?
"Harwin?" Arya whispered. It was! Under the beard and the tangled hair was the face of Hullen's son, who used to lead her pony around the yard, ride at quintain with Jon and Robb, and drink too much on feast days. He was thinner, harder somehow, and at Winterfell he had never worn a beard, but it was him—her father's man. "Harwin!" Squirming, she threw herself forward, trying to wrench free of Lem's iron grip. "It's me," she shouted, "Harwin, it's me, don't you know me, don't you?" The tears came, and she found herself weeping like a baby, just like some stupid little girl. "Harwin, it's me!"
Robb and Jon both rode at quintain when they were growing up.
Jon swelled with pride. "Robb is a stronger lance than I am, but I'm the better sword, and Hullen says I sit a horse as well as anyone in the castle."
And they did it often enough for Jon to know that Robb was better than him. So Starks practice jousting.
Now that's not to say Benjen was some prodigy or anything and could have just cantered onto the lists defeating people left and right. But the Walders show that 8 years old can joust at quintain better than full grown knights, and Robb and Jon show that the Starks do practice jousting. So Benjen would have had practice jousting, and there's the possibility that at 13 years old he could be defeated full grown knights given that he's 5 years older than the Walders.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
He goes on further to say that until Jon loses his virginity, he will never know what the oath costs. That sounds like he's talking from experience, so unless Benjen was getting some while he was the Stark in Winterfell, it means he was older and had experience when he joined.
I always hoped we'd stumble onto some bastard of Benjen later after that conversation. I think GRRM said there were none (?) but it would be cool if he changed his mind. Or we found some Brandon bastards. Or not, I guess we have a lot of characters that already need wrapping up.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
I thought that someone over on the W pointed out that Lady Dustin's guardsman, the one that goes down into the crypts with her and Theon was her bastard son with Brandon. Can't remember his name or the evidence for it but it seemed convincing.
Rlly?! I thought GRRM said Brandon left no bastard sons? And I didn't think he left her w/a bastard- that would make him heir to WF if he was legitimized!
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
GRRM said that because Benjen joined the Night's Watch he has no descendants. Which isn't really an answer as to whether or not Benjen had any kids as he obviously could have had kids prior to joining the Night's Watch given that he was like 16 when he joined and he's plenty capable of fathering children by that age
GRRM said that Brandon died before he had sons. Which leaves open that his sons were born after his death, or that he had daughters. But he also clarified that whether Brandon had children or not they most definitely were not trueborn.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
I gave Brandon my favor to wear, and never comforted Petyr once after he was wounded, nor bid him farewell when Father sent him off. And when Brandon was murdered and Father told me I must wed his brother, I did so gladly, though I never saw Ned's face until our wedding day. I gave my maidenhood to this solemn stranger and sent him off to his war and his king and the woman who bore him his bastard, because I always did my duty.
I believe there's a Citadel entry floating around where GRRM told Ran that Robert only decided to press his claim to the throne around the time of the Trident. Cat's likely just speaking in hindsight, but this would push Robert's decision to become king back to just after the Battle of the Bells if she's not.
Also, this means that Robert didn't attend Ned's wedding. Wasn't a wedding for pleasure, but it sealed a key alliance for Robert as it gave him the Riverlands. But that aside, Ned, his foster brother, and Jon, his foster father, both got married here yet Robert wasn't in attendance. Which kinda makes you wonder where Robert was and what was so important that made him miss the marriages of two of the most important people in his life, and the marriages that sealed the support of 1/7 of Westoros with his cause
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
I gave Brandon my favor to wear, and never comforted Petyr once after he was wounded, nor bid him farewell when Father sent him off. And when Brandon was murdered and Father told me I must wed his brother, I did so gladly, though I never saw Ned's face until our wedding day. I gave my maidenhood to this solemn stranger and sent him off to his war and his king and the woman who bore him his bastard, because I always did my duty.
I believe there's a Citadel entry floating around where GRRM told Ran that Robert only decided to press his claim to the throne around the time of the Trident. Cat's likely just speaking in hindsight, but this would push Robert's decision to become king back to just after the Battle of the Bells if she's not.
Also, this means that Robert didn't attend Ned's wedding. Wasn't a wedding for pleasure, but it sealed a key alliance for Robert as it gave him the Riverlands. But that aside, Ned, his foster brother, and Jon, his foster father, both got married here yet Robert wasn't in attendance. Which kinda makes you wonder where Robert was and what was so important that made him miss the marriages of two of the most important people in his life, and the marriages that sealed the support of 1/7 of Westoros with his cause
Serious thought: Chatting up with Tywin Lannister (Planning of Tywin's betrayal of Aerys). Less serious thought: fathering more bastards.
I gave Brandon my favor to wear, and never comforted Petyr once after he was wounded, nor bid him farewell when Father sent him off. And when Brandon was murdered and Father told me I must wed his brother, I did so gladly, though I never saw Ned's face until our wedding day. I gave my maidenhood to this solemn stranger and sent him off to his war and his king and the woman who bore him his bastard, because I always did my duty.
I believe there's a Citadel entry floating around where GRRM told Ran that Robert only decided to press his claim to the throne around the time of the Trident. Cat's likely just speaking in hindsight, but this would push Robert's decision to become king back to just after the Battle of the Bells if she's not.
Also, this means that Robert didn't attend Ned's wedding. Wasn't a wedding for pleasure, but it sealed a key alliance for Robert as it gave him the Riverlands. But that aside, Ned, his foster brother, and Jon, his foster father, both got married here yet Robert wasn't in attendance. Which kinda makes you wonder where Robert was and what was so important that made him miss the marriages of two of the most important people in his life, and the marriages that sealed the support of 1/7 of Westoros with his cause
I don't know, Mark, but I'd love to watch you interview GRRM. He might not know half the questions you pose for him! Maybe you should join live journal and ask him stuff. I'd like to know this answer.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Serious thought: Chatting up with Tywin Lannister (Planning of Tywin's betrayal of Aerys).
That makes sense, logistically. It's weird he wouldn't be with the others. I'm guessing you are right, making plans for battle. What more of an excuse could he have for missing his best friend & foster dad's wedding? Especially since he lost his actual parents
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
The Shieldhall was one of the older parts of Castle Black, a long drafty feast hall of dark stone, its oaken rafters black with the smoke of centuries. Back when the Night's Watch had been much larger, its walls had been hung with rows of brightly colored wooden shields. Then as now, when a knight took the black, tradition decreed that he set aside his former arms and take up the plain black shield of the brotherhood. The shields thus discarded would hang in the Shieldhall. Hundreds of knights meant hundreds of shields. Hawks and eagles, dragons and griffins, suns and stags, wolves and wyverns, manticores, bulls, trees and flowers, harps, spears, crabs and krakens, red lions and golden lions and chequy lions, owls, lambs, maids and mermen, stallions, stars, buckets and buckles, flayed men and hanged men and burning men, axes, longswords, turtles, unicorns, bears, quills, spiders and snakes and scorpions, and a hundred other heraldic charges had adorned the Shieldhall walls, blazoned in more colors than any rainbow ever dreamed of.
GRRM mentions that there were Targaryen knights who joined the Night's Watch by saying that dragon shields had adorned Shieldhall. But the only Targaryen knight who fits is Bloodraven
Ser Brynden Rivers set sail for the Wall late in the year of 233 AC.
Bloodraven was indeed a knight so he'd have had to have hung his shield up in Shieldhall. But that only fulfills one dragon who joined the Night's Watch, when GRRM says "dragons" not "dragon". We're still missing some Targaryens. And more importantly, I don't think that Bloodraven is the Targaryen GRRM is talking about at all, because if you notice I also bolded the different lions who joined the Night's Watch.
red lions and golden lions and chequy lions
Red lions are Reynes, golden lions Lannisters, and chequy lions Osgreys. GRRM differentiated the different lions into recognizably different houses. He did not do this with the dragons which implies to me that he only meant House Targaryen. Yet Bloodraven did not have the Targaryen sigil. His was a black and white dragon. His would be a dragon yes, but I don't GRRM meant Bloodraven when he wrote dragon.
The only Targaryen we know who joined the Night's Watch is Maester Aemon. But there's a few problems with him having been the possessor of the Targaryen shield. He was a maester. Maesters don't have families, ranks, titles, lands, honours, etc. Aemon joined the Watch when he was a full fledged maester so he wouldn't have been a knight as he'd have had to give that up if he had been and he'd have already given up his Targaryen heritage. He wouldn't have had either a shield or a sigil. So he doesn't fit.
So I guess this is just a long winded way of saying some Targaryen knight joined the Night's Watch but I can't think of who
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
I think it's odd that during the Sansa-Willas plot, it's revealed that Willas Tyrell is twice her age, the heir of Highgarden, but still isn't betrothed. Lame or not, next in line to be not just the lord of his house, but warden of the south. Plus, they're rich. Also, speaking of wardens of the south, I'm assuming it was Highgarden because Dorne remained independent for so long- I'm guessing Dorne is going to secede again before the dealing's done.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones