Post by stdaga on Mar 29, 2018 19:32:56 GMT
I have had no internet for a week, and honestly, I don't have the patience to post on my phone. Sorry about the delay in response.
Yes, we see it in that story of Brandon, and we see it with Jon. We also see it with Robb and even with Ned, and his "red rage". Even Sansa has a temper and at times, when she isn't so guarded, she let's her words fly like arrow's, usually right at Joffrey!
She is really a wild card. My only real hangup with her being the next SOTM is that I'm not sure how we would learn that she is a Dayne. She is highborn, so her parents are not in question, which means if there is enough Dayne blood in her family to qualify then that should already be known (at least to the Daynes and Tarths, if not readers). Also she already has a magic sword in Othkeeper/Ice. But hey, if it turns out to be her, I wouldn't complain! She is certainly worthy, no doubt.We have no idea who Brienne's mother is. She could be of Dayne blood. GRRM withholds what he wants, which I think is a lot. Brienne is also of questionable birth if you ask me. She is never referred to as Brienne Tarth, only Brienne of Tarth, which seems like an odd hint. As if she could be a bastard, such as someone could or would not tag her with a legal name, such as Storm. I am not even convinced that she is Selwyn's daughter, actually. Lot's of mystery about Brienne. She is referred to as Lady Brienne often, which does imply a legal birth, which does throw a curve ball at my bastard theory.
Well, Mance was raised on the wall, and could have learned skills from many people. He has had much time to learn to fight with a great sword, but the why is what is interesting. Most people don't use a great sword, so the fact that Mance know's how to use one or wants to use one seems to be a clue. And he is very good with a steel great sword, what could he do with Valyrian steel or Dawn? Still, if Arthur lived, I think he was Qhorin. I am basing that on a hand injury that I think Arthur Dayne suffered, but that is tinfoil, too!
I agree that is what seems to be the timeline, but in the real world and probably Planetos, it's easy to lose track of millenia, especially with no written records. The whole timeline and legends could be jumbled up.
I agree that this seems implied, but this story is dangerous if you follow many of the implications. GRRM is tricksy!
This is a good catch. I had not thought of it before, or on this subject much at all, to be truthful. But perhaps the CotF gave the dagger's to the Watch during the Long Night. It was said to last a generation, so that is -
years of obsidian giving, at least.
Where exactly is hard to say, but there are limited options. They dress in black, so it would be fitting if they patrolled black walls, like maybe the Five Forts... I can't think of other black walls that occur in multiples. Especially having been built before the LN. So yeah, Five Forts would work - and they would have a similar task of being the shield that guards the realms of men from the snarks and goblins on the other side - but I could also see it being Winterfell, though TWOIAF claims the second wall was built long after the LN. Or maybe, if you believe those maesters who claim the earliest foundations of the Wall were made of stone, there were several separate walls initially? In either case, the NW didn't start out patrolling the one Wall.
Why didn't they change the oath to "the Wall" whenever they began to patrol it? IMO, the most likely explanation is that they had been swearing it the other way for a long time, and maybe even wanted to remember their origin (which obviously failed). It seems unlikely that they would have said "walls" only while the Wall was being built in pieces, and then refused to update when it was completed. You would think they would be proud of guarding the end of the world, and one of the wonders made by man. Instead, their oath makes little sense for their current situation.A couple of things here. I agree the wording "walls" is odd, and I don't know why it has not been updated. Perhaps because there is magic or power in the specific words. I have wondered if during the long night, there were several places that were safe, perhaps castles like Winterfell, or Storm's End, or Casterly Rock, and these places were all part of a huge network of black knight's and walls. Hence the wording of their pledge. Perhaps, the other's left people alone if they were behind certain walls?
Another option is that beneath the wall is buried several fortifications with wall's, and these were the original wall's that are spoken off. Later, the ice was built between or around them, and eventually over them. This possibility would mirror the fortifications of the Five Forts in Essos, only they never got an ice wall over there. This would still leave actually "wall's" beneath "the Wall" to be guarded, hence no need to change the oath.
- Bran, AGOT
-Bran, ASOS
Tangent: While we're on Symeon Star-Eyes.... what are the chances that the NW after the LN would have accepted someone like him into their ranks? Those star sapphire eyes would really freak them out if they still remember the Others!
Just for comparison, here is the description of Night's Queen (Bran, ASOS):
It seems to me that having eyes like blue stars would disqualify you from serving in the Night's Watch.
Could Symeon Star Eye's be the Night's King? Or the child of the Night's King and Night's Queen? One who did not get sacrificed, as the reign of the Night's King was ended?
Or possibly, he came before the Night's King, and at that time, Other blood was accepted into the ranks of the Night's Watch. Which then makes me think, what were they all guarding the realms of men from? Not the Other's, if an Other served in the Watch. What ever it was that Bran Stark see's in the Heart of Winter that makes him weep tears that burn his cheek's. Something far worse than the Other's, only people have forgotten.
And what is a hell hound in this instance? Could it be direwolves? Or could it be dragon's? Dragon's that breath fire might indicate a more classic dragon, with four legs, instead of the two-legged variety that GRRM's uses?
So this quote suggests that ... I don't even know. That the Age of Heroes was still ongoing 500 years before the Andals came? That would have to be after the LN then, unless the LN was only 4500 years ago. I almost feel like GRRM is being vague on purpose when it comes to the Age of Heroes. We are told it lasted for as long as there was peace between the COTF and the FM. But those two groups never did go back to war, so by that definition is it still ongoing? It seems certain that, once the Andals were around, it was not the Age of Heroes anymore. But if the arrival of the Andals ended the Age of Heroes, that seems really clear-cut and should be clearly stated. Also, the centuries after the LN would have been chaos, not a time for knights and heroes....
So you can see, there is a good bit of evidence supporting the idea of the NW being around during the Age of Heroes, which probably was before the LN. However, due to the uncertain timelines, there is no definitive proof.
I like this idea of the Age of Hero's lasted until the Andal's came, which could correlate to when the Pact finally ended. When the First Men and the Children had to accept the place of the Andal's in Westeros finally. This put's the Faith of the Seven (faith of the Andal's) in direct conflict with the gods of the First Men and CotF. But what are those gods? Is it the weirwoods? Is it some other gods, like the Storm God and the Drowned God and such?
Sansa POV, ASOS:
I recently tried to connect pearl's to the Stark's because of this quote and the pearls sewn onto Sansa's wedding cloak and a gown she wore, but ended up finding this was the strongest direct connection. Pearls show up more in reference to the Vale and the Arryn sigil, than the Stark's. There are several Black Pearl references in Arya's POV. Arya by far has the most pearl references in her story, with green pearls, baby pearls, mother-of-pearl, and black pearls but it's still minimal in the entire story. I was trying to link the pearls to Stark females, but I like this connection to the Great Empire of the Dawn.
- TWOIAF
- Dany, AGOT
This jewel connection is really nice, linking jewel's, and perhaps several important Westeros houses to the GEotD.
Oh absolutely! The famous Stark temper got Brandon killed. The Starks call it The Wolf Blood, but that's romanticizing a crappy personality trait IMO. Kind of like Viserys would refer to his little freak-outs as Waking the Dragon. (Which makes me wonder if that's what LmL was referring to when he said Jon's temper supports Targ ancestry? Overall, we see it more with Starks, IMO.
Very true, and I hadn't thought of that. She is a weird mix of symbolism for sure. The most honorable person in Westeros, carrying a Lannister-owned (previously Stark-owned) Valyrian steel sword that just so happens to be red and black and may catch on fire if she kills lady SH .. but in Jaime's dream her sword burned with a pale fire which makes me think Dayne or Others (or Gemstone Emperors!?!?!), and she has a clear protector role when it comes to Jaime...
She is really a wild card. My only real hangup with her being the next SOTM is that I'm not sure how we would learn that she is a Dayne. She is highborn, so her parents are not in question, which means if there is enough Dayne blood in her family to qualify then that should already be known (at least to the Daynes and Tarths, if not readers). Also she already has a magic sword in Othkeeper/Ice. But hey, if it turns out to be her, I wouldn't complain! She is certainly worthy, no doubt.
I would be among the very happy people!! There is actually quite a bit of evidence for this theory, including as you mentioned that Mance is a FAR superior swordsman compared to Jon, who is the best on the Wall and was trained in Winterfell, along with the next lord Stark. Where would some wildling kid learn to fight like that? Certainly nobody at the Wall teaches those kinds of skills, and wildlings rarely carry greatswords let alone know how to use them...
The accepted timeline (according to TWOIAF) is: Dawn Age - Pact - Age of Heroes - Long Night - Unspecified recovery period & gradual formation of the seven kingdoms - arrival of the Andals etc etc
The important part is that the Age of Heroes is before the Long Night. Hence the Last Hero.
1) We know that the COTF gave 100 obsidian daggers to the Night's Watch each year during the Age of Heroes. Which very much implies that the NW existed during the Age of Heroes, before the Long Night.
years of obsidian giving, at least.
2) The Night's Watch oath speaks of Watchers on the walls. Nevermind that it hasn't been updated to "the Wall" in 8,000 years, the point is that the NW originated as a group that watched from more than one wall. So they were watching somewhere else, somewhere that had multiple walls.
Where exactly is hard to say, but there are limited options. They dress in black, so it would be fitting if they patrolled black walls, like maybe the Five Forts... I can't think of other black walls that occur in multiples. Especially having been built before the LN. So yeah, Five Forts would work - and they would have a similar task of being the shield that guards the realms of men from the snarks and goblins on the other side - but I could also see it being Winterfell, though TWOIAF claims the second wall was built long after the LN. Or maybe, if you believe those maesters who claim the earliest foundations of the Wall were made of stone, there were several separate walls initially? In either case, the NW didn't start out patrolling the one Wall.
Why didn't they change the oath to "the Wall" whenever they began to patrol it? IMO, the most likely explanation is that they had been swearing it the other way for a long time, and maybe even wanted to remember their origin (which obviously failed). It seems unlikely that they would have said "walls" only while the Wall was being built in pieces, and then refused to update when it was completed. You would think they would be proud of guarding the end of the world, and one of the wonders made by man. Instead, their oath makes little sense for their current situation.
Another option is that beneath the wall is buried several fortifications with wall's, and these were the original wall's that are spoken off. Later, the ice was built between or around them, and eventually over them. This possibility would mirror the fortifications of the Five Forts in Essos, only they never got an ice wall over there. This would still leave actually "wall's" beneath "the Wall" to be guarded, hence no need to change the oath.
3) Symeon Star-Eyes is claimed to have lived in the Age of Heroes, yet he also saw the hellhounds fighting at the Nightfort. So the Nightfort was already standing before the LN.
“There was a knight once who couldn’t see,” Bran said stubbornly, as Ser Rodrik went on below. “Old Nan told me about him. He had a long staff with blades at both ends and he could spin it in his hands and chop two men at once.”
“Symeon Star-Eyes,” Luwin said as he marked numbers in a book. “When he lost his eyes, he put star sapphires in the empty sockets, or so the singers claim. Bran, that is only a story, like the tales of Florian the Fool. A fable from the Age of Heroes.” The maester tsked. “You must put these dreams aside, they will only break your heart.”
“Symeon Star-Eyes,” Luwin said as he marked numbers in a book. “When he lost his eyes, he put star sapphires in the empty sockets, or so the singers claim. Bran, that is only a story, like the tales of Florian the Fool. A fable from the Age of Heroes.” The maester tsked. “You must put these dreams aside, they will only break your heart.”
Bran wasn’t so certain. The Nightfort had figured in some of Old Nan’s scariest stories. It was here that Night’s King had reigned, before his name was wiped from the memory of man. This was where the Rat Cook had served the Andal king his prince-and-bacon pie, where the seventy-nine sentinels stood their watch, where brave young Danny Flint had been raped and murdered. This was the castle where King Sherrit had called down his curse on the Andals of old, where the ‘prentice boys had faced the thing that came in the night, where blind Symeon Star-Eyes had seen the hellhounds fighting. Mad Axe had once walked these yards and climbed these towers, butchering his brothers in the dark.
Tangent: While we're on Symeon Star-Eyes.... what are the chances that the NW after the LN would have accepted someone like him into their ranks? Those star sapphire eyes would really freak them out if they still remember the Others!
Just for comparison, here is the description of Night's Queen (Bran, ASOS):
A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars.
Or possibly, he came before the Night's King, and at that time, Other blood was accepted into the ranks of the Night's Watch. Which then makes me think, what were they all guarding the realms of men from? Not the Other's, if an Other served in the Watch. What ever it was that Bran Stark see's in the Heart of Winter that makes him weep tears that burn his cheek's. Something far worse than the Other's, only people have forgotten.
And what is a hell hound in this instance? Could it be direwolves? Or could it be dragon's? Dragon's that breath fire might indicate a more classic dragon, with four legs, instead of the two-legged variety that GRRM's uses?
However, there is also this suggestion that maybe the Age of Heroes did not end with the Long Night but continued through it. Here is Hoster Blackwood, talking to Jaime:
“It is, my lord,” the boy said, “but some of the histories were penned by their maesters and some by ours, centuries after the events that they purport to chronicle. It goes back to the Age of Heroes. The Blackwoods were kings in those days. The Brackens were petty lords, renowned for breeding horses. Rather than pay their king his just due, they used the gold their horses brought them to hire swords and cast him down.”
“When did all this happen?”
“Five hundred years before the Andals. A thousand, if the True History is to be believed. Only no one knows when the Andals crossed the narrow sea. The True History says four thousand years have passed since then, but some maesters claim that it was only two. Past a certain point, all the dates grow hazy and confused, and the clarity of history
becomes the fog of legend.”
“When did all this happen?”
“Five hundred years before the Andals. A thousand, if the True History is to be believed. Only no one knows when the Andals crossed the narrow sea. The True History says four thousand years have passed since then, but some maesters claim that it was only two. Past a certain point, all the dates grow hazy and confused, and the clarity of history
becomes the fog of legend.”
So this quote suggests that ... I don't even know. That the Age of Heroes was still ongoing 500 years before the Andals came? That would have to be after the LN then, unless the LN was only 4500 years ago. I almost feel like GRRM is being vague on purpose when it comes to the Age of Heroes. We are told it lasted for as long as there was peace between the COTF and the FM. But those two groups never did go back to war, so by that definition is it still ongoing? It seems certain that, once the Andals were around, it was not the Age of Heroes anymore. But if the arrival of the Andals ended the Age of Heroes, that seems really clear-cut and should be clearly stated. Also, the centuries after the LN would have been chaos, not a time for knights and heroes....
So you can see, there is a good bit of evidence supporting the idea of the NW being around during the Age of Heroes, which probably was before the LN. However, due to the uncertain timelines, there is no definitive proof.
I like this idea of the Age of Hero's lasted until the Andal's came, which could correlate to when the Pact finally ended. When the First Men and the Children had to accept the place of the Andal's in Westeros finally. This put's the Faith of the Seven (faith of the Andal's) in direct conflict with the gods of the First Men and CotF. But what are those gods? Is it the weirwoods? Is it some other gods, like the Storm God and the Drowned God and such?
This is the morning of Joffrey's wedding.
Sansa POV, ASOS:
Lord Mace Tyrell came forward to present his gift: a golden chalice three feet tall, with two ornate curved handles and seven faces glittering with gemstones. “Seven faces for Your Grace’s seven kingdoms,” the bride’s father explained. He showed them how each face bore the sigil of
one of the great houses: ruby lion, emerald rose, onyx stag, silver trout, blue jade falcon, opal sun, and pearl direwolf.
“A splendid cup,” said Joffrey, “but we’ll need to chip the wolf off and put a squid in its place, I think.”
one of the great houses: ruby lion, emerald rose, onyx stag, silver trout, blue jade falcon, opal sun, and pearl direwolf.
“A splendid cup,” said Joffrey, “but we’ll need to chip the wolf off and put a squid in its place, I think.”
I recently tried to connect pearl's to the Stark's because of this quote and the pearls sewn onto Sansa's wedding cloak and a gown she wore, but ended up finding this was the strongest direct connection. Pearls show up more in reference to the Vale and the Arryn sigil, than the Stark's. There are several Black Pearl references in Arya's POV. Arya by far has the most pearl references in her story, with green pearls, baby pearls, mother-of-pearl, and black pearls but it's still minimal in the entire story. I was trying to link the pearls to Stark females, but I like this connection to the Great Empire of the Dawn.
ETA: I'm gonna put these other two passages here, just for reference:
For ten thousand years the Great Empire of the Dawn flourished in peace and plenty under the God-on-Earth, until at last he ascended to the stars to join his forebears.
Dominion over mankind then passed to his eldest son, who was known as the Pearl Emperor and ruled for a thousand years. The Jade Emperor, the Tourmaline Emperor, the Onyx Emperor, the Topaz Emperor, and the Opal Emperor followed in turn, each reigning for centuries … yet every reign was shorter and more troubled than the one preceding it, for wild men and baleful beasts pressed at the borders of the Great Empire, lesser kings grew prideful and rebellious, and the common people gave themselves over to avarice, envy, lust, murder, incest, gluttony, and sloth.
When the daughter of the Opal Emperor succeeded him as the Amethyst Empress, her envious younger brother cast her down and slew her, proclaiming himself the Bloodstone Emperor and beginning a reign of terror. He practiced dark arts, torture, and necromancy, enslaved his people, took a tiger-woman for his bride, feasted on human flesh, and cast down the true gods to worship a black stone that had fallen from the sky.
Dominion over mankind then passed to his eldest son, who was known as the Pearl Emperor and ruled for a thousand years. The Jade Emperor, the Tourmaline Emperor, the Onyx Emperor, the Topaz Emperor, and the Opal Emperor followed in turn, each reigning for centuries … yet every reign was shorter and more troubled than the one preceding it, for wild men and baleful beasts pressed at the borders of the Great Empire, lesser kings grew prideful and rebellious, and the common people gave themselves over to avarice, envy, lust, murder, incest, gluttony, and sloth.
When the daughter of the Opal Emperor succeeded him as the Amethyst Empress, her envious younger brother cast her down and slew her, proclaiming himself the Bloodstone Emperor and beginning a reign of terror. He practiced dark arts, torture, and necromancy, enslaved his people, took a tiger-woman for his bride, feasted on human flesh, and cast down the true gods to worship a black stone that had fallen from the sky.
Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. “Faster,” they cried, “faster, faster.” She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. “Faster!” the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward. A great knife of pain ripped down her back, and she felt her skin tear open and smelled the stench of burning blood and saw the shadow of wings. And Daenerys Targaryen flew.
This jewel connection is really nice, linking jewel's, and perhaps several important Westeros houses to the GEotD.