]Agreed! I am also a consummate follower of Strauss & Howe's generational theory, and have indeed spent some time breaking down the generations of Westeros. They list archetypal generations, which I consider to be one of four different types of Generations of approximately 20 years in length (some a little longer, some a little shorter).
Whitewolf, this is a really interesting thought about GRRM's approach to generational change, and I'd love to see you expand on it. However, it seems to me like you've stepped a generation. Surely Benjen/Ned's rebellion generation is the Civic generation, defined by a coming-of-age crisis, while Jon's generation are the Artist generation, born during that crisis?
When you say,Joff and Jon has been repeatedly contrasted against each other with regard to their parentage ,i'm looking for that.That isn't the case though.In the opening parts of the book when Joff is described as having the Lannister look..Am i wrong?
Yes, the contrast between Jon and Joff is quite explicit -- the difference in appearance being just one part of it, explored indirectly through the way that Sansa and Arya discuss appearances, always in relation to one or the other. Sansa and Arya's interaction largely revolves around the contrast between the two, with Arya immediately displaying her admiration of Jon in response to Sansa's admiration of Joff the very first time we meet them. Shortly followed by the "bastards are not allowed to damage young princes" scene. It's the black bastard who goes north into effective exile, and the golden prince who heads south towards kingship. The insider vs. the outsider. The golden boy of house Lannister vs. the dark sheep of House Stark. Jon who's honourable but gets nothing, vs. Joff who's unworthy but gets everything. Jon who has to struggle to earn command, while Joff has it handed to him on a plate. Joffrey who Sansa watches as he dispenses "what it pleased him to call justice", while Jon finally dispenses the justice she's thinking won't ever be dispensed, because monsters (Joff) always win and there are no heroes (Jon) any more.
You miss the point with this.If Ned says one day he'll "explain" to Sansa how her words revealed the truth to him then your arguement has a problem and it is the underline issue wth this theory.Soooo if your saying that the underline truth is that the incest is a Stark family secret and based on that Ned arrived at the truth then this is what he was causally going to reveal to Sansa.
You're missing my point. Your contention is that Cersei's words revealed the truth to Ned, yet Ned tells Sansa that is was HER words that revealed the truth to him. How can Ned one day explain to Sansa how her words revealed the truth to him, if her words did not reveal the truth to him because he didn't know the truth until he talked to Cersei?
This was the spontaneous "out of the mouth of babes?" I don't see it. Ned entire reaction is is based off a series of clues and Sansa's words just bringing it together.Not from family experiance.
Simple enough. Having family experience of an extraordinary set of circumstances doesn't you'll assume that set of circumstances is common after all. However it does mean you'll be more primed to recognise the pattern, and thus an innocent comment may be enough to reveal the truth. You're there already when you say "Ned's entire reaction is based off a series of clues..." The family experience isn't the revelation, it's one of those clues.
KM you and i have the luxury of a wider view,therefore we can say its probably this Lannister or that Lannister....Ned just made a guess and Cersie confirmed it by NOT denying Ned's guess.It was the most obvious guess that anyone would guess. How do we propose LF and Varys figured this out,they already knew and had known for a while.How did Stannis know to name Jamie as father and not just some random Lannister? Did he have some incestuous secret in the family to draw upon? I doubt it,it's just process of elimination coming into play...Hence Jamie.
I agree that Cersei confirmed Ned's guess, the question is why he would make that particular guess. Indeed, why would he guess the father was a Lannister at all? Where does that assumption that the father should be a Lannister come from? There is literally nothing that gives any hint at all as to who the father is. Nothing. Apart from the appearance of the kids. Which should not be a clue, because Ned's own experience is that children can look like just one of their parents. Arya looks like a Stark not a Tully. So why would Joff looking like a Lannister hint that his father was also a Lannister, rather than for example a Tully? Perhaps Ned had a specific example of a child of incest with that pure look, which gave him the idea to contemplate the possibility which most people wouldn't even consider?
How Stannis, Littlefinger and Varys knew, we don't know. They weren't limited to the information that Ned had at his disposal. They had been in King's Landing for years, watching the situation closely. There's all sorts of things that might have revealed the truth to them -- we shouldn't expect to know, because we have extremely limited information about how they learned this. By contrast we have Ned's own PoV of him discovering the truth, and despite that we don't know how he came to this conclusion either. That's an omission.
She didn't just dismiss Robert,she made Jamie her intimate the moment she chose "my" vs "your" singularly they mean nothing but the moment she chose those differentiation she made it seem Jamie was her intimate.And that was the end Ned needed to make his guess to which she confirmed.
How's "my" making Jamie her intimate, any more than "your" is making Robert Ned's intimate? I'm pretty sure you don't think Ned and Robert were shagging. What else would you call your brother other than "my brother"? This seems like confirmation bias to me, that you read that line in that way because you already know how Cersei feels about her brother. If the reader didn't know, I don't believe it would give even the slightest hint that there was anything sexual rather than purely fraternal in that relationship. I'm sorry, but I see literally nothing here. We'll really just have to agree to disagree.
]Agreed! I am also a consummate follower of Strauss & Howe's generational theory, and have indeed spent some time breaking down the generations of Westeros. They list archetypal generations, which I consider to be one of four different types of Generations of approximately 20 years in length (some a little longer, some a little shorter).
Whitewolf, this is a really interesting thought about GRRM's approach to generational change, and I'd love to see you expand on it. However, it seems to me like you've stepped a generation. Surely Benjen/Ned's rebellion generation is the Civic generation, defined by a coming-of-age crisis, while Jon's generation are the Artist generation, born during that crisis?
Not at all, as the Crisis doesn't begin until Robert dies, believe it or not. There are Four Turnings or periods of time which accompany the four repeating generations. These turnings are societal moods that last give or take anywhere between 17 to 25 years. The Long Summer quite clearly is a Third Turning, or Unraveling.
The Third Turning is an Unraveling. Old Heroes die, Artists enter elderhood, Prophets enter midlife, Nomads enter young adulthood—and a new generation of child Heroes is born. The mood of this era is in many ways the opposite of a High. Institutions are weak and distrusted, while individualism is strong and flourishing. Highs follow Crises, which teach the lesson that society must coalesce and build. Unravelings follow Awakenings, which teach the lesson that society must atomize and enjoy.
In Parsons’ terms, a Third Turning is an era in which both the availability of social order and the demand for such order are low. Examples of earlier Unravelings include the periods around the “roaring” 1920s of Prohibition, the Mexican War in the 1840s, and the French and Indian Wars in the 1760s. These were all periods of cynicism and bad manners, when civic authority felt weak, social disorder felt pervasive, and the culture felt exhausted.
There's also an earlier Unraveling, which is listed which of course AGOT has drawn source material from:
Retreat from France (Third Turning, 1435–1459) was an era of dynastic decline and civil disorder. In 1435, not long after Joan of Arc’s execution, the English withdrew from Paris for the last time. In the 1440s, they were pushed out of France on all fronts. Thus ended the Hundred Years War. Meanwhile, the weak rule of young Henry VI eroded central authority in England. By the 1450s, noble houses flouted the law, vied for power, and engaged in private wars with impunity.
Everything in AGOT up to the point where Robert dies, is still 3T. It could have been "resolved" by Robert forcing the Starks and the Lannisters to "make up" like Henry VI did with York and Lancaster with "Love Day" in 1455. Robert's death marks the end of this period, of which Robert I'd argue is the living embodiment, if not the spirit of the age.
After Robert's death, with the beginning of the War of the Five Kings, you've entered Crisis mode, with the major Crisis being not the squabbles over who is to sit the Iron Throne but the WW apocalypse awaiting them.
The Fourth Turning is a Crisis. Old Artists die, Prophets enter elderhood, Nomads enter midlife, Heroes enter young adulthood—and a new generation of child Artists is born. This is an era in which America’s institutional life is torn down and rebuilt from the ground up—always in response to a perceived threat to the nation’s very survival. Civic authority revives, cultural expression finds a community purpose, and people begin to locate themselves as members of a larger group. In every instance, Fourth Turnings have eventually become new “founding moments” in America’s history, refreshing and redefining the national identity.
In Parsons’ terms, a Fourth Turning is an era in which the availability of social order is low, but the demand for such order is high. They are periods of momentous crisis, when the identity of the nation hung in the balance.
This is what we expect to happen as Westeros gears itself to fight against the WWs.
I've had this thought before, although always limited to Ned as the father. My gut says it's not true but isn't it awesome that it conceivably could be?
I've had this thought before, although always limited to Ned as the father. My gut says it's not true but isn't it awesome that it conceivably could be?
It is. LOL
Why did Ned stick out to you, +L? Doesn't Ben seem more likely?
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I've had this thought before, although always limited to Ned as the father. My gut says it's not true but isn't it awesome that it conceivably could be?
It is. LOL
Why did Ned stick out to you, +L? Doesn't Ben seem more likely?
Ben is far too young, no? I mean the story of him teasing Lyanna at Harrenhall pretty much eliminates the possibility of him having recently fathered a child on her right? I mean if B+L=J then it is waaaaaaaaay freakier than Jaime & Cersei
Not at all. Ben and Lya are nearly the same age, she being slightly older. Not at all unlike Jaime and Cersei.
Huh? It's not something I've looked into so I'll take your word for it. I will say, when I watched the first episode of the show I'd never even heard of the books and the first thing I said when I saw Benjen was, "that's Snow's real dad !!". *shrugs* go figure ?
Huh? It's not something I've looked into so I'll take your word for it. I will say, when I watched the first episode of the show I'd never even heard of the books and the first thing I said when I saw Benjen was, "that's Snow's real dad !!". *shrugs* go figure ?
They could even be twins for all we know, which unfortunately, isn't much. Here's the calculation for Ben, with mention of Lyanna: link
Huh? It's not something I've looked into so I'll take your word for it. I will say, when I watched the first episode of the show I'd never even heard of the books and the first thing I said when I saw Benjen was, "that's Snow's real dad !!". *shrugs* go figure ?
They could even be twins for all we know, which unfortunately, isn't much. Here's the calculation for Ben, with mention of Lyanna: link
Hilariously I actually have that link already open, great minds etc etc Twins is a tad far-fetched as there wouldn't seem to be any logical reason to keep that a secret, I will admit, it is plausible. Still, if Ben is the father doesn't the promise seem less significant in a way ? Sure if it was known then there would be a scandal but no-one would be looking to do Jon harm and if the promise doesn't relate to Jon's safety then I'm a Valyrian Sphinx.
Still, if Ben is the father doesn't the promise seem less significant in a way ? Sure if it was known then there would be a scandal but no-one would be looking to do Jon harm and if the promise doesn't relate to Jon's safety then I'm a Valyrian Sphinx.
Well, there was more than one promise. And who's to say Ned wouldn't have killed Jon himself if it turned out he was born of incest? She now had to protect Jon from Ned the Lord, and his justice. Mayhaps Lyanna also asked for Ben to be sent to the Wall, rather than let him be beheaded.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Still, if Ben is the father doesn't the promise seem less significant in a way ? Sure if it was known then there would be a scandal but no-one would be looking to do Jon harm and if the promise doesn't relate to Jon's safety then I'm a Valyrian Sphinx.
Well, there was more than one promise. And who's to say Ned wouldn't have killed Jon himself if it turned out he was born of incest? She now had to protect Jon from Ned the Lord, and his justice. Mayhaps Lyanna also asked for Ben to be sent to the Wall, rather than let him be beheaded.
Hmm, it is worth thinking about, if for no other reason than HBO cast a dude who looks like Jon's dad to play Benjen
To take this seriously one has to ignore the timeline. Specifically one has to think George either made a huge error or he flat out lied to readers when he told us that Jon was "eight to nine" months older than Daenerys. His quote means Jon is conceived after both Rickard and Brandon are dead, and after the young Benjen and Ned are separated from Lyanna by the tide of the rebellion. Really doesn't work.
The problem is, that the timeline doesn't work for other events either. So either GRRM confused himself, or we are being misled (i.e. Dany was born a few months earlier than we think). The best faulty timeline example is Elia's presence at Harrenhal. Followed by Aegon's birth just a few months later. This would suggest that Rhaegar took his very pregnant, already very frail wife to a tourney?? Why would he do that (especially if he wasn't even going to give her the damn flowers!)? It makes no sense that such a risk would have been taken. There also is no mention anywhere of Elia being pregnant at HH. The other thing that's weird is that, if Elia was pregnant at the time, Rhaegar did not yet know that she would be unable to give him a third child. Giving him even less reason to go after Lyanna... It also means the happy couple with PTWP scene that Dany sees happened after Rhaegar spurned Elia at HH. So even after meeting Lyanna and giving her flowers, Rhaegar still thought Elia's baby was the PTWP. So what was the plan for Jon, was he expecting a girl to name Visenya?
So I don't have much faith in timeline-based arguments. There is just way too much ambiguity, amid outright contradictions, for me to consider a few months in either direction important. Now, of course if a theory also works with the timeline, that is a plus, no doubt. But I personally am fine with small timeline discrepancies, b/c I simply don't think GRRM had everything planned out down to the month and week.
There's another example where Jon says something like during a certain winter he was a "babe in arms" - but if you do the math, he was 4 years old.
Which reminds me of the fact that Ned is awfully, awfully close to his sister that he rarely saw. I mean, if he went to the Vale at 8, Lyanna would have been, what 4? 5? And if he saw her a couple of times a year, how would they develop the deep and intimate relationship that is implied in the books?
Unless the deep and intimate relationship didn't come from childhood, and didn't develop until they were older.....
Well, Black Crow always wanted Jon to be the son of Winterfell... boy is he ever, in this scenario.
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
I will start this response by saying that, while I am new to this board, I spend time on the Westeros and the Reddit boards, mostly just creeping and thinking about theories, and one type of theory that I have always, flat out ignored, is the Stark incest theories. I don't like it. Nope. Not the Starks, not the good guys, right?
Wait, what? Ew! No way. That's sick. No way is Jon an incest child. Sick!
Yeah, I'm going there. Someone's got to. It's the nuclear option, and I'm pressing the button. BAM! Suck it in. This is the option that never gets discussed because as soon as anyone raises it, they get shouted down. Nobody wants it to be true.
But I found myself clicking on this thread, more to see what it was actually about, and when I realized it was Starkcest, I almost backed out, but the bit of humor caught my attention and I decided to just read a few more lines.
Jon looks like a Stark, he acts like a Stark, not surprising because one of his parents is a Stark, and he was raised in the North by a Stark. I read GOT right after the first season of the HBO show. After concluding that book, I was pretty positive that Lyanna was Jon's mother, Rhaegar his father and Ned the uncle/martyr that raised his sister's bastard. I seen what several of my friends who had also read the books did not and I was surprised they did not pick out the details that I saw that hinted at Jon's true parentage. There is so much text that seems to fit. Of course, I am not alone in this idea. Obviously about 90% of the world is on the R+L=J train.
I felt out the Ashara and Wylla hints, and concluded Lyanna was the one. If Lyanna is the mother, then who is the father. I felt out those hinted at options as well and it seemed like Rhaegar was the obvious choice to be the father. He kidnapped her, or she kidnapped him, or they eloped, or aliens carried them to the ToJ and forced them to have sex until they produced the offspring that would save the world, aka Jon Snow, the Bastard of Winterfell, the White Wolf and the Bestower of the Lords Kiss. Actually the R+L=J didn't even seem like such a stretch, and it still doesn't, but I am not 100% sold, because after all, GRRM is a "tricksy bird" and is far smarter, more devious and more complicated that I could ever dream of being. So part of me expects some kind of awful, gut wrenching twist.
But incest in the Stark family? That idea hurts, a lot.
Tyrion thinks of Jon that “Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son, “ but he also tells Jon that “You have more of the north in you than your brothers.” He sees only Ned in Jon, while he sees Cat's influence in Jon's brothers. If Jon is Lyanna's son but the father was not a northerner, why would Jon have “more of the north” in him than his brothers? What Tyrion is observing is that the Stark characteristics are diluted in the other siblings, but undiluted in Jon. How do you get a child with undiluted Stark characteristics? Simple, you have two Stark parents.
I am not niave by any means, but this idea is a tough pill to swallow. It hurts, it get's stuck when you try to swallow, it lingers. And lingers. Actually, for the last week, I have been unable to clear it from my mind, or throat. I have been combing through my books, looking at this thread and responses over on Westeros, playing out possible scenerios in my mind ... and determined that it has a lot of merit. It is ugly and uncomfortable and makes me want to brush my teeth over and over, but it has merit.
Ned thought in GoT, after he had confronted Cersei in the Godswood (amazing scene, BTW) and she had admitted the truth, "How could they have all been so blind? The truth was there in front of them all the time, written on the children's faces. Ned felt sick." Honestly that is how I felt a little bit. Sick, and shocked by my blindness to deny the possibility that Jon, who has "more of the north in him than his brothers", is a Stark/Stark. I am not saying I am sold on the theory, but I think it has more merit than many other theories floating around in the ASOIAF gulf stream. Thanks kingmonkey , for using the right blend of deduction and humor to present the topic in a way that I did not run screaming from the room, tearing my eye balls from their sockets.
Deducing that Robert wasn't the father is simple if genetically somewhat dubious detective work. Deducing that Jaime must be the dad is a shot out of the blue.
So, this has actually always bothered me in GoT, how Ned got from point A to Z. Of course, there is a lot of hinting, ducking and weaving, and omission (purposefully, of course) in GRRM's writing, and we can try to fill in the blanks, or wait until he reveals the missing parts of the alphabet. Of course, Ned is gone, and so he can't fill us in on his deduction process, but the idea that Ned realized and accepted the incest pretty calmly, almost tenderly, and with no obvious judgement, is intriguing.
One of the reasons I can see the possibility is that the Stark v Lannister set up has always been a contrast and comparison. It starts out pretty black and white, as in Good Stark and Bad Lannister, and as characters and plots develop, we see that the contrasts are not as blunt and the comparisons are more similar than we ever thought they would be. So Ned and the Starks start as the paragons of honor and Jaime/Cersei and the Lannisters as the immoral demons, but will it end with Ned the big baddie and Jaime is glowing with heavenly light. Dear GRRM, please do not do that to my Ned!
So there are mirror's between many characters, Jaime/Ned, Cersei/Lyanna, Joffrey/Jon, Tywin/Rickard (although we really don't know much about Rickard Stark, which must be a purposeful omission, but maybe Rickard was as evilly devious and ambitious as Tywin). So, if the Lannisters have committed the big bad sin of fornication with a sibling, does that mean the Stark's have, too? Not everything has a mirror in this series, but there are a lot of them. So once, I wrapped my head around this idea of possible Jon is a Stark/Stark, thoughts and possibilities just started to pour out. A theory worth thinking about, even if you don't want to believe it or do not actually believe it at all.
To make this theory possible, we need the X + Y, and we are calling X = Lyanna, so we need to think about the Y factor. So, who is the dirty Stark daddy that = Y?
I am going to dismiss Rickard from my line of thinking, mostly because for the comparrision to the Lannisters, the incest would need to be siblings. Unless we can draw up something to support Tywin+Cersei=Joffrey, I am just erasing Rickard from the board.
Brandon the Womaniser is the obvious choice. Poor Brandon, everyone blames him for everything. He seems to have done the deed with every other woman in Westeros, so why not Lyanna? If Brandon was in love with Lyanna – and even more, if Brandon knew Lyanna was carrying his child – it would help explain why Brandon blew his top so spectacularly.
Brandon and Lyanna are thought of by Ned as having "wolf-blood" that lead them both to an early grave. Ok. They were wild, but wild enough to make the beast with two backs? Brandon did react strongly, both to Rhaegar giving Lyanna the crown of blue roses at Harrenhal as well as when he found out Rhaegar had "taken" Lyanna. I mean, he raced off willy nilly to Kings Landing, dared the Crown Prince to come out and die, handed himself over to Aerys (okay, he got captured but did he really fight), and got he and his father killed. Thinking like a man in love, or one who was at least possessive, and who wanted his toy back. (Eesh, makes me think of Ramsay/Reek, and I don't like it. Need to brush my teeth, again) Barbrey Dustin alludes to Brandon and Lyanna being close, but this close? If Barbrey suspected incest, I don't think she would be quite so in love with Brandon, but who really knows what floats her boat, as she could very well be diddling Roose, who is the creepiest dude in Westeros.
I will take this time to say that I think the whole time line of Robert's Rebellion and the period leading up to it, as well as peoples whereabouts is very loose. Intended to be that way, by GRRM, and so it is hard to rule much out as a possibility, but it seems like Lyanna would have to be already prego with brother Brandon's baby before he raced off to KL and got choked out. But it is possible. Who know's when Jon was really born, any way? In the ToJ or not; before the Rebellions started, after the Rebellion ended, or sometime in the middle; either before or after Robb was born; maybe, or eight or nine months before Dany who was born eight or nine moons after the sack of Kings Landing, unless she was born some other time and place. Okay, what ever date that could be! The timeline around Jon's birth is real vague, to say the least.
Brandon is a possibility, but it doesn't get my gut instinct (which feels just like heartburn) going.
So, Eddard, the quiet wolf...
Good old Ned ... I have learned in life that you need to watch out for the quiet ones!
So onto the middle brother, Eddard. It couldn't possibly be honourable Ned though. Ned wouldn't shag Lyanna, Right? Right? Not “Dearest Ned”, who “had loved her with all his heart”, and “dishonoured [himself] and dishonoured Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men”? Wait, what?
That's why he lies awake at night, his sleep troubled for fourteen years by the terrible knowledge that he hadn't actually done anything wron... uh, I mean... well. “Old guilts”, right?
“The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words.” Shame? That seems a little bit strong. Or not, if you were slipping your sister a length of Valyrian steel.
After leaving Cat he could have rushed south at top speed to the Tower of Joy, had a quickie with Lyanna, high-fived Rhaegar, then raced up north to gather an army to overthrow Rhaegar's family.
Included because of the stunningly fabulous visual this inspired in my head!
So let's talk about Ned, whom I love as a character beyond belief, as much as I love Jon Jon, the Snow boy. Ned, who was plagued by guilt, haunted by Lyanna, by her blue roses, by her tears of blood, by her memory in general, haunted by the disapproving Kings of Winter and their snarling stone direwolves. Ned, what did you do to make you feel this way? I have no answers, but Ned must have felt it was bad, really bad. Shagging your little sister kind of bad???
Ned has probably the easiest time openings in the pre-rebellion era and even once the rebellion started. All we really know is he was at Harrenhall for the Tourney. He was also upset about Lyanna's crown of roses from Rhaegar, was described as not being as angered as his brother Brandon, he was "calmer, but no more pleased" (TWOIAF) and Ned himself described that moment as the "moment when all the smiles died". So he did not like this happening to Lyanna, but really no reason as to why. Did it insult her honor? Maybe Ned was jealous? Of course, Harrenhal and all it's drama and speculation could fill millions of threads, and is not really what this is about. I think the next we know for sure where Ned is would be when he was in the Eyrie, and Aerys demanded his and Roberts heads. It is not until books later, aDwD I think, that we get the story of Ned, the fisherman's daughter, the three sisters and getting to the North to call his banners. Then we get Ned finally getting south and fighting some battles. Ned's where abouts are more laid out once he marched south, but there are still large gaps. So much is unclear or speculation, including Lyanna's possible location(s).
All we know is Ned loved Lyanna with all his heart, he was with her when she died, he blacked out after her death. Ned loved Lyanna just slightly less than Robert, who was going to marry her. Does this mean that Ned loved her enough to marry her, oops, except he can't because she is his sister? I really don't have a flipping idea, but ... I see parallel with Ned and Jaime all through the novels. So we know that Jaime had a incestuous relationship with his sister, one that Cersei pursued even though Jaime knew it wasn't right, that Jaime and Cersei created Joffrey (as well as Myrcella and Tommen), a relationship so dangerous that it started the War of the Five Kings. So, to parallell this, could Ned and Lyanna have had an incestuous relationship, possibly pursued by Lyanna even though Ned knew it wasn't right, possibly created Jon (and maybe more babes if Lyanna had not died), which just maybe started the war we know as Robert's Rebellion? So...
Can't stop thinking about this for some reason. I mean, Jaime's "by what right does the Wolf judge the Lion" is placed into a very different light if the above is true.
Lot's of wild speculation, I know. But this kicks me in the gut like good old heart burn! Ned's grief, his guilt, his reaction to Cersei in the godswood is gentle and tender. There is the moment of "he felt sick", but there is no clue as to what that means. Sick because of the incest twins, or because he is remembering with shame his own sister loving? When Cersei describes her first night with Robert, and how he drunkenly mauled her while whispering Lyanna, we get "Ned Stark thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep". Why? Because Robert was a rapist? Maybe raped Lyanna, maybe Ned got drunk and forced himself on Lyanna? Maybe Lyanna got drunk and forced herself on Ned? I don't know, but it has always struck me as pretty darn weird. Okay, enough of Neddard!
Our first meeting with Benjen, and he does something that Jon does too. Jon ruffles Ghost's hair. Benjen ruffles Jon's hair. Ghost is Jon's pup. Does this hint that Jon is Benjen's pup? Sneaky old GRRM!
Benjen asks why Jon is not eating with his “brothers”. Jon tells him that Cat thought the royal family might be offended, and Benjen's response is a rather flat “I see,” and a glance back at his brother Ned. Again Benjen seems to be checking up on Jon, trying to make sure that Eddard is treating him like one of the family. As the two had agreed, perhaps.
If Benjen was Jon's father, no wonder he needed a strong drink when that subject came up.
AGoT said:
"You are a boy of fourteen," Benjen said. "Not a man, not yet. Until you have known a woman, you cannot understand what you would be giving up." "I don't care about that!" Jon said hotly. "You might, if you knew what it meant," Benjen said. "If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price, son." Jon felt anger rise inside him. "I'm not your son!" Benjen Stark stood up. "More's the pity." He put a hand on Jon's shoulder. "Come back to me after you've fathered a few bastards of your own, and we'll see how you feel."
Now this really is a telling passage. Benjen went to the wall only a few months after Ned returned from the war, yet he apparently did understand what he was giving up. Maybe this is just something he learned from visits to Mole Town with his new brothers, but it certainly seems to suggest that Benjen had been sexually active before he paid the price. The line “after you've fathered a few bastards of your own” almost sounds like Benjen is saying “like I did”, and Benjen actually calls Jon “Son.” Jon, feeling rejected by Ben trying to talk him out of it, lashes out with “I'm not your son”, and Benjen's reaction is regret. As if the price that Benjen paid included Jon not being his son.
Benjen and Lyanna were close, they were the two children that did not seem to be sent somewhere to be fostered so had time together at Winterfell. In a Bran vision, we get what appears to be Benjen and Lyanna in mock sword play. Maybe that is not all of the sword play they were involved in? I am not sure of their age difference, only that Benjen is referred to as the youngest. It could not have been many years, I would not think. Brandon and Ned are barely a year apart, that could have happened with Lyanna and Benjen. I have wondered if Lyanna and Benjen might be twins. Why that would not have been revealed is hard to say, unless the author is waiting to reveal "hey, the Starks have some incest twins of there own".
Jon and Benjen do have some interesting dialogue during the feast at Winterfell. Benjen does allude to having some bastards, but he also tells Jon when talking about the Nights Watch, "none of us will ever father sons". So, if he already had fathered a son, that doesn't really fit. Jeor Mormont gave up the right to father any more son's after taking the black, but he never denied that he had fathered Jorah, even though Jorah had dishonored House Mormont. I don't think that Benjen fathered Jon, maybe he fathered a bastard daughter and that is what got him sent to the wall. Although, I think in TWOIAF, it talks about a nights watch man at the Harrenhal tourney recruiting at the Stark tents (I can't find the passage right now) but it made me think that Benjen was already thinking about going to the Wall. Why would he leave the sister he was having an affair with, although, if she as leaving to be married soon, he might have decided to leave Winterfell, too. Speculation is a dangerous thing. But, for me, no heartburn here.
In response to Benjen looking toward the raised table that Ned sat at, this was after Jon reported that Lady Stark had not wanted a bastard seated at the royal table. I think that Benjen's look is more toward Catelyn, who I think had a lot to do with Benjen going to the wall when he did, than toward Ned.
Can I ask why you didn't include Rickard? He falls under the same category as Brandon due to (at least perceived) timeline issues, but he at least over Brandon, Benjen, and Lyanna has a factor going for him that we know that he had a particular Stark feature which Jon inherited: the long face
There were three tombs, side by side. Lord Rickard Stark, Ned's father, had a long, stern face. The stonemason had known him well. He sat with quiet dignity, stone fingers holding tight to the sword across his lap, but in life all swords had failed him. In two smaller sepulchres on either side were his children.
Whereas we only know that Brandon had grey eyes, Benjen is gaunt and sharp featured and has blue-grey eyes, and that Lyanna looks like Arya but never has any features actually described. So at least Rickard has a known feature that Jon has, and also being that his children ended up with at least partial Stark features, or in the case of Ned all the Stark features, then he and Lyarra had to have had the full mix at least between them. Which at least can explain how Jon also has the full Stark features
I think the Stark like features that Jon has are very interesting. Dark hair, grey eyes so dark they seemed almost black, long face, slender, dark, graceful and quick. I always noted it, and really enjoyed that he looked like a Stark more than any of the trueborn sons that Catelyn bore Ned, because I don't really like Cat that much and I enjoyed that this pissed her off. Yes, I am that kind of person! But I never thought of it like he is more Stark than any of his siblings be cause he is a Stark/Stark. People seem to think Jon looks like Ned, not Benjen with his hint of laughter blue-grey eyes, which no one every claims about Jon (the laughing eyes part, which always moved me away from Ashara as his mother), just that he looks like Ned, or he looks like Arya who looks like Lyanna. So Jon looks like Ned and Lyanna, hmmm! I have warmed up so much to this theory, I can't hardly believe it. I am not all in, but I am keeping the tums close.
In the end, I have no idea if this could even possibly be true, but I beleive that GRRM is very capable of throwing us a Stark incest angle. He is very bold with incest in the series. The Targaryen incest is accepted if not loved, he gives us Jaime and Cersei, but we don't like it. But there are other incidents, as well, such as when Theon is trying to bang his sister Asha (although in Theon's defense, he did not know Asha was his sister. And actually, Asha doesn't seem to very put off by his attempts either (and she knows Theon is her brother). We have the Gendry maybe banging Bella of the Stoney Sept who claims to be a bastard of Robert Baratheon's, and there is no reason to think she isn't. Of course Gendry and Bella have no idea that they could be siblings. So is more incest in this story possible? Why the heck not!
Also there is the idea in this series of magic in the blood. That is one of the reasons that R+L=J is so fitting, because it's Ice and Fire. Keeping the blood line pure/magic is why the Targaryen's interbred for centuries. The Stark blood is just as special, so maybe what is needed in the story is a very Stark Stark to make the magic of ice and winter!
So, Lyanna with Brandon, Eddard or Benjen are all three real possibilities. But Ned is the only one who is giving me heartburn. One thing that makes me shy away from both Brandon or Benjen and lead toward Ned as Jon's father in this theory, is why did Ned not just say Jon was a bastard of House Stark, either Brandon's or Benjen's, or even Rickard's honestly? But Ned did not do that. He claimed Jon as his son. Catelyn states about Ned bringing Jon to Winterfell, "He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see" (GoT). So Ned could have done something different, but he did not. He made sure everyone in the North knew (and in Westeros, I suppose), knew that Jon Snow was his son. He wanted the North to know that Jon was his. Why so adamant? Maybe because Jon was really his son. Just happened to be by his sister. Yup, eesh! (Although this reasoning has opened the door for Ashara just a bit again, for me)
As theories go, this really isn't a bad one. It certainly deserves far more consideration that it ever receives, and the value in this essay, if nothing else, is to address that imbalance. It doesn't have a mountain of evidence in support, but then it shares that with all the non-RLJ alternatives.
Who know's really was GRRM has up his sleeves for us ...
Can't stop thinking about this for some reason. I mean, Jaime's "by what right does the Wolf judge the Lion" is placed into a very different light if the above is true.
I apologize that this post is so dang long. I actually wanted to say more, but reined it in. In person, I talk to much as well, especially when I am excited about something. Much more wordy than I intended, but the OP really got me into thinking and research mode. I know this thread has been up for a while and maybe people just want the dirty idea to go away, but I think this theory has some merit that needs to be looked at, which is ironic, because I avoided the Stark incest idea for a very long time! And now I have heart burn!
Your evidence is strong and I agree that GRRM is not above this. But, I don't see the narrative logic of it. How does it advance the narrative beyond providing a shock and proving that the Starks also have dirty secrets?
The Targs are a strange Eastern people with foreign customs. (In ancient Egypt, the King sometimes married his son to his daughter). Jaime and Cersei are in love with themselves and see the other as a reflection. Whatever the parentage of Jon, I expect a strong narrative purpose - not necessarily a purpose intended by the characters, but one that will be evident to a careful reader.
I remain open to this theory because Craster. And because I think the message sent by Rhaegar's blue roses was not the message Rhaegar intended. And I have no idea what Crater was attempting to accomplish, what message Rhaegar was attempting to send, or what message the Starks thought he was sending.