Asha doesn't seem to very put off by his attempts either (and she knows Theon is her brother).
Asha is working on a humiliation of Theon, and he feels humiliated when she is revealed as his sister. Asha is allowing Theon to attempt incest, not because she is ok with incest, but because it is not ok.
I think you make the case well that, if S+L=J then S=Eddard
Your evidence is strong and I agree that GRRM is not above this. But, I don't see the narrative logic of it. How does it advance the narrative beyond providing a shock and proving that the Starks also have dirty secrets?
The Targs are a strange Eastern people with foreign customs. (In ancient Egypt, the King sometimes married his son to his daughter). Jaime and Cersei are in love with themselves and see the other as a reflection. Whatever the parentage of Jon, I expect a strong narrative purpose - not necessarily a purpose intended by the characters, but one that will be evident to a careful reader.
While GRRM is certainly not afraid to shock us, I think if this happened, it would have to be because there is something special in the blood of these people, and maybe the story needs someone with pure Stark blood to fullfil some part of this mystery.
Asha is working on a humiliation of Theon, and he feels humiliated when she is revealed as his sister. Asha is allowing Theon to attempt incest, not because she is ok with incest, but because it is not ok.
Yes, I agree. Asha is playing a game with Theon. She is trying to unbalance him, which she does. It is just another look at how incest or the idea of incest, pops up in the series.
I think you make the case well that, if S+L=J then S=Eddard
A couple weeks ago, I would not have even tolerated thinking about this idea, and now I see how it is possible. Not probable, but possible. That is the greatness of GRRM's story, all the possibilities he has seeded into his story!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
I do not want to be a turncloak to TeamDayne, but on my current reread, Benjen+Lyanna has really stood out to me. Forgive me if I touch upon points you have already covered. Still catching up...
I have many thoughts on this to be honest. I should probably write them up in an OP of their own. There are a lot of citations that point in this direction.
Benjen and Lyanna were close, they were the two children that did not seem to be sent somewhere to be fostered so had time together at Winterfell. In a Bran vision, we get what appears to be Benjen and Lyanna in mock sword play. Maybe that is not all of the sword play they were involved in? I am not sure of their age difference, only that Benjen is referred to as the youngest. It could not have been many years, I would not think. Brandon and Ned are barely a year apart, that could have happened with Lyanna and Benjen. I have wondered if Lyanna and Benjen might be twins. Why that would not have been revealed is hard to say, unless the author is waiting to reveal "hey, the Starks have some incest twins of there own".
Yup. And I think this gets to the meat of kingmonkey 's essay.
There are some odd holes in our information. Benjen's age is one of them, and it seems highly likely that Ben and Lya were very close in age. markg171 may have some intel on that front.
Jon and Benjen do have some interesting dialogue during the feast at Winterfell. Benjen does allude to having some bastards, but he also tells Jon when talking about the Nights Watch, "none of us will ever father sons". So, if he already had fathered a son, that doesn't really fit. Jeor Mormont gave up the right to father any more son's after taking the black, but he never denied that he had fathered Jorah, even though Jorah had dishonored House Mormont. I don't think that Benjen fathered Jon, maybe he fathered a bastard daughter and that is what got him sent to the wall.
I would argue that "siring" a son and "fathering" a son are two completely different things.
Ben could have sired Jon, but never been a father to him. And if Ben is Jon's father that clearly happened. For all intents and purposes, Ned was Jon's "father."
Although, I think in TWOIAF, it talks about a nights watch man at the Harrenhal tourney recruiting at the Stark tents (I can't find the passage right now) but it made me think that Benjen was already thinking about going to the Wall. Why would he leave the sister he was having an affair with, although, if she as leaving to be married soon, he might have decided to leave Winterfell, too. Speculation is a dangerous thing. But, for me, no heartburn here.
There are many reasons why this might actually work.
First, as a Stark, Benjen may have been compelled to take the black simply because he had defiled his sister. Self-exile, and a way to retain some sense of Stark Honor.
It is noteworthy that Benjen is invited back to Winterfell often enough for his nieces and nephews to have a familial relationship with him. Ned still looks upon Benjen as a man worthy of a place at the high table.
Considering how prickly both Ned and Benjen are in their honor and duty, that fact alone tells us quite a bit.
Jaime and Cersei, if a neat parallel, provide another angle. By taking the white, and becoming a knight of the kingsguard, Jaime will never have to to marry a woman he does not love. If Ben had remained un-Sworn to the Night's Watch, he would have been expected to marry as well. And while we know little of Benjen's true age, we know that he (like Jon) joined the Night's Watch when quite young.
If, upon Ned's return home, Ned had told his younger brother that their beloved sister had died, that alone might be enough reason for Ben to take the black.
Oh, and here's the passage you were talking about:
A Storm of Swords - Bran II "That evening there was to be a feast in Harrenhal, to mark the opening of the tourney, and the she-wolf insisted that the lad attend. He was of high birth, with as much a right to a place on the bench as any other man. She was not easy to refuse, this wolf maid, so he let the young pup find him garb suitable to a king's feast, and went up to the great castle. "Under Harren's roof he ate and drank with the wolves, and many of their sworn swords besides, barrowdown men and moose and bears and mermen. The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head. A black brother spoke, asking the knights to join the Night's Watch. The storm lord drank down the knight of skulls and kisses in a wine-cup war. The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.
In response to Benjen looking toward the raised table that Ned sat at, this was after Jon reported that Lady Stark had not wanted a bastard seated at the royal table. I think that Benjen's look is more toward Catelyn, who I think had a lot to do with Benjen going to the wall when he did, than toward Ned.
Nah. Ned barely knew Cat when Ben went to the Wall. And we don't necessarily know that he was sent to the Wall. I'm thinking that a voluntary enlistment makes more sense with this line of thought.
Also there is the idea in this series of magic in the blood. That is one of the reasons that R+L=J is so fitting, because it's Ice and Fire. Keeping the blood line pure/magic is why the Targaryen's interbred for centuries. The Stark blood is just as special, so maybe what is needed in the story is a very Stark Stark to make the magic of ice and winter!
Yes, this is kind of the direction I'm leaning as well.
Your evidence is strong and I agree that GRRM is not above this. But, I don't see the narrative logic of it. How does it advance the narrative beyond providing a shock and proving that the Starks also have dirty secrets?
I think it might work for the reasons in bold above. And there is also this:
"Let me give you some counsel, bastard," Lannister said. "Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armor yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you."
Which I think comes to pass, eventually. It would also fit GRRM's style to empower a man born of such bastardy in spite of such incest, rather than having the blood of kings. GRRM is not fond of kings.
Post by silentmajority on Jan 8, 2017 17:47:11 GMT
voice,The hole in your inbred Stark theory is why would Ned have married Catelyn if their blood needed to be pure? Wouldn’t Sansa have been meant to wed Rob? I don’t think that the Targarians needed to inbreed to keep the blood pure. I think it was just something that came to be believed. Like in some places in the Middle East if you have a broken bone they will smear egg whites on the break to aid in healing.
However for the sake of argument lets say that Dany is 100% pure Targarian and Jon is 100% pure Stark. Could it be that Jon and Dany hook up. Dany gets pregnant and then a little demon child crawls out of her uterus with a flaming sword to save everyone? Everyone dies as the worlds savior is born.
voice,The hole in your inbred Stark theory is why would Ned have married Catelyn if their blood needed to be pure?
Nope. Not a hole at all. I never claimed Starks have a pure-blood obsession the way Targs do. And Ned was not a man for magic and prophecies. He had no faith in signs and portents.
So to the contrary, Benjen+Lyanna would have been an exception, not the norm. And this angle would go a very long way in explaining Ned's "wolf blood" comment.
However for the sake of argument lets say that Dany is 100% pure Targarian and Jon is 100% pure Stark. Could it be that Jon and Dany hook up. Dany gets pregnant and then a little demon child crawls out of her uterus with a flaming sword to save everyone? Everyone dies as the worlds savior is born.
End of story. Bittersweet ending?
Or is that too creepy for even George to write?
Not at all. In fact, I think you've just described The Pale Child Bakkalon. You can see his picture here:
I would argue that "siring" a son and "fathering" a son are two completely different things.
Ben could have sired Jon, but never been a father to him. And if Ben is Jon's father that clearly happened. For all intents and purposes, Ned was Jon's "father."
This is certainly the type of distinction I could see from GRRM. Absolute possibility.
Nah. Ned barely knew Cat when Ben went to the Wall. And we don't necessarily know that he was sent to the Wall. I'm thinking that a voluntary enlistment makes more sense with this line of thought.
My idea about Catelyn possibly having a hand in Benjen going to the wall is based on how Catelyn and Maester Luwin manipulated Ned into seeing that the best place for Jon was at the Wall. We know that Jon has expressed interest in going to the wall, whether Benjen told Luwin or Luwin has spies aware of the conversation between Jon and Benjen.
In Meera's Knight of the Laughing Tree story, she states "A black brother spoke, asking the knights to join the Nights Watch" Bran II-aSoS, and I always thought this caught Benjen's interest; wild speculation, I know. Later in aSoS when Catelyn and Robb are talking about naming his heir, Catelyn shows how she would prefer a rather a distant relative in the Vale to be a preferable heir to Jon, because she feared Jon, or one of his son's or grandson's, challenging the right of her true-born heirs right to Winterfell and the north. We know from this exchange (which I am too lazy to type up) that Catelyn did not like the idea of someone possibly stealing her children's birthright and was not unwilling to make sure her heirs were safe.
In the vein of more wild speculation, I propose that Catelyn wanted Benjen gone from Winterfell and not having heirs that could challenge the rights of her own children. Thus she and Luwin manipulated Ned into allowing Benjen to go to the wall, where his vows ensured he would never have a true born heir. This is based on the idea that Benjen showed some prior interest in the Wall, just as Jon showed some interest. GRRM uses repeats over and over in his story, I felt like the smoothness in the way Cat and Luwin manipulated Ned into agreeing to let Jon go to the wall was because they had already practiced it once with Benjen.
Although, Benjen could have done something to make both he and Ned feel like Benjen needed to go to the wall. I just don't get the idea of shame about Benjen from either Ned or Benjen. That is entirely possible and we don't have enough information yet in the text to decide, either way.
Nope. Not a hole at all. I never claimed Starks have a pure-blood obsession the way Targs do. And Ned was not a man for magic and prophecies. He had no faith in signs and portents.
Ned certainly did not seem to believe in or even recognize fate, prophecy, magic, etc, and I would like to reach into the pages and shake him. It is almost as if he refuses to believe such things. We don't know how Lyanna or Benjen feel about these things, but maybe Lyanna was the believer, and she instigated whatever happened to produce an incest Stark/Stark baby. (Cersei seduced Jaime, and I do think parallel's between the two families are important if this theory is to work). Lyanna did spend some time with Howland Reed at Harrenhal and I assume he has greensight ability just like Jojen, so maybe he convinced her of some vision he had of the future. I am on board the Wild Speculation Train these days!
Some very important things happened at Harrenhall, some of which we know about but do not have enough information to really understand, and I think more happened that we are not yet aware of at all, to even allow us to speculate about.
So to the contrary, Benjen+Lyanna would have been an exception, not the norm. And this angle would go a very long way in explaining Ned's "wolf blood" comment.
I believe Ned says that Brandon and Lyanna had wolf blood that led them to an early grave. I don't think he never says this about Benjen. Nor does he see it in himself, but Ned certainly feels strong emotions and has a temper, as in "his fury was on him" Catelyn II-aGoT when he is worried about Jon's fate, as well as the time he scared Catelyn so bad she never again asked about Jon's mother. Maybe they all had a bit of that dangerous, wild aspect to their blood. It is hard to recognize those less desirable traits in ourselves than others.
The Stark blood is just as special, so maybe what is needed in the story is a very Stark Stark to make the magic of ice and winter!
Yes, this is kind of the direction I'm leaning as well.
A lot comes back to the blood for me. It seems like GRRM writes to show us that blood is important, so it has to have a payoff in the end. That is one of the reason that R+l=J fit so nicely, (also it matches the book series title like a glove) and I believed it to be true for a long time. But maybe it's not as simple as that, and why should it be? That is why I have been recently looking into other parentage options for Jon and Dany again, after five-ish years of having had my mind made up. It does not seem like GRRM is a fan of simple at all. Or protecting the feelings of his readers. So Starkcest would not be simple or easy on the reader!
Which I think comes to pass, eventually. It would also fit GRRM's style to empower a man born of such bastardy in spite of such incest, rather than having the blood of kings. GRRM is not fond of kings.
I think his idea's of Kings are mixed. After all, he has that darn raven yelling "king, king" at Jon often enough. And the Starks do carry the blood of the Kings of Winter in their veins.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
The hole in your inbred Stark theory is why would Ned have married Catelyn if their blood needed to be pure? Wouldn’t Sansa have been meant to wed Rob? I don’t think that the Targarians needed to inbreed to keep the blood pure. I think it was just something that came to be believed. Like in some places in the Middle East if you have a broken bone they will smear egg whites on the break to aid in healing.
Actually, Ned doesn't believe in this kind of stuff. And he married Catelyn because his rebellion needed her fathers army, which is the same reason Jon Arryn married Cat's sister Lysa. It was necessary for their rebellion and their lives. The story operates on many levels, such as politics and power, magic and prophecy, faith and knowledge, etc. This idea of the power of the blood operates on a different level than power of politics.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Well how about: “The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words.”
I can't see why Ned would feel a sense of shame when thinking about Jon if Benjen was the culprit (I discount Brandon as he was apparently already dead). But personal shame, i can see that.
I have usually leaned on the side on Benjen being the culprit in the Starkincest proposal. Same age, plenty of time together, exile at the Wall etc. But Benjen does make it clear that he had no part in it:
Jon felt anger rise inside him. "I'm not your son!" Benjen Stark stood up. "More's the pity."
Old guilts:
It beat down on Ned's head, warm as blood and relentless as old guilts.
so he does have 'old guilts'... it can't be the beheading of Gared or of Lady, these are recent guilts. What could he have done long ago that is still gnawing at him? it must have been really bad... ... guilty of a shameful act?
Broken promises?
When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises.
surely not this one:
"She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes.
from this text, it seems Lyanna made him promise to take her home. As far as we know he did. Do we have proof? no one has opened the sarcophagus yet.
This may have been a different promise, such as 'take care of the baby'; if so, he did that too.
If Robert had known the baby was Ned's would he have killed both? quite possibly, ultimate betrayal. Hence, 'don't tell Robert or he will kill him'; if so, he did that too:
"You avenged Lyanna at the Trident," Ned said, halting beside the king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered.
in other words, 'say no more' Ned. Cut the story short.
He may have promised Lyanna to tell Jon about his parentage. That, he did not do.
The timeline is tricky? has anyone ever sorted out the 'Rebellion' timeline? if so, let's have it. We know the timeline of Mormont's 'great ranging' is dubious, so what's a few months here and there? (in the early books, GRRM did not close them by writing 'that was a bitch'; he did that in the latter ones which indicates he tightened up his writings).
Jon is the embodiment of ice and fire. Why him? There are 3 heads in this story: Jon, Dany, Tyrion. Not forgetting Aegon who has a song of ice and fire just for himself. Ice and fire represent the white walkers and the dragons. The LOA and Asshai. The glaciations and the volcanic mayhems. The Kings of Winter and the Dragonlords, Starks and Targaryens. Not just Jon. (BTW, where does that leave the Lannisters?)
So Jon is 'ice', magic 'ice'. It is in his blood (even more than Bran). Blood is important in this story. The Starks have blood from the crannogmen (who performed magic) and from the Warg King's daughters.
The pope (that's GRRM) tells us that Jon is Ned's son, so 'pourquoi chercher midi a quatorze heures'? why chase the wild goose down the rabbit hole?
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
All this talk in the belief in blood being important... just leads us back to the philosophical idea that having the "right blood" matters, which if course leads us to believing "the right blood should rule".
And that is antithetical to the entirety of the message of the rest of the story.
In the end I'm going to put my money on people believing blood matters, but we the readers realizing/finding out it really doesn't (while the characters...and some readers... remain clueless).
I think if this happened, it would have to be because there is something special in the blood of these people, and maybe the story needs someone with pure Stark blood to fullfil some part of this mystery.
Agreed. However, "pure" is always a matter of degree. Unless something Craster-like has been going in the Stark lineage, each of Jon's parents is only half Stark.
"Let me give you some counsel, bastard," Lannister said. "Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armor yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you."
Which I think comes to pass, eventually. It would also fit GRRM's style to empower a man born of such bastardy in spite of such incest, rather than having the blood of kings. GRRM is not fond of kings.
It would make Jon the opposite of the bred Messiah that R+L is supposed to produce, wouldn't it? It could fit GRRM as breaker of tropes.
But if S+L is true, would Ned have promised Jon that he would tell him who his mother is the next time they met? He is committing himself to tell Jon that he is the product of incest. It seems unlikely unless Jon needs to know of some breeding program (putting him back into the category of the bred Messiah).
All this talk in the belief in blood being important... just leads us back to the philosophical idea that having the "right blood" matters, which if course leads us to believing "the right blood should rule".
And that is antithetical to the entirety of the message of the rest of the story.
In the end I'm going to put my money on people believing blood matters, but we the readers realizing/finding out it really doesn't (while the characters...and some readers... remain clueless).
I quite agree. And rather than see Benjen+Lyanna as a prophetic blood-match, I think it was a lustful bit of wolf-blood that led to verboten incest.
So not a quest for blood purity, just some messed up shit that might lead us to consider Cersei as an archetype for Lyanna. Cersei was not seeking uber-Lannisters, she just wanted to fuck her brother. LOL
It would make Jon the opposite of the bred Messiah that R+L is supposed to produce, wouldn't it? It could fit GRRM as breaker of tropes.
It could. But more than merely be a breaker of tropes, GRRM toys with such messiahs often in his 1000 worlds series. Heroes quickly learn they are quite mortal. Noble men quickly learn they are savage. If you've not read them, I highly reccomend the series. They are all quite short, and you will recognize many of the characters. There is a Jon, who lives in the north and tells stories like Old Nan. There is a Lyanna, who is a passionate lover, but ends up in some trouble, Varys, Littlefinger... GRRM has written them all before.
But if S+L is true, would Ned have promised Jon that he would tell him who his mother is the next time they met? He is committing himself to tell Jon that he is the product of incest. It seems unlikely unless Jon needs to know of some breeding program (putting him back into the category of the bred Messiah).
Ned made that promise in the show, not the books.
And if you read Martin's other works, you will find that he loathes messianic figures, and quickly flays their mystique. Each is revealed as a charlatan, which Jon is certainly not. Jon Snow is the anti-messiah (not an anti-christ, but a pragmatist) in my opinion.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I quite agree. And rather than see Benjen+Lyanna as a prophetic blood-match, I think it was a lustful bit of wolf-blood that led to verboten incest.
So not a quest for blood purity, just some messed up shit that might lead us to consider Cersei as an archetype for Lyanna. Cersei was not seeking uber-Lannisters, she just wanted to fuck her brother. LOL
I haven't ruled any of the Stark brothers out of the running as Lyanna's baby dady (sounds so gross) however my money is on good, honorable, quiet Ned.
I would bet the idea of this union if it happened and produced Jon, was based on lust, base animal instinct (and not like warged wolves in the woods). People make choices all the time based on alcohol or drugs, full-moon madness, mistaken identity, etc. It might have just happened to produce Jon, a stark of unparalleled Starkness. Lust/love is what fanned the Cercei/Jaime affair, so it makes sense it would if this Stark incest theory is correct.
When looking at Ned, we see early in aGoT that Ned and Cat seem to have a healthy sexual life. She describes "Ned rolled off and climbed from her bed, as he had a thousand times before"Catelyn II-aGoT, so they have sex often enough in their marriage. It maybe seems a little missionary all the time, but who am I to judge. It sets the precident that they are young, healthy, and attracted enough to each other to have sex at least a thousand times, which if I break it down math wise, is a time or two a week for their whole marriage, but more often probably when taking time off for her late pregnancy and post-partum period, when he was off to war or is off chasing down the Jorah Mormont's of the world.
"Her loins still ached from the urgency of his lovemaking. It was a good ache. She could feel his seed within her. She prayed it might quicken there" Catelyn II-aGoT. They are both thinking after sex, she about producing another child and he about rejecting Robert's offer to be hand of the king. I just love that it shows how different people can be after a close, intimate experience. Neither seem carried away by passion, but I guess it has been 14 years, after all.
I think Ned feels less lust for Cat than she does for him, but that is a personal opinion. When they met in Littlefinger's brother, he is almost geeky awkward and formal with her, holding her hand, calling her "my lady", and they both turn down Litterfinger's offer of a bed. Really? You haven't seen each other for months and probably won't see each other again for who know's how long! I wish they would have taken Littlefinger up on his offer, as I like to imagine the painful, scrunched up look on Baelish's face as he knows Ned is getting jiggy with the love of his life under his own roof. Ned, you disappointed me here!
We know Ned feels lust or at least understands it, the emotion and visceral feeling, because he thinks of it after visiting the brothel with Littlefinger. "Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?" Eddard IX-aGoT. I have looked at this passage many times, with it following closely by Ned thinking of Rhaegar for the first time in years, as a reason that Jon is not Rhaegar's son, but maybe Ned's or Robert's. In this case, I will use it in the sense that Ned felt lust, remembers lust, associates it with bastards and Jon Snow. Who did Ned feel such lust/passion for? Ashara, Wylla, Lyannna? Cat probably at some point, but we know she is not Jonno's mother! But Ned felt it for someone, bad enough to have created his bastard son.
Now, this doesn't really settle anything when it comes to the Stark brothers and the possibilities, it is just one of the reasons I think Ned has a strong chance of being the brother guilty of incest. I think it at least indicates that Ned felt some strongly lustful feelings at some point in his life and still feels guilty about it. It doesn't indicate Lyanna at all, or any woman, just that Ned felt lust that in his mind leads him to think of Jon.
It could. But more than merely be a breaker of tropes, GRRM toys with such messiahs often in his 1000 worlds series. Heroes quickly learn they are quite mortal. Noble men quickly learn they are savage. If you've not read them, I highly reccomend the series. They are all quite short, and you will recognize many of the characters. There is a Jon, who lives in the north and tells stories like Old Nan. There is a Lyanna, who is a passionate lover, but ends up in some trouble, Varys, Littlefinger... GRRM has written them all before.
Good grief! I very rarely watch the show. It should have been never. My memory muddles things so badly. And I think I have made this same mistake before
And if you read Martin's other works, you will find that he loathes messianic figures, and quickly flays their mystique. Each is revealed as a charlatan, which Jon is certainly not. Jon Snow is the anti-messiah (not an anti-christ, but a pragmatist) in my opinion.
I been intending for several years to read some of his other stuff.
So not a quest for blood purity, just some messed up shit that might lead us to consider Cersei as an archetype for Lyanna. Cersei was not seeking uber-Lannisters, she just wanted to fuck her brother. LOL
In Cersei's case, it is a reflection of the fact that Cersei is in love with Cersei. Do you think that is an aspect of Lyanna that we are missing?