His eyes found hers, and she could see how hard it took him, as she had known it would. In his youth, Ned had fostered at the Eyrie, and the childless Lord Arryn had become a second father to him and his fellow ward, Robert Baratheon. When the Mad King Aerys II Targaryen had demanded their heads, the Lord of the Eyrie had raised his moon-and-falcon banners in revolt rather than give up those he had pledged to protect.
And one day fifteen years ago, this second father had become a brother as well, as he and Ned stood together in the sept at Riverrun to wed two sisters, the daughters of Lord Hoster Tully.
“Jon …” he said. “Is this news certain?”“It was the king’s seal, and the letter is in Robert’s own hand. I saved it for you. He said Lord Arryn was taken quickly. Even Maester Pycelle was helpless, but he brought the milk of the poppy, so Jon did not linger long in pain.”
I've been contemplating these quotes a bit. Really there's not a whole lot to be able to pick apart here. If anything, these few sentences are dense with information. Five new characters and their respective relationships are introduced. Plus information on their history as well as how each related to one another. Plus we're given a fair amount of reason to like and respect Jon Arryn just from what we see in Ned's reaction to his death as well as what is recounted historically. I'm actually amazed at how much information is snuck in there.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
I was looking at the phrasing for that earlier myself. I took it to mean something along the lines of a ritual cleansing of the soul, probably similar to a modern day confessional or reconciliation sacrament. Though it might have been justified, Ned still took the life of another man. Christianity's Ten Commandments specify. Thou shalt not kill. Doesn't say except for in cases of punishment, etc. Ned takes his gods quite seriously and I could see this as something that he might feel the need to make atonement for. His priest and confessional just happen to be the heart tree in front of the cold, black pond in the Winterfell godswood.
Interesting idea--am wondering if this could be tied to the idea that you're not supposed to be able to lie in front of a hearth tree.
The laws of "killing" and execution--we talked about this a bit in the "Bran I" forensic file. But seems like even killing with what Ned deems the proper authority (even though he's doing it in Robert's name) still requires "cleansing." An accounting of some sort before the old gods?
hunting, whatevs). The steam bath variety is well known, but some tribes also employed hot springs for the same purpose.
It's even reminds me of the purification rituals after childbirth. Ned may not like doing this, but he doesn't act like this is somehow wrong. A righteous act--that still requires purification? Maybe?
If Dany had sacrificed herself, instead of her child, he may well have grown into A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him.
Perhaps Lyanna, unlike Dany, did sacrifice herself...and thereby created a northern lordling armored in black ice with a burning sword.
Possible. Though with both Dany and Lyanna, the specificity of the sacrifice doesn't seem premeditated. Still, as Ygritte says, "the gods hate knislayers, even when they kill unknowing."
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Is the Godswood, their kind of equivalent of a Garden of Eden I wonder? Something to chew on a bit.
Yup! Even reminds me of my rough Kubla Khan comparison I did over on Heresy: Kubla has a walled garden--sacred, but cultivated. But the "deep romantic chasm"--the wild natural place--that's where the real power is: "as holy and enchanted as e'er beneath a waning moon was haunted by woman wailing for her demon lover." The power is in god's nature. Enter the realm of the gods.
The other version, of course, is ascending the mountain. Hmmm. . . would that apply to the Vale? Or the Red Mountains?
I've been contemplating these quotes a bit. Really there's not a whole lot to be able to pick apart here. If anything, these few sentences are dense with information. Five new characters and their respective relationships are introduced. Plus information on their history as well as how each related to one another. Plus we're given a fair amount of reason to like and respect Jon Arryn just from what we see in Ned's reaction to his death as well as what is recounted historically. I'm actually amazed at how much information is snuck in there.
The bit about the brothers--I'd forgotten that. So, sounds like "kin" applies to in-laws, yes? And helps explain even further why Ned is willing to go against all he knows and go south.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
“That is some small mercy, I suppose,”he said. She could see the grief on his face, but even then he thought first of her. “Your sister,”he said. “And Jon’s boy. What word of them?”
“The message said only that they were well, and had returned to the Eyrie,” Catelyn said. “I wish they had gone to Riverrun instead. The Eyrie is high and lonely, and it was ever her husband’s place, not hers. Lord Jon’s memory will haunt each stone. I know my sister. She needs the comfort of family and friends around her.”
“Your uncle waits in the Vale, does he not? Jon named him Knight of the Gate, I’d heard.” Catelyn nodded. “Brynden will do what he can for her, and for the boy. That is some comfort, but still …”“Go to her,” Ned urged. “Take the children. Fill her halls with noise and shouts and laughter. That boy of hers needs other children about him , and Lysa should not be alone in her grief.”
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
“That is some small mercy, I suppose,”he said. She could see the grief on his face, but even then he thought first of her. “Your sister,”he said. “And Jon’s boy. What word of them?”
They really understand a lot about each other, for all of the future trouble.
“The message said only that they were well, and had returned to the Eyrie,” Catelyn said. “I wish they had gone to Riverrun instead. The Eyrie is high and lonely, and it was ever her husband’s place, not hers. Lord Jon’s memory will haunt each stone. I know my sister. She needs the comfort of family and friends around her.”
This really was an early indicator that something was up--why didn't Lysa go home? Because she was waiting for Baelish. And didnt' want her father or anyone else. As Cat learns when she gets to the Eyrie later. Lisa had her comfort--at least she thought so.
“Your uncle waits in the Vale, does he not? Jon named him Knight of the Gate, I’d heard.” Catelyn nodded. “Brynden will do what he can for her, and for the boy. That is some comfort, but still …”“Go to her,” Ned urged. “Take the children. Fill her halls with noise and shouts and laughter. That boy of hers needs other children about him , and Lysa should not be alone in her grief.”
That actually might have been a good move for Robin. To meet and play with sane healthy children.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Yup! Even reminds me of my rough Kubla Khan comparison I did over on Heresy: Kubla has a walled garden--sacred, but cultivated. But the "deep romantic chasm"--the wild natural place--that's where the real power is: "as holy and enchanted as e'er beneath a waning moon was haunted by woman wailing for her demon lover." The power is in god's nature. Enter the realm of the gods.
The other version, of course, is ascending the mountain. Hmmm. . . would that apply to the Vale? Or the Red Mountains?
I've been contemplating that a lot lately. It does fit well. As for the mountains, I'd like to say both, but for some reason it feels more accurate for the Vale.
They really understand a lot about each other, for all of the future trouble.
They've both taken the time to understand what is important to the other. Unfortunately, that strong relationship turns out to be a detriment to both. They are both too dedicated to family and honor in general to put together the pieces and predict the actions of those who are not.
This really was an early indicator that something was up--why didn't Lysa go home? Because she was waiting for Baelish. And didnt' want her father or anyone else. As Cat learns when she gets to the Eyrie later. Lisa had her comfort--at least she thought so.
It's amazing how little Cat understands Lysa after having supposedly growing up close. Or maybe it's just underestimating the unknown impact of Littlefinger. How far in the clouds did Catelyn's head have to be to miss all of the drama and resentment swirling around her and miss Petyr's impact on Lysa. Or was the timing just bad that she was distracted by Brandon's death?
“Would that I could,” Catelyn said. “The letter had other tidings. The king is riding to Winterfell to seek you out.” It took Ned a moment to comprehend her words, but when the understanding came, the darkness left his eyes. “Robert is coming here ?” When she nodded, a smile broke across his face.
Catelyn wished she could share his joy. But she had heard the talk in the yards; a direwolf dead in the snow, a broken antler in its throat. Dread coiled within her like a snake, but she forced herself to smile at this man she loved, this man who put no faith in signs. “ I knew that would please you,” she said. “We should send word to your brother on the Wall.”
“Yes, of course,” he agreed. “Ben will want to be here. I shall tell Maester Luwin to send his swiftest bird.” Ned rose and pulled her to her feet. “Damnation, how many years has it been? And he gives us no more notice than this? How many in his party, did the message say?”
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
Benjen knew Robert well enough before Ben became a Watch man. Probably visits to the Eyrie and Robert visiting Winterfell with Ned. If Robert knew Ben well enough that Ben would come down from the Wall to visit, then I am sure Robert knew Lyanna well too.
Or at least well enough to want to see each other.
“Would that I could,” Catelyn said. “The letter had other tidings. The king is riding to Winterfell to seek you out.” It took Ned a moment to comprehend her words, but when the understanding came, the darkness left his eyes. “Robert is coming here ?” When she nodded, a smile broke across his face.
Hmmm. . . .Ned executes a man in Robert's name. It troubles him. But then Robert's coming to see him. . . and the trouble is gone.
Ned loves the brother he has in Robert. But Robert as king=trouble.
Catelyn wished she could share his joy. But she had heard the talk in the yards; a direwolf dead in the snow, a broken antler in its throat. Dread coiled within her like a snake, but she forced herself to smile at this man she loved, this man who put no faith in signs. “ I knew that would please you,” she said. “We should send word to your brother on the Wall.”
So, Cat feels like a stranger in the godswood, but knows how to look for omens? An odd mix. . .
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Benjen knew Robert well enough before Ben became a Watch man. Probably visits to the Eyrie and Robert visiting Winterfell with Ned. If Robert knew Ben well enough that Ben would come down from the Wall to visit, then I am sure Robert knew Lyanna well too.
Hmmm. . . .Ned executes a man in Robert's name. It troubles him. But then Robert's coming to see him. . . and the trouble is gone.
Ned loves the brother he has in Robert. But Robert as king=trouble.
Indeed. And, Ned seems to stop mourning awfully quickly for his foster father in this paragraph. This leads me to a few different questions. The first, is that I wonder if Cat misinterpreted Ned's first impression of hearing about JA's death, and I've often toyed with the idea that it could have been sheer surprise, then relief.
The second question, is I wonder how long it took for King Robert's raven to reach Winterfell. Ned decides to send Benjen his swiftest bird, and I can't help but think KL has fast birds as well. The reason I bring this up, is that I'd like to know if Gared was was taken outside the small holdfast at around the same time as Lysa poisoned Jon... and if they ended up being killed at around the same moment. Another, less likely candidate would be Ser Waymar, but that depends on how long it took for Gared to approach Winterfell.
So, Cat feels like a stranger in the godswood, but knows how to look for omens? An odd mix. . .
Odd indeed... or is it?
Per the 1993 synopsis, she was destined to become a wight north of the Wall (instead of a hot corpse south of it). In either instance, Cat eventually becomes The Stranger. And, I think the godswood has a way of knowing such fates. Cat feels the truth of the omen (one of the few interps I agree with her on), and she feels the truth of being The Stonehearted Stranger in Winterfell. One need only look at the way she treated Jon, the weir-wolf, to know she bears some contempt for the Old Gods. I think her abandonment of Winterfell itself, the den of her youngest children (the 'Summer' and 'Wild' wolf pups), also speaks to this estrangement.
All her adult life, Catelyn Stark thought Jon Snow was The Stranger in Winterfell, but it turns out it was her all along. Just as the heart tree is Winterfell, so 'is' Jon 'the heart tree'. Cat feels unwelcome because she is the Stranger, and she cannot face his long (face) slow thoughts.
That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady." She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne's name was never heard in Winterfell again.
The blood of the First Men still flows through the veins of the Starks, and Jon is the wolf with a heart tree's face.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Random musing, wonder what that means for babes whose mothers die in childbirth? Willing sacrifice or unintended murder?
Yes--the question of kinslaying and curses seems really hard to manage--at what point does it become a problem if "gods hate kinslayers, even when they kill unknowing?" As a rule, in regions with heavy intermarriage, seems like it's almost impossible to figure out. Though that might be the point.
I've been contemplating that a lot lately. It does fit well. As for the mountains, I'd like to say both, but for some reason it feels more accurate for the Vale.
Considering that Martin's actually got a POV there, I'd agree. Plus he has stakes there with Sansa. And Ned got out of the Eyrie via the mountains to the Sisters, escaping when Aerys called for his head. I'm assuming that little detail is likely to have more significance than just another misdirect re: Jon's parentage.
They've both taken the time to understand what is important to the other. Unfortunately, that strong relationship turns out to be a detriment to both. They are both too dedicated to family and honor in general to put together the pieces and predict the actions of those who are not.
Huh--I'd not thought of that. But you're right. Their strengths used against them. Especially by Baelish.
It's amazing how little Cat understands Lysa after having supposedly growing up close. Or maybe it's just underestimating the unknown impact of Littlefinger. How far in the clouds did Catelyn's head have to be to miss all of the drama and resentment swirling around her and miss Petyr's impact on Lysa. Or was the timing just bad that she was distracted by Brandon's death?
Siblings can underestimate situation all the time. And then Brandon's dead. And she's marrying a stranger and pregnant with his child while he's off at war. . . as you say, a teenager can be distracted . . .
And in the end, it was Lysa with her head in the clouds (I should be shot for that pun.)
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Indeed. And, Ned seems to stop mourning awfully quickly for his foster father in this paragraph. This leads me to a few different questions. The first, is that I wonder if Cat misinterpreted Ned's first impression of hearing about JA's death, and I've often toyed with the idea that it could have been sheer surprise, then relief.
Or just resignation? Jon Arryn was no spring chicken when he married Lysa years earlier. His dying couldn't have been that huge of a shock--given the time period and the mortality rates. . .
The second question, is I wonder how long it took for King Robert's raven to reach Winterfell. Ned decides to send Benjen his swiftest bird, and I can't help but think KL has fast birds as well. The reason I bring this up, is that I'd like to know if Gared was was taken outside the small holdfast at around the same time as Lysa poisoned Jon... and if they ended up being killed at around the same moment. Another, less likely candidate would be Ser Waymar, but that depends on how long it took for Gared to approach Winterfell.
That would be fabulous symmetry. Not sure how we'd figure it out, though.
In either instance, Cat eventually becomes The Stranger. And, I think the godswood has a way of knowing such fates. Cat feels the truth of the omen (one of the few interps I agree with her on), and she feels the truth of being The Stonehearted Stranger in Winterfell. One need only look at the way she treated Jon, the weir-wolf, to know she bears some contempt for the Old Gods. I think her abandonment of Winterfell itself, the den of her youngest children (the 'Summer' and 'Wild' wolf pups), also speaks to this estrangement.
All her adult life, Catelyn Stark thought Jon Snow was The Stranger in Winterfell, but it turns out it was her all along. Just as the heart tree is Winterfell, so 'is' Jon 'the heart tree'. Cat feels unwelcome because she is the Stranger, and she cannot face his long (face) slow thoughts.
Nice--it makes a nice twist: the face of the Stranger is often covered. But in this case, the future Stranger can't see behind the tree face.
Fits also with her moment seeing the Stranger with the star eyes in that sept. And the way the "return" of her life is a kind of death. What is the Stranger if not death--living?
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Or just resignation? Jon Arryn was no spring chicken when he married Lysa years earlier. His dying couldn't have been that huge of a shock--given the time period and the mortality rates. . .
That would be fabulous symmetry. Not sure how we'd figure it out, though.
Yup, it's a bit crackpot trying to connect those particular dots. But I still like to ::crackpot::
The ravens alone give me reason to wonder. Dark wings, dark words... Wings drink the wind...and Words are wind. Jon Arryn is killed. Dark wings carry wind, and find Ned cleaning Gared's blood from off his sword beneath the heart tree. His first impulse is then to send dark wings carrying wind to his Brother on the Wall. Then, a black crow who flew down off that Wall will make his way to WF as well.
Nice--it makes a nice twist: the face of the Stranger is often covered. But in this case, the future Stranger can't see behind the tree face.
Fits also with her moment seeing the Stranger with the star eyes in that sept. And the way the "return" of her life is a kind of death. What is the Stranger if not death--living?
Thanks And forgive me if I'm going too meta, but I would argue that in this case, the Stranger's face is again covered (by Catelyn's own). The Stranger feels unnerved by every godswood -> with a heart tree -> with a face. So it makes sense she would be so unnerved by Jon - who is the face of the north -> of the remaining godswoods -> weirwood heart trees -> and the faces carved by the cotf. I think this explains why Ned's prayer as a young man was ineffective (if it was indeed about Robb and Jon).
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
The ravens alone give me reason to wonder. Dark wings, dark words... Wings drink the wind...and Words are wind. Jon Arryn is killed. Dark wings carry wind, and find Ned cleaning Gared's blood from off his sword beneath the heart tree. His first impulse is then to send dark wings carrying wind to his Brother on the Wall. Then, a black crow who flew down off that Wall will make his way to WF as well.
Even without the symmetry, we do have the idea of sacrifice and senseless killing in a coming land war.
Baelish and Lysa killing Arryn--Lysa following orders. Will and Royce killed--then Gared--killed on orders. Senseless. Hmmm. . . I need to play with this a bit in my head.
Thanks And forgive me if I'm going too meta, but I would argue that in this case, the Stranger's face is again covered (by Catelyn's own). The Stranger feels unnerved by every godswood -> with a heart tree -> with a face. So it makes sense she would be so unnerved by Jon - who is the face of the north -> of the remaining godswoods -> weirwood heart trees -> and the faces carved by the cotf. I think this explains why Ned's prayer as a young man was ineffective (if it was indeed about Robb and Jon).
Nice.
Would also suggest that Cat's searching for the wrong identity in Jon's face--she thinks she knows the father and the mother is the Stranger. But the father and mother are strangers to her. Meaning she can't decipher it. Can't see past what she's been "told" to look for.
So, the prayer before the heart tree--it was for understanding and love to be built with a lie. Can one lie before a heart tree and still gain one's prayer?
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.