This omen really confuses me. No Baratheon killed any Stark. Joffrey is NO Baratheon. It is all Lannister vs. Stark. Actually I think Cat did not read the omen correctly and played into it.
Huh--you may have gotten to the heart of the problem--misreading and overreacting to "signs." I will say that Robert is involved. That Ned's relationship with Robert drives his willingness to go south--where he gets dead.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
More like Sansa and Arya (Salty = spice?): we are in Tully realm now.
I definitely see Sansa as well as Cat herself somewhat in the description. Sansa is very much a Tully in her youth. Arya, however, in my opinion was always more Stark, more of the North.
It was definitely lost TO Catelyn, but I'm not sure that we can put the entire loss on her shoulders. These were Northern beliefs, Ned's beliefs. And unfortunately, Ned, himself was somewhat "Andalized" by his fostering with Jon Arryn.
Another awesome observation Not just Cat, Bran and Benjen do too. They keep referring to his eyes "seeing everything". Cat just does not like being watched.
Thanks for this! voice has been tying Jon to a weirwood tree for some time now. I liked the comparison, but it wasn't quite clicking for me. This statement just tied it all together for me and made it all click.
From early Cat chapters one feels like the North is a vast monotonous place, but it actually has more diversity than the south. They have different kind of wargs, and old tales, and vast wonders. Boltons, Umbers, Karstarks, Mormonts, Starks... How are they the same really?
They aren't. Might be similar to how different races have to fight the idea as another race as just "other" on a whole to be able to recognize the difference between each individual. To Catelyn, they and their culture are all "other." So much so that it makes it difficult for her to see the differences between them.
This omen really confuses me. No Baratheon killed any Stark. Joffrey is NO Baratheon. It is all Lannister vs. Stark. Actually I think Cat did not read the omen correctly and played into it.
I would also argue that Robert started Ned, and the Starks in general, on the path to their destruction just by seeking him out and taking Ned South with him.
But you're 100% right. Cat is describing Tully-flowers. I'd argue Arya springs from a different garden, but would agree this fits Sansa perfectly, particularly the younger Sansa.
Hmmm. . . so , by implication, the info re: why he hates the Lannisters might disturb her? I am pretty sure I understand why he didn't tell all the horror of Brandon and Rickard's deaths. But, if you are right, that means Melisandra is very likely right re: Lannister involvement in the mess that got Brandon dead: IE Lyanna.
Exactly. They certainly did something. And damn, I need to start making my ideas more memorable as coming from me, or maybe start fighting a bit harder for them. I've been saying that they were up to something since, well, quite a while back... Why the Lannister hate, Ned
In Martinlandia--humans can commune with the gods. With the ancestors. With the animals (now I have Doctor Dolittle in my head). But yes, Martin's using an ancient trope re: the godswood as liminal space.
It feels like the heart trees on their own, as a connection to the old gods are themselves liminal. Then take into account Winterfell's godswood in particular, also near the lichyard and likely above the crypts. Then again, an argument could be made that Winterfell itself is liminal with its spelled walls, crypts and ground water pumping through the castle.
Huh--you may have gotten to the heart of the problem--misreading and overreacting to "signs." I will say that Robert is involved. That Ned's relationship with Robert drives his willingness to go south--where he gets dead.
Although I do agree that an argument can be made for overreacting, especially looking at Cat, ultimately by leading him South, Robert started Ned down the path to his downfall.
Last Edit: Feb 15, 2016 4:04:54 GMT by Lady Dyanna
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
"It feels like the heart trees on their own, as a connection to the old gods are themselves liminal. Then take into account Winterfell's godswood in particular, also near the lichyard and likely above the crypts. Then again, an argument could be made that Winterfell itself is liminal with its spelled walls, crypts and ground water pumping through the castle."
Like Faerie, Winterfell is both on, in, and of the Land.
I definitely see Sansa as well as Cat herself somewhat in the description. Sansa is very much a Tully in her youth. Arya, however, in my opinion was always more Stark, more of the North.
voice said the same thing. I always viewed Arya as being a great morph of both her parents. She definitely goes by her mother's motto (Family, Duty, Honor) more than her father's (Honor). So, I include Arya in both families to the same extent, whereas Sansa seems to have started with more Tully than Stark.
It was definitely lost TO Catelyn, but I'm not sure that we can put the entire loss on her shoulders. These were Northern beliefs, Ned's beliefs. And unfortunately, Ned, himself was somewhat "Andalized" by his fostering with Jon Arryn.
I was thinking of the fact that Ned keeps to his Gods and seems to "get them", so if the kids don't, it has to come from someone other than Ned. But you are right, it wasn't a correct assessment. Ned should make an effort to educate his kids in his culture.
Thanks for this! voice has been tying Jon to a weirwood tree for some time now. I liked the comparison, but it wasn't quite clicking for me. This statement just tied it all together for me and made it all click.
It is such a good comparison though, the moment it clicks you see it everywhere. In Arya's first chapter, she sees Jon's quiet face as the pond in the God's wood.
They aren't. Might be similar to how different races have to fight the idea as another race as just "other" on a whole to be able to recognize the difference between each individual. To Catelyn, they and their culture are all "other." So much so that it makes it difficult for her to see the differences between them.
I would also argue that Robert started Ned, and the Starks in general, on the path to their destruction just by seeking him out and taking Ned South with him.
voice had a good description of it referring to Ilyn Payne as a Robert headsman rather than Robert (since the Stag himself was absent in the original omen sighting). That was good too.
Exactly. They certainly did something. And damn, I need to start making my ideas more memorable as coming from me, or maybe start fighting a bit harder for them. I've been saying that they were up to something since, well, quite a while back... Why the Lannister hate, Ned
It feels like the heart trees on their own, as a connection to the old gods are themselves liminal. Then take into account Winterfell's godswood in particular, also near the lichyard and likely above the crypts. Then again, an argument could be made that Winterfell itself is liminal with its spelled walls, crypts and ground water pumping through the castle.
Oh, yes, re: the heart trees, The connection to the old gods is also between the living and the dead.And Winterfell all of what you said AND on a crypt which forms a key part of its identity.
Like Faerie, Winterfell is both on, in, and of the Land.
YUP!!!
And to fit with both of your comments, pools of water are mirrors/fairy pools. Liminal as it gets (huh--is there a limit to the liminal nature of a liminal space? )
Although I do agree that an argument can be made for overreacting, especially looking at Cat, ultimately by leading him South, Robert started Ned down the path to his downfall.
And overreacting because, for all of his connections to the north and Winterfell, Ned's also tied to the south.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Edited, bc Dudes, I misspelled roll, as 'role'. Yet that's funny, the inversions and echos sort of ~are~ a 'group-think role'.
Which fits with the entire concept of the weirwoods. And connecting with the old gods--embracing the "group think."
While Cat's embraced the southern group-think.
Am now thinking of this scene as a van diagram. With Ned and Cat's love for each other and the children as their main, if only, cross point.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
SlyWren, Wait. Are you calling us all weirwoods now?
If you think you are looking into the past to see the future of the story...Looking for acorns & seeing if they grow... Or not. Using many eyes...you might be a weirwood!
SlyWren, Wait. Are you calling us all weirwoods now?
Yes--either that or the pesky squirrels running up and down on the tree (was just discussing this with sweetsunray on my Death to Dawn #2 thread). I swear, we all just need running links to each other's threads.
Or is this your way of saying you are out of weir wood paste and are looking for Jojen?
If you think you are looking into the past to see the future of the story...Looking for acorns & seeing if they grow... Or not. Using many eyes...you might be a weirwood!
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
voice: I was thinking about Jon being a "weirwood son" and remembered something. I had read somewhere (I think it was in one of the Heresy threads, but I couldn't find it again) where someone had mentioned tht in real world, plants that had blood-red leaves, tend to have blue blossoms. They theorized that the Blue Rose actually is the blossom from Weirwoods since we have never heard where they come from, just that they come with winter and we haven't seen winter yet. But anyways, do you think this is another nod to Lyanna/Jon connection? I just remembered this and though it is so cool that it goes with your idea.
voice: I was thinking about Jon being a "weirwood son" and remembered something. I had read somewhere (I think it was in one of the Heresy threads, but I couldn't find it again) where someone had mentioned tht in real world, plants that had blood-red leaves, tend to have blue blossoms. They theorized that the Blue Rose actually is the blossom from Weirwoods since we have never heard where they come from, just that they come with winter and we haven't seen winter yet. But anyways, do you think this is another nod to Lyanna/Jon connection? I just remembered this and though it is so cool that it goes with your idea.
It would be a nice fit, but blue winter roses are grown in Winterfell's glass gardens I believe, which would seem difficult if they are the blooms of weirwoods. That doesn't at all negate the possibility though. It's a very interesting idea in any case.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Okay--"cleansed yourself"--that's an interesting phrase. Does sacrifice/execution require a self-cleansing? Is that what we're seeing here?
We've got people bearing heavy curses. The son of Bael the Bard carries a curse for kinslaying until he's flayed.
So, a ritual cleansing after an execution/sacrifice--is it about the sacrifice? About the fact that all Northerners are kin? Something else?
Ned is repeating a ritual, but I don't think it is a cleansing of spirit. He is repeating an observed ritual just as he saw his father do it. He wasn't fostered until he was eight so he would have seen the "kings justice" and aftermath at least a few time. Rickard was probably repeating the ritual as well. Rickard may have had no idea why it was done either; we don't know when the north forgot. Wash the blood into the pool. The blood sacrifice to the weirwood, into the weirwood. The blood remembers, bones with marrow remember and when the blood goes into the tree it remembers.