“I should think a hundred knights, at the least, with all their retainers, and half again as many freeriders. Cersei and the children travel with them.”“Robert will keep an easy pace for their sakes,” he said. “It is just as well. That will give us more time to prepare.”“The queen’s brothers are also in the party,” she told him.
Ned grimaced at that. There was small love between him and the queen’s family, Catelyn knew. The Lannisters of Casterly Rock had come late to Robert’s cause, when victory was all but certain, and he had never forgiven them. “Well, if the price for Robert’s company is an infestation of Lannisters, so be it. It sounds as though Robert is bringing half his court.”“Where the king goes, the realm follows,” she said.
“It will be good to see the children. The youngest was still sucking at the Lannister woman’s teat the last time I saw him. He must be, what, five by now?”“Prince Tommen is seven,” she told him. “The same age as Bran. Please, Ned, guard your tongue. The Lannister woman is our queen, and her pride is said to grow with every passing year.”
Ned squeezed her hand. “There must be a feast, of course, with singers, and Robert will want to hunt. I shall send Jory south with an honor guard to meet them on the kingsroad and escort them back. Gods, how are we going to feed them all? On his way already, you said? Damn the man. Damn his royal hide.”
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
On his way already, you said? Damn the man. Damn his royal hide.”
Makes me think of sweetsunray's argument re: Ned's ability to curse people in the underworld. A judge, like Arya. He's damning Robert from the start. Not a good beginning.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
So is this the reason for the animosity? Something more? Given the original synopsis, this seems like a thin reason for Ned to loathe Lannisters.
Oh, I think that there's at least a bit more to it. Ned doesn't seem to like to share troubling information with Catelyn. For example the truth behind Brandon and Rickard's execution. ::dracarys::
Makes me think of sweetsunray's argument re: Ned's ability to curse people in the underworld. A judge, like Arya. He's damning Robert from the start. Not a good beginning.
And from the Winterfell Godswood. Another liminal space?
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
But she knew she would find her husband here tonight. Whenever he took a man’s life, afterward he would seek the quiet of the godswood.
This is really interesting. God's wood is NOT quiet: there is the wind, and the "heart tree" talks to Ned (which given Bran's situation right now is such a beautiful metaphor). Ned doesn't seek quiet in the God's wood, he seeks company of Gods older and wiser than him.
Never liked the wood of the old gods, never liked the north... grew to love Ned and of course loved her children... but she abandoned Winterfell and this damned godswood (and her kids) asap.
Oh, she damaged the children/godswood before she left. Osha was the one telling Bran that the wind was God's answer to him. We know Ned used to talk to the tree, so this connection was lost to and due to Catelyn.
Another awesome observation Not just Cat, Bran and Benjen do too. They keep referring to his eyes "seeing everything". Cat just does not like being watched.
The little coward! How dare this toddler fear a wolf!
No! that is one of my favorite lines by Ned. He doesn't say he shouldn't fear but that he should "face" his fears. We know from Bran that he will be there to help him face his difficult moments. This is great parenting. This is the moment I fell in Love with NEd
And why equate it with all of the North and not just the Starks?
Doesn't it show Catelyn's ignorance/indifference to the North and the Starks? From early Cat chapters one feels like the North is a vast monotonous place, but it actually has more diversity than the south. They have different kind of wargs, and old tales, and vast wonders. Boltons, Umbers, Karstarks, Mormonts, Starks... How are they the same really?
She really really has no song in her heart, so much wonder and all she has to offer is disdain. Compare this to Arya and BRan's reactions to new things.
Though with both Dany and Lyanna, the specificity of the sacrifice doesn't seem premeditated. Still, as Ygritte says, "the gods hate knislayers, even when they kill unknowing."
Such a grim notion. Did you mean Jon/Tyrion as Kinslayer or Dany?
So, Cat feels like a stranger in the godswood, but knows how to look for omens? An odd mix. . .
This omen really confuses me. No Baratheon killed any Stark. Joffrey is NO Baratheon. It is all Lannister vs. Stark. Actually I think Cat did not read the omen correctly and played into it.
This is really interesting. God's wood is NOT quiet: there is the wind, and the "heart tree" talks to Ned (which given Bran's situation right now is such a beautiful metaphor). Ned doesn't seek quiet in the God's wood, he seeks company of Gods older and wiser than him.
He does. And for a man who puts little faith in signs, he sure does seem fond of one carved in a tree.
More like Sansa and Arya (Salty = spice?): we are in Tully realm now.
Right you are. Whenever I hear of flower scents and clingy perfume, my mind shifts to Lyanna's fondness of flowers and that blue one filling the air with sweetness.
But you're 100% right. Cat is describing Tully-flowers. I'd argue Arya springs from a different garden, but would agree this fits Sansa perfectly, particularly the younger Sansa.
Oh, she damaged the children/godswood before she left. Osha was the one telling Bran that the wind was God's answer to him. We know Ned used to talk to the tree, so this connection was lost to and due to Catelyn.
Another awesome observation Not just Cat, Bran and Benjen do too. They keep referring to his eyes "seeing everything". Cat just does not like being watched.
She sure doesn't! Maybe that's why her heart turned to stone, she kept it out of Winterfell's circulatory system.
But as you can guess from my reply just before this one, Ned's treatment of Jon is quite special in this regard. We know that Ned the Father speaks softly of the Age of Heroes and the cotf... We know that Ned was wearing the face of Ned the Lord, and spoke with command, condemning the wolf pups in Bran I. Then Jon made his face change. Ned looked into Jon's face, and heard ancient truths.
The other men exchanged wary glances. And rather than "save face" and reaffirm his Lordly command, he began speaking softly again to Jon.
One more case of Jon as an incarnation of the Old Gods.
No! that is one of my favorite lines by Ned. He doesn't say he shouldn't fear but that he should "face" his fears. We know from Bran that he will be there to help him face his difficult moments. This is great parenting. This is the moment I fell in Love with NEd
Nah, I know. I was speaking more from Cat's POV there. Why, I have no idea. LOL
But yes, one must learn to face their fears in Ned Stark's book, as it will be the only time one can be brave.
This omen really confuses me. No Baratheon killed any Stark. Joffrey is NO Baratheon. It is all Lannister vs. Stark. Actually I think Cat did not read the omen correctly and played into it.
We disagree on this one. Joffrey is 100% Lannister, but Ser Ilyn is Robert Baratheon's creation. And, that creation put an antler through Ned's neck that would later be shattered into Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
one must learn to face their fears in Ned Stark's book, as it will be the only time one can be brave
It worked on Jon. Talking about the dreams in the other thread, Jon is limping and is specifically told he is not a Stark and keeps going forward in the middle of darkness. Dany's motto is: "If I look back, I'm lost".
I thought Ser Ilyn Payne was Tywin's. Wasn't he the one saying it was Tywin who really ruled? And Aerys had his tongue... removed... for it? Might remember wrong, though.
one must learn to face their fears in Ned Stark's book, as it will be the only time one can be brave
It worked on Jon. Talking about the dreams in the other thread, Jon is limping and is specifically told he is not a Stark and keeps going forward in the middle of darkness. Dany's motto is: "If I look back, I'm lost".
I thought Ser Ilyn Payne was Tywin's. Wasn't he the one saying it was Tywin who really ruled? And Aerys had his tongue... removed... for it? Might remember wrong, though.
Robert promoted Ilyn to the position of King's Justice.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I see, I thought he held the office since King Aerys. I finally got this omen with Stag and Direwolf
I do agree Ilyn feels like the Lion's creature, but at that point in the story, all lions are Robert's creatures.
In truth, I rarely agree with Catelyn's perspective and this is one of the rare instances I think she has the right of things. Her idea of the omen is born out, I think, in three passages:
1. AGOT Bran I
So deep in thought was he that he never heard the rest of the party until his father moved up to ride beside him. “Are you well, Bran?” he asked, not unkindly. “Yes, Father,” Bran told him. He looked up. Wrapped in his furs and leathers, mounted on his great warhorse, his lord father loomed over him like a giant. “Robb says the man died bravely, but Jon says he was afraid.” it?” “What do you think?” his father asked. Bran thought about it. “Can a man still be brave if he’s afraid?” “That is the only time a man can be brave,” his father told him. “Do you understand why I did “He was a wildling,” Bran said. “They carry off women and sell them to the Others.” His lord father smiled. “Old Nan has been telling you stories again. In truth, the man was an oathbreaker, a deserter from the Night’s Watch. No man is more dangerous. The deserter knows his life is forfeit if he is taken, so he will not flinch from any crime, no matter how vile. But you mistake me. The question was not why the man had to die, but why I must do it.” Bran had no answer for that. “King Robert has a headsman,” he said, uncertainly. “He does,” his father admitted. “As did the Targaryen kings before him. Yet our way is the older way. The blood of the First Men still flows in the veins of the Starks, and we hold to the belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man’s life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die. “One day, Bran, you will be Robb’s bannerman, holding a keep of your own for your brother and your king, and justice will fall to you. When that day comes, you must take no pleasure in the task, but neither must you look away. A ruler who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is.”
2. AGOT Bran III
He looked south, and saw the great blue-green rush of the Trident. He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.
3. A Feast for Crows - Jaime III
Payne seemed as comfortable in his silence as in his rusted ringmail and boiled leather. The clop of his gelding's hooves and the rattle of sword in scabbard whenever he shifted his seat were the only sounds he made. Though his pox-scarred face was grim and his eyes as cold as ice on a winter lake, Jaime sensed that he was glad he'd come. I gave the man a choice, he reminded himself. He could have refused me and remained King's Justice. Ser Ilyn's appointment had been a wedding gift from Robert Baratheon to the father of his bride, a sinecure to compensate Payne for the tongue he'd lost in the service of House Lannister. He made a splendid headsman. He had never botched an execution, and seldom required as much as a second stroke. And there was something about his silence that inspired terror. Seldom had a King's Justice seemed so well fitted for his office.
In the First, Ned looms like a giant having just carried out the King's Justice ("In the name of Robert Baratheon"...) while explaining the nature of the King's Justice to his son.
In the Second, Ilyn Payne is present at the Trident, inspiring Sansa's terror. Also, interestingly, Ned denies Ilyn his task (one that he takes so much pleasure in) calling him "a butcher", and insists on killing Lady himself.
In the Third, we find silent Ilyn in his rusty armor (stone) and hear of his prowess as headsman. A long and successful history of blood and terror and silence.
Notice that when Robert's Justice sneaks off Ned's head, the Stag is absent. So too is the Stag absent that killed the direwolf. Only the shattered antler remains.
Edit: Tagging you nanother because this is sort of the long version of my short reply to you and Shizett above.
Notice that when Robert's Justice sneaks off Ned's head, the Stag is absent. So too is the Stag absent that killed the direwolf. Only the shattered antler remains.
oooh, such a cool observation. Thanks for all the explanations
Notice that when Robert's Justice sneaks off Ned's head, the Stag is absent. So too is the Stag absent that killed the direwolf. Only the shattered antler remains.
oooh, such a cool observation. Thanks for all the explanations
Thanks for thinking they're cool! LOL
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Ned doesn't seem to like to share troubling information with Catelyn. For example the truth behind Brandon and Rickard's execution.
Hmmm. . . so , by implication, the info re: why he hates the Lannisters might disturb her? I am pretty sure I understand why he didn't tell all the horror of Brandon and Rickard's deaths. But, if you are right, that means Melisandra is very likely right re: Lannister involvement in the mess that got Brandon dead: IE Lyanna.
And from the Winterfell Godswood. Another liminal space?
YUP! Now I have "Into the Woods" in my head--but yes. Woods in all fairytales are liminal spaces. The space between human civilized spaces where anything can happen. Fairies and witches and all that have free play.
In Martinlandia--humans can commune with the gods. With the ancestors. With the animals (now I have Doctor Dolittle in my head). But yes, Martin's using an ancient trope re: the godswood as liminal space.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.