As much as I don't want this to be true, why am I thinking there's a SSM that confirms Syrio's death?
I have never seen one, but then, I have never looked for one on Syrio either. But if Syrio's real self is dead, that would still leave his face to be worn by a FM, perhaps. GRRM is sometimes crafty in his answers, a bit misleading. I will have to look for this information. The SSM's seem to have been cleaned up recently. Purged, is how I like to refer to them. I swear there used to be more information than there is now.
^^I KNOW there’s no “yes/no” confirmation of any of that. For years they debated if what Martin said is really a confirmation or not. It will never be. Martin was ridiculous to say “draw your own conclusion”. People WILL come to different conclusions on anything especially with no evidence! Just because it looks logical to you doesn’t mean it is. He can as a writer to pull a magic writing plot twist out of his ass any time he changes his mind and have Syrio defeated those dudes. He wasn’t First Sword for nothing. I mean is he not going to pull one with Ashara Dayne? Better no one answer that in the negative!
I’m totally convinced he died btw, simply because it’s easier to have a conclusion on it. But I get the ones who believe different.
“Don’t fight in the North, or the South. Fight every battle everywhere. Always, in your mind.”
He can as a writer to pull a magic writing plot twist out of his ass any time he changes his mind ..... He wasn’t First Sword for nothing.
right, and GRRM being First Word of the Morning, just like Arthur Dayne, becomes MIA from the story.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
The problem is why would a Braavosi sword master and a former First Sword be hanging out in KL? The interesting thing to note is that he was recommended by Vayne Poole, Jeyne's dad. I wonder why he was chosen or so highly recommended.
good questions and we know not why he is a 'former' First Sword; or do we? perhaps he was just retired.... or hired by some other noble family. He is just like Pate, he is the right man, in the right place, at the right time to serve the purpose of the FM (and GRRM).
Vayon picks him because as house Stark stewart it is his job to recruit staff. And being new to KL he would have had to rely on advice as to where to find local staff, so we are back to Varys or else to provide him with Syrio.
But if the plan was for Syrio/Jaquen to infiltrate the Starks, it just about worked:
GOT - Sansa 3
[Ned] You will sail as soon as I can find a proper ship, with Septa Mordane and a complement of guards … and yes, with Syrio Forel, if he agrees to enter my service
so one can imagine that joining Yoren's wagons via the black cells could have been plan B to stick with Arya.
and continue her training....
Last Edit: Sept 20, 2018 23:15:15 GMT by arrysfleas
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
Well, it would be interesting if the child that survived was Rhaenys and not Aegon, but GRRM in early SSM's makes it sounds like Rhaenys did indeed die, so I am probably just wasting a bit of time on this one. It's that damn Arianne quote, "Arianne crawled from the bed, weak as a kitten" that connects Arianne to Rhaenys who was said to be fond of kittens, especially her black Balarion, and the fact that Rhaenys was said to have been dragged from under Rhaegar's bed with Amory Lorch killed her. It's very possible this is just GRRM trolling a bit and I swallowed the hook completely!
The SSM is pretty convincing that she is dead. Still Aegon could still be alive and it I getting closer to Young Griff actually being him.
I did not remember this detail about Vayon Poole, but he was as fresh to KL just as Ned was, so perhaps that information was given to Poole on purpose, by someone who wanted/needed Syrio to be in Ned's household. That really doesn't narrow things down, since several people are plotters and have spies planted all around the Red Keep.
Maybe I am overthinking it but Vayon Poole doesn't sound very Westerosi to me.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
right, and GRRM being First Word of the Morning, just like Arthur Dayne, becomes MIA from the story.
This is waaaay to meta for me. Is this your way of telling me Martin dies before he finishes ASoIaF?! Is it because he metaphorically disappears from the story meaning the muse takes over?! DO THE CHARACTERS BECOME SELF AWARE AND THEY START MAKING THEIR OWN CHOICES?! DID THEY ALL WENT TO SHOGUN-WORLD?!?!?!?! Is the Man In Black a host and William’s programmers wrote his code? 🙊 (that one is actually still unclear, right?)
But if the plan was for Syrio/Jaquen to infiltrate the Starks, it just about worked:
GOT - Sansa 3
[Ned] You will sail as soon as I can find a proper ship, with Septa Mordane and a complement of guards … and yes, with Syrio Forel, if he agrees to enter my service
so one can imagine that joining Yoren's wagons via the black cells could have been plan B to stick with Arya.
But if his plan was to stick to the Stark's, or perhaps even get into Winterfell as Arya's tutor, then both plans are led astray. The thing about Jaqen and Arya at Harrenhal is that he doesn't seek her out. Although, I guess it could be argued that he got himself into Harrenhal in a bid to find Arya. He doesn't change his face, after all, allowing himself to be recognized by her, when he could have remained quite hidden behind a new face. He wanted her to recognize him. But, she certainly would have both recognized and trusted him with Syrio's face, and she could have no confirmation of Syrio's death, only suspicion. I could literally chase these idea's around in circles for days.
The SSM is pretty convincing that she is dead. Still Aegon could still be alive and it I getting closer to Young Griff actually being him.
I would agree about the SSM on Rhaenys. However, doesn't GRRM claim in an SSM that until it appears in the text of the books, then it's not set in stone. I think the story grows and changes and wriggles about all of the time in his head. One of the reason it kept growing bigger instead of reaching for it's conclusion.
I won't claim to be any expert on names in the story, but at least it doesn't sound like a First Man/northeren name...
I would agree that Vayon sounds a bit foreign, but I think Poole could be a First Man name. GRRM tell us in the World Book that First Men names were short and blunt and to the point. Poole reminds me of water, and we certainly have several pool's scattered around our story. Just at Winterfell we have the Black Pool and multiple hot pools. This can be said for north of the wall, also. Pools in caves, such as the one Jon and Ygritte pass time in. I even think of the rainbow pool in Baelor's Sept that was found with a head floating in it leading up to the Hands Tourney. Something about the name hint's to me about the "water" in our story, and perhaps the power of water.
However, as a name, it could just as likely be from the south, or even foreign. I don't think we ever get a physical description of Vayon Poole, but we know that Jeyne is dark haired and brown eyed, and her features are enough that people don't outright denounce her for not being a Stark.
If names are important, what can it mean that the steward of Winterfell has a last name that relates to water and pools in a castle that is noted for it's pool's. Does it mean anything? Perhaps nothing?
**Speaking of odd and a bit cracked pot. That line about the head in the pool at Baelor's Sept and Ned's lack of reaction to it has always struck me as very odd. Is a headless body ever discovered? What did this woman do to deserve having her head cut off? And why do I find it odd that Ned is a seeker of justice in this story who has no problems cutting people's heads off, and doesn't even blink about this random decapitated head?
"It's the Hand's tourney that's the cause of all the trouble, my lords," the Commander of the City Watch complained to the king's council.
"The king's tourney," Ned corrected, wincing. "I assure you, the Hand wants no part of it."
"Call it what you will, my lord. Knights have been arriving from all over the realm, and for every knight we get two freeriders, three craftsmen, six men-at-arms, a dozen merchants, two dozen whores, and more thieves than I dare guess.This cursed heat had half the city in a fever to start, and now with all these visitors … last night we had a drowning, a tavern riot, three knife fights, a rape, two fires, robberies beyond count, and a drunken horse race down the Street of the Sisters. The night before a woman's head was found in the Great Sept, floating in the rainbow pool. No one seems to know how it got there or who it belongs to."
"How dreadful," Varys said with a shudder.
Lord Renly Baratheon was less sympathetic. "If you cannot keep the king's peace, Janos, perhaps the City Watch should be commanded by someone who can."
Stout, jowly Janos Slynt puffed himself up like an angry frog, his bald pate reddening. "Aegon the Dragon himself could not keep the peace, Lord Renly. I need more men."
"How many?" Ned asked, leaning forward. As ever, Robert had not troubled himself to attend the council session, so it fell to his Hand to speak for him. AGOT-Eddard VI
Varys shudder's but his reaction is pretty vanilla, Renly can't give two shit's, Janos Slynt compares himself to Aegon the Conqueror himself and doesn't take a bit of responsibility for the chaos in the city, and Ned has no reaction at all but to ask how many more men could help keep the peace. Of course, there is some irony in Ned loosing his own head eventually at the Sept of Baelor, and Janos being decapitated himself, by Jon Snow, the bastard son of Eddard. Renly doesn't loose his head, but does die under strange circumstances. Does this link this odd head in the pool to Varys, or what, since he is the survivor? Littlefinger is also part of this scene, and so is Pycelle but they have no comment on these events. For some odd reason, I link it to Ned, perhaps just because he is the first person in the story that we see cut a person's head off.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
DO THE CHARACTERS BECOME SELF AWARE AND THEY START MAKING THEIR OWN CHOICES?!
love it!
some: Jaimie for one, sick of being a villain. Jon too, sick of being righteous gets involved with Ygritte. More?
just imagine the sequel possibilities: Dany gives her dragons to Tyrion and moves to Dorne to become an olive farmer? Tyrion uses the dragons to power central heating for the wildlings (he was good with plumbing in his father's mansion)....
Is the Man In Black a host and William’s programmers wrote his code? 🙊 (that one is actually still unclear, right?)
i'm afraid that whole comment is unclear...Williams code? .... java?
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
just imagine the sequel possibilities: Dany gives her dragons to Tyrion and moves to Dorne to become an olive farmer? Tyrion uses the dragons to power central heating for the wildlings (he was good with plumbing in his father's mansion)....
You mean a Lemon farmer.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
"So we pray. I want to plant my olive trees and see them fruit."
now that has to be a parentage hint; right?
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
I have also toyed with the idea that Varys planned for Jaqen to go with Ned to the Wall and perhaps whisk him away to Essos on the way? Somewhat similar to what he tried to do with Arya. But I couldn't come up with any reasonable way to explain how being caged with two freaks would help Jaqen in communicating with Ned on the road or even simply kidnapping him (or maybe fake kidnapping him), so that didn't lead anywhere. )))
You might be on to something with the connection to Ned. It does seem the the House of Black and White want's Arya, but perhaps they just wanted a Stark blooded person. So, when they couldn't get Ned, they went after the Stark that they could find and entice.
Another tinfoilish thought you have spawned for me is perhaps Jaqen was meant to take Ned's face on the journey north? Think about the power a faceless man could wield if he was wearing the face of Eddard Stark? Ned would have power, both in the north and at the wall. Immense power and would probably be respected and listened to! You got my wheels turning now...
In either scenario, it seems to me that Jaqen was caged with Rorge and Biter was just a coincidence. I always thought it interesting that two sociopath's like Rorge and Biter were not a threat to Jaqen in that caged wagon, but perhaps Jaqen is scarier that those two were willing to challenge?
Antler Men were only arrested in ACOK, so that cloth merchant must've been the Chief Gaoler at the time when Jaqen was in the black cells.
Of course Jaqen could just get into the cells the normal way - by committing a crime without anyone's help, but it's still hard to understand what sort of crime would land him there.
Gosh! This is very interesting. I have never made this connection with the old chief gaoler being an antler man. That is someone who might have wanted to sneak Ned out of the Black Cells, or at least had the power to do it. Word might have been out that Ned was in support of Stannis' claim! Nice catch!
To be back to the original conversation, timeline-wise the way for Syrio to be Jaqen is: - to be arrested during the coup and put in the same black cell and take over his face - to beat/flee from Meryn Trant and then to somehow find his way to the black cells via hidden tunnels and take over Jaqen's face But if Syrio was an FM who can take anyone's face, couldn't he take a face of, say, a gold cloak or any random person then? - Seems more productive than taking over a face of a prisoner.
I know there is much debate on whether Syrio and Jaqen are the same person. I am not convinced either way. But I do question Syrio's death. We didn't see it or a body, so it's open to speculation. If Syrio and Jaqen are the same faceless man, then it almost makes me think that Arya was the target. After all, we see no exchanges between Syrio and Ned, although GRRM has been a little to vague in explanations about how Ned came to find Syrio and hire him to work with Arya. It could be just a way to become part of Ned's household and have easy access to the Tower of the Hand or the Red Keep! It's a puzzle, for sure.
Great idea's!
I think Jaquen taking over Ned's face is a very interesting idea. Yet again, hindered by the cage. I do think that Rorge and Biter are also FM, but I only refer to Jaquen when I write 'cause he's the only one to actually be confirmed to be an FM. There's a number of factors like Jaquen claiming that he's the one who named Biter, but Rorge has supposedly known Biter from before the Black Cells, yet he keeps calling him Biter. The fact that they all later joined the Goat and all risen in the ranks. The fact that they were in the Black Cells together. And simply the fact that Jaquen chose to stay with them 'cause he can behave and he can get people on his side just fine, unlike Rorge and Biter who are just acting mad.
I think that maybe Varys has found out that Jaquen is an FM, imprisoned him and then got rid of him via Yoren? 'Cause there's just no way that whoever shipped off Jaquen via Yoren was on Jaquen's side. Yoren had a pick of the dungeons, meaning he could choose, and he certainly wouldn't choose people who were so intimidating and impossible to control that he'd have to keep them in cages. Means that somebody persuaded/bribed him to take them, and it's most likely the same person who bribed him to take Gendry and talked to him about Ned aka Varys.
So we have Jaquen, Rorge and Biter in the Black Cells with no access to King's Landing - something that Varys could arrange; and we have Jaquen, Rorge and Biter in a cage going out of King's Landing - something that Varys could arrange. The simplest explanation = the best explanation?
Why he didn't kill them? - Who knows, maybe there are repercussions from the house of B&W for killing their people? Maybe The House of B&W is part of Vary's plan and he doesn't want to have a conflict. There is a theory that FM are supporting Aegon, isn't there?
Personally I think Syrio is who he says he is. It'd be pretty awesome for him to be Jaquen, but I don't really buy that.
stdaga , i asked why we don't question Dany's birth and people get so defensive about her being the Mad King's kid is her croos to bear so i called markg171 for backup LOL
OMG! Dany's birth isn't even tinfoil anymore. After being asked about the lemon tree at least once by fans, George goes on to include two mentions of lemons being grown on Dorne and one mention of lemons not growing in Braavos in TWOW. It's clear that her memories are messed up.
stdaga , i asked why we don't question Dany's birth and people get so defensive about her being the Mad King's kid is her croos to bear so i called markg171 for backup LOL
Hahaha! Yup! Well, there is a very shaky house of cards built on Jon's birth being at the toj after the rebellion ended and Dany's birth being 8-9 moons later, and if that house of cards were to tremble and fall, then a whole lot of theories died an ugly death. People are very, very protective and defensive about this. I see it on the Westeros boards OFTEN!!!
Yes, markg171 is a great resource for Dany's backstory, or the discrepancies in it. I am sure he has also felt the burn when he questioned such "accepted" things such as the time and place of Dany's birth on Dragonstone nine months (or so) after the Sack!
I came to topple that house.
29:12 Dany was born posthumously 9 months after the battle of the Trident and the fall of King's Landing.
"no, Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts"
Which means that Jon was born at around the Trident. Which wouldn't give Ned any time to go from the Ruby Ford to King's Landing, settle the things there, go to Storm's End and lift the siege and make it all the way to the TOJ (where Lyanna wasn't even confirmed to have been) just in time for Jon to be born.
The problem is why would a Braavosi sword master and a former First Sword be hanging out in KL? The interesting thing to note is that he was recommended by Vayne Poole, Jeyne's dad. I wonder why he was chosen or so highly recommended.
Is Vayon Poole as the person who found Syrio based on this?
Three days later, at midday, her father’s steward Vayon Poole sent Arya to the Small Hall. The trestle tables had been dismantled and the benches shoved against the walls. The hall seemed empty, until an unfamiliar voice said, “You are late, boy.” A slight man with a bald head and a great beak of a nose stepped out of the shadows, holding a pair of slender wooden swords. “Tomorrow you will be here at midday.” He had an accent, the lilt of the Free Cities, Braavos perhaps, or Myr.
So I have a crazy crackpot theory. Prepare your tinfoil hats.
It all starts with this piece of text:
At the foot of the steps was a heavy door of oak and iron. Petyr Baelish lifted the crossbar and gestured Ned through. They stepped out into the ruddy glow of dusk, on a rocky bluff high above the river. "We're outside the castle," Ned said. "You are a hard man to fool, Stark," Littlefinger said with a smirk. "Was it the sun that gave it away, or the sky? Follow me. There are niches cut in the rock. Try not to fall to your death, Catelyn would never understand." With that, he was over the side of the cliff, descending as quick as a monkey.
Ned studied the rocky face of the bluff for a moment, then followed more slowly. The niches were there, as Littlefinger had promised, shallow cuts that would be invisible from below, unless you knew just where to look for them. The river was a long, dizzying distance below. Ned kept his face pressed to the rock and tried not to look down any more often than he had to.
When at last he reached the bottom, a narrow, muddy trail along the water's edge, Littlefinger was lazing against a rock and eating an apple. He was almost down to the core. "You are growing old and slow, Stark," he said, flipping the apple casually into the rushing water. "No matter, we ride the rest of the way." He had two horses waiting. Ned mounted up and trotted behind him, down the trail and into the city.
A Game of Thrones - Eddard IV
Ever since my first time reading I've been wondering about this moment and was expecting this Littlefinger's excellent physical shape to come back and perhaps play a role. Littlefinger lost miserably to Brandon. And where he lost in position in society, he has been gaining back with fervor. And talking to you guys here made me wonder... Would he not want to improve his swordsmanship as well? Not to become the second Arthur Dane of course, but rather to eradicate that weakness of his to a certain degree? He seems to be in an unusually good shape for someone who's not into swords and all.
So let's start with how would Ned go on about finding Arya a swordsmanship master. There's a need to keep the lessons hidden from the Lannisters. Just recently Arya walloped the living daylights out of Joffrey and Nymeria has mauled him. Discovering that Ned has her start lessons of swordsmanship would lead to a huge scandal that Ned is trying to avoid while he investigates the death of Jon Arryn.
This is the chapter before Ned discovers Needle where Littlefinger brings him to Cat and overall starts helping him out:
Littlefinger smiled. "Leave Lord Varys to me, sweet lady. If you will permit me a small obscenity—and where better for it than here—I hold the man's balls in the palm of my hand." He cupped his fingers, smiling. "Or would, if he were a man, or had any balls. You see, if the pie is opened, the birds begin to sing, and Varys would not like that. Were I you, I would worry more about the Lannisters and less about the eunuch." Ned did not need Littlefinger to tell him that. He was thinking back to the day Arya had been found, to the look on the queen's face when she said, We have a wolf, so soft and quiet. He was thinking of the boy Mycah, of Jon Arryn's sudden death, of Bran's fall, of old mad Aerys Targaryen dying on the floor of his throne room while his life's blood dried on a gilded blade. "My lady," he said, turning to Catelyn, "there is nothing more you can do here. I want you to return to Winterfell at once. If there was one assassin, there could be others. Whoever ordered Bran's death will learn soon enough that the boy still lives."
A Game of Thrones - Eddard IV
This is the chapter where Ned discovers Needle:
"I do not mean to frighten you, but neither will I lie to you. We have come to a dark dangerous place, child. This is not Winterfell. We have enemies who mean us ill. We cannot fight a war among ourselves. This willfulness of yours, the running off, the angry words, the disobedience … at home, these were only the summer games of a child. Here and now, with winter soon upon us, that is a different matter. It is time to begin growing up."
A Game of Thrones - Arya II
Now considering the secrecy issue, approaching the master-at-arms of the Red Keep Ser Aron Santagar whom Ned seems to never have met before would be pretty much impossible: 1. he is of unknown loyalties 2. should one come up to the Red Keep's master-at-arms and ask him to recommend another master at arms, it would surely make him ask questions such as why is he suddenly unsuitable to train somebody in the Red Keep and be generally not very forthcoming 3. it's just unreasonable to request him to keep this a secret from the Queen since he's officially serving her too
There's an option of having his men like Vayon Poole look for a suitable candidate, but then again, how does one guarantees secrecy in an unknown city?
And then there's a person who seems to even have Varys in the palm of his hand and who seems to be helping Ned, who also sees Lannisters as a threat and who also knows the city. Littlefinger.
Littlefinger hiring Syrio (who is exactly who he says he is in this theory - Syrio Forel, the former Fist Sword of Braavos) to secretly train him actually would explain what was Syrio doing in King's Landing in the first place. Littlefinger is small and slim and his dad is from Braavos - that fits the fighting style and the reason why he would chose Syrio perfectly. And actually, he sort of embodies Syrio's philosophy of:
Just so. Opening your eyes is all that is needing. The heart lies and the head plays tricks with us, but the eyes see true. Look with your eyes. Hear with your ears. Taste with your mouth. Smell with your nose. Feel with your skin. Then comes the thinking, afterward, and in that way knowing the truth.
A Game of Thrones - Arya IV
Numerous times in the books Littlefinger assess characters and situations and he seems to be correct a lot. It does seem like he's able to get rid of any bias and just take in facts as facts and see the situation and people clearly, is he not?
In reality, of course, Littlefinger physical shape is probably along the lines of Tryion's acrobatic skills and GRRM just didn't think much of how Ned found Syrio 'cause it's not important, but isn't this more fun?