1) Rhaegar. I know, I know, but hear me out . When I think pouty I think Rhaegar. So once the seed was planted... He once believed he was the chosen one, until later in life when he learned he was not. Instead, it was some child. Insulting! He may have been angry and jealous- after all, he was the perfect prince but nothing was going his way. His father was ruining the dynasty, his wife couldn't give him the third child he desperately wanted, and now it turned out he also wasn't the chosen one, a job he had been training for for most of his life?!? It's enough to turn anyone into Mordo.
Sort of an aside, but I think Aerys probably felt the same way, in as much as he was basically told (by Jaeherys) that his whole goal in life was to marry a sister he couldn't stand so that they'd have a child that would be more important than him. As we know, combined with this and various other trials, the Mad King eventually cracked.
Sort of an aside, but I think Aerys probably felt the same way, in as much as he was basically told (by Jaeherys) that his whole goal in life was to marry a sister he couldn't stand so that they'd have a child that would be more important than him. As we know, combined with this and various other trials, the Mad King eventually cracked.
Agreed. Aerys had good reason to be jealous of Rhaegar, and we know he openly didn't trust him. I'm not sure he would have been powerful enough to send him demons and disable his magical abilities, but we have so little info on this time period that anything's possible.
Something else just occurred to me. Speaking of sending demons... the one person who does this, literally, is of course... Stannis. He would be another candidate for Mordo, especially if Mel decides Jon is the true chosen one and stops "mentoring" Stannis. This would then make him the literal jealous ex-pupil of the Ancient One, who in this case would be MEL. We know that Mordo follows a R'hllor-like entity, so that fits too...
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
Sorry guys, I'm not ignoring you - I'm in month-end/year-end closing cycle at work and it's busy time for piggies.
But, some good ideas cropping up! And nice to see you around Maester Sam ! I'm digging the idea of Rhaegar being the jealous former pupil, worth exploring for sure.
No worries. I'll just continue churning out crackpots over here....
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
So, I've almost given up on the idea of treating this thread as a cohesive theory, and will probably use it as a dumping ground for interesting information or fun parallels instead. LOL There is just so. much. information.
Was researching a different topic that was a sidetrack from another topic that was a spinoff of a topic that I've already posted about, and ran across the little gem below. I was already looking into most of these characters in conjunction with the Strange arc, but this is a nice little synopsis that may be of interest.
Jennifer Kale – Adventure into Fear #11(1972). Jennifer was born into a large magic family and lived in the Florida swamp region. Though a normal human trying to live a normal human life, time and again she was drawn to magical battles. Befriended the Man-Thing: a large semi-intelligent creature that dwells in the Florida Everglades. Man-Thing, formerly Ted Sallis, is the sole guardian of the Nexus of All Realities located there. "[Ted Sallis] transformed into a swamp creature through a combination of his secret formula and magical forces extant in the area. Sallis' mind was apparently lost, although on rare occasions he could briefly return to consciousness within his monstrous form."
- So, Howland Reed meets Hodor!! - lol
Jennifer and her family were/are the keepers of the magical book The Tome of Zhered-Na (Adventures into Fear #15 1973). The Tome of Zhered-Na is named after the antediluvian sorceress who foretold the end of Atlantis. Zhered-Na would experience a vision of the future, a prophecy involving the sinking of Atlantis, a cataclysm striking the great nation. [This is known in the comics as The Cataclysm, FYI....captialized for effect just like another major ASOIAF we know.] She was a proficient white magic user and at one time was considered in line to be Earth's Sorcerer Supreme. Oh, and she has platinum blonde hair and blue eyes....go figure.
- -
Disturbed by her vision and prophecy and her unwillingness to retract her words, the Emperor of Atlantis Kamuu and his Queen Zartra would banish Zhered-Na from Atlantis. For speaking this truth, Zhered-Na was banished and set adrift upon the sea. While she floated, her god Valka whispered secrets to her about the world and the world of the future.
But finally, the meat of the bone....seriously, the coolest part of this segue.
The Tome of Zhered-Na is currently with Jennifer Kale. Though presumably less powerful than the Darkhold or the Book of the Vishanti [anyone remember those from Great Arc?], it is nonetheless powerful enough to strike awe into the Sorcerer Supreme Doctor Strange and was sealed so only a member of the Kale lineage could access it, and only then assisted by a representative of divinity and a representative of the underworld.
- OK, so this artifact is pretty stout if Dr. Strange gets the willies over it. That bolded part, though....what. the. holy. fuck. Did you see that? I'll throw it out again:
A powerful book of ancient spells can be opened and all its magics released into the world, but only by a Kale witch descended from one IllyanaKale, and that descendant can only open it with two godly escorts, one from heaven and one from hell. Ice, Fire, and whatever is in between. There must always be a Stark in Winterfell. THREE HEADS HAS THE DRAGON, PEOPLE.
I typed that out late last night, so it was a bit rushed and may not make sense. Here are my thoughts on it:
First, GRRM is blending characters & arcs from Marvel…he’s pulling bits and pieces from the Silver Age and rolling it all together. My advice is to pay less attention to specifics and focus on how the story is rolling out.
That being said, I think that Jon is also going to play the role of Jennifer Kale.
Basically, the Starks – with their First Men origin, crossing from Essos in wayback days – became the keepers of ‘something’ when they fled Essos. Scrolls, magical knowledge, whatever…I dunno. I think that whatever that ‘something’ is, it might be tied to the ancient Valyrians or proto-Valyrians (I’ll leave it up to the LmLs of the world to elaborate on that point). Also, whatever the ‘something’ is, the wardenship of it is passed down through a specific lineage – now, what I haven’t settled on for the Starks is whether it is the eldest son (King in the North/Lord of Winterfell), “Brandon Starks” only, or something specific to a female line.
That last one is relevant for the “Illyana Kale”/”Lyanna Stark” parallel, and ties in with Bran Vras’ Winterfell Huis Clois theory (nice discussion on Jon’s parentage being important through the maternal line – I believe it even ties back to a Stark coven of witches). If Jon Snow is in fact Lyanna’s son, he is the only descendant through that female line…meaning Jon has the magic gene to be the warden of whatever the hell is squirrelled away in Winterfell/the North.
However….GRRM likes to turn things around, and we know that Lyanna’s wolf blood got her killed. I was intrigued by the plot point of Jennifer Kale’s brother futzing with the sacred tome – he wasn’t supposed to touch it, and she had to kill him for it.
Enter Rhaegar with his prophecy and three heads of the dragon. Following the comic arc, there are some possible options here: 1) Rhaegar knew he needed a male descendant through the female Stark line, and decided to make his own…hence the kidnapping and rape. 2) Lyanna was not actually the “keeper” - her brother Brandon was. But, let’s say that a certain prince who might be looking for a certain person who could access certain scrolls/knowledge/etc tried to DECEIVE a certain Stark into thinking that she was. Lyanna, the wolf girl who always wanted to hang with her brothers but never could, may have TRIED to help the Prince of Dragonstone - but since she didn’t have the right security level, she paid for it with her life…perhaps at the hand of her own brother Ned Stark. (Remember his guilt, his shame, his PTSD) 3) Some combination of the above.
Again, back to SlyWren, #2 could easily parallel the idea of Sansa unwittingly setting off a chain of events by going to Cersei with Ned’s plans…she was looking out for herself and thinking only of her own interests, and had no idea that consequences would be so disastrous and result in war/death of her family. If Lyanna saw her chance to be The Stark in Winterfell (“the woman is important too!”) after being ‘tricked’ by the Bard, and acted accordingly by sticking her wet wolf nose where it didn’t belong, the consequences certainly follow what we see for Sansa.
On the other hand, if Jon is Lyanna’s son and it’s all about the bloodline, then “Promise Me” makes sense, as does Rhaegar’s HotU statement about Aegon’s “his is the song of Ice and Fire” and needing another head. Jon would have served some kind of purpose for unlocking the secret in Winterfell/the North – the question remains though: WHICH purpose? Was he the medium a la Jennifer Kale, or was he true Ice?
Back to Topaz/Val – Val’s story is interesting. I’m pretty sure that she has been in cahoots with Mance, Mance serving as the ‘sorcerer’ that Topaz was raised by and parted ways with due to her relationship with the Werewolf. I do not for a single second believe that Val and Dalla are “sisters” in the genetic sense…they are instead coven sisters, and Mance is trying to create a bloodline PtwP of his own. I haven’t stumbled on a proper Mance arc yet in the comics, but am insanely curious to know what GRRM is pulling from for him. Will get there though.
Ah, I see now that I allowed the "Ill" sidetrack me into reading Illyrio and missed the Lyanna part. This picture is getting clearer. I can see Jon as the Jennifer Kale descendant too, but it seems a little unbelievable for me that she had to kill Brandon, or Ned killed her. Although, I guess I can see how Lyanna could have faked her kidnapping in order to get Brandon killed, but where did she hide? The crypts?
Glass gardens, baby! Food, drink, a castle empty save for the most trusted servants (Old Nan, Hodor), and an impressive collection of blue winter roses.
Ah, I see now that I allowed the "Ill" sidetrack me into reading Illyrio and missed the Lyanna part. This picture is getting clearer. I can see Jon as the Jennifer Kale descendant too, but it seems a little unbelievable for me that she had to kill Brandon, or Ned killed her. Although, I guess I can see how Lyanna could have faked her kidnapping in order to get Brandon killed, but where did she hide? The crypts?
Glass gardens, baby! Food, drink, a castle empty save for the most trusted servants (Old Nan, Hodor), and an impressive collection of blue winter roses.
Sookie sookie its getting real up in here.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
Post by whitewolfstark on Jan 16, 2016 20:42:33 GMT
I think this video has a great argument to keep in mind that we as readers should keep in mind when looking for influences on Martin's work. We need to be able to determine if he's homaging it or ripping it off, and maintain in our minds what the difference is: